A Year Off?

[Katatonic]

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Thanks to everyone for the advice about the MD/PhD programs, now I'm in a bit of a situation. Assuming I want to go ahead and apply MSTP, I may need to take a year off but I'm not sure. I've been working in a lab (at my top choice school) since last May. So, that's about 9 months of lab time there, but very little of it has been hands on research, mostly making protein gels, backing up plasmids. Actually research experience I've gotten was the tissue culture work I got to do for a few months. I know this is a pathetic amount compared to most MSTP applicants, so should I cut my losses and not even apply this year? Take another year to get on a few projects and such? I read in the sticky that ~2 years is the average for applicants.

 

[tiamat360]

I think you may have to take a year off, if you want to be a competitive candidate. At the very least, the applicants I've met on interviews (as well as myself) have been involved in one or more significant projects, rather than simply doing lab maintenance work.

One possibility would be to talk to your PI and see about getting set up with your own project or significantly helping a grad student's or postdoc's project. If you get started on that ASAP, you may still be able to be competitive for the upcoming cycle.

Point is, having performed research on a cohesive project is integral to a successful application, even if a publication doesn't result from it. Just making gels/doing tissue culture isn't going to cut it.

 

[Katatonic]

Thanks. I just recently spoke to my PI about this, and he really wants me to get involved with one of the postdocs projects. He says I won't be able to do anything of my own, since they don't really have the time/money, but I figure helping a postdoc with a project is fine. There are actually two projects he said I could get involved with, but we'll see how timing works out.

Even if I start working on these soon though, I doubt I could get the LOR's required, especially since the LOR's from the people I work with would only be beneficial to me AFTER I've been helping them with their research for some time. I feel like if I choose this path, a year off may be the best thing so that I can take the MCAT a bit later, get some shadowing in, and get everything lined up great for 2011. But who knows, I may push on and see if anything miraculous happens for 2010.

 

[NiCad089]

Thanks. I just recently spoke to my PI about this, and he really wants me to get involved with one of the postdocs projects. He says I won't be able to do anything of my own, since they don't really have the time/money, but I figure helping a postdoc with a project is fine. There are actually two projects he said I could get involved with, but we'll see how timing works out.

Even if I start working on these soon though, I doubt I could get the LOR's required, especially since the LOR's from the people I work with would only be beneficial to me AFTER I've been helping them with their research for some time. I feel like if I choose this path, a year off may be the best thing so that I can take the MCAT a bit later, get some shadowing in, and get everything lined up great for 2011. But who knows, I may push on and see if anything miraculous happens for 2010.

I think you should definitely try for 2010. You never know what could happen. You would definitely be in a stronger position after the year off, but you might be able to get accepted if you apply broadly. Good Luck!!

 

[gstrub]

Apply now...why not? It doesn't seem like you have any flags that need resolving from now until next year, just improving your CV. The risk/reward ratio for you seems to favor that course of action. Worst case scenario, it demonstrates your dedication for the next application cycle. Just my opinion...
-G

 

[cyclin M]

Hey guys looks like my GPA will only be about 3.4 when I apply. I have a lot of research experience and no MCAT score yet. Should I take a year off to bring my GPA up and over 3.5-3.6? Will this even make a difference?

 

[fastrandstrongr]

Hey guys looks like my GPA will only be about 3.4 when I apply. I have a lot of research experience and no MCAT score yet. Should I take a year off to bring my GPA up and over 3.5-3.6? Will this even make a difference?

you seem to be in my position... my gpa was about 3.4 when i applied, mcat was very "meh" but i was able to get accepted by the grace of my research. i'd say give it a shot... you never know. if you smoke the mcat you'll have a pretty good chance being accepted. apply early, get good LORs, etc etc.

 

[cyclin M]

you seem to be in my position... my gpa was about 3.4 when i applied, mcat was very "meh" but i was able to get accepted by the grace of my research. i'd say give it a shot... you never know. if you smoke the mcat you'll have a pretty good chance being accepted. apply early, get good LORs, etc etc.

Thank you sir, sounds like a plan.

 

[itsallthesame]

You may yet consider taking a year off for a few reasons that I will mention:

You are about to embark on a very, very long career journey. While you'd probably (really should?) work hard during a year "off" doing research, it'll probably be a little less stress that medical school.

You are only young and in your twenties for 10 years. Once you go to md/phd school, it gets serious and you'll be busy. You'll get vacations, but you'll always have boards, your thesis, boards, residency, grants, etc in the back of your mind.

Now, what are the downsides? You "waste" a year of earning potential and being a doc. Yeah, we all want to get there, but what's the rush?

