ABIM Research track

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dr.op

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Hi,
I am a graduate currently applying for residencies. During my research through innumerable program websites, I've noticed a lot of programs have an ABIM-approved research track. Does anyone know how they work? And what are the requirements for admission? I don't have an awful lot of research done as an undergrad, do I still stand a chance?

Thanks a million for your help, guys!

OP
 
These programs are basically designed for either MD-PhD grads or MD only grads w/ significant research accomplishments (e.g. on year devoted to research a la Howard Hughes).

They let you do the following:
1. Complete an accelerated Internal Medicine residency (2 years)
2. Guaranteed acceptance into a fellowship of your choices (1-3 years)
3. Dedicated post-doc including lab time (2 years)

TOTAL = 5 to 8 years

After you are done, you can sit for the Internal Medicine and sub-speciality boards. Also you will be poised to enter a junior-level tenure-track faculty position. To sweeten the pot, some programs will increase your pay during the post-doc period (~$60,000 in some places).
 
Strangely enough, this program was originally designed to get people w/o PhDs interested in research as a career. In reality however, most people who are interested in doing research as a career already have a PhD so most people who do the Research Track are MD/PhD. On my interview trail last year (and I only interviewed at places w/ the Research Track), I met a grand total of 1 person who didn't have a PhD and he was only kind of interested in the program. So, if you don't have a PhD, you may actually stand out in the minds of PDs. That said, you should have a really good reason for wanting to do the program (and a guaranteed fellowship spot shouldn't be the reason...that's the residency version of doing an MD/PhD for the free med school tuition).

As for the program itself. Gfunk is pretty much on the mark except that your post-doc time is 3 years instead of 2. Basically, you swap an IM clinical year for 2 research years. In a perfect world, fellowships are supposed to have ~50% of their time for research. In other words, a Hem-Onc fellowship (which is the one I know best) is supposed to be 6 mos clinical solid onc, 6 mos clinical malignant hem, 6 mos clinical benign hem and 18 mos research. By doing a research track in H/O (or other 3 year fellowship), you only do those 18 clinical months, do 2 years of IM prior and then do 3 years of research (90% protected time).

So the overall time investment (in spite of the short-track moniker that the program gets) is slightly longer than if you did a straight residency/fellowship track (6-12 mos, depending on the fellowship). The upside is that if you want an academic job when you're done, you're more or less guaranteed a junior faculty position in most programs.

As for the boards, you can sit for IM with the rest of your entering residency class (PGY-4 year). You can sit for specialty boards when you're finished with the program.

What do you miss in these programs? The chance to chill in your PGY-3 year. Although research track folks have the same requirements for board certification as other IM residents, they have to fulfill them in the first 2 years. This means 20 months of "direct patient care" rotations. In general this means wards, unit and ambulatory months. Apparently it can also mean IM specialty consult months but those cush Derm and Neuro consult months you were looking forward to may not count. So you squeeze the important parts of a 3 year residency into 2 years and don't get to relax as much as you might otherwise in your PGY2/3 years. That said, for many of us who have done the MD/PhD thing, we're ready to finally get a freakin' job already so speeding things up a little bit is kind of enticing.

Hopefully this answered some questions you had. PM me if you have more.

BE (now PE)
 
Gfunk6 and I have covered this topic in the past...here is a link to a similiar thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=192439

I am currently a PGY-2 in a fast-track program and I agree with both what Gfunk6 and brooklyneric has posted. I also extend a hand in helping you with any thoughts or concerns you may have regarding these programs.
 
That's great guys, thanks for your input! It seems I'm right in assuming that I will not really be considered a candidate for a fast track programme so, with my limited research experience?

Just out of curiosity, if I am looking to practice academic medicine with lots of research, is there any other good way of getting research experience etc as a resident? Has anyone heard of people taking time off between residency and fellowship for a PhD? Is a PhD really needed, or would lots of research experience as a residence make me a strong candidate for academic fellowships anyway?
 
Doctor&Geek said:
This is exactly what I have been looking for. Is it really this limited though? Or is it an incomplete list? If incomplete, where can I find more schools that participate without having to fish out all the information manually?

