A Question For Those Who Apply To Many Top Schools w/o Ultra High Stats

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Every cycle I hear one too many people with decent but not ultra high stats (talking 3.6/512) and cookie cutter EC's apply to very high schools (Perleman/Harvard type) saying "Well, it couldn't hurt!"

But I just wanted to ask, are you sure it couldn't hurt?

I understand that you have good intentions. You want to go into medicine to help others, have been very successful in school, and want to achieve your dream school. That's totally fine.

But there's a difference between applying to a couple reaches, and applying to the entire top 15 list.

Look at it this way: With a 512/3.6, your stats will be neutral for these very high schools. Your experiences will be what get you in. And that means you need to spend several hours for EACH secondary. The problem is, this distracts from all of your other secondaries for the schools where your stats are exactly on par with and give you a great chance of admission.
 
LoveBeingHuman:) said:
Every cycle I hear one too many people with decent but not ultra high stats (talking 3.6/512) and cookie cutter EC's apply to very high schools (Perleman/Harvard type) saying "Well, it couldn't hurt!"

But I just wanted to ask, are you sure it couldn't hurt?

I understand that you have good intentions. You want to go into medicine to help others, have been very successful in school, and want to achieve your dream school. That's totally fine.

But there's a difference between applying to a couple reaches, and applying to the entire top 15 list.

Look at it this way: With a 512/3.6, your stats will be neutral for these very high schools. Your experiences will be what get you in. And that means you need to spend several hours for EACH secondary. The problem is, this distracts from all of your other secondaries for the schools where your stats are exactly on par with and give you a great chance of admission.
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You assume that secondaries aren't already prewritten, edited, or polished by the time kids receive the prompts. Assuming you don't apply to 30+ schools and assuming that you take plenty of time to write (or pre-write) quality secondaries, the only thing that hurts when shooting for the T15 is your wallet (the tax on the hopelessly naive). Once you have quality material that you want to talk about, you don't have to spent several hours for each. Some take more than others, but once you got your groove it shouldn't be that difficult.
 
DrHart said:
You assume that secondaries aren't already prewritten, edited, or polished by the time kids receive the prompts. Assuming you don't apply to 30+ schools and assuming that you take plenty of time to write (or pre-write) quality secondaries, the only thing that hurts when shooting for the T15 is your wallet (the tax on the hopelessly naive). Once you have quality material that you want to talk about, you don't have to spent several hours for each. Some take more than others, but once you got your groove it shouldn't be that difficult.
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Completely Agree. That being said, I'd rather tailor my post to those specific group of students that apply to medical schools around this time without having their secondaries completed. There's quite a few, believe me.

I was moreso getting at the fact that if the effort starts to thin out, then you're damaging your chances of getting into the schools you had a good chance of getting into.
 
LoveBeingHuman:) said:
Look at it this way: With a 512/3.6, your stats will be well below average for these very high schools. Your experiences will be what get you in. And that means you need to spend several hours for EACH secondary. The problem is, this distracts from all of your other secondaries for the schools where your stats are exactly on par with and give you a great chance of admission.
Click to expand...

fixed that for you
 
LoveBeingHuman:) said:
Completely Agree. That being said, I'd rather tailor my post to those specific group of students that apply to medical schools around this time without having their secondaries completed. There's quite a few, believe me.

I was moreso getting at the fact that if the effort starts to thin out, then you're damaging your chances of getting into the schools you had a good chance of getting into.
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Totally agree. I'm only at 8 submitted secondaries (of 20 total) and I'm already exhausted with writing about myself >.<
Effort and quality of writing start to go downhill after 15 or 20 so people should definitely consider writing (or pre-writing) their top choice (and most realistic) schools first.
 
With those stats, at least as ORM, I don't think your secondary essays being edited a few extra times are nearly that significant...it's a donation either way.

Also, a bunch of the tip top schools actually have super light secondaries. IIRC Harvard UCSF and WashU only have optional essay and Penn had easy short ones like "Why Penn?" . If the money isn't an issue I really don't think there's a huge opportunity cost involved if your stats are at least near their usual range
 
Doesn't Goro say something like " 3.6+ and 517+" is good enough for pretty much anywhere? So if this person had a higher MCAT score , something like " 3.6/519" would applying to , say , 7 or 8 T20 schools be reasonable, in your opinion? Especially if they have an UW trend in the GPA? ( Like, 3.6 for all four years together , but 3.88 the last two years, or something like that.).
Also, what do you define as cookie cutter? Thousands of hours of volunteering or multiple research pubs are actually not as common as SDN will have you believe.
I'm not disagreeing with you, merely asking you to expand your point.
 
