Abandon ship? Possible to move to Sweden, Australia, Iceland, ect...?

[Habeed]

Out of sheer curiosity, does anyone know, in general, how difficult it is for a physician who is board certified in the United States to move to a different country and practice medicine there? I know that doctors who come from foreign countries to the United States often have to repeat residency from scratch, no matter their prior experiences. Furthermore, they usually can't get competitive residencies such as surgery or radiology, even if they were a fully trained and experienced physician in their home country.

Is it usually true vice-versa? Could an American doctor abandon ship and head for Australia or Sweden without having to repeat all their post-graduate training?

Please don't take this as too inflammatory. Yes, the U.N. developement index as well as various stories seem to indicate that some of these countries are 'better' than the United States. I'm also aware that while it seems like the U.S. is heading down the tubes, it probably isn't. I'm just curious if it is possible to 'jump ship' if one wanted a fresh start in a new society without giving up years trapped in the PGE system.

You know, take those people who say "if it's really so much better in <insert nice country here> why don't you just move there?" at their word.

Also, dodge the coming healthcare crisis. And enjoy the laxer hours, slimmer women, more vacation time, and higher taxes that these other countries are famed for. Also, the negligible crime rates and the smaller populations of obese, poor, uneducated, and unemployed people.

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[Pinkertinkle]

Iceland is a country heading down the tubes.

 

[Habeed]

I'm curious as to what has gone wrong with it. When I wrote this post, ironically, I had Iceland in mind. I had just read about how it has essentially no crime, low taxes, decent per capita income, a very generous social welfare system, and smoking hot nymphomaniac blonde/redhead women. Oh, and 9 months paid leave for having kids that is split between the mother AND the father.

Furthermore, it talked about how Iceland is crammed full of smart, well educated people who make it possible. That the reason the generous welfare system doesn't drag that state down is that there is not a huge unproductive 'underclass' that uses welfare as a hammock.

It did say that they have many banks incorporated in Iceland, and so the current crisis would bring those down. BUT...does Iceland itself have 'toxic mortgage' assets? Or is that all the fault of the U.S.? I would guess the latter...

Basically, is the country being tossed around by the current recession, with good fundamentals? I would say the "fundamentals" of the U.S. are on much shakier ground. The federal government owes an obscene amount of money that it never really 'needed' to borrow (it should have raised taxes instead 20 years ago), and paying the interest on the debt forces us to take out MORE debt. (if we didn't have to blow 200 billion a year on interest payments, we could pay for the current federal spending without going into debt)

Science and Research is headed down the tubes fast, with money more and more scarce and not enough scientists in the first place. There's a huge underclass. Capitalism run amock has raced to the bottom and made everyone fat. (since food that contains corn syrup is the cheapest to make and tastes good. Note, I am not fat : I just think that the American food industry is 50% responsible for the obesity epidemic). Oh, and the medical system is fixing to run aground. Critical shortages of doctors and nurses expected, prices are already obscenely inflated, wars between insurance companies, health insurance premiums are unaffordable for half the population, and the federal government can't even balance a checkbook (so they can't run it)

So yeah, it looks like the United States is gradually sinking. It won't go under, but a lot of problems will likely get worse.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Iceland is impossible to move to. They simply don't accept immigrants. They are an ethnically homogeneous country of 276,000 people, all of whom are descended from Norwegian men and kidnapped Irish female slaves (so actually over 1/2 the population has dark hair, like the Celts) who are immensely proud of their culture, language and isolation.

Less than a century ago everyone was wasting away in a sod longhouse, miles from the nearest homestead. They've transformed themselves into a modern, techno-economy with a high standard of living (wealth is more evenly spread here than in any other country... which is easy when you're a homogeneous nation of 276,000). Do you think that happened because the world suddenly wanted more fish? Hence toxic mortgage assets.

And in the UK/Commonwealth countries, you have to pass their equivalent of the USMLEs (which is much easier), and your training is deemed equivalent.

 

[dr0277341283141]

Actually, this is a good question. I have a friend in France who knows of lots of positions open. How do I get a residency in France? What boards must one take?

Oh, and I do speak French, not fluently, but I do read it fluently. I imagine in six months there my speech would be fluent.