Regards,

-Salty
 
This is the most complete list you will see. The research track really can be done anywhere, and the formation of an actual program is purely up to the discretion of the residency. That's why there is no formal list on the ABIM site.


SaltySqueegee said:
This is exactly what I have been looking for. Is it really this limited though? Or is it an incomplete list? If incomplete, where can I find more schools that participate without having to fish out all the information manually?

Regards,

-Salty
 
3 years later, hopefully more people are in this program and willing to provide more info.

Do you feel you are getting enough training in this track?

Are you going to be weaker or the same when you start 1st year of fellowship?

I am looking to apply for this program and have noticed that program directors have been very good at responding to my emails when inquiring about this. I thought this would be a competitive pathway, with all the MD / PhD wanting to do this.. but is it really?
 
I am looking to apply for this program and have noticed that program directors have been very good at responding to my emails when inquiring about this. I thought this would be a competitive pathway, with all the MD / PhD wanting to do this.. but is it really?
It's an interesting question to me, too. On one hand, you would think it would be more competitive just because it has guaranteed postdoc time and fellowship, and often comes with an automatic junior faculty position. Those are pretty nice perks, right? But on the other hand, there probably aren't all that many people, MD/PhD or MD-only, who both qualify for a program like this and who actually want to do it. I wonder how many MD/PhDs wind up going into private practice instead of staying in academia, especially in well-paying subspecialties like cards and GI.
 
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It's an interesting question to me, too. On one hand, you would think it would be more competitive just because it has guaranteed postdoc time and fellowship, and often comes with an automatic junior faculty position. Those are pretty nice perks, right? But on the other hand, there probably aren't all that many people, MD/PhD or MD-only, who both qualify for a program like this and who actually want to do it. I wonder how many MD/PhDs wind up going into private practice instead of staying in academia, especially in well-paying subspecialties like cards and GI.

Yeah considering there are only so many MDs in the world... there are even fewer people who are crazy enough to do an MD / PhD or PhD then MD (like some people). I am guessing very few people would be interested/qualify for this path. I am interested cause it will cut down on IM and fellowship, but give you a chance to transition into academia.

BTW, (in my opinion) I don't think post-doc position is hard to get and by doing this research track, you are not guaranteed junior faculty position... I know that some places hire you during your last year, but not everywhere. Plus most would rather finish the program and start accepting offers elsewhere. There is no secret that other Universities will make you better offers, whereas the one you are at will try to low ball you.

I would like to know if you get treated fair by the clinical faculty and staff considering you will be going in to academia. I definitely wouldn't want to be treated as a phd post-doc, in a lot of places they are treated like slave labor.
 
Yeah considering there are only so many MDs in the world... there are even fewer people who are crazy enough to do an MD / PhD or PhD then MD (like some people). I am guessing very few people would be interested/qualify for this path. I am interested cause it will cut down on IM and fellowship, but give you a chance to transition into academia.
I would guess that probably even fewer PhDs-to-MDs go into academia, because for plenty of them, the reason they went to med school in the first place was to get away from the lab. 😛

That being said, I definitely do not count myself in that category. I've been interested in having an academic career all along. I just wonder if I've been out of science too long now where it would be hard to transition back to a lab. Are you a PhD-to-MD, docbill? What are your thoughts about going back to science after med school?
 
I need to point out that ABIM defines two branches for the research pathway: the basic scientist and the clinical investigator. Everyone is quite familiar with people in the first, aka bench research. That's where most PhD's end up. However, few realize that those in the clinical investigator track like myself exist. Of course, this requires access to a mentor who's very experienced in clinical research, and those are getting harder to find. For both paths, entry does require a commitment to an academic career.

As for the list, I believe it's not current. My research pathway program definitely has a few more than what's listed in that link above, but not many.
 
I would guess that probably even fewer PhDs-to-MDs go into academia, because for plenty of them, the reason they went to med school in the first place was to get away from the lab. 😛

That being said, I definitely do not count myself in that category. I've been interested in having an academic career all along. I just wonder if I've been out of science too long now where it would be hard to transition back to a lab. Are you a PