A sincere question about "networking"

[headortail]

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At the expense of of sounding stupid, here I go.

I've always been confused when people tout the benefit of "networking" - what exactly do they mean by this? When I was in school, my professors talked about networking like it was a life and death matter. Those who didn't go to networking events were doomed to be jobless, while those who perfected the "elevator speech" would get ahead. I attended a few of these events but stopped going by the end of my P1 year. To me it was extremely silly to think someone I met at one of these events, talked with for at most a few hours, would be able to "get a job" for me. How the heck do you know how capable someone is, and how their work ethics is just with a few hours of "networking"? Some people sound like they're about to conquer the world, while in reality when you work with them, they just suck. No work ethics, making up stuff to sound smart but no real knowledge, etc. Someone could be extremely sharp and be impressive at these events, but if their work ethics sucks, then it sucks. Not to mention you have no idea how well they'll work in a team. Has anyone really gotten a job from these events?

On the other hand, there is the "networking" from friends circle and fraternities. Do people really refer their friends or brothers just because they're from the same circle? If I've never worked with my friends, I would not feel comfortable referring them as it can really tarnish my reputation, unless it's my absolute best friends whose knowledge and work ethics I know inside out. An exception is professional organizations involvement - as you spend time with these people, you can see how well they work with others and how committed they are in carrying out projects. I would probably feel more comfortable referring some of my former board members, as their personality within the organization and while doing projects probably closely reflects how they would function in an actual pharmacy.

IMO, when you work somewhere and are referred by your co-workers, that makes absolute sense and to me, that's not "networking" but rather just proving yourself and earning your worth. That's personally how I got a job after residency, by strong references. Since I went to school OOS and my family is not in health care, I had no connections and no one to "refer" me, except for my co-workers - it was a job search starting from scratch. For those who are either pre-pharm or in pharmacy school working as a tech or intern and knowing pharmacists that way, I don't consider that "networking" either, as described above. If you've shown your potential AT WORK, you deserve your references. But the whole referring friend, fraternity brothers (whom one has never worked with), and going to networking events just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Same with LinkedIn TBH. I use it to search for jobs, but other than that I don't see a whole lot of use for it.

I guess I'm just curious to see if I'm totally off here. Would you ever feel confident in referring a friend (who you know well from school/personal life but has never worked with)? Would you give someone a job by speaking to them at networking events? My mantra is that if I haven't worked with you, I would never refer you.

 

[pms_testosterone]

@headortail networking is great for finding out information, e.g. which pharmacies are good places to work, what kind of trajectories did other people's careers take?

The likelihood of directly getting a job from a networking event is low, but you might find out about jobs you weren't aware of before.

Basically I'm agreeing with you. The benefits of these events exist, but are overstated.

 

[owlegrad]

What exactly do you think networking is? Your definition of networking seems to be "everything except the practical parts" so yeah, by your definition of networking it would be extremely low value. If you add back in the practical side of networking it becomes a lot more valuable.

Basically if you think of networking as expanding the circle of people you can leverage in finding a job (including current coworkers), it is very helpful. If you think of it as going to school sponsored presentations, yeah, it's not going to be that helpful. Networking doesn't have to be "a person who will hire me no questions asked" but it can be a classmate that tells you about an opening at their pharmacy or it can be a coworker who you can list as a reference.

As for recommending someone you worked with on a school committee or something like that, that made me chuckle. School groups are such jokes IMO. So you would recommend some 'treasurer' or 'vice-president' of some BS school group before you would recommend one of your own 'friends'? Some friend you are *eyeroll*

 

[headortail]

As for recommending someone you worked with on a school committee or something like that, that made me chuckle. School groups are such jokes IMO. So you would recommend some 'treasurer' or 'vice-president' of some BS school group before you would recommend one of your own 'friends'? Some friend you are *eyeroll*

As I've stated before, if I've never worked with my friends in a professional capacity, I have no idea how they function in an actual pharmacy. You could say the same for people in an organization, but if you spend enough time with them, you'll see how they handle projects, work within a group of various personality, etc. It just depends on what I've seen them accomplish. I would never refer someone without seeing their 1) work ethics 2) ability to work well with people. I can have an idea of my friends' work ethics (maybe), but I have no clue how well they handle difficult techs, ability to prioritize to meet deadlines, etc. Also as I said, this excludes the few "best friends" who I know inside out. And as such, they don't count as "networking" - they're just my friends. On the other hands, some people are wonderful friends, but as their personalities go they wouldn't be a good fit for all workplaces. Referring them is wasting their time and the company's time. There's nothing to eyeroll about such things.

In summary, if I haven't seen someone do actual work and seen them working in a team, I simply cannot vouch for them in a new workplace.

Networking doesn't have to be "a person who will hire me no questions asked" but it can be a classmate that tells you about an opening at their pharmacy or it can be a coworker who you can list as a reference.

For me this makes sense, I guess I just don't view it as "networking" aka something you do separately from what you're already doing at work (doing a good job). But it makes sense that it's part of "building a network", albeit different from my image of going to random conferences and handing out CVs (which was the definition that was touted to us from school). This form is the type that makes no sense to me.

