ABIM Fast Track

[Scottish Chap]

I'm interested in hearing from residents or applicants to the ABIM fast-track residency programs for folks who intend to be physician scientists.

I'm especially interested in hearing authoritative opinions on how safe a specialist will be after completing only 2 versus 3 years of categorical IM via this program. Also, is the 3-year basic science component 'set in stone'? (again, residents in this program can probably help). Thanks!

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[gutonc]

I'm especially interested in hearing authoritative opinions on how safe a specialist will be after completing only 2 versus 3 years of categorical IM via this program. Also, is the 3-year basic science component 'set in stone'? (again, residents in this program can probably help). Thanks!

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by safe. Are you asking if I'm as good of a generalist IM doc as my colleagues who are completing their 3d year of IM while I'm a first year Onc fellow? If so, the answer is probably no. Can I diagnose and manage the majority of the things I'm likely to see and know when to get help (i.e. consult)? Then probably yes. If you're asking whether I'll be as good of a specialist clinician as if I completed the standard IM --> Specialty course then probably yes because the clinical requirements are the same for me and for my non-research pathway colleagues.

As for the research requirement, the answer is yes and no. Yes, you will have to complete 3 years of research and a total of at least 4 years of fellowship training (clinical+research) as this is an ABIM requirement. This isn't like grad school where if you get lucky and have a project go really well you can get a few papers and be done early. It's more likely that you'll spend longer on the research (and continue on as junior faculty) than you could shorten it up. 3 years isn't a long time to do real, meaningful basic science research and get funding for an indpendent lab. If you don't finish the research years you have to go back and do your 3rd year of medicine (although some programs will let you do an extra clinical year in the specialty rather than doing another medicine year). The "no" answer is that you can do clinical research instead of basic science.

The way that you phrased your questions makes it sound like you're looking at the research pathway as a way to get done sooner. You should definitely re-think this if that's the case. It actually takes longer, start to finish, to do the research pathway than it does to go straight IM/Specialty.

 

[docbill]

I would like to know if anyone is doing the ABIM Research track now and would be willing to help out with some questions.

I am looking in to this program, and feedback from people doing this would be great.

Thanks

 

[gutonc]

I would like to know if anyone is doing the ABIM Research track now and would be willing to help out with some questions.

I am looking in to this program, and feedback from people doing this would be great.

Thanks

Fire away. And I don't do PM's.

 

[docbill]

Okay thanks.

How did you like the program? Was 2 year of IM and 1.5 years of HEME/Onc okay? Enough to practice clinically?

I am assuming they treate the ABIM research track resident fairly well considering you were picked and recruited. Would you do it again? I am considering this option and would definitely like to know if you are enjoying the program.

 

[gutonc]

Okay thanks.

How did you like the program? Was 2 year of IM and 1.5 years of HEME/Onc okay? Enough to practice clinically?

I am assuming they treate the ABIM research track resident fairly well considering you were picked and recruited. Would you do it again? I am considering this option and would definitely like to know if you are enjoying the program.

Look immediately above your first post in this thread to the answers to these questions.

Yes, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[nomogram3]

I'm in the situation of now ranking my short-track programs. Basically, I'm torn between ranking highly desirable IM programs, but which don't have ideal mentors in my field of interest on the research side, vs admittedly lower rated IM programs but institutions with awesome research portfolios. What criteria was the most important for you when it came ROL time?

 

[howelljolly]

Okay thanks.

How did you like the program? Was 2 year of IM and 1.5 years of HEME/Onc okay? Enough to practice clinically?

I am assuming they treate the ABIM research track resident fairly well considering you were picked and recruited. Would you do it again? I am considering this option and would definitely like to know if you are enjoying the program.

Im not sure what you mean by picked and recruited. If you're saying that the research track programs go and find med students, this isnt necessarily true. I interviewed at at few programs where the ABIM research track is available. In those programs you apply like any other residency. If and when you are already in, you can apply and be "picked" for the research track.

Two of the programs seem only to look for a commitment to research, and a having started a serious research project. Another one says that you must have a PhD, though equivalent research experience will be considered.

 

[gutonc]

I'm in the situation of now ranking my short-track programs. Basically, I'm torn between ranking highly desirable IM programs, but which don't have ideal mentors in my field of interest on the research side, vs admittedly lower rated IM programs but institutions with awesome research portfolios. What criteria was the most important for you when it came ROL time?