mwsapphire said:
Doesn't Goro say something like " 3.6+ and 517+" is good enough for pretty much anywhere? So if this person had a higher MCAT score , something like " 3.6/519" would applying to , say , 7 or 8 T20 schools be reasonable, in your opinion? Especially if they have an UW trend in the GPA? ( Like, 3.6 for all four years together , but 3.88 the last two years, or something like that.).
Also, what do you define as cookie cutter? Thousands of hours of volunteering or multiple research pubs are actually not as common as SDN will have you believe.
I'm not disagreeing with you, merely asking you to expand your point.
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3.6 is below national average. 519 is above average, but about average for T20 schools. Cookie cutter could probably be roughly defined as 100-200 clinical and non-clinical volunteering, 1-2 years of research, 1 or 2 clubs with leadership, 50-100 shadowing hours. A 3.6/519 (or a LizzyM of ~73) is good to get in somewhere with a good school list, but not necessarily everywhere with cookie cutter ECs
 
DrHart said:
3.6 is below national average. 519 is above average, but about average for T20 schools. Cookie cutter could probably be roughly defined as 100-200 clinical and non-clinical volunteering, 1-2 years of research, 1 or 2 clubs with leadership, 50-100 shadowing hours. A 3.6/519 (or a LizzyM of ~73) is good to get in somewhere with a good school list, but not necessarily everywhere with cookie cutter ECs
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True, but some top schools have 10th percentiles that go waaaayy down to a 3.4 ish, and there are some schools that reward reinvention. So if someone has top EC's, a lower GPA with an UW trend, and a top MCAT, I'm pretty sure I few top schools that reward reinvention would be reasonable.
I know what you're referring to. Someone with a super average app who applies to like 15 our of the T20 and then like five mid tiers. But I think everyone could have a few reaches on their lists, just like we likey did for UGrad. :shrug:
 
mwsapphire said:
True, but some top schools have 10th percentiles that go waaaayy down to a 3.4 ish, and there are some schools that reward reinvention. So if someone has top EC's, a lower GPA with an UW trend, and a top MCAT, I'm pretty sure I few top schools that reward reinvention would be reasonable.
I know what you're referring to. Someone with a super average app who applies to like 15 our of the T20 and then like five mid tiers. But I think everyone could have a few reaches on their lists, just like we likey did for UGrad.
Click to expand...
My rule of thumb was a list with at least 75% of the schools where I'm at or above the median MCAT. We'll see how it goes haha. But I agree, a few reaches are okay. 5 is eh. 7 or 8 is too many. Unless you don't value money.
 
LizzyM said:
Keep in mind that some of the lower GPA applicants are career changers/non-traditionals who majored in trombone or accounting before deciding at 25 or older to do the pre-med pre-reqs. They may be cut some slack compared to traditional pre-meds.
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Ofc, but how much of the pool do they comprise? And what about people who are in the 2nd quartile, you know? There are always non trads or people with amazing EC's ( URM I'd say can scoot under 10th percentile in some cases), but I don't think they comprise enough of the pool to say that someone with a killer MCAT or at-median MCAT but upward trend and grade deflating institution can't make it to T20. You're an ADCOM at a top school, aren't way fewer people non-trads?
I wish there was more data on this. This is very interesting to me.
Also, SDN is a little conservative.
 
Gap years are very common at top schools, majority of students by a wide margin in some cases (like 70% at Penn for example)
 
efle said:
Gap years are very common at top schools, majority of students by a wide margin in some cases (like 70% at Penn for example)
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Isnt' it majority total anyway? Like 55% of the overall accepted pool?
And what does have to do with stats?
 
You said aren't way fewer nontraditional. The answer is no, plenty of nontrads.
 
efle said:
You said aren't way fewer nontraditional. The answer is no, plenty of nontrads.
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I ... didn't realize non trads included people who took one gap year.....I meant more career- changing non trads that Lizzy M seemed to be referring to ( I realize I'm derailing the thread, so Im gonna stop now)
 
efle said:
You said aren't way fewer nontraditional. The answer is no, plenty of nontrads.
Click to expand...
So... where are they, then?

I will be 30 on the dot when/if I matriculate next year. MSAR says that means I'll be one of the oldest people in the class by a mile... most schools have <10 people in the 30-39 age group. Some only have one.

Are most nontrads just bad applicants or something?
 