 

[npage148]

Your post is tldr.

But for me, it's gone like this for me twice. I know someone (personally or professionally) who either works in a company in applying to (different department) or knows the person in charge of hiring or the manager of the position (professional colleagues). They make a call and I get an interview/pushed to the top of the stack. Both times it hasn't worked (for reason not in my control) but it got me interviews I wouldn't have.

In one case it was someone I run with and a friend of my wife and the other case it was a dean of my pharmacy school I kept in touch with. It helps that I'm not a f-up (at least externally) so they feel comfortable vouching for me

I'm a bad "networker" but sometimes knowing people seems to randomly help

 

[owlegrad]

As I've stated before, if I've never worked with my friends in a professional capacity, I have no idea how they function in an actual pharmacy. ...

In summary, if I haven't seen someone do actual work and seen them working in a team, I simply cannot vouch for them.

It occurs to me that you might have too little experience with the hiring process to understand how networking helps. I got my current job because a personal friend who worked for the company referred me. I got the interview and from that my job.

When I was a hiring manager I always interviewed anyone referred to me. And based on the interview I made a decision.

At my current job I have referred two people who both got interviews but didn’t get the jobs.

So networking isn’t a golden ticket but it can also be the difference.

I think in a few years when you have some personal experience with it your views will change. This idea that it is worthless is simply because you are defining it too narrowly. And I suspect you will find that people you know on a personal level you are much better able to measure the traits that matter most to employers (dependability, initiative, ethics, etc.) vs classmates you only very superficial know.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Another swing and a miss by an adcom

 

[lord999]

You can do a lot in terms of "passive networking" in the sense that you do try to be approachable and not being an @()hole. Many of the more unique opportunities come up from the sort of being receptive than it goes from seeking. I find that most people who are seeking have a problem doing so without coming off like a used car salesman. The people who can advocate without triggering defense mechanisms (call them marketers or con man depending on your sense for ethics) are a very rare bunch in the medical professions.

The advice "just be yourself" applies to the active seeking style, where most people cannot ask for certain things without being unnatural. I would argue against "just be yourself" for the passive aspects, if you are not approachable, you will not see some opportunities. But, being too passive, you will be passed over.

There is actually a fair amount of psychology around how this works out for different people as it applies to dating, mating, and cheating. You might want to hit that literature up on what your archetypes tend to be and at least reduce your self-destructive behaviors.

And the way civil service hiring works, if at all possible, I would rather keep my tribe internally as fighting HR is impossible. I wish I could hire strictly on meritocracy, but the way institutions work in the civil service, tribalism is usually the way that surviving organizations find the right people, train them to their values, and get them to do productive work. Whether it is secret handshakes, indulging in blood cannibalism (how I got my promotion probably had something to do with that), or compatriots in some crisis (training can do this, but also service can as well), you need some way to get at the unmentionables for jobs that you absolutely want done right. I find that people who hire strictly on meritocracy end up screwing themselves at least once by making an extremely bad choice, which depending on the organization, may not be recoverable.

 

[wucool33]

OP is the type of “friend” I try to avoid...

 

[headortail]

I think in a few years when you have some personal experience with it your views will change. This idea that it is worthless is simply because you are defining it too narrowly. And I suspect you will find that people you know on a personal level you are much better able to measure the traits that matter most to employers (dependability, initiative, ethics, etc.) vs classmates you only very superficial know.

I think you're probably right. I just struggle at times when people ask me "do you know anyone?" to see if I have someone I'd like to refer, but in the end I have to say no when I wasn't confident in their abilities to do well at my specific setting. I would refer a particular friend right away if I was working amb care, for example, but I just don't see them in the acute care setting.

OP is the type of “friend” I try to avoid...

If you're the type who freezes under pressure, doubts yourself, and takes forever to go over the most tedious details that frankly nobody cares about, I will not refer you to my current workplace. But I will let you know (and have) of opportunities within the health system where people can work at a slower place where it would suit your personality a little bit more.

I think the original post gave off the image of someone who would rather refer strangers than friends lol. My apology. My intention was to say, I would only refer someone if I'm confident of their ability, and not JUST because they're my friends. To me, doing otherwise would do both them and me a disservice.

 

[Apotheker2015]

I think you're probably right. I just struggle at times when people ask me "do you know anyone?" to see if I have someone I'd like to refer, but in the end I have to say no when I wasn't confident in their abilities to do well at my specific setting. I would refer a particular friend right away if I was working amb care, for example, but I just don't see them in the acute care setting.



If you're the type who freezes under pressure, doubts yourself, and takes forever to go over the most tedious details that frankly nobody cares about, I will not refer you to my current workplace. But I will let you know (and have) of opportunities within the health system where people can work at a slower place where it would suit your personality a little bit more.

I think the original post gave off the image of someone who would rather refer strangers than friends lol. My apology. My intention was to say, I would only refer someone if I'm confident of their ability, and not JUST because they're my friends. To me, doing otherwise would do both them and me a disservice.