Upsides? You almost certainly won't be a worse applicant. That means you'll either get into the same or a better med school. What's a year if you get into a much better school? You get to do research full, full time for an extended period of time and make sure you like that life style + you'll probably have some free time to do a little more shadowing of docs.

Now, I'm not suggesting you slack off. By all means, work a LOT. But even if you work as much or more than you do during your PhD studies, you'll probably make more $ and don't have to stress quite as much. Now, the applications thing... time off and you don't have to worry about interviews during finals, stressing during classes, finishing secondaries while in school, etc. AND... when you're making money it'll be easier to pay for apps (EXPENSIVE). Unless you grow money, it's not a good financial idea to apply to medical school twice.

And last, applying to medical school blows. Depending upon your personality, you'll spend a weekend to a quarter year studying for the mcat, the same writing your personal statement. Then those two other md/phd essays. Then secondaries that range from a few lines to mini novels. Especially with md/phd, figuring out who is at each school that you want to go to could help. You do NOT want to do this twice or do it and end up thinking for the next 8 years that if you'd only taken a year off you'd be at a better school.

So yeah, you could apply asap, do your best and take what you get. Or, you could take a year, have that much more time to work on your application and make it killer.... you'll probably get into either the same or a better program AND... you'll be better off financially... but most of all, you'll be able to enjoy a bit of your twenties with a little less stress.

 

[cyclin M]

You know what "its all the same" I definitely see the logic behind your post and I've considered this many times in my head. Rereading your post has made me reconsider yet again.

In my mind the BEST path for me would be to take a year off and solidify my app with a higher GPA, more papers, and more clinical experience. I hope to use this year to do a fellowship of some sort.

Here is a brief overview of my research experience: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=581426

Keeping that in mind, and because now I am seriously considering a year off, I would like to know your opinions on what I should do in that year off:

1. get a masters
2. just continue research in a lab and clinical volunteering, etc.
3. do a fellowship (ie. gates/fulbright/marshall/etc)

The only thing REALLY keeping me back from taking this year off is pressure from my family who will probably be pissed I am taking a year off. I know they iwll not understand, but my gut and brain both tell me this is the best option for my life. So now it is up to me to decide what I will do in this year off.

 

[fastrandstrongr]

You know what "its all the same" I definitely see the logic behind your post and I've considered this many times in my head. Rereading your post has made me reconsider yet again.

In my mind the BEST path for me would be to take a year off and solidify my app with a higher GPA, more papers, and more clinical experience. I hope to use this year to do a fellowship of some sort.

Here is a brief overview of my research experience: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=581426

Keeping that in mind, and because now I am seriously considering a year off, I would like to know your opinions on what I should do in that year off:

1. get a masters
2. just continue research in a lab and clinical volunteering, etc.
3. do a fellowship (ie. gates/fulbright/marshall/etc)

The only thing REALLY keeping me back from taking this year off is pressure from my family who will probably be pissed I am taking a year off. I know they iwll not understand, but my gut and brain both tell me this is the best option for my life. So now it is up to me to decide what I will do in this year off.

dont let family pressures weigh in on your decision. during your year off, you will have to markedly improve your application - clinical work, lots of research, volunteering, that whole bit... on top of improving your GPA, which is never a given by itself.

i dont know if this is ever suggested, but why not toss out a few feelers this year? meaning apply to ~5 schools that you think you have a shot at and see what happens. its kind of like playing russian roulette (but with a much higher capacity barrel). personally, ive never been a fan of taking years off between schooling, so if i were in your position i'd still apply. take that advice with a grain of salt, of course 🙂

 

[fairalexfield]

It seems that taking a year off might be a good idea to boost your research credentials. This is absolutely crucial. Being able to talk about your own personal research experiences and showing a high level of critical thinking at your interviews is of the utmost importance. Plus, you'll have a great letter of recommendation (assuming all goes well) from someone who can talk first hand about your qualities as a scientist.

Also, think carefully before you decide to apply or not this year as some have suggested. It's not easy to just throw a few apps out there. Take it from someone who has applied in two application cycles, reapplying is horrible. I wish I had just taken a year off. The MD/PhD application cycle is horrific and to go through the process twice with little to no break in between can really burn you out. I feel as though I recently crawled out of a deep dark hole after applying to schools for over a year and a half.

I've really enjoyed my year off and I would recommend it to anyone trying to do the MSTP. As people have said, you'll get little to no stress-free time during the next eight years so it's nice to be able to relax and enjoy life. Also, since you don't have much research experience, maybe you'll do it for a year and decide you actually don't like it and would rather head for the MD. Conversely, maybe you'll do some shadowing and realize the clinic just isn't for you and you'll go for the PhD. Also, applying to schools with finals/thesis and all that (which I did) was awful. It was much easier applying without these burdens.