I see the issue, strictly speaking traditional is straight after college so 1-2 gap years does make someone "non trad"

People changing careers after like a decade are indeed super rare at all levels, according to the matriculating student questionnaire they are only like 5% of students

2r9s6gk.png
 
efle said:
I see the issue, strictly speaking traditional is straight after college so 1-2 gap years does make someone "non trad"

People changing careers after like a decade are indeed super rare at all levels, according to the matriculating student questionnaire they are only like 5% of students

2r9s6gk.png
Click to expand...
I wonder when that red line will be above the blue line..... *pensive* ( now that we're all derailing the thread...)
 
efle said:
I see the issue, strictly speaking traditional is straight after college so 1-2 gap years does make someone "non trad"

People changing careers after like a decade are indeed super rare at all levels, according to the matriculating student questionnaire they are only like 5% of students

2r9s6gk.png
Click to expand...

If you are trying to explain the bottom 10% by GPA in a class of 100 or 200 matriculants, it only takes a handful of non-trads or other applicants with bad undergrad records to move the 10th percentile downward. No one should get their hopes up if they are at the 10th percentile... those folks got in despite their GPA because they brought something else to the table.
 
LizzyM said:
If you are trying to explain the bottom 10% by GPA in a class of 100 or 200 matriculants, it only takes a handful of non-trads or other applicants with bad undergrad records to move the 10th percentile downward. No one should get their hopes up if they are at the 10th percentile... those folks got in despite their GPA because they brought something else to the table.
Click to expand...
Now that I think about it, many top med schools also have premed postbacc programs (like Columbia, WashU or Penn). If they usually admit the standouts from their own programs thats a good chunk of their bottom 10% right there.
 
efle said:
I see the issue, strictly speaking traditional is straight after college so 1-2 gap years does make someone "non trad"

People changing careers after like a decade are indeed super rare at all levels, according to the matriculating student questionnaire they are only like 5% of students

2r9s6gk.png
Click to expand...

I had no idea gap years were THAT common. Very nice graph.
 
Shooters shoot.

I have your exact theoretical "decent stats" and the only reach schools I applied to were Duke, Mayo, and Emory. I have finished all my secondaries and am contemplating adding a few more reaches if I can find ones that aren't total donations.

My mindset, and I'm sure its common, is that I made a mistake in my past and regret the consequences. I trashed my GPA freshman year and have had a 3.9 since then, and can't help but think about what could have been. Probably irrational, but that's how I see it. Sure many are hoping for a lotto ticket too.
 
Jdoxis said:
Shooters shoot.

I have your exact theoretical "decent stats" and the only reach schools I applied to were Duke, Mayo, and Emory. I have finished all my secondaries and am contemplating adding a few more reaches if I can find ones that aren't total donations.

My mindset, and I'm sure its common, is that I made a mistake in my past and regret the consequences. I trashed my GPA freshman year and have had a 3.9 since then, and can't help but think about what could have been. Probably irrational, but that's how I see it. Sure many are hoping for a lotto ticket too.
Click to expand...
But it seems like at a lot of places, that is not a deal breaker. Especially at Duke. If you have the MCAT to back up the lower GPA with an UW trend then it's not a bad idea to do a couple of dream schools.
I mean, let's be real, the T10 is a crap shoot for anyone, even a 3.8+/517+ stellar EC's because I'd say even EC's start to look similar after a while.
Good luck on your cycle!
 
mwsapphire said:
But it seems like at a lot of places, that is not a deal breaker. Especially at Duke. If you have the MCAT to back up the lower GPA with an UW trend then it's not a bad idea to do a couple of dream schools.
I mean, let's be real, the T10 is a crap shoot for anyone, even a 3.8+/517+ stellar EC's because I'd say even EC's start to look similar after a while.
Good luck on your cycle!
Click to expand...
No, it really isn't. That's why its easy to fall into the mindset of I'll just apply to top 20 only. Thanks for the wishes, I'm going into it with expectations only from my state schools. Anything else is a pleasant surprise.
 
On_The_Way_Up said:
Why does every thread on SDN change into a debate?
Click to expand...

This is an online forum where people can start threads and debate/discuss different topics.

The definition of an online forum is: "A Public medium (such as a newspaper column) or place used for debates in which anyone can participate. In Roman times it meant a public place at the center of a market or town where open discussions on judicial, political, and other issues were held. People of all backgrounds with all sorts of interests may post their opinions, comments, et cetera and then receive nearly immediate feedback."