I guess I do not see why you wouldn’t refer a friend and share the wealth. When I’m not entirely sure if someone is fully proficient, I flat out tell them “this is what is expected. Can you do it? I’ll put my name on your application if you’re 100% sure.”

My friends have said the same to me. Just recently one offered to refer me for an MTM position and while cushy, I didn’t go for it. I thanked my friend and shared more about my plans and what I would really be up for.

As far as networking events, the idea of collecting those business cards is that you get a mentor out of that. You keep in touch with that person. PharmAcists love mentoring others. It may explain why so many of us check in here frequently and spend quite a bit of time putting thought behind the advice we offer here.

Proving your worth at work is in fact networking. Showing you’re lazy and not worthy will guarantee your coworkers won’t want *to give you a good reference and instead, will ban you from *their network.

 

[owlegrad]

Showing you’re lazy and not worthy will guarantee your coworkers won’t want give you a good reference and instead, will ban you from yourco-workers’ network.

That's an excellent point. There is a tech at my job who wants to be a lawyer and had hoped to get a letter of reference from a pharmacist whose husband is a lawyer. She flat out told him she would not ask her husband for a reference for him.

 

[headortail]

I guess I do not see why you wouldn’t refer a friend and share the wealth. When I’m not entirely sure if someone is fully proficient, I flat out tell them “this is what is expected. Can you do it? I’ll put my name on your application if you’re 100% sure.”

As far as networking events, the idea of collecting those business cards is that you get a mentor out of that. You keep in touch with that person. PharmAcists love mentoring others. It may explain why so many of us check in here frequently and spend quite a bit of time putting thought behind the advice we offer here.

Proving your worth at work is in fact networking. Showing you’re lazy and not worthy will guarantee your coworkers won’t want give you a good reference and instead, will ban you from yourco-workers’ network.

This makes a lot of sense. And also the reason as to why I didn't refer aforementioned friend - they were never sure but would go back and forth between staying at current place (of which they hate) vs going to acute care. I've seen some people referred by current employees who just couldn't cut it. But then again, that's never a guaranteed thing. Someone who may be excellent at one setting may suck (or hates therefore not motivated to do well) at the other.

The lesson is I'll probably just refer in the future and let the hiring people determine the result; if they don't see it fit, they won't hire. FTR I actively look for opportunities within the same health system for that friend, but their wishy-washy attitude is pretty discouraging.

 

[Apotheker2015]

This makes a lot of sense. And also the reason as to why I didn't refer aforementioned friend - they were never sure but would go back and forth between staying at current place (of which they hate) vs going to acute care. I've seen some people referred by current employees who just couldn't cut it. But then again, that's never a guaranteed thing. Someone who may be excellent at one setting may suck (or hates therefore not motivated to do well) at the other.

The lesson is I'll probably just refer in the future and let the hiring people determine the result; if they don't see it fit, they won't hire. FTR I actively look for opportunities within the same health system for that friend, but their wishy-washy attitude is pretty discouraging.

I see your point and it’s valid. What I’m doing a very poor job at conveying here is that I allow my friends to assess whether their skills match the demands of the position. I am asking you to weigh whether making that decision for your friend is fair.

A thousand things could be going on with your friend who’s acting scattered. Everyone’s fighting their own battles. It’s easy to forget that.

Don’t forget that to get a job you have to meet the minimum qualifications. It’s great if you have all the preferred qualifications but it comes down to whether you will fit in and be able to work with the team. The most qualified person is not always who gets the job.

 

[headortail]

I see your point and it’s valid. What I’m doing a very poor job at conveying here is that I allow my friends to assess whether their skills match the demands of the position. I am asking you to weigh whether making that decision for your friend is fair.

A thousand things could be going on with your friend who’s acting scattered. Everyone’s fighting their own battles. It’s easy to forget that.

Actually your point is spot on. It's not necessarily fair for me to pre-determine without the input of said friend. Thank you for your advice.

Regarding the personal battles, it couldn't be more accurate. There are things keeping them tied to their current job, family being the chief issue, and I'm aware of the majority of these issues as we're very close. They're also the chief reason I can never fathom anyone living in the Bay Area without making >200k a year; as a pharmacist, they're struggling to pay off loans (already has a 30-year plan which I find ridiculous frankly, considering a 5-6% interest rate) and have accepted the fact they can never afford a house on their own. But, at one point I think they'll just have to make a decision - either stay in the Bay and forever struggle with money plus being miserable at work, or leave for a few years to get the experience necessary and then can move back (will still be struggling with money, but higher chance of finding a better job).

Kind of off topic, but the advice here has helped me a lot regarding my personal concern.

 

[Apotheker2015]

Actually your point is spot on. It's not necessarily fair for me to pre-determine without the input of said friend. Thank you for your advice.

Regarding the personal battles, it couldn't be more accurate. There are things keeping them tied to their current job, family being the chief issue, and I'm aware of the majority of these issues as we're very close. They're also the chief reason I can never fathom anyone living in the Bay Area without making >200k a year; as a pharmacist, they're struggling to pay off loans (already has a 30-year plan which I find ridiculous frankly, considering a 5-6% interest rate) and have accepted the fact they can never afford a house on their own. But, at one point I think they'll just have to make a decision - either stay in the Bay and forever struggle with money plus being miserable at work, or leave for a few years to get the experience necessary and then can move back (will still be struggling with money, but higher chance of finding a better job).