If you're doing this for the right reasons (i.e. you want an academic research career), realize that you will make or break your future with your research, not your ability to manage a wide range of general IM problems. Besides, any institution with an "awesome research portfolio" will have good enough training in IM that you won't notice the difference.

Look at it this way, you will spend 1.5-2x the amount of time in the lab that you do in your IM training in this pathway. Which do you think you should consider more highly?

 

[howelljolly]

If you're doing this for the right reasons (i.e. you want an academic research career), realize that you will make or break your future with your research, not your ability to manage a wide range of general IM problems. Besides, any institution with an "awesome research portfolio" will have good enough training in IM that you won't notice the difference.

Look at it this way, you will spend 1.5-2x the amount of time in the lab that you do in your IM training in this pathway. Which do you think you should consider more highly?

yup

 

[nomogram3]

At the end of the day, you'll spend approximately equal time in residency + fellowship as you will doing research. I could short-track and stay at a place with great research for what I'm interested in (UCSD) but ok clinical training, or I could go to a top place (MGH) which doesn't really do what I want to do research-wise exceptionally well, but where I could switch gears a little bit. My other option is to go somewhere for two years and then leave for fellowship, which opens up a few places that don't have residency programs.

Oh, and as for "right reasons..." I'm looking at this like my MD/PhD, if you are doing this to get an early fellowship slot the research years will eat you alive. That, and if you're qualified enough to get interviews at the best places you're going to get a fellowship.

 

[howelljolly]

At the end of the day, you'll spend approximately equal time in residency + fellowship as you will doing research. I could short-track and stay at a place with great research for what I'm interested in (UCSD) but ok clinical training, or I could go to a top place (MGH) which doesn't really do what I want to do research-wise exceptionally well, but where I could switch gears a little bit. My other option is to go somewhere for two years and then leave for fellowship, which opens up a few places that don't have residency programs.

Oh, and as for "right reasons..." I'm looking at this like my MD/PhD, if you are doing this to get an early fellowship slot the research years will eat you alive. That, and if you're qualified enough to get interviews at the best places you're going to get a fellowship.

It depends on how committed you are to that particular research topic then. If you're fine with switching gears, then you've pretty much answered your own question.

But, Im pretty sure that the ABIM research track doesnt let you do two years of IM and then leave for another institution to do research and fellowship. Im almost positive that the IM program won't allow that.

 

[docbill]

Im not sure what you mean by picked and recruited. If you're saying that the research track programs go and find med students, this isnt necessarily true. I interviewed at at few programs where the ABIM research track is available. In those programs you apply like any other residency. If and when you are already in, you can apply and be "picked" for the research track.

Two of the programs seem only to look for a commitment to research, and a having started a serious research project. Another one says that you must have a PhD, though equivalent research experience will be considered.

Oh wording. They are picked = Ranked, recruited well.. I guess inviting you and wowing you with all the good things they have at the institution.

You apply and you rank just like any other residency. A lot of places have special interview days for ABIM research pathway applicants to be interviewed by IM, and/or research committee and/or fellowship program director.

The really good programs, want a high quality PhD or so many publications. Not UofPhenix Master's degree.

But then again I did not apply yet and I don't have first hand experience. This is all information I got from different PD when I contacted them.

 

[Friendly]

At the end of the day, you'll spend approximately equal time in residency + fellowship as you will doing research. I could short-track and stay at a place with great research for what I'm interested in (UCSD) but ok clinical training, or I could go to a top place (MGH) which doesn't really do what I want to do research-wise exceptionally well, but where I could switch gears a little bit. My other option is to go somewhere for two years and then leave for fellowship, which opens up a few places that don't have residency programs.

Oh, and as for "right reasons..." I'm looking at this like my MD/PhD, if you are doing this to get an early fellowship slot the research years will eat you alive. That, and if you're qualified enough to get interviews at the best places you're going to get a fellowship.

Or you could role the dice like everyone else and be shocked at how unpredictable the match is, and therefore carefully consider now what is most important to you (research or pedigree rubber stamp residency) before someone talks you into ranking something you'll later regret.

 

[docbill]

It depends on how committed you are to that particular research topic then. If you're fine with switching gears, then you've pretty much answered your own question.

But, Im pretty sure that the ABIM research track doesnt let you do two years of IM and then leave for another institution to do research and fellowship. Im almost positive that the IM program won't allow that.

Actually they do. I know 1 person who was at UCSF and is doing fellowship at Harvard now. The funding might be from Harvard and not from UCSF for those research years.

