A Question for D.O.s going into allopathic match

[allendo]

Ok I have a question regarding the whole match thing. I'm planning on trying to go allo with EM in the future. So how do I work the allo and osteo match? I assume I dont rank the osteo programs so I don't get pulled from the allo match? What happens if you don't match allo, can you scramble in the allo match or run back into the osteo match and try to land EM there?

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[Ponte-Claret]

AFAIK, you can't go back and scramble into the osteopathic residecies because they would have already been filled a month before. The scramble is usually over in one day. And besides, as a PD, would you want someone in your residency that only looks at you as a backup for a worst-case scenario? I know its a weird system, but this is the bind that DO students are in when in comes to the match. Hence the push for a combined match.



On another topic, Does anybody NOT want to go into Emergency Medicine? I swear, it seems at least 75% of my class are EMTs and want to do EM. It also seems that every freakin interviewee I talked to was hellbent on going EM. If people hold through with this preference, in 4 or 5 yeaars EM is going to be the new Optho and Derm. (And thus, us DO's won't even have to worry about the allopathic match b/c it will essentially be closed to us)

 

[futuredo32]

Actually, in one of those free magazines they send to D.O. students, it looked like A LOT of residencies went unfilled after the match. Based on that I would think that one could find an osteopathic residency/internship after the match. However, this is based only on reading that one article, so it's just a guess.

 

[DrMom]

Actually, in one of those free magazines they send to D.O. students, it looked like A LOT of residencies went unfilled after the match. Based on that I would think that one could find an osteopathic residency/internship after the match. However, this is based only on reading that one article, so it's just a guess.

But, as was mentioned before, the Osteo match is a month before the Allo match so those spots are often filled by the time someone finds out they didn't match Allo.

 

[TomC727]

Just talking to a lot of EM residents about the popularity of EM, a lot of people start med school saying they want to do EM and then once they do a rotation through it, they can't handle it and change their mind. EM is a very unique specialty that not all people can handle/make it their career.

 

[VentdependenT]

You can always scramble into an osteopathic intern year if allo match doesn't work out. My buddy in my TY program now was offered an osteo EM spot here in Chicago this year. Things can work out. Just go through the Allo match and take the USMLE.

 

[allendo]

Ok I have another question?? If I do an osteopathic residency do I have to do the rotating year?? Or will a residency accept me without it??

 

[PublicEnemy]

what if you'd like to match osteo PGY-1, but you want to match PGY-2 and beyond in an allo program? for example, that would be pretty typical if you wanted to do EM, anesthesiology, radiology, gen surgery, or optho. (programs that start PGY-2 and you gotta find your own PGY-1)

is it possible to just lockup a TRI in the AOA match and stay alive for the NRMP for PGY-2 and beyond? is that how people normally do it? or do you automatically get pulled from NRMP for matching anything in AOA? or do people just apply allo, get into anesthesiology or something like that then scramble back and find a AOA TRI that has space or a dually accredited spot? how does this all work? vent what did you and others do?

 

[VentdependenT]

what if you'd like to match osteo PGY-1, but you want to match PGY-2 and beyond in an allo program? for example, that would be pretty typical if you wanted to do EM, anesthesiology, radiology, gen surgery, or optho. (programs that start PGY-2 and you gotta find your own PGY-1)

is it possible to just lockup a TRI in the AOA match and stay alive for the NRMP for PGY-2 and beyond? is that how people normally do it? or do you automatically get pulled from NRMP for matching anything in AOA? or do people just apply allo, get into anesthesiology or something like that then scramble back and find a AOA TRI that has space or a dually accredited spot? how does this all work? vent what did you and others do?

I went through Osteomatch for intern year AND through the Allomatch for my anesthesiology residency. I don't have a dual accredited TY but it doesn't matter. Allo programs unversially (as far as I know) accept the osteo TY year as a prelim year.

 

[VentdependenT]

Ok I have another question?? If I do an osteopathic residency do I have to do the rotating year?? Or will a residency accept me without it??

Ask the individual programs.

 

[PublicEnemy]

I went through Osteomatch for intern year AND through the Allomatch for my anesthesiology residency. I don't have a dual accredited TY but it doesn't matter. Allo programs unversially (as far as I know) accept the osteo TY year as a prelim year.

cool, that sounds reasonable, especially for anesth, EM, gen. surg, rads, or ophtho. but i guess it prolly gets trickier balancing how to approach both matches if you're interested in any of the direct programs, like ortho or something like that.

so is it common for people to match their intern spot in osteomatch and not get what they want in allomatch? what happens to these people? at least they have 1 year figured out, can they just go through both matches again next year? i mean before giving up on what they originally wanted and picking something or some place less competetive.

thanks for the repsonses, really appreciate it, just trying to get a feel for how this all works.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Ok I have a question regarding the whole match thing. I'm planning on trying to go allo with EM in the future. So how do I work the allo and osteo match? I assume I dont rank the osteo programs so I don't get pulled from the allo match? What happens if you don't match allo, can you scramble in the allo match or run back into the osteo match and try to land EM there?