Kind of off topic, but the advice here has helped me a lot regarding my personal concern.

The Bay Area is just off limits. See...? ANOTHER reason to retreat to the Midwest as previously discussed on that other thread. LOL

 

[PharmtoCS]

The Bay Area is just off limits. See...? ANOTHER reason to retreat to the Midwest as previously discussed on that other thread. LOL

They'll be forced to move to the Midwest either way due to the lack of jobs in the Bay Area. The exception is if they're okay with living with their parents and scraping by with part time hours indefinitely.

They should have become a software engineer if they wanted to stay or move to the Bay Area.

 

[lord999]

What makes you think the Midwest is any better? Chicago, Minneapolis, and Indianapolis are closed markets right now for pharmacists. Places where there was a pharmacist shortage sure is not a problem now.

For all the dorama fans out there, if you can find a subtitled j-drama called Hanzawa Naoki, the first couple of episodes cover all you want to know about why networks are both necessary and problematic.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Use LinkedIn to your advantage. Reach out, make friends and contacts, don’t just add random folks and not say a word to them... make a meaningful impression and offer your services when applicable.

I got a great PRN gig via reaching out on LinkedIn... prime example of networking.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Jbrl]

Use LinkedIn to your advantage. Reach out, make friends and contacts, don’t just add random folks and not say a word to them... make a meaningful impression and offer your services when applicable.

I got a great PRN gig via reaching out on LinkedIn... prime example of networking.

Support this as well - I got a number of job offers through networking with random people. LinkedIn's a fantastic underutilized resource. Attach a personalized note with a connection request and you've already done more legwork than >80% of people out there.

For me this makes sense, I guess I just don't view it as "networking" aka something you do separately from what you're already doing at work (doing a good job). But it makes sense that it's part of "building a network", albeit different from my image of going to random conferences and handing out CVs (which was the definition that was touted to us from school). This form is the type that makes no sense to me.

Boss of mine once told me, "Networking isn't about collecting contacts; it's about building relationships." Reframing your perception of networking [and anything, really...] changes how you act and how people in turn perceive you. It can be extremely forced or refreshingly genuine. Take your pick.

When it comes to referring people, I think everyone is willing to refer people they 1. like and 2. regard as competent. People generally don't risk reputational capital by referring in a bad apple, but they have different standards for what it means to be competent. Your bar is high, which is fine - just know that other people's aren't, necessarily. Affinity bias (e.g. I like you because we share the same fraternity) is easy to spot, but people accept it knowingly as a norm. Additionally, this is self propagating - jobs are very often sourced to people with internal contacts, so those hires also more liable to pay it forward by giving people they don't know chances. Relationships make the world go round.

For example -
1. Go to APhA, listen in on some of the relevant workshops/meetings or go see some of the posters - ask people about their work, ask for advice about your own work, chat em up about their interests, whatever. For most people the interactions end there. Keep it going - follow up afterward with an email/text/etc, reach out every few months, ask for info or help, engage them on FB/LinkedIn, try to help them out if you have expertise you can contribute, etc. When it comes time, and you ask about job openings, or advice looking for a job - they know you, they like you. You're a de-risked candidate.

I think that's a better model for networking than the one you've envisioned. Of course, delivery is important and the first tries don't feel great, but if you don't ever start, you won't ever get better.

2. Go to LinkedIn, find people from your university, with PharmDs, who've worked/volunteered where you have, or randoms who are in a field or company you're interested in. Reach out, connect, attach a note asking to speak with them for 30 minutes about their work at so and so institution or X industry. You'd be surprised how many people agree to this (my hit rate for people outside of pharmacy was >30%, N = >250 and have helped others get jobs e.g. fellowships with this method). Then be sincere in your initial calls. Same follow-through stuff as before.

For people who gun for finance jobs (e.g. investment banking in Wall Street), this kind of thing is the norm to get an offer. Do this in healthcare oriented profession and you'll stand out a bit more than the rest.

With these kinds of methods you can increase your hit rate for jobs and be shortlisted for them.

 

[beautifulrobot]

As alluded to by others, especially Jbrl, networking is not a one-and-done deal. It requires on-going investment of time and effort. Networking = building relationships. Strong relationships require on-going maintenance. The pay off is you learn about job opportunities you wouldn't have otherwise, you become better informed about the realities of those jobs, and it gives you an edge over other job applicants who do not have any connections with a particular organization. You might even make a friend or two. Networking takes a lot of effort, at least for me (I imagine more extroverted people might enjoy it more than I do), but I find it to be worthwhile in terms of learning about different career opportunities that I wouldn't have discovered on my own. I wouldn't have had the chance to interview for my current job if I hadn't cold called some folks, showed interest in their work, and asked them if they wouldn't mind sharing with me how they got to where they are. Occasionally I also meet interesting people with whom I find common ground, and even if it doesn't lead to a job, I find value in that as well.

 

[Apotheker2015]

They'll be forced to move to the Midwest either way due to the lack of jobs in the Bay Area. The exception is if they're okay with living with their parents and scraping by with part time hours indefinitely.

They should have become a software engineer if they wanted to stay or move to the Bay Area.

I’m 100% with you. There is saturation but if it takes you a long time to find a job while you’re in between jobs, it’s easier to meet ends.

 

[headortail]

Boss of mine once told me, "Networking isn't about collecting contacts; it's about building relationships." Reframing your perception of networking [and anything, really...] changes how you act and how people in turn perceive you. It can be extremely forced or refreshingly genuine. Take your pick.

TBH when I was in pharmacy school I always dreaded these events, partly due to my extreme introverted nature (not obvious as I've learned to just endure it and get on with life just fine) and a fear of small talks. Looking at it from the building relationships / learning new stuff, it sounds a lot less superficial. For example, during my arduous job search, it was eye-opening to see what other institutions did (protocols for automatic interchange & dosing, workflow, computer systems etc) that mine didn't do, and vice versa; even though I didn't get hired at those institutions, it was still cool to see the way everyone does things differently. I can imagine if I were to participate in conferences now, it would be interesting to (genuinely) talk to people to find out how they do things differently, and maybe can even bring that back to current institution to make policies / protocols better. Thanks for your awesome post!

 

[Apotheker2015]

Support this as well - I got a number of job offers through networking with random people. LinkedIn's a fantastic underutilized resource. Attach a personalized note with a connection request and you've already done more legwork than >80% of people out there.

Boss of mine once told me, "Networking isn't about collecting contacts; it's about building relationships." Reframing your perception of networking [and anything, really...] changes how you act and how people in turn perceive you. It can be extremely forced or refreshingly genuine. Take your pick.

When it comes to referring people, I think everyone is willing to refer people they 1. like and 2. regard as competent. People generally don't risk reputational capital by referring in a bad apple, but they have different standards for what it means to be competent. Your bar is high, which is fine - just know that other people's aren't, necessarily. Affinity bias (e.g. I like you because we share the same fraternity) is easy to spot, but people accept it knowingly as a norm. Additionally, this is self propagating - jobs are very often sourced to people with internal contacts, so those hires also more liable to pay it forward by giving people they don't know chances. Relationships make the world go round.

For example -
1. Go to APhA, listen in on some of the relevant workshops/meetings or go see some of the posters - ask people about their work, ask for advice about your own work, chat em up about their interests, whatever. For most people the interactions end there. Keep it going - follow up afterward with an email/text/etc, reach out every few months, ask for info or help, engage them on FB/LinkedIn, try to help them out if you have expertise you can contribute, etc. When it comes time, and you ask about job openings, or advice looking for a job - they know you, they like you. You're a de-risked candidate.

I think that's a better model for networking than the one you've envisioned. Of course, delivery is important and the first tries don't feel great, but if you don't ever start, you won't ever get better.

2. Go to LinkedIn, find people from your university, with PharmDs, who've worked/volunteered where you have, or randoms who are in a field or company you're interested in. Reach out, connect, attach a note asking to speak with them for 30 minutes about their work at so and so institution or X industry. You'd be surprised how many people agree to this (my hit rate for people outside of pharmacy was >30%, N = >250 and have helped others get jobs e.g. fellowships with this method). Then be sincere in your initial calls. Same follow-through stuff as before.

For people who gun for finance jobs (e.g. investment banking in Wall Street), this kind of thing is the norm to get an offer. Do this in healthcare oriented profession and you'll stand out a bit more than the rest.

With these kinds of methods you can increase your hit rate for jobs and be shortlisted for them.

@headortail, this is great advice. It’s about building relationships.

 

[jblil]

It’s about building relationships.

Exactly. I am a PT and currently work in a location that hires a lot of travel RNs; it's a rural environment and not very appealing to most people. I always make it a point to make those travel RNs feel welcome and help them out whenever possible. So last week I was looking for another opportunity and stopped by a new place to inquire about openings. I was talking to the hiring manager and guess who walks in? A travel RN whom I used to work with, at my current place. We were very happy to see each other, and the nurse looked at the hiring manager and said some very nice words about me. That may be enough to tip the scale in my favor, if there are other applicants and if all else is equal.

Too many people think networking = help in finding a job. That's the wrong way to look at it.

 

[BenJammin]

I would say this to OP: what you're describing is a total pipe dream. If you think there is no value in networking then I can only imagine what kind of jobs you are missing out on. You're in the slow lane watching everyone pass you by.

 

[DrVader]

At the expense of of sounding stupid, here I go.

I've always been confused when people tout the benefit of "networking" - what exactly do they mean by this? When I was in school, my professors talked about networking like it was a life and death matter. Those who didn't go to networking events were doomed to be jobless, while those who perfected the "elevator speech" would get ahead. I attended a few of these events but stopped going by the end of my P1 year. To me it was extremely silly to think someone I met at one of these events, talked with for at most a few hours, would be able to "get a job" for me. How the heck do you know how capable someone is, and how their work ethics is just with a few hours of "networking"? Some people sound like they're about to conquer the world, while in reality when you work with them, they just suck. No work ethics, making up stuff to sound smart but no real knowledge, etc. Someone could be extremely sharp and be impressive at these events, but if their work ethics sucks, then it sucks. Not to mention you have no idea how well they'll work in a team. Has anyone really gotten a job from these events?