I hope that answered your question.
 
dr.Breezy said:
This thread is dumb. If people with less than stellar stats want to apply to all of the top 20 and can afford it, who cares, probability wise, it may even help. Seems like you're just hating and hiding it as a question


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

What exactly is there to hate in this situation?
 
DrHart said:
3.6 is below national average. 519 is above average, but about average for T20 schools. Cookie cutter could probably be roughly defined as 100-200 clinical and non-clinical volunteering, 1-2 years of research, 1 or 2 clubs with leadership, 50-100 shadowing hours. A 3.6/519 (or a LizzyM of ~73) is good to get in somewhere with a good school list, but not necessarily everywhere with cookie cutter ECs
Click to expand...
It feels like the definition of "cookie cutter" goes up every year
 
Jdoxis said:
Shooters shoot.

I have your exact theoretical "decent stats" and the only reach schools I applied to were Duke, Mayo, and Emory. I have finished all my secondaries and am contemplating adding a few more reaches if I can find ones that aren't total donations.

My mindset, and I'm sure its common, is that I made a mistake in my past and regret the consequences. I trashed my GPA freshman year and have had a 3.9 since then, and can't help but think about what could have been. Probably irrational, but that's how I see it. Sure many are hoping for a lotto ticket too.
Click to expand...
With a good MCAT score, I expect and want you to aim high.
 
I'm similar to the person described by the OP in this thread (stats about > 3.8/512+), but I don't get OP's point.
It seems like OP is yelling at me that I'm such an idiot making crazy decisions.
(Jesus Christ, my CARS is pathetically low. So plz forgive me if my understanding of OP's tone is wrong.)
 
LoveBeingHuman:) said:
Every cycle I hear one too many people with decent but not ultra high stats (talking 3.6/512) and cookie cutter EC's apply to very high schools (Perleman/Harvard type) saying "Well, it couldn't hurt!"

But I just wanted to ask, are you sure it couldn't hurt?

I understand that you have good intentions. You want to go into medicine to help others, have been very successful in school, and want to achieve your dream school. That's totally fine.

But there's a difference between applying to a couple reaches, and applying to the entire top 15 list.

Look at it this way: With a 512/3.6, your stats will be neutral for these very high schools. Your experiences will be what get you in. And that means you need to spend several hours for EACH secondary. The problem is, this distracts from all of your other secondaries for the schools where your stats are exactly on par with and give you a great chance of admission.
Click to expand...
efle said:
Jeez guys, I really don't think OP meant to be hostile towards anyone, just wanted to remind people that opportunity cost is a thing.
Click to expand...

That's what I got when I read it too. Also, I disagree with the notion that experiences and secondary essay quality are what helps applicants get into med schools, especially top tiers. I suspect that medical school admissions is driven very heavily by numbers, especially MCAT scores, since numbers are the only way to objectively compare applicants to the overall applicant pool.
 
UBLI-EINSTEIN said:
I'm similar to the person described by the OP in this thread (stats about > 3.8/512+), but I don't get OP's point.
It seems like OP is yelling at me that I'm such an idiot making crazy decisions.
(Jesus Christ, my CARS is pathetically low. So plz forgive me if my understanding of OP's tone is wrong.)
Click to expand...
He kind of is, you read it just right no reason to cite your CARS score


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Lawper said:
That's what I got when I read it too. Also, I disagree with the notion that experiences and secondary essay quality are what helps applicants get into med schools, especially top tiers. I suspect that medical school admissions is driven very heavily by numbers, especially MCAT scores, since numbers are the only way to objectively compare applicants to the overall applicant pool.
Click to expand...

However, experiences still matter although it's very hard to quantify. Or if experiences don't matter, some people with low stats have no chance getting into medical school (except for URM).
A state SOM (avg MCAT 509) could be entirely filled with students of 510+, who failed applying higher tier schools.
 
UBLI-EINSTEIN said:
However, experiences still matter although it's very hard to quantify. Or if experiences don't matter, some people with low stats have no chance getting into medical school (except for URM).
A state SOM (avg MCAT 509) could be entirely filled with students of 510+, who failed applying higher tier schools.
Click to expand...

Experiences matter but probably not to the extent of good scores. Schools want something in their classes, and usually, having solid numbers helps accomplish this easier than having very advanced and significant activities (exception of course is being a member of a highly sought after demographic group like URM).
 
dr.Breezy said:
You just seem salty that mediocre stats people are applying to too many top schools. I could be wrong but it comes of as entitled and that you're trying to tell people to stay in their lanes.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

I understand why it comes off like that. However, the specific stats I mentioned are not mediocore. My claiming that they aren't "ultra-high" doesn't mean I think they are mediocore.

I think I should be able to say that having a certain set of stats puts you at a disadvantage at certain schools. That's a statistical fact. If you get upset at me about that, then that's more of a hostility on your end that you have trouble accepting reality.

Furthermore, my post builds on that fact. If stats put someone at a disadvantage, it is their experiences that get them it (if they do get in). Which means they have to spend time on their secondaries that could better be spent elsewhere.

Now exactly does that mean I'm telling people to "stay in their lanes"?
 
Pepe18 said:
One of the biggest problems with med school is people who care too much about what other people do, haha.

I'm white and had a sub-3.3 science gpa, so statistically I was lower than most med school matriculants and my stats weren't "on par" for basically everywhere. I ended up with 10 MD acceptances including one top 50 and I'm an MS2 at what was my top choice going into the cycle. Many people on this site would say that all app money was a waste with my gpa. I went to a crappy high school, am a first gen student, started off high school weak, and I only had enough money to apply to 4 undergrad colleges. I chose to apply to a top 10 school where the acceptance rate was less than 10% even though it was statistically unlikely I would get in....I got in early and ended up not applying to any other colleges. I worked 2 yrs to afford med school apps and I applied to many reaches. Sometimes shooting for unrealistic goals pays off. Obviously most people will not be as fortunate as I have been, but if someone wants to spend their money on that improbable chance, it doesn't effect you.

Because I took a risk, I went to one of the best schools in the world, which set me up to get to be in the top 25% of a great program for one of the most-respected degrees one could earn (an undergrad with less support might not have gotten me to where I am today).

And, actually, after getting into the top 50 school I felt a pang of, "What if I applied to top 10 schools?" I would've paid a couple hundred dollars to know 100% that I wouldn't have been accepted to a couple of those schools. I worked hard for that money and it's my own choice to decide if I'm too overwhelmed by secondaries or if I want to keep applying. Some people find the comfort of knowing that they wouldn't have been accepted to the top schools to be worth the money.

Worry about you

Edit: Additionally, many people will not see themselves as cookie cutter even if the app world would deem them as such.
Click to expand...
You got lucky. From what it sounds like, you got lucky twice.
 
Pepe18 said:
One of the biggest problems with med school is people who care too much about what other people do, haha.

I'm white and had a sub-3.3 science gpa, so statistically I was lower than most med school matriculants and my stats weren't "on par" for basically everywhere. I ended up with 10 MD acceptances including one top 50 and I'm an MS2 at what was my top choice going into the cycle. Many people on this site would say that all app money was a waste with my gpa. I went to a crappy high school, am a first gen student, started off high school weak, and I only had enough money to apply to 4 undergrad colleges. I chose to apply to a top 10 school where the acceptance rate was less than 10% even though it was statistically unlikely I would get in....I got in early and ended up not applying to any other colleges. I worked 2 yrs to afford med school apps and I applied to many reaches. Sometimes shooting for unrealistic goals pays off. Obviously most people will not be as fortunate as I have been, but if someone wants to spend their money on that improbable chance, it doesn't effect you.

Because I took a risk, I went to one of the best schools in the world, which set me up to get to be in the top 25% of a great program for one of the most-respected degrees one could earn (an undergrad with less support might not have gotten me to where I am today).

And, actually, after getting into the top 50 school I felt a pang of, "What if I applied to top 10 schools?" I would've paid a couple hundred dollars to know 100% that I wouldn't have been accepted to a couple of those schools. I worked hard for that money and it's my own choice to decide if I'm too overwhelmed by secondaries or if I want to keep applying. Some people find the comfort of knowing that they wouldn't have been accepted to the top schools to be worth the money.

Worry about you

Edit: Additionally, many people will not see themselves as cookie cutter even if the app world would deem them as such.
Click to expand...
10 MD admits with a 3.2x huh...what was your MCAT? URM? I'm gonna guess you weren't typical in other areas like the hypothetical victim of opportunity cost in the OP
 
MonkeyArrow said:
You got lucky. From what it sounds like, you got lucky twice.
Click to expand...
If he got 10 acceptances it would seem that he worked very hard to be a good applicant despite his GPA. I wouldn't call that luck. So why the condescending attitude? He succeeded. This stay in your lane nonsense gives this forum a bad reputation.

Caution people on the likely outcome, but let people shoot their shot.
 
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