I plan on ranking one program in the AOA match, which is my top choice. If I don't get it, then I'll risk it with the ACGME match by applying to as many places as possible. My number one rationale is geography.

 

[DrMom]

I plan on ranking one program in the AOA match, which is my top choice. If I don't get it, then I'll risk it with the ACGME match by applying to as many places as possible. My number one rationale is geography.

This is precisely what I'm going to do.

 

[docbill]

This is precisely what I'm going to do.

Well I am not going to rank any AOA residencies. Going directly to ACGME or joing AOA/ACGME.

REASON: If one plans to practice in Canada, ACGME residency is highly recommended. AOA will make it almost imposible.

 

[community]

Allendo,
I have a number of friends who match in EM in an osteo program. Keep in mind that there are EM programs in osteo as well. If you do plan to match in an allo program, you should contact programs individually to see what they prefer. You may not really need to take to USMLE. I did take it and feel it was a waste of my time and money, especially my time!!!!

 

[hermione]

Okay, here is another question along the same lines. Specifically for anesthesia, since thats the only one I really know about. Aren't some programs (allo, I mean) 4 years with the trans year built in? And some are only three. So...if you match into a DO intership year would you cut yourself out of the four year anesthesia programs? And if so, if you skip the DO match to prevent this from happening but you still match into a three year anesthesia program, do you then have to scramble to find a DO internship year? That seems risky, either way. Or am I missing something all together?? (And also if you do a four year program, that would then not satisfy the AOA requirements for the internship year, is this correct?) What are the odds of a combined match for next year, is this totally out of the question??

 

[fuegorama]

Okay, here is another question along the same lines. Specifically for anesthesia, since thats the only one I really know about. Aren't some programs (allo, I mean) 4 years with the trans year built in? And some are only three. So...if you match into a DO intership year would you cut yourself out of the four year anesthesia programs? And if so, if you skip the DO match to prevent this from happening but you still match into a three year anesthesia program, do you then have to scramble to find a DO internship year? That seems risky, either way. Or am I missing something all together?? (And also if you do a four year program, that would then not satisfy the AOA requirements for the internship year, is this correct?) What are the odds of a combined match for next year, is this totally out of the question??

To piggyback on this question-
Is there a funding issue with doing an AOA TRI then doing a 4 year allo. residency?
At the misinformed rumor hall the other day I heard some folks talking about the possibility of matching for a TRI, taking it, then matching into an allo. residency but being unfunded for one of the years.
Is this a crock?
Is there any info. anyone can lend?
Thanks-
F

 

[Sugar72]

Okay, here is another question along the same lines. Specifically for anesthesia, since thats the only one I really know about. Aren't some programs (allo, I mean) 4 years with the trans year built in? And some are only three. So...if you match into a DO intership year would you cut yourself out of the four year anesthesia programs? And if so, if you skip the DO match to prevent this from happening but you still match into a three year anesthesia program, do you then have to scramble to find a DO internship year? That seems risky, either way. Or am I missing something all together?? (And also if you do a four year program, that would then not satisfy the AOA requirements for the internship year, is this correct?) What are the odds of a combined match for next year, is this totally out of the question??

If you decide not to do an AOA rotating internship it only takes a little bit of paperwork for your PGY 1 year to qualify as a rotating internship - whether it is TY or an included categorical prelim year of your 4 year anesthesiology program. It is a small hoop to jump through. We had a speaker at my school (AZCOM) a couple of years ago that told us that applications to count allopathic TY's and categorical prelims are almost always approved because of the impossibility (number-wise)of every DO graduate being able to do an AOA rotating internship. There is a website which lists the requirements for approval (so many months of this, so many of that). It's been a while since I looked all of this stuff up so I can't recall the website right now - you guys have probably run across it though - PM me if you want it and I will figure out where it was.

As for the rumor regarding taking an unfunded spot. I think that could be true - but I am not 100% sure. I know that programs are approved for a certain number of spots per accreditation, and sometimes not all of those spots are funded for a variety of reasons. Theoretically, I suppose a program could take you if you don't want to get paid. I think I might have even read something about that kind of situation on one of the Tulane resident program websites - Like I said...can't really pull up any concrete evidence.

 

[OSUdoc08]

If you decide not to do an AOA rotating internship it only takes a little bit of paperwork for your PGY 1 year to qualify as a rotating internship - whether it is TY or an included categorical prelim year of your 4 year anesthesiology program. It is a small hoop to jump through. We had a speaker at my school (AZCOM) a couple of years ago that told us that applications to count allopathic TY's and categorical prelims are almost always approved because of the impossibility (number-wise)of every DO graduate being able to do an AOA rotating internship. There is a website which lists the requirements for approval (so many months of this, so many of that). It's been a while since I looked all of this stuff up so I can't recall the website right now - you guys have probably run across it though - PM me if you want it and I will figure out where it was.

As for the rumor regarding taking an unfunded spot. I think that could be true - but I am not 100% sure. I know that programs are approved for a certain number of spots per accreditation, and sometimes not all of those spots are funded for a variety of reasons. Theoretically, I suppose a program could take you if you don't want to get paid. I think I might have even read something about that kind of situation on one of the Tulane resident program websites - Like I said...can't really pull up any concrete evidence.

In order to get the ACGME PGY-1 year approved as an internship, you must be able to demonstrate the inability to enter an AOA-internship, be it geographic limitations, or otherwise, and they do not always get approved.

 

[Idiopathic]

In order to get the ACGME PGY-1 year approved as an internship, you must be able to demonstrate the inability to enter an AOA-internship, be it geographic limitations, or otherwise, and they do not always get approved.

This is very misleading and not true. The AOA will approve most ACGME PGY-1 years if you come back to do an AOA residency. Also, they will approve ACGME residency programs if other stipulations are met. I dont believe that it is as difficult a process as some would have you believe.

 

[DrMom]

From what I've been told by some folks at the AOA, only a handful of applications have been turned down (out of hundreds). These were almost all people who had matched at AOA programs and then turned them down to attend ACGME programs. Basically, don't dis the AOA & then ask them to approve your internship.

 

[PublicEnemy]

cool, that sounds reasonable, especially for anesth, EM, gen. surg, rads, or ophtho. but i guess it prolly gets trickier balancing how to approach both matches if you're interested in any of the direct programs, like ortho or something like that.

so is it common for people to match their intern spot in osteomatch and not get what they want in allomatch? what happens to these people? at least they have 1 year figured out, can they just go through both matches again next year? i mean before giving up on what they originally wanted and picking something or some place less competetive.

thanks for the repsonses, really appreciate it, just trying to get a feel for how this all works.

can anyone answer my question from before?

 

[medicine1]

what if you'd like to match osteo PGY-1, but you want to match PGY-2 and beyond in an allo program? for example, that would be pretty typical if you wanted to do EM, anesthesiology, radiology, gen surgery, or optho. (programs that start PGY-2 and you gotta find your own PGY-1)

is it possible to just lockup a TRI in the AOA match and stay alive for the NRMP for PGY-2 and beyond? is that how people normally do it? or do you automatically get pulled from NRMP for matching anything in AOA? or do people just apply allo, get into anesthesiology or something like that then scramble back and find a AOA TRI that has space or a dually accredited spot? how does this all work? vent what did you and others do?

The DO Internship is a one year contract only. Of course you can go on to an (PGY2) allopathic residency program.

 

[OSUdoc08]

The DO Internship is a one year contract only. Of course you can go on to an (PGY2) allopathic residency program.

No, actually most allopathic residency programs require completion of the entire program starting with PGY-1. It would not be likely that a Traditional Internship would be accepted in lieu of that first year of residency. In fact, it is not common for people to enter residency in the middle years of the program.

Perhaps a Specialty-Emphasis internship would be accepted, but this would not be common either.

 

[medicine1]

There are both MD and DO internships that are only a year long. Of course you can apply for an MD or a DO (PGY2) residency program. Many programs including derm., urology, ENT, etc. are PGY2 programs.

 

[OSUdoc08]

There are both MD and DO internships that are only a year long. Of course you can apply for an MD or a DO (PGY2) residency program. Many programs including derm., urology, ENT, etc. are PGY2 programs.

ACGME no longer has internships, although it is true that some programs incorporate them into the program. These are all linked, however, and it would be difficult to slide in for the second year.

Also, this extra year is only true for the above mentioned specialties. It would not hold true for EM, IM, Peds, FM, among many others.

