A tip when choosing med schools

[BigEast55]

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These are the schools that I'm aware of that do not have an internal ranking system and the first two years are P/F:

1. Stanford
2. Yale
3. Pritzker
4. Davis
5. Creighton
6. Virginia
7. CCLCM
8. Case Western

I know Stanford is true P/F all four years. Yale has grades in years 3 and 4, but I got the impression that it was a formality and everyone received honors. Not sure how that works out with Dean's Letters...I thought they had to list if you were top 1/3, middle 1/3, or bottom 1/3 (though I'm not sure where I remember reading/hearing this information, so it may be false).

The University of Rochester has a total P/F curriculum for the pre-clinical stuff with no internal ranking, but you start your FP rotation halfway through year one (its 1.5 years long) and that is graded like all clinical rotations, H/HP/P/F

I think the new school at Virginia Tech is as well.

 

[dbeast]

Ummmm... I'm assuming this debate is still about years 1 and 2. If those grades (or lack of grades) are of little concern to residency programs, why should it influence where a pre-med chooses to go to school either? This whole conversation seems kind of irrelevant except for whoever mentioned the lack of a curve encourages students to work together. Are there even schools with a curve?

 

[mmmcdowe]

These are the schools that I'm aware of that do not have an internal ranking system and the first two years are P/F:

1. Stanford
2. Yale
3. Pritzker
4. Davis
5. Creighton
6. Virginia
7. CCLCM
8. Case Western

I know Stanford is true P/F all four years. Yale has grades in years 3 and 4, but I got the impression that it was a formality and everyone received honors. Not sure how that works out with Dean's Letters...I thought they had to list if you were top 1/3, middle 1/3, or bottom 1/3 (though I'm not sure where I remember reading/hearing this information, so it may be false).

Columbia is p/f unranked for pre-clinicals. The only grades that matter here for AOA are your clinical ones. Also, I thought UVa had internal rankings. My friend goes there, but perhaps he was mistaken.

 

[juliedi]

Can we please get some perspective from someone who actually attends a letter grade based med school? It seems like most of the posters here are either med students with a P/F system or premeds, so I'd just like to hear some other med students experiences if possible.

 

[eli20]

Ummmm... I'm assuming this debate is still about years 1 and 2. If those grades (or lack of grades) are of little concern to residency programs, why should it influence where a pre-med chooses to go to school either? This whole conversation seems kind of irrelevant except for whoever mentioned the lack of a curve encourages students to work together. Are there even schools with a curve?

I know UTMB has a hard cap on the % that can honors a course. Part of why I decided against it. I can only imagine my rage if I got a HP for getting a 95 or something (not that I expect to get a 95 but one less thing to worry about).

 

[Barcu]

I'm surprised how many pre-meds feel grades during the first two years are important. Who would voluntarily elect to add more stress to an already stressful life?

I don't think this was the issue.

I think choosing a P/F would be good if it was an option. However, the OP is saying to only choose or go to a school that is P/F. Not only is that not an option for some, what if you really like a school, but it only has grades? Should you choose a school you didn't like as much solely because it is P/F? I have a problem with that logic, which is what the OP was saying.

If it works out, P/F is a good option. I think almost everyone would agree with that. Not everyone but most.

 

[wanderer]

I've noticed that all the med students posting in this thread have been saying that P/F is better. The thing is, no one from a graded school has responded. I'd like to see what some students from the graded schools say.

In addition, schools that have grades tend to have students that are on average slightly weaker academically. It is expected that these students would be more stressed by the medical school workload. The real question is do the academically stronger students who go to graded schools feel more stressed than their counterparts in ungraded schools?

 

[Frazier]

I've noticed that all the med students posting in this thread have been saying that P/F is better. The thing is, no one from a graded school has responded. I'd like to see what some students from the graded schools say.

They are too busy killing themselves w/ studying trying to land that differentiating "A".

 

[itellitlikeitis]

Eh I see grades as something that can only harm you- it won't help you much if you ace all your first two year grades unless it simultaneously translated into an AOA designation (politics of selection process may throw a wrench into the process just like anything else in life). If you do have a graded system though, it's just one of those things that can count against you, albeit small, but still there in case residency directors need something to tip the scale when selecting between two people who are somehow magically similar- now the person with all passes at a P/F school would look better than a person who gets mostly on P at a H/HP/P/F school, or on par with a person who gets all H if you both don't have AOA, IMO

 

[emsdan]

I've noticed that all the med students posting in this thread have been saying that P/F is better. The thing is, no one from a graded school has responded. I'd like to see what some students from the graded schools say.

In addition, schools that have grades tend to have students that are on average slightly weaker academically. It is expected that these students would be more stressed by the medical school workload. The real question is do the academically stronger students who go to graded schools feel more stressed than their counterparts in ungraded schools?

I go to a graded school (H/HP/P/PwC/F). My opinion is this: Most medical students realize that P=MD. To this point, there is a good majority of the class that, while they might strive to get the 85 or the 90, are perfectly happy to pass. These students share notes, and we get a lot of listserv emails with study guides and old slides, etc. The gunners don't share resources persay, but I have a feeling that at straight P/F schools the gunners also don't share resources.

Most students at most schools don't have dreams to be the chief of plastic surgery at Harvard - they don't need to compete like premed's think we all do. At the schools that are filled with those types, the administration have moved to P/F (although most still keep track of who is in front of who). The schools where this isn't an issue keep grades, because it motivates students to strive for more than "I only need a 35% to pass, so I am gonna go out to the bar instead of learn more".

That said, I have my head/neck final tomorrow and I need a 27% to pass. Of course I am striving for the H, but I certainly am not going to try and kill myself for it.