In the end, the decisions up to you and it's something you should think long and hard about before committing to the application cycle.

 

[Neuronix]

you'll get little to no stress-free time during the next eight years

You can get it if you try hard enough 😉 There is something called "balance" in this field that is being tossed out the window and you really have to fight for. During my program I have visited dozens of countries, skied dozens of weekends, gone to the beach many times, etc etc etc... I have taken months off here and there and even a year off. Life doesn't necessarily stop--though sometimes it has to, which I find unfortunate. Between your graduate school advisor pressuring you to work as much as possible because the funding situation is grim, clinics pressuring you to work 100 hours a week for an H grade so you can get the residency you want, internship using you as an indentured servant, it can be hard... But you should try to be in a location with the things you like to do if you're a person who wants a life outside of the hospital. Not everyone cares about life outside the lab/hospital, which is okay. That mentality is probably the most successful one. I couldn't do it.

I really don't have much to add to the op's original question. You can see the range of opinions in this thread and they're all right. I took a year off between undergrad and MD/PhD and I had more research than that. I'd probably recommend a year off for you if you want to be sure you'll get in and get in somewhere in the top 20. Will you get in without it? It's possible, but who knows how likely.

 

[itsallthesame]

1. get a masters
2. just continue research in a lab and clinical volunteering, etc.
3. do a fellowship (ie. gates/fulbright/marshall/etc)

1. I almost got a masters and am glad that I didn't. I don't think it would have put me into better programs, I would have spent more time in class and less time in lab, and I wouldn't have made close to what I make as a tech. Not to mention that many master's programs actually cost you money.
2. This is a great idea! Depending on the school that you work at, a common benefit is free classes. Sure you won't get a degree attached, but you can take a grad class or two with little to no pressure and for free!
3. If you can get one, I can't imagine this is a bad option either. A good enough fellowship (although I am kinda talking out my arse here) would probably be something to put on your resume for a long time?

Lastly, to echo other people... your family might not be supportive because they think you are just trying to have fun, not be serious with your career, yada yade. Do your best to explain (this can be a little bullish exaggeration, but how will they know) that you've got something good going on in your current lab and that if you finish your project, which might take a few years, you'll have a publication record that will get you a better post-doc/professorship. That way, you are furthering your career by staying in your lab...

 

[cyclin M]

1. I almost got a masters and am glad that I didn't. I don't think it would have put me into better programs, I would have spent more time in class and less time in lab, and I wouldn't have made close to what I make as a tech. Not to mention that many master's programs actually cost you money.
2. This is a great idea! Depending on the school that you work at, a common benefit is free classes. Sure you won't get a degree attached, but you can take a grad class or two with little to no pressure and for free!
3. If you can get one, I can't imagine this is a bad option either. A good enough fellowship (although I am kinda talking out my arse here) would probably be something to put on your resume for a long time?

Lastly, to echo other people... your family might not be supportive because they think you are just trying to have fun, not be serious with your career, yada yade. Do your best to explain (this can be a little bullish exaggeration, but how will they know) that you've got something good going on in your current lab and that if you finish your project, which might take a few years, you'll have a publication record that will get you a better post-doc/professorship. That way, you are furthering your career by staying in your lab...

Thanks for the input. I think I just need to explain to them that I will have a much better chance if I apply with a year off...dammit I really need to decide soon like within the next month or so. I've ruled out #1 right now since you bring up a good point about classes. My choices are narrowed down to 2 and 3 now and hopefully I will get a fellowship so I can use that as a legit reason to take a year off that my parents will accept. Of course, I could just not care and do what is best, which would be to take a year off, focusing on research and putting in more hours of volunteering which I haven't had a lot of yet. I actually haven't even told them about this or that I'm even considering it, but I know myself best and what my real chances are.

 

[HansSpemann]

Thanks for the input. I think I just need to explain to them that I will have a much better chance if I apply with a year off...dammit I really need to decide soon like within the next month or so. I've ruled out #1 right now since you bring up a good point about classes. My choices are narrowed down to 2 and 3 now and hopefully I will get a fellowship so I can use that as a legit reason to take a year off that my parents will accept. Of course, I could just not care and do what is best, which would be to take a year off, focusing on research and putting in more hours of volunteering which I haven't had a lot of yet. I actually haven't even told them about this or that I'm even considering it, but I know myself best and what my real chances are.

Unfortunately, the apps for all of those fellowships were MONTHS ago.

If you decided to take time off, which I think is a great idea, do realize that unless you do an IRTA at the NIH, most labs are looking for a two year commitment.