 

[dragonfly99]

dr02,
France is one of the EU countries, and I've heard it's extremely hard to come in from outside the EU and get any type of residency there, though I don't know the details. Basically, the EU countries prefer any student who went to school somewhere in the EU vs. any outside-trained med student.

I've heard the gov't in Iceland is broke, in part because of the generous social welfare system there...

 

[Doowai]

Actually, this is a good question. I have a friend in France who knows of lots of positions open. How do I get a residency in France? What boards must one take?

Oh, and I do speak French, not fluently, but I do read it fluently. I imagine in six months there my speech would be fluent.

Oh yuck, there is hardly a EU country I like less. I cannot imagine a USA citizen going there. They are so critical of the US, I doubt I could deal with them calmly. They have a much longer history than the US, but have never had a significant black leader despite having roughly the same demographics(black population is estimated to be between 8-20%, there is no exact way to tell since they do not do a census based on race)- the only real significant racial demographic difference is Latino. In fact only 1 of 555 lower Parliment leaders is black - yet they criticize the US as racially narrow minded. We have and have had black leaders at every level. I could not stand to listen to their oui oui oui whining and criticizing - and even Kip Dynamite could beat up a Savateur hahahaha. If I started with the battle of Saratoga at the revolutionary war I could continue for an easy hour on why I dislike the French - but would no doubt end up banned again.

 

[frank51]

Oh yuck, there is hardly a EU country I like less. I cannot imagine a USA citizen going there. They are so critical of the US, I doubt I could deal with them calmly. They have a much longer history than the US, but have never had a significant black leader despite having roughly the same demographics(black population is estimated to be between 8-20%, there is no exact way to tell since they do not do a census based on race)- the only real significant racial demographic difference is Latino. In fact only 1 of 555 lower Parliment leaders is black - yet they criticize as racially narrow minded. We have and have had black leaders at every level. I could not stand to listen to their oui oui oui whining and criticizing - and even Kip Dynamite could beat up a Savateur hahahaha. If I started with the battle of Saratoga at the revolutionary war I could continue for an easy hour on why I dislike the French - but would no doubt end up banned again.

Comments like this will end up changing the topic all together.

 

[Habeed]

Yes, and no. This topic was partially the question of CAN you do it, and partially the question of SHOULD you do it. If it turns out these 'wonderful' countries actually suck compared to good ole Texas, USA then maybe you shouldn't.

As for Iceland : I read they take a few hundred permanent foreigner immigrants a year. That foreigners are now 6% of the population.

 

[HCE]

Oh yuck, there is hardly a EU country I like less. I cannot imagine a USA citizen going there. They are so critical of the US, I doubt I could deal with them calmly. They have a much longer history than the US, but have never had a significant black leader despite having roughly the same demographics(black population is estimated to be between 8-20%, there is no exact way to tell since they do not do a census based on race)- the only real significant racial demographic difference is Latino. In fact only 1 of 555 lower Parliment leaders is black - yet they criticize the US as racially narrow minded. We have and have had black leaders at every level. I could not stand to listen to their oui oui oui whining and criticizing - and even Kip Dynamite could beat up a Savateur hahahaha. If I started with the battle of Saratoga at the revolutionary war I could continue for an easy hour on why I dislike the French - but would no doubt end up banned again.

"your mother goes to college" - Kip

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Beware-- those stats are diluted by guest workers and US soldiers stationed at Keflavik.

Most of the resident foreigners were admitted under political asylum, not immigration.

 

[Old_Mil]

Out of sheer curiosity, does anyone know, in general, how difficult it is for a physician who is board certified in the United States to move to a different country and practice medicine there? I know that doctors who come from foreign countries to the United States often have to repeat residency from scratch, no matter their prior experiences. Furthermore, they usually can't get competitive residencies such as surgery or radiology, even if they were a fully trained and experienced physician in their home country.

Is it usually true vice-versa? Could an American doctor abandon ship and head for Australia or Sweden without having to repeat all their post-graduate training?

Please don't take this as too inflammatory. Yes, the U.N. developement index as well as various stories seem to indicate that some of these countries are 'better' than the United States. I'm also aware that while it seems like the U.S. is heading down the tubes, it probably isn't. I'm just curious if it is possible to 'jump ship' if one wanted a fresh start in a new society without giving up years trapped in the PGE system.

You know, take those people who say "if it's really so much better in <insert nice country here> why don't you just move there?" at their word.

Also, dodge the coming healthcare crisis. And enjoy the laxer hours, slimmer women, more vacation time, and higher taxes that these other countries are famed for. Also, the negligible crime rates and the smaller populations of obese, poor, uneducated, and unemployed people.

Twenty years ago, what you're asking would have been a ridiculous question to ask. Today, it's quite relevant. Especially if a hybrid healthcare system comes to the US in which physicians are reimbursed with a nationalized health care model but still left open to the predation by the legal industry.

As for leaving, it's possible...but not easy. Most other countries have taken extensive steps to preserve high paying jobs for their own citizens.

As I've thought about this myself, it would be interesting to have input from some people who have done this.

I'm thinking of Canada, New Zealand, and Ireland.

 

[Pilot Doc]

I've talked to some recruiters for 1-2 year locums gigs in Australia & NZ. If you are board certified, it's quite easy to get set up working in their public health system. Sounds like you can stay indefinitely and there is the potential to transfer your credentials so that you can do the more lucrative private work.

 

[DonStracci]

I have to admit, I've looked into this topic. I can see myself maybe practicing in Scandinavia someday in my future... it can be done. I do speak Swedish but I'd definitely have to gain fluency in medical terminology.

 

[dr0277341283141]

The times I have spent in France have been some of the best in my life.

I've never heard of Kip Dynamite, but I do know who Edith Piaf is.

Once I had to visit a doctor in the XIVeme arrondissement in Paris. I got to go first because I was sick. The other people were there probably for some chronic condition like hypertension or diabetes. There were three or four other people in the waiting room, not a long wait, anyway. There was no nurse, maybe just a receptionist, I cannot remember exactly. As I entered his room, I thanked all the people in the waiting room for getting to go first, but they gestured in such a way that it was natural and proper. There appeared to be just a waiting room and his office, which was in the adjacent room. It was actually an office, it had a big wooden desk like an office, and was spacious with a wooden floor, but somewhat dimly lit because of the endless March rain. It had a wooden examination table in front of the desk. I felt like I was actually at a real doctor's office, not like the way I feel here in the USA, being shuffled between various people, encountering endless synthetic devices and being overtested. He wanted to know why I came to his office instead of to the American health offices, wherever they were, I still don't know. He was gracefully apologetic that he would have to charge me money because I wasn't a French citizen, and after discovering it was 100Fr, which was $20 then, I sort of laughed inside, because that would have been my copay back here. At the end he wrote me a couple of prescriptions and sent me on my way, giving me directions to the pharmacy. The whole experience was sort of startling, because it actually felt humane, which is something we supposedly strive for here in America, but seem to be woefully gyrating away from.

This is why I would prefer to live and work in the French system, especially, as mentioned above, we'll have litigation here with no reward.

 

[traxtar511]

Don't forget that Iceland's currency is now garbage. The country's three main banks are full of worthless debt and the country's support of these bank's growth will hurt Iceland for years.

 

[Miami_med]

Don't forget that Iceland's currency is now garbage. The country's three main banks are full of worthless debt and the country's support of these bank's growth will hurt Iceland for years.

I was also going to point out that Iceland is one of the few countries that makes US monetary policy look good, and that's scary.

France is still the only country I know where people riot when the "evil conservatives" make it possible for an employer to fire an employee within the first two years of employment. Be careful who you hire over there.

Most Scandanavian Countries pay physicians horribly. You would make more money by staying stateside and getting a job as a plumber in many cases. That's not a joke or an exaggeration.

Physician pay still tends to be higher in the US. The next best market would be Japan, though it's hard to break in there if you're not Japanese. Canada and Britain are also reasonable choices financially, though getting into Britain from the US is not the easiest feat.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

I was also going to point out that Iceland is one of the few countries that makes US monetary policy look good, and that's scary.

France is still the only country I know where people riot when the "evil conservatives" make it possible for an employer to fire an employee within the first two years of employment. Be careful who you hire over there.

Most Scandanavian Countries pay physicians horribly. You would make more money by staying stateside and getting a job as a plumber in many cases. That's not a joke or an exaggeration.

Physician pay still tends to be higher in the US. The next best market would be Japan, though it's hard to break in there if you're not Japanese. Canada and Britain are also reasonable choices financially, though getting into Britain from the US is not the easiest feat.

I once played golf with three Swedish doctors and all they did was complain about the way they were treated by their own health care system. One of them was an MD/PhD and he became a ship's doctor on a cruise line to get away from the bureaucrats and poor pay.

I've spent some time in France and enjoyed it immensely but the place is awful for doctors. The pay is lousy and in many places unsanitary. Yuck.

 

[Doowai]

Other countries I have considered possibly practicing for a short time include somewhere in the Caribbean and England. I spoke with MD's who were USA citizens practicing on the island I went to school in and they made a fortune in cash - English speaking tourists wanted to see an American when they got sick on vacation - no insurance all cash. Also England - mostly because my son loved in there when he traveled there a couple of years ago, and would like to live there awhile and so what the heck. I still have relatives there supposedly. I personally prefer Spain, but a few years in the UK would be cool.

But France - damn. You know who makes the word "Doctor" sound cool? Mexicans. The word doctor sounds cool when they say it. But in French.... docteur. I mean, seriously...."docteur". The French are the only people who could take a cool word like "doctor" and pronounce it in such a way as to make it sound as if you are implying you wear lacey panties, eat snails and are afraid to get in a fight : "I cannot peek up zee surgical eenstrument... the spray on tan and moisturizing lotion makes my manly hands too slippereeee".

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Most Scandanavian Countries pay physicians horribly. You would make more money by staying stateside and getting a job as a plumber in many cases. That's not a joke or an exaggeration.

Physician pay still tends to be higher in the US. The next best market would be Japan, though it's hard to break in there if you're not Japanese. Canada and Britain are also reasonable choices financially, though getting into Britain from the US is not the easiest feat.

Pay is significantly higher in the US, but we work much much harder, accrue a great deal of debt in our training, and bear many of the risks of private enterprise. In Scandinavia you are paid roughly the same as anyone else who works 35 hours a week and doesn't have any start-up costs.

The terms of my Scholarship to Britain let me have full recourse to the NHS, so I used it routinely. For health maintenance and minor illnesses it was wonderful-- much like what Doc Many Numbers described-- but woe betide you if you had something serious, required a procedure, a specialist, a hospitalization, or to see anyone after 4 PM.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

But France - damn. You know who makes the word "Doctor" sound cool? Mexicans. The word doctor sounds cool when they say it. But in French.... docteur. I mean, seriously...."docteur". The French are the only people who could take a cool word like "doctor" and pronounce it in such a way as to make it sound as if you are implying you wear lacey panties, eat snails and are afraid to get in a fight : "I cannot peek up zee surgical eenstrument... the spray on tan and moisturizing lotion makes my manly hands too slippereeee".

Incidentally, Doowai, "docteur" is not the everyday word for 'doctor' in French (that would be 'médecin' for a man, and rarely 'médecine' for a woman-- most say 'médecin'). Docteur is a title and rarely written out in full, just like we rarely write "Doctor Oz."

 

[Miami_med]

Pay is significantly higher in the US, but we work much much harder, accrue a great deal of debt in our training, and bear many of the risks of private enterprise. In Scandinavia you are paid roughly the same as anyone else who works 35 hours a week and doesn't have any start-up costs.

The terms of my Scholarship to Britain let me have full recourse to the NHS, so I used it routinely. For health maintenance and minor illnesses it was wonderful-- much like what Doc Many Numbers described-- but woe betide you if you had something serious, required a procedure, a specialist, a hospitalization, or to see anyone after 4 PM.

That's true about Scandinavia, except that the OP is talking about jumping ship after training here, which means the worst of both worlds financially.

 

[earmuff]

I posted a link in the Canada forum to a recruiter in Ontario (healthforceontario)

They have recently changed the rules for US board certified physicians to be able to practice in Ontario... No extra stuff any more. No exams, etc...

Starting pay for pathologists is in the mid 300's...

 

[dragonfly99]

Damn...I should have been a pathologist...LOL.

 

[superoxide]

Oh yuck, there is hardly a EU country I like less. I cannot imagine a USA citizen going there. They are so critical of the US, I doubt I could deal with them calmly. They have a much longer history than the US, but have never had a significant black leader despite having roughly the same demographics(black population is estimated to be between 8-20%, there is no exact way to tell since they do not do a census based on race)- the only real significant racial demographic difference is Latino. In fact only 1 of 555 lower Parliment leaders is black - yet they criticize the US as racially narrow minded. We have and have had black leaders at every level. I could not stand to listen to their oui oui oui whining and criticizing - and even Kip Dynamite could beat up a Savateur hahahaha. If I started with the battle of Saratoga at the revolutionary war I could continue for an easy hour on why I dislike the French - but would no doubt end up banned again.

You have to realize that although France has a longer history than the U.S, the U.S has a much longer history with African-Americans and immigration when compared with France and other E.U countries. The election of an African American as president is no doubt historic, but how long did it take for it to happen? Black history in the U.S goes back to the early 1600s. So it took 400 years!

Widespread immigration to Europe (by non-caucasians) is a fairly recent phenomenon (post WWII) when guest workers from Turkey and some North African countries moved to Europe. So the comparison of the two countries is not a fair one. Give Europe a few more decades (not hundreds of years) and I am confident that something like what happened in the U.S will happen there as well. In general I find Europeans much more open minded, cultured, tolerant and progressive than Americans.

The nomination of the first woman candidate for president here in the U.S was considered historic as well, but the U.S is way behind other countries when it comes to that. Countries like Pakistan (Benazir Bhutto), India (Indira Gandhi), Germany (Angela Merkel), Great Britain (Margaret Thatcher), New Zealand (Helen Clark) and Norway (Gro Harlem Brundtland) have already had women as heads of state. I am sure there are several more examples - I just can't think of all of them off the top of my head. Having a woman run the country is old news to them.

Your statement about not being able to "deal with them calmly" only adds credibility to the image of the United States being an arrogant bully who needs to "deal with" people who don't agree with them. If that is the case, the French criticism is a valid one.

 

[Doowai]

You have to realize that although France has a longer history than the U.S, the U.S has a much longer history with African-Americans and immigration when compared with France and other E.U countries. The election of an African American as president is no doubt historic, but how long did it take for it to happen? Black history in the U.S goes back to the early 1600s. So it took 400 years!

Widespread immigration to Europe (by non-caucasians) is a fairly recent phenomenon (post WWII) when guest workers from Turkey and some North African countries moved to Europe. So the comparison of the two countries is not a fair one. Give Europe a few more decades (not hundreds of years) and I am confident that something like what happened in the U.S will happen there as well. In general I find Europeans much more open minded, cultured, tolerant and progressive than Americans.

.

That would be very interesting .... if it was true. Anthropologists pretty much accept the Grimaldi people (Africans) traveled extensively through all of Europe 40,000 years ago.

More cogent : Slavery of Africans existed in Europe prior to the colonization of the Americas ( http://www.freeessays.cc/db/44/smu185.shtml ) and the Europeans who settled here did not think slavery a strange thing at all, they were already accustomed to the idea. Slavery had become such a problem in France that it was initially outlawed in the early early early 1300's ( http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070624181246AA3DkXC ) , but became a problem again in the 1600's [1550?] when increasingly large numbers of black slaves were poured into France. So blacks/Africans/"people of color" have been a significant population of France at least as long as in this country - and actually even long before. France actually ENDED slavery in the mid 1800's (about the same time as the USA but also far earlier than the post-WWII influx you state erroneously ( http://www.aaregistry.com/detail.php?id=1775 ). The first slave auctions in the USA were actually held by the European Dutch and Portugues ( http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1h290.html ). So ..... nope, but thanks for trying.

However, African-Americans have been in France only since the 1800's ; http://www.discoverparis.net/newsletter.html?insight=3162993617777834 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans_in_France . So again, there were even African-Americans in France far before the post-WWII you claim, and African (slaves) HUNDREDS of years before that.

France..., more open minded and tolerant??? , well the blacks polled in France disagree http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6317799.stm and they actually feel it is getting worse in France. Worse. Repeat

Even the liberal media notes the harsh racism in France, with no black or Arab members of Parliment, and with the business community is at least as bad , and is in fact illustrated to be "more toxic" in France http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1574817,00.html

I could go on and on shooting more holes in your post than Swiss cheese, as it is a complete error start to finish, sauteed in the sort of snobby arrogance I find typical of the French - but I am just an ignorant Caribbean FMG making wild spurious unsubstantiated comments

 

[Doowai]

Incidentally, Doowai, "docteur" is not the everyday word for 'doctor' in French (that would be 'médecin' for a man, and rarely 'médecine' for a woman-- most say 'médecin'). Docteur is a title and rarely written out in full, just like we rarely write "Doctor Oz."

That would be very interesting if it was interesting

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

You have to realize that although France has a longer history than the U.S, the U.S has a much longer history with African-Americans and immigration when compared with France and other E.U countries. The election of an African American as president is no doubt historic, but how long did it take for it to happen? Black history in the U.S goes back to the early 1600s. So it took 400 years!

And Europe has never elected a non-European leader. Europe has never had a non-elected non-European leader (unless you're counting Ghengis Khan, the Moors, the Turks, and the Huns, or something like that).

Widespread immigration to Europe (by non-caucasians) is a fairly recent phenomenon (post WWII) when guest workers from Turkey and some North African countries moved to Europe. So the comparison of the two countries is not a fair one. Give Europe a few more decades (not hundreds of years) and I am confident that something like what happened in the U.S will happen there as well. In general I find Europeans much more open minded, cultured, tolerant and progressive than Americans.

Please. Europe has been exposed to Africans and Asians for centuries - from the time of the ancient Greeks. Ancient attitudes were considerably less racist than they were in the medieval period and beyond. Who do you think transported slaves to the Americas if not Europeans? Do you really think that Europeans kept no slaves of their own? I doubt an Arab, Pakistani, or Turk will ever become president/PM/chancellor of France, the UK, or Germany. Europeans are NOT more open-minded, cultured, tolerant, and progressive than Americans. I've known many and they have struck me as being more classist and elitist (looking at your parents/grandparents/family origins, name, etc., difficult for northern England people to get into elite southern schools like Cambridge and Oxford, etc.), more snobbish, and less tolerant of others than Americans. Xenophobia is rampant in both Eastern and Western Europe. Look at how difficult it is to become a citizen in Switzerland - the alleged pinnacle of tolerance and culture (according to you) - third generation people who were born there (and their parents), who speak only French/German/Italian - cannot become citizens because their blood is actually Turkish. Citizen by blood, no less. If you are a Bavarian walking around and talking in your Bavarian dialect in Rostock, Germany, you will be viewed with suspicion. If you are a Hungarian in Romania or Slovakia, expect backbiting comments. Heck, Belgium, the seat of NATO and the EU, is practically split over the issue of Flemish vs. Walloon. Do you really think such a society is going to be more tolerant of blacks and Arabs and Chinese than Americans?

The nomination of the first woman candidate for president here in the U.S was considered historic as well, but the U.S is way behind other countries when it comes to that. Countries like Pakistan (Benazir Bhutto), India (Indira Gandhi), Germany (Angela Merkel), Great Britain (Margaret Thatcher), New Zealand (Helen Clark) and Norway (Gro Harlem Brundtland) have already had women as heads of state. I am sure there are several more examples - I just can't think of all of them off the top of my head. Having a woman run the country is old news to them.

I don't know about Norway or New Zealand. However, for the other four cases, your argument falls. In the Indian subcontinent there is practically a tradition of male politicians' female relatives going for power and attaining it. They attained it not because these societies are progressive re: women (Pakistan!) but because of their male relatives. Bhutto's father was a politician. Gandhi's father was the famous Nehru. As for Merkel and Thatcher, they are/were chancellor/PM, so they were not directly elected as a president might be. Rather, they were heads of the parties that became the majority (or were able to form a majority coalition) within their parliaments. That's not at all analogous to a woman president being elected outright. And, by the way, the Hillary case would be pretty analogous to Indira Gandhi, to be honest, her having ridden on her husband's coattails and all.

Your statement about not being able to "deal with them calmly" only adds credibility to the image of the United States being an arrogant bully who needs to "deal with" people who don't agree with them. If that is the case, the French criticism is a valid one.

The French are a joke. They've been one since WWII. Their aspirations to importance on the world stage are mockable. Unlike the English, who actually had a world-wide empire at one point, the French were always second fiddle as colonizers and empire-builders, only slightly better than the Dutch and Italians. A certain Corsican tried to build an empire in Europe but was crushed by the Russians and British. The only two countries in Europe that have a serious chance at being major powers are Germany (by commandeering the EU) and Russia (by supplying resources to the EU and east Asia).