 

[Friendly]

It depends on how committed you are to that particular research topic then. If you're fine with switching gears, then you've pretty much answered your own question.

But, Im pretty sure that the ABIM research track doesnt let you do two years of IM and then leave for another institution to do research and fellowship. Im almost positive that the IM program won't allow that.

This is uncommon but it does actually happen and it's quite permissible under the research track rules (i.e. even if you have a guarantee of a fellowship, the IM program cannot prevent you from interviewing for the fellowship/research phase elsewhere). At some places (MGH, BID) there is an unofficial ABIM track and they will emphatically tell you they won't guarantee you a fellowship, and so you should expect to interview for that as an intern.

 

[nomogram3]

It depends on how committed you are to that particular research topic then. If you're fine with switching gears, then you've pretty much answered your own question.

But, Im pretty sure that the ABIM research track doesnt let you do two years of IM and then leave for another institution to do research and fellowship. Im almost positive that the IM program won't allow that.

Nope, this is definitely an option. I've interviewed at several ABIM research track programs where the directors flat out said they prefer you do fellowship at their institution, but you are free to apply anywhere you choose as an intern.

Its difficult finding a place that can satisfy IM + fellowship + research. I'm looking to publish in Nature and get a K, not do "ok," and that doesn't always mean going to the top 10 in someone's best programs list.

 

[howelljolly]

Oh wording. They are picked = Ranked, recruited well.. I guess inviting you and wowing you with all the good things they have at the institution.

You apply and you rank just like any other residency. A lot of places have special interview days for ABIM research pathway applicants to be interviewed by IM, and/or research committee and/or fellowship program director.

The really good programs, want a high quality PhD or so many publications. Not UofPhenix Master's degree.

But then again I did not apply yet and I don't have first hand experience. This is all information I got from different PD when I contacted them.

I interviewed at a few of these programs. Im stupid.

 

[docbill]

I interviewed at a few of these programs. Im stupid.

I don't understand. I was not saying anything negative about your posts. I was clarifying that I don't have any experience in applying and that it is all hearsay. Good Luck Jolly.

 

[howelljolly]

I don't understand. I was not saying anything negative about your posts. I was clarifying that I don't have any experience in applying and that it is all hearsay. Good Luck Jolly.

Im just being silly.

 

[sunset823]

out of curiosity, could you do a 'fast-track' in critical care? and if you're interested in clinical/outcomes research, not basic science? and don't have a phd? thanks.

 

[gutonc]

out of curiosity, could you do a 'fast-track' in critical care? and if you're interested in clinical/outcomes research, not basic science? and don't have a phd? thanks.

In theory, yes. There's no requirement for either basic science or a PhD to do the Research Pathway. You'd have to find a program with strong clinical research in CCM and either a really good mentor or an MPH program.

And please don't call it Fast Track...You'll spend 6 years doing it this way compared to 5 years for straight IM/CCM.

 

[ResidentMD]

In theory, yes. There's no requirement for either basic science or a PhD to do the Research Pathway. You'd have to find a program with strong clinical research in CCM and either a really good mentor or an MPH program.

And please don't call it Fast Track...You'll spend 6 years doing it this way compared to 5 years for straight IM/CCM.

If you were interested in a research career (to be read as you [should] apply for a K grant at the end of your fellowship), you would anyway likely end up doing an additional research year making it a 3 year IM + (2+1) critical care fellowship via the conventional route, making it the same time period as the ABIM. The advantage of doing the ABIM would be you spend 1 year doing CC-research instead of doing a year of IM residency...and that is an advantage/disadvantage depending on how you look at it.

 

[gutonc]

If you were interested in a research career (to be read as you [should] apply for a K grant at the end of your fellowship), you would anyway likely end up doing an additional research year making it a 3 year IM + (2+1) critical care fellowship via the conventional route, making it the same time period as the ABIM. The advantage of doing the ABIM would be you spend 1 year doing CC-research instead of doing a year of IM residency...and that is an advantage/disadvantage depending on how you look at it.

Yes...and more likely you would wind up doing 2 extra years (at a minimum) of research at the "instructor" or other junior faculty level anyway.

And there's no debate...one less year of IM is beyond awesome.

 

[foo]

Yes...and more likely you would wind up doing 2 extra years (at a minimum) of research at the "instructor" or other junior faculty level anyway.

And there's no debate...one less year of IM is beyond awesome.