 

[medicine1]

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The goal of the Transitional Year Residency Program at St. Luke’s Hospital & Health Network is to provide an educational program with academic and clinical training in the basic principles of patient care for hospitalized and ambulatory patients. Upon completion, the transitional year resident will have a fundamental knowledge of preventative medicine and health maintenance and an appreciation of common disease entities and their evaluation and treatment.

This program is fully accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME). The majority of our trainees who chose this year are seeking a preparatory year before entering other residency training. Others are looking for a broad-based clinical year to help them decide which field of medicine they would like to pursue.

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[futuredo32]

I find this really confusing. I live in one of the five states where you have do an internship year. I thought that some allopathic residency programs would modify their internship year to fit the requirements of the osteopathic internship year if you got an AOA waiver. Is this not correct if not all allopathic residencies have an internship/transitional year?

 

[PublicEnemy]

I find this really confusing. I live in one of the five states where you have do an internship year. I thought that some allopathic residency programs would modify their internship year to fit the requirements of the osteopathic internship year if you got an AOA waiver. Is this not correct if not all allopathic residencies have an internship/transitional year?

yeah, based on what vent said, just about every allo residency will accept the AOA TY for PGY1. a lot of allo residency programs match for PGY2 and beyond. many allo students still do an internship or a categorical prelim. anesthesia is a good example, most people match for PGY2, many allo students would prolly do a categorical surgery prelim for their PGY1, but osteo students can get their AOA TRI out of the way instead. ophtho in the SF match is the same way. for the most part those programs that start PGY2 don't even care where or what you're doing the prelim year as long as its something legit.

of course there are some programs out there that let you start PGY1 or prefer you do your prelim year at their site. a la these are "combined programs". its my observation though that most of the programs are not designed like this. at least for these types of programs (anesthesia, gen. surg, ophtho, etc.).

this is probably where people can get into some trouble with the AOA. when they already have matched an AOA TRI, but also end up matching allo for something somewhere else that would let them or even want them to do their PGY1 on site as well. based on what dr.mom said, this is when the AOA bites back and won't dually approve the allo residency program as a waiver for the TRI, since these people will have technically snubbed the AOA.

 

[OSUdoc08]

yeah, based on what vent said, just about every allo residency will accept the AOA TY for PGY1. a lot of allo residency programs match for PGY2 and beyond. many allo students still do an internship or a categorical prelim. anesthesia is a good example, most people match for PGY2, many allo students would prolly do a categorical surgery prelim for their PGY1, but osteo students can get their AOA TRI out of the way instead. ophtho in the SF match is the same way. for the most part those programs that start PGY2 don't even care where or what you're doing the prelim year as long as its something legit.

of course there are some programs out there that let you start PGY1 or prefer you do your prelim year at their site. a la these are "combined programs". its my observation though that most of the programs are not designed like this. at least for these types of programs (anesthesia, gen. surg, ophtho, etc.).

this is probably where people can get into some trouble with the AOA. when they already have matched an AOA TRI, but also end up matching allo for something somewhere else that would let them or even want them to do their PGY1 on site as well. based on what dr.mom said, this is when the AOA bites back and won't dually approve the allo residency program as a waiver for the TRI, since these people will have technically snubbed the AOA.

This is only true for residencies that have internships built in, such as ENT, neurology, orthopedic surgery, etc.

This would not work for ACGME residencies that do not have internship years built in, such as EM, IM, PEDS, FP, and others.....

It is possible to get the PGY-1 year counted anyway if you can demonstrate that for some reason you were unable to complete an internship year, however, these are not always approved.

It would not be possible, however to do a transitional year and them jump into the PGY-2 of one of those residencies that don't have internship years built in, as mentioned above. It is possible, however to complete the internship year and then start as a PGY-1 at those ACGME programs.

 

[PublicEnemy]

right, exactly. of course, the TRI won't replace a year in some of the shorter programs that don't have the internship built in.

the AOA programs for the ones you mentioned have that extra year factored in don't they? AOA equivalents of FP, IM, PEDS etc, they're made to be a year longer and cover your AOA requirement?

 

[OSUdoc08]

right, exactly. of course, the TRI won't replace a year in some of the shorter programs that don't have the internship built in.

the AOA programs for the ones you mentioned have that extra year factored in don't they? AOA equivalents of FP, IM, PEDS etc, they're made to be a year longer and cover your AOA requirement?

There is a seperate internship year that must be completed for those residencies. These are only "factored in" in programs where the internship is "linked" to the residency. This is only done at some programs.

The programs that do not have the linked residency will always begin at PGY-2.