 

[Doowai]

The French are a joke. They've been one since WWII. Their aspirations to importance on the world stage are mockable. Unlike the English, who actually had a world-wide empire at one point, the French were always second fiddle as colonizers and empire-builders, only slightly better than the Dutch and Italians. .

The French delayed their alliance with us in the Revolutionary war until after the battle of Saratoga and it was clear we would probably win the war.

Anyway, I do think considering practicing in other countries is reasonable depending on what you ar looking for and comfortable with

 

[NonTradMed]

How is any of this historical commentary relevent to the OP's question? Most people who move from one politically stable country to another do so for economic reasons, they don't care if they can't "deal with" the country's politics as long as they can make a better life for themselves in their new country. I know that many Asians (China/India/Pakistan/Vietnam/etc) do not agree with US foreign policy, or many of the morals practiced here, but they come here for a better economic life anyways. Political matters rarely intrude on people's lives, but poverty is always strongly felt.

To the OP, I'm not sure if anyone can answer your questions in any great detail. Most US doctors practice in the US. Europe have a different system and, as others pointed out, training in the US and working in W. Europe embodies the worst of both words (high tuition and relatively low pay).

We are paid more here but we also shoulder most of the cost of education and startup costs. European doctors enjoy cheaper tuition and probably better working hours but their pay is also lower.

FWIW, some Canadian friends have told me that doctors in Canada do pretty well. And the education is transferable.

 

[cchoukal]

agree about Canada. A year or so ago, an anesthesiologist in Canada posted examples of what he billed over the course of doing locums for a week and implied that in Canada, you actually get paid what you bill. The amount, extrapolated over the course of a year, easily exceeded $300K.

 

[Doowai]

How is any of this historical commentary relevent to the OP's question? .

The OP's question had several facets - how hard would it be to transfer as well as the variables that came to their mind when someone said "why don't you move here its so much nicer" - and these variables included slimmer women, more vacation time etc.

As a US citizen in foreign land you also have to consider the sociopolitical climate - and the Frenchies often arrogantly assert their greater tolerance to Americans and how more open minded they are - I myself cannot stand their arrogance, especially when it has no basis - they have a much longer history of racism than the US, which many feel is more virulant and absolute. The relevance is - you have to be aware of the attitudes you will encounter. If you can handle the general populace constantly telling you that you are inferior and close minded - fine.

If knowing the truth that our country is way more tolerant (as evidenced by it truly being the only land where a person is free to become what they want - using the example of politics we have had blacks in every office now for decades - France has only one lower parlimentary leader in contrast), I could not smile and say "yup you are right, you are much better than me". Especially knowing that our country is truly a world player in every way while France is basically a 2nd class midieval hanger on in every way shape or form (athletically, world power, economically, culturally, medically etc etc etc etc) is intolerable. From the Tour De Lance to medical discovery , France is virtually not worth mentioning. Which would be okay - it has some cool history, The Louvre is worth seeing, Mont St.Michelle is unique etc - if they weren't so arrogant.

WHen you go to many other countries they are not so adamant about insulting you - but the French have this arrogant attitude that is ill-founded. Any American who would enjoy living there is an American who has a low self-esteem as a citizen, believing all the bad crap they have to say about this country. I would never want to be a citizen of another country, but might enjoy living in another country for a year or two (such as in the Caribbean or England) for the combination of weather (Caribbean not England), quick cash infusion (again Caribbean not England), and opportunity to bask in the culture (Caribbean, England or Spain). But to live in a country where the money is not all that good and where a people who excell at nothing prance around pretentiously (France, not England or Caribbean) is a nauseating idea.

The history is important because of how it colors their attitude and to see that there is nothing to substantiate their arrogance.

 

[NonTradMed]

As a US citizen in foreign land you also have to consider the sociopolitical climate - and the Frenchies often arrogantly assert their greater tolerance to Americans and how more open minded they are - I myself cannot stand their arrogance, especially when it has no basis - they have a much longer history of racism than the US, which many feel is more virulant and absolute. The relevance is - you have to be aware of the attitudes you will encounter. If you can handle the general populace constantly telling you that you are inferior and close minded - fine.

....

WHen you go to many other countries they are not so adamant about insulting you - but the French have this arrogant attitude that is ill-founded. Any American who would enjoy living there is an American who has a low self-esteem as a citizen, believing all the bad crap they have to say about this country. I would never want to be a citizen of another country, but might enjoy living in another country for a year or two (such as in the Caribbean or England) for the combination of weather (Caribbean not England), quick cash infusion (again Caribbean not England), and opportunity to bask in the culture (Caribbean, England or Spain). But to live in a country where the money is not all that good and where a people who excell at nothing prance around pretentiously (France, not England or Caribbean) is a nauseating idea.

The history is important because of how it colors their attitude and to see that there is nothing to substantiate their arrogance.

Well, I have never lived in France but I had a good friend who taught there for a year and she had no problems, even got herself a French boyfriend.

I guess the experience of another country is individual. Maybe you got a bad area of France when you lived there. I know that my parents could have had a worse experience living in the US had they initially moved to certain parts of the country when they first came here in the mid-80's. Thankfully, they took a job at college town which was very international and quite welcoming to foreigners.

I think most countries have varying degrees of xenophobia, location can define how you are treated.

 

[Doowai]

Well, I have never lived in France but I had a good friend who taught there for a year and she had no problems, even got herself a French boyfriend.

.

"Even" got herself a boyfriend?! Wow. Not quite like electing someone of African descent to Parliment, but still very open minded of the French to allow one of their citizens to date an American. Quite an honor I am sure. Was this "dating" a pilot program the country is experimenting with, or will they now allow French citizens to date foreigners all willy-nilly? Well....in any event... there you go. Changes my opinion of the French entirely.

 

[dragonfly99]

"Even" got herself a boyfriend?! Wow. Not quite like electing someone of African descent to Parliment, but still very open minded of the French to allow one of their citizens to date an American. Quite an honor I am sure. Was this "dating" a pilot program the country is experimenting with, or will they now allow French citizens to date foreigners all willy-nilly? Well....in any event... there you go. Changes my opinion of the French entirely.

Can we please try to keep this discussion civil and on track? It would be nice if more folks had been able/willing to discuss the OP's original question. It doesn't look like many people on here have much (or any) experience actually practicing in other countries, so it may be hard for us to add helpful information. I do know that Locum Tenens companies sometimes take US docs to work in New Zealand and Australia. Reportedy the pay is less but also the work hours are less (and the vacation time is usually > than what you'd get in the US). Pretty much all the European countries (except perhaps Ireland?) would require you to redo your residency if you wanted to practice there, so inquiring into practice in Canada/New Zealand/Australia/perhaps Ireland might be a better place to start than thinking you can jump ship to work in France or one of the Nordic countries...

 

[Doowai]

Can we please try to keep this discussion civil and on track? It would be nice if more folks had been able/willing to discuss the OP's original question. It doesn't look like many people on here have much (or any) experience actually practicing in other countries, so it may be hard for us to add helpful information. I do know that Locum Tenens companies sometimes take US docs to work in New Zealand and Australia. Reportedy the pay is less but also the work hours are less (and the vacation time is usually > than what you'd get in the US). Pretty much all the European countries (except perhaps Ireland?) would require you to redo your residency if you wanted to practice there, so inquiring into practice in Canada/New Zealand/Australia/perhaps Ireland might be a better place to start than thinking you can jump ship to work in France or one of the Nordic countries...

Sorry,

 

[Doowai]

I am looking for the requirements of various Caribbean countries for practicing there. I had gathered this a few years ago, but am not sure where I placed it. It was scanned from faxes I recieved from their ministry of health etc. Bermuda interested me alot. I hope it was not saved under AOL photos as they discontinued that service. In any event it was not all that rigorous - if I remember right pretty much if you finished a residency you were good to go.

I know this is not the colder European etc countries you are interested in or Australia - but if I can get it posted perhaps it will give some specific information for licensure in other countries. I will also look at emails I had from what I think was called the GMC in the UK - I also enquired there about licensure.

Trivia : the Arc De Triomphe was designed so victorious armies could march through it and to date 2 armies have marched through it : German Armies when the Nazi's conquered the country and the American army when we saved it.