Interesting discussion... (very timely)

What would you recommend for someone that is relatively young (and not in a hurry), has done well in clinical rotations, has good step scores, and is completing an MD/PhD (MSTP), so he has already done a fair amount of research (including a PhD thesis) in what is likely to be his specialty choice for fellowship (his research credentials should already be good, right?).

This is someone who is thinking that perhaps he should simply focus on clinical work for a change (instead of doing additional research), at a top academic IM residency program. (He found that he enjoyed his clinical rotations, specially the IM and Sub-I rotations).

He is thinking - why not spend that last year in IM, just like the rest of his resident colleagues, and become a bit more well rounded clinically? Since he will be a Physician/Scientist the rest of his life (most likely) anyhow...

(No, this is not me... I just listen and support whatever he decides... Just curious what you think so I can sound smarter when I talk with him...).

 

[sunset823]

Yes...and more likely you would wind up doing 2 extra years (at a minimum) of research at the "instructor" or other junior faculty level anyway.

And there's no debate...one less year of IM is beyond awesome.

Thanks for the responses. I'm still an M2 and have a ways to go, but two things I know are I want to be in academics and in critical care (I've had a couple of great ICU experiences). I'm not really very eager about outpatient work, so I am considering anesthesia, but the IM research track option with one less year of HTN and DM definitely sounds interesting as well. I guess I'll just have to wait till after boards to see if I'm even competitive for this.

 

[coarctation]

So after looking at various programs' website and reading prior posts on SDN about this, I am unclear as to when you apply: Is it during the medical school residency application process to IM? Do you apply as an Intern, or PGY2 as you would a normal fellowship?

Also, I am interested in this idea, but with clinical research -- can anyone comment if their programs have clinical researchers, or is everyone bench/basic? I have read where people have the option, but it seems most people are MD/PHDs, who are doing bench research from the websites I have looked at.

Thanks!

 

[Friendly]

So after looking at various programs' website and reading prior posts on SDN about this, I am unclear as to when you apply: Is it during the medical school residency application process to IM? Do you apply as an Intern, or PGY2 as you would a normal fellowship?

Also, I am interested in this idea, but with clinical research -- can anyone comment if their programs have clinical researchers, or is everyone bench/basic? I have read where people have the option, but it seems most people are MD/PHDs, who are doing bench research from the websites I have looked at.

Thanks!

Most people match into residency and fellowship right out of medical school. A few programs will endorse the research track for you, but not guarantee the fellowship at that institution (meaning you interview for fellowship as an intern). You can apply as an intern, but it's unusual.

You do not need a PhD, but most people in this track have one. Most do basic research but you can do clinical.

 

[coarctation]

Most people match into residency and fellowship right out of medical school. A few programs will endorse the research track for you, but not guarantee the fellowship at that institution (meaning you interview for fellowship as an intern). You can apply as an intern, but it's unusual.

You do not need a PhD, but most people in this track have one. Most do basic research but you can do clinical.

Is there a list of programs? I didn't see the ABIM website list it. I have links to some old lists that have outdated links. Any thoughts?

For those of your who have applied: How many programs should you apply for to be competitive?

 

[Friendly]

Is there a list of programs? I didn't see the ABIM website list it. I have links to some old lists that have outdated links. Any thoughts?

For those of your who have applied: How many programs should you apply for to be competitive?

http://tinyurl.com/64rkgp6

 

[coarctation]

http://tinyurl.com/64rkgp6

Thanks for the ever so helpful advicethumbdown Maybe you got caught up in the snow that has blanketed half the country, and you have cabin fever, so you've forgotten what your mom taught you: If you have nothing nice to say, better to say nothing.

And just to clarify your earlier comment, there are quite a few programs that you apply to as an INTERN/PGY2, despite what some program's outdated websites state.

So if anyone else is kind enough to chime in with thoughts about my questions, I would appreciate it.

 

[Friendly]

Thanks for the ever so helpful advicethumbdown
And just to clarify your earlier comment, there are quite a few programs that you apply to as an INTERN/PGY2, despite what some program's outdated websites state.

So if anyone else is kind enough to chime in with thoughts about my questions, I would appreciate it.

No, you cannot apply as a PGY-2. Since you are doing only two years of residency, the latest you can apply is as an intern. You need to have all your letters, research, and essay lined up in the first two months of internship. This way you interview as an intern, match at the end of internship, and start fellowship as a PGY-3. Usually the more famous programs (MGH, Hopkins, BIDMC etc.) have you apply as an intern as they will not guarantee the fellowship right out of medical school. I hope that helps.