On the other hand, there is the "networking" from friends circle and fraternities. Do people really refer their friends or brothers just because they're from the same circle? If I've never worked with my friends, I would not feel comfortable referring them as it can really tarnish my reputation, unless it's my absolute best friends whose knowledge and work ethics I know inside out. An exception is professional organizations involvement - as you spend time with these people, you can see how well they work with others and how committed they are in carrying out projects. I would probably feel more comfortable referring some of my former board members, as their personality within the organization and while doing projects probably closely reflects how they would function in an actual pharmacy.

IMO, when you work somewhere and are referred by your co-workers, that makes absolute sense and to me, that's not "networking" but rather just proving yourself and earning your worth. That's personally how I got a job after residency, by strong references. Since I went to school OOS and my family is not in health care, I had no connections and no one to "refer" me, except for my co-workers - it was a job search starting from scratch. For those who are either pre-pharm or in pharmacy school working as a tech or intern and knowing pharmacists that way, I don't consider that "networking" either, as described above. If you've shown your potential AT WORK, you deserve your references. But the whole referring friend, fraternity brothers (whom one has never worked with), and going to networking events just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Same with LinkedIn TBH. I use it to search for jobs, but other than that I don't see a whole lot of use for it.

I guess I'm just curious to see if I'm totally off here. Would you ever feel confident in referring a friend (who you know well from school/personal life but has never worked with)? Would you give someone a job by speaking to them at networking events? My mantra is that if I haven't worked with you, I would never refer you.

As a business major, networking is my bread and butter. Imagine you are a employer, you put a job posting online and you get a 1000 applications. Ranging from over qualified to drooling idoit. How do you sort through them? You can't, but what you can do is see if you know someone who knows someone. I have gotten jobs and job interviews because of alum who work in the company.

 

[headortail]

I would say this to OP: what you're describing is a total pipe dream. If you think there is no value in networking then I can only imagine what kind of jobs you are missing out on. You're in the slow lane watching everyone pass you by.

What I find frankly dread more than anything else because of my personality is the social events where you go up to random people and try to make relevant conversations. Honestly, if I was a bit more outgoing, I probably would enjoy it a bit more, but personality is difficult to change. This is contrary to what happens at work (a much more intimate environment), where I always greet everyone upon arriving and regularly train new employees because I was deemed as "very friendly" by management. Socially, it's a lot more pleasant for me.

At work; it comes naturally to being a good co-worker and being respectful to everyone, old and new. It's surprising (to me) the number of people you can get to know; the number of pharmacists who cycle through the pharmacy at any time is a great deal more than just the benefited (regular) ones. Just imagine burning the bridge with a per diem who only shows up once a month but is the pharmacy manager at another major hospital...and what that can do to your "network" 😀 And you're right, without my colleagues who put in good words for me, I would not have gotten the job after residency.

In short, I enjoy building relationships with people and should start looking at "networking" that way; I only dread the social events in a room of 100.

 

[Rouelle]

tl;dr to entire thread. Are there cliff notes available?

 

[headortail]

tl;dr to entire thread. Are there cliff notes available?

What I learned was: networking = just get to know people and be a good sport 😀

 

[Wickett]

Networking is just a catch all term for socializing with people in your profession. The more people you know, the better the chance you know someone or know someone that knows someone that is looking to hire somebody. Having someone you trust recommend someone or knowing someone on a personal level when it comes to sifting through applications really increases your chances of an interview and/or hire. You don't have to be a social butterfly that befriends every faculty member and guest speaker that appears at your program, but building a good rapport and impression on P4 rotations really will be key to obtaining a job. You can get a job from performing well on a rotation, or at least get some strong recommendations from preceptors that know people in the field hiring. Don't make it too daunting/complicated.....just show you are competent in school and on rotations so you can get some strong references when you approach graduation and start the job hunt.

 

[headortail]

Having someone you trust recommend someone or knowing someone on a personal level when it comes to sifting through applications really increases your chances of an interview and/or hire. You don't have to be a social butterfly that befriends every faculty member and guest speaker that appears at your program, but building a good rapport and impression on P4 rotations really will be key to obtaining a job. You can get a job from performing well on a rotation, or at least get some strong recommendations from preceptors that know people in the field hiring. Don't make it too daunting/complicated.....just show you are competent in school and on rotations so you can get some strong references when you approach graduation and start the job hunt.

Thank you! I wish this was how the information was presented in school... instead, there was this big scary thing about attending school functions and conferences and *if you don't do these things you'll end up jobless*. Having no friends or family in the healthcare field I wasn't exactly sure if what was taught was accurate and attempted these events, only to retreat back into my shell soon enough. I felt very inadequate compared to some of my peers who knew all professors and school administrators (which is great for them). Had I known what it really meant to build a network, I would have been relieved of much unnecessary anxiety.

 

[hye345]

Thank you! I wish this was how the information was presented in school... instead, there was this big scary thing about attending school functions and conferences and *if you don't do these things you'll end up jobless*. Having no friends or family in the healthcare field I wasn't exactly sure if what was taught was accurate and attempted these events, only to retreat back into my shell soon enough. I felt very inadequate compared to some of my peers who knew all professors and school administrators (which is great for them). Had I known what it really meant to build a network, I would have been relieved of much unnecessary anxiety.

Yeah, I also never had enough energy nor interest to get all *personal* with faculty, aside from some small talk. Just felt too disingenuous to me to fake interest. On the rotations that I did like however, I did try to show my work ethic. These were the preceptors that I contacted afterwards for LOR's and such.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Networking is not a verb- if you treat it as such you're doing it wrong

 

[owlegrad]

Networking is not a verb- if you treat it as such you're doing it wrong

Is it a noun?

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Is it a noun?

It's a sunbeam from space that gives us all warm feelings

 

[Son_Goku]

You see no value in networking but you completed a residency?

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Is it a noun?

"The first rule of networking is: you do not talk about networking"

 

[Rouelle]

Oh oh, can we diagram some sentences?

 

[Modest_anteater]

At the expense of of sounding stupid, here I go.

I've always been confused when people tout the benefit of "networking" - what exactly do they mean by this? When I was in school, my professors talked about networking like it was a life and death matter. Those who didn't go to networking events were doomed to be jobless, while those who perfected the "elevator speech" would get ahead. I attended a few of these events but stopped going by the end of my P1 year. To me it was extremely silly to think someone I met at one of these events, talked with for at most a few hours, would be able to "get a job" for me. How the heck do you know how capable someone is, and how their work ethics is just with a few hours of "networking"? Some people sound like they're about to conquer the world, while in reality when you work with them, they just suck. No work ethics, making up stuff to sound smart but no real knowledge, etc. Someone could be extremely sharp and be impressive at these events, but if their work ethics sucks, then it sucks. Not to mention you have no idea how well they'll work in a team. Has anyone really gotten a job from these events?

On the other hand, there is the "networking" from friends circle and fraternities. Do people really refer their friends or brothers just because they're from the same circle? If I've never worked with my friends, I would not feel comfortable referring them as it can really tarnish my reputation, unless it's my absolute best friends whose knowledge and work ethics I know inside out. An exception is professional organizations involvement - as you spend time with these people, you can see how well they work with others and how committed they are in carrying out projects. I would probably feel more comfortable referring some of my former board members, as their personality within the organization and while doing projects probably closely reflects how they would function in an actual pharmacy.

IMO, when you work somewhere and are referred by your co-workers, that makes absolute sense and to me, that's not "networking" but rather just proving yourself and earning your worth. That's personally how I got a job after residency, by strong references. Since I went to school OOS and my family is not in health care, I had no connections and no one to "refer" me, except for my co-workers - it was a job search starting from scratch. For those who are either pre-pharm or in pharmacy school working as a tech or intern and knowing pharmacists that way, I don't consider that "networking" either, as described above. If you've shown your potential AT WORK, you deserve your references. But the whole referring friend, fraternity brothers (whom one has never worked with), and going to networking events just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Same with LinkedIn TBH. I use it to search for jobs, but other than that I don't see a whole lot of use for it.

I guess I'm just curious to see if I'm totally off here. Would you ever feel confident in referring a friend (who you know well from school/personal life but has never worked with)? Would you give someone a job by speaking to them at networking events? My mantra is that if I haven't worked with you, I would never refer you.

1.
IMO networking is a euphemism for racism, cronyism and nepotism. Basically try to find people from the same tribe as you (religion, race, geolocation or political alignment) and see if they can help you.

2.
Others will tell you it's about how gregarious and charismatic you are to win people over. Or that maybe it's a quid pro quo symbiotic relationship. You help someone out and they help you out.

In my experience it has always been closer to the first definition. Indians hiring other Indians, whites helping whites, Chinese helping Chinese ect people from the same small town helping people out from that town, People from the same state college only hiring grads from that college. Basically networking = corruption.

Example:

New grad A is applying to RED DEVIL pharmacy. Grad A has a 3.98 GPA and 4 years working in a pharmacy a technician. District manager at RED DEVIL knows he will have 3 new openings in his district in the next three months. He receives Grad A's CV/resume but also knows his cousin's wife's cousin is graduating from pharmacy school soon. So he posts the job opening but already knows he will be hiring his cousin's wife's cousin for the position regardless of his 2.3 GPA and addiction to cocaine. The other two job openings go to someone from the same race as him (GPA 3.4 some experience) and the last one goes to a member of his Church's daughter (2.7 GPA no experience). All three positions get publicly posted to avoid looking like blatant corruption.

Grad A's resume is not even looked at and immediately thrown in the trash.

 

[Rouelle]

1.
IMO networking is a euphemism for racism, cronyism and nepotism. Basically try to find people from the same tribe as you (religion, race, geolocation or political alignment) and see if they can help you.

2.
Others will tell you it's about how gregarious and charismatic you are to win people over. Or that maybe it's a quid pro quo symbiotic relationship. You help someone out and they help you out.

In my experience it has always been closer to the first definition. Indians hiring other Indians, whites helping whites, Chinese helping Chinese ect people from the same small town helping people out from that town, People from the same state college only hiring grads from that college. Basically networking = corruption.

Example:

New grad A is applying to RED DEVIL pharmacy. Grad A has a 3.98 GPA and 4 years working in a pharmacy a technician. District manager at RED DEVIL knows he will have 3 new openings in his district in the next three months. He receives Grad A's CV/resume but also knows his cousin's wife's cousin is graduating from pharmacy school soon. So he posts the job opening but already knows he will be hiring his cousin's wife's cousin for the position regardless of his 2.3 GPA and addiction to cocaine. The other two job openings go to someone from the same race as him (GPA 3.4 some experience) and the last one goes to a member of his Church's daughter (2.7 GPA no experience). All three positions get publicly posted to avoid looking like blatant corruption.

Grad A's resume is not even looked at and immediately thrown in the trash.

I don’t believe race is as big a factor as you believe it is. Professional friendships/favors/whatever seem to cross racial lines very easily. I see this all the time and I don’t even live in a “progressive” part of the country at all.

 

[headortail]

I don’t believe race is as big a factor as you believe it is. Professional friendships/favors/whatever seem to cross racial lines very easily

Race can be a big factor, but usually not out of intent. As @npage148 gave the example, a connection can come from random places, and race can be big when it comes to social connections. A Thai hiring manager may know of other pharmacists who go to the same Thai temple as s/he does and hires those people. Needless to say equally competent candidates' CVs will never even get reviewed. Race may not be the motivating factor (or it could, even if people aren't aware of their own biases themselves), but ultimately it can lead to a lot of social connections which expand the professional network.

I agree that once people get to know each other, I've very rarely seen race being a factor anymore. Most people don't discriminate colleagues based on race as long as they're pleasant and competent. But initially, being part of some ethnic circles/community really gives one an advantage.

 

[Jbrl]

1.
IMO networking is a euphemism for racism, cronyism and nepotism. Basically try to find people from the same tribe as you (religion, race, geolocation or political alignment) and see if they can help you.

2.
Others will tell you it's about how gregarious and charismatic you are to win people over. Or that maybe it's a quid pro quo symbiotic relationship. You help someone out and they help you out.

In my experience it has always been closer to the first definition. Indians hiring other Indians, whites helping whites, Chinese helping Chinese ect people from the same small town helping people out from that town, People from the same state college only hiring grads from that college. Basically networking = corruption.

Example:

New grad A is applying to RED DEVIL pharmacy. Grad A has a 3.98 GPA and 4 years working in a pharmacy a technician. District manager at RED DEVIL knows he will have 3 new openings in his district in the next three months. He receives Grad A's CV/resume but also knows his cousin's wife's cousin is graduating from pharmacy school soon. So he posts the job opening but already knows he will be hiring his cousin's wife's cousin for the position regardless of his 2.3 GPA and addiction to cocaine. The other two job openings go to someone from the same race as him (GPA 3.4 some experience) and the last one goes to a member of his Church's daughter (2.7 GPA no experience). All three positions get publicly posted to avoid looking like blatant corruption.

Grad A's resume is not even looked at and immediately thrown in the trash.

I think the reality is somewhere in-between. Question is: how are hiring managers supposed to choose who to hire? Take pharmacy, for example. Say you get 100 resumes from pharmacy students for a staff position. All of them generally have the same required rotations and have involvement in some clubs. Most of them have tech experience 6 months+. We know that no one really cares about GPA in retail (and some people even penalize against it). No one looks at research or pubs as requirements.

So what do you do to narrow the stack?

It's a fundamental problem in commoditized labor markets like pharmacy and in digitization. To filter through the stacks of noise, people stick with what's familiar and what they can gauge quickly.

 

[npage148]

Race can be a big factor, but usually not out of intent. As @npage148 gave the example, a connection can come from random places, and race can be big when it comes to social connections. A Thai hiring manager may know of other pharmacists who go to the same Thai temple as s/he does and hires those people. Needless to say equally competent candidates' CVs will never even get reviewed. Race may not be the motivating factor (or it could, even if people aren't aware of their own biases themselves), but ultimately it can lead to a lot of social connections which expand the professional network

I in no way implied any racial component to my anecdotes and I would suggest that that's a slippery slope becaue once there's even a hint of a racial component to hiring you're opening yourself up to a world of legal pain.

 

[headortail]

^ Sorry for not being clear, I never got any racial implication from your post; what I got is that you can make a connection through random places outside of the workplace. It obviously carries a lot of legal consequences, that's why I don't think people would do it out of intent. But, social connection through race is not rare. Then, hiring through social connection (a connection that was made through race) doesn't imply race helped someone to be hired directly, but one can't say that it didn't matter in building the "network". Just as golfing would, except one can get you in trouble and not the other.