 

[cyclin M]

Unfortunately, the apps for all of those fellowships were MONTHS ago.

If you decided to take time off, which I think is a great idea, do realize that unless you do an IRTA at the NIH, most labs are looking for a two year commitment.

Yeah but I'm not applying this year. I'm applying next cycle so the app deadline is actually a couple months away for me.

In addition, even though most labs are looking for a 2 year commitment, if I get a Gates/Rhodes I am free to combine that with my PhD training for MD/PhD.

If there are complications with combining these, then there is no way I am going to do those fellowships because (a) my MCAT score would have expired, and (b) I will not delay my MD/PhD by 2 full years.

Currently I am looking into the fellowships and just taking a year off doing research and waiting for my senior grades to boost my GPA.

 

[HansSpemann]

Yeah but I'm not applying this year. I'm applying next cycle so the app deadline is actually a couple months away for me.

In addition, even though most labs are looking for a 2 year commitment, if I get a Gates/Rhodes I am free to combine that with my PhD training for MD/PhD.

If there are complications with combining these, then there is no way I am going to do those fellowships because (a) my MCAT score would have expired, and (b) I will not delay my MD/PhD by 2 full years.

Currently I am looking into the fellowships and just taking a year off doing research and waiting for my senior grades to boost my GPA.

OK, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I'm going to give you some straight advice

If you have a low GPA, you will not make the cut-off for being NOMINATED for a Gates/Rhodes. You can also try for a Fulbright, but once again, having a low GPA puts you at a significant disadvantage. Most college seniors win Fulbrights to either teach English or take calsses; very, very few win fellowships to do independant research. During my senior year, I applied for a Fulbright to do research in Greece, and amazingly, I was a finalist, although i did not receive the final award. I should note that I made it as far as I did in the fellowship process because I had research out the butt, i.e. two pubs and great recs from my PIs.

Like I said before, no one is going to hire you for one year. In fact, the university I work for, UCSF, REQUIRES tech jobs to be for a minimum of two years.

MCAT scores are valid for three years, so if you take it your senior year, you will still be able to apply during your second year off. Or even better, you can take the MCAT during your first year off because you'll have ample time to study without having to also juggle classes.

 

[cyclin M]

OK, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I'm going to give you some straight advice

If you have a low GPA, you will not make the cut-off for being NOMINATED for a Gates/Rhodes. You can also try for a Fulbright, but once again, having a low GPA puts you at a significant disadvantage. Most college seniors win Fulbrights to either teach English or take calsses; very, very few win fellowships to do independant research. During my senior year, I applied for a Fulbright to do research in Greece, and amazingly, I was a finalist, although i did not receive the final award. I should note that I made it as far as I did in the fellowship process because I had research out the butt, i.e. two pubs and great recs from my PIs.

Like I said before, no one is going to hire you for one year. In fact, the university I work for, UCSF, REQUIRES tech jobs to be for a minimum of two years.

MCAT scores are valid for three years, so if you take it your senior year, you will still be able to apply during your second year off. Or even better, you can take the MCAT during your first year off because you'll have ample time to study without having to also juggle classes.

No worries, I'm a proponent of the blunt hard facts, no dancing around the message. 👍

Anyways, so I actually spoke to my fellowships center on campus and they were the ones that recommended that I apply ot the Gates Cambridge. Not Rhodes (GPA cut off), not Marshall (GPA cut off).

But they said Gates is heavily research based and if I can find people on the inside that can support me, then I will be a good candidate. Not the best candidate beacuse of my low GPA, but I will be a good candidate because like you I have research "out the butt" as well (see here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7406484&postcount=1). That said, I am prepared to accept rejection and whatnot, but it seems like something at least to try for and if I don't get it, I'll fall back on my plan of just continuing research and volunteering, etc.

 

[mtlove]

Unfortunately, the apps for all of those fellowships were MONTHS ago.

If you decided to take time off, which I think is a great idea, do realize that unless you do an IRTA at the NIH, most labs are looking for a two year commitment.

This is untrue about IRTAs! A lot of NIH labs require 2yr commitments. All three of the labs that offered me an IRTA position required 2yrs (I wanted to stay 1yr). A lot of the labs that I know allowed people to stay for less than 2yrs treated that person more like a tech (they did not have their own project or do anything of real substance). I am happy I joined a lab with a two year requirement for this reason (you still have to watch out for labs that only treat you as a tech).

OP: If you are going to take time off, I would count on doing 2yrs off simply because it is hard to find a position for only a year and you will get a lot more out of the experience. If you can find a position for a year or less, then go with it.