 

[MCAT guy]

Sure it means "that much more," but considering that pre-clerkship grades are one of the lowest criteria that residency directors use (citation here, see Tables 2-4) anyway, it's not like residency directors are missing a vital piece of an application that they have to make up for with the Step 1 score

Ummmm... I'm assuming this debate is still about years 1 and 2. If those grades (or lack of grades) are of little concern to residency programs, why should it influence where a pre-med chooses to go to school either? This whole conversation seems kind of irrelevant except for whoever mentioned the lack of a curve encourages students to work together. Are there even schools with a curve?

I think what both of you are missing here is that pre-clinical grades count towards class rank, and class rank is far from being of little importance in the more competitive specialties.

I go to a graded school (H/HP/P/PwC/F). My opinion is this: Most medical students realize that P=MD. To this point, there is a good majority of the class that, while they might strive to get the 85 or the 90, are perfectly happy to pass. These students share notes, and we get a lot of listserv emails with study guides and old slides, etc. The gunners don't share resources persay, but I have a feeling that at straight P/F schools the gunners also don't share resources.

Most students at most schools don't have dreams to be the chief of plastic surgery at Harvard - they don't need to compete like premed's think we all do. At the schools that are filled with those types, the administration have moved to P/F (although most still keep track of who is in front of who). The schools where this isn't an issue keep grades, because it motivates students to strive for more than "I only need a 35% to pass, so I am gonna go out to the bar instead of learn more".

That said, I have my head/neck final tomorrow and I need a 27% to pass. Of course I am striving for the H, but I certainly am not going to try and kill myself for it.

The whole, "pass = MD" thing I don't understand. It is usually followed by a statement that not every wants to match into [insert impossible match]. Yet, class rank and clerkship grades (sometimes even AOA) are very important in the eyes of many PDs. Not just at Harvard but at programs across the country in some highly competitive specialties (Derm, Plastics, Rads, Ortho, ENT, etc.). When you go do aways in clinical years, the doctors may ask you your class rank before they are willing to write you a strong letter of rec. So I guess it depends what you want to match. But certainly you can't just write this factor off for everyone.

 

[MCAT guy]

Can we please get some perspective from someone who actually attends a letter grade based med school? It seems like most of the posters here are either med students with a P/F system or premeds, so I'd just like to hear some other med students experiences if possible.

I made a thread the other day in the allo forum on these same topic. You may want to go read it.

 

[juliedi]

I made a thread the other day in the allo forum on these same topic. You may want to go read it.

Thanks, I'll go check it out. Here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=781985

 

[DonutShot]

Not too many schools have a true P/F system. The moment they throw in the H/P/F it turns to crap, imho. There will always be the gunners competing for the 10% of H and I do not think the atmosphere of the school is much different than having full grades. After all, in med school (just like in grad school) most people get Bs and not Cs. So H/P/F is really no different than A/B/F.

That's why the Yale system rules.

But after 22 years of being graded for everything, I do not think that having grades in med school would be a big deal anyway. Of course, I'd rather not.

I don't think the bolded is necessarily true. Many schools when they have H/P/F don't have a cap in terms of how many can get honors. So if it is a 90% to get honors, then hypothetically every single student can get honors, but the onus is on them to get a 90%. Why would there be any more competition in this environment than in a P/F class? Your performance and the performance of others in your class in comparison to you won't make it harder for you to achieve honors.

Plus at some schools that use H/P/F, if the overall class average is lower they will drop the % needed to get honors, but they will never move it up.

 

[jbz24]

I don't think the bolded is necessarily true. Many schools when they have H/P/F don't have a cap in terms of how many can get honors. So if it is a 90% to get honors, then hypothetically every single student can get honors, but the onus is on them to get a 90%. Why would there be any more competition in this environment than in a P/F class? Your performance and the performance of others in your class in comparison to you won't make it harder for you to achieve honors.

Plus at some schools that use H/P/F, if the overall class average is lower they will drop the % needed to get honors, but they will never move it up.

There might not be more competition per se, but definitely more stress - in essence making it a continuation of the pre-med years.

 

[dbeast]

Thanks, I'll go check it out. Here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=781985

That thread >>>>> this thread

 

[45408]

1) I can almost guarantee you won't remember most of the material come step 1 (considering I feel like I've thoroughly forgotten 99% of the material that was on my metabolism/cell bio test 4 weeks ago... and even more about anatomy 8 weeks ago; plus, at my medical school, second year basically refreshes what you learn first year in order to go delve into systems-based curriculum)

What?? Step 1 is all about that material, so either you're going to fail, or you're vastly overstating how much you've forgotten.

2) Barely passing still requires a SUBSTANTIAL amount of studying (I know some people in my class who were studying 12-18 hours a day for anatomy and who barely pulled off the required 60%)

60% is much higher than a 35%.

My school stresses that becoming worn out and jaded doesn't make for good doctors (even if they know a few more trivial facts); becoming a whole person to relate to your patients is a much better use of time.

This sounds like something they would tell first and second year med students.

 

[45408]

In addition, schools that have grades tend to have students that are on average slightly weaker academically. It is expected that these students would be more stressed by the medical school workload. The real question is do the academically stronger students who go to graded schools feel more stressed than their counterparts in ungraded schools?

What are you basing this on? No one has posted more than about a dozen schools in the "P/F-no ranking" list, and it's not exactly a definitive list.

Can we please get some perspective from someone who actually attends a letter grade based med school? It seems like most of the posters here are either med students with a P/F system or premeds, so I'd just like to hear some other med students experiences if possible.

I had a graded school, and I think you guys are all worked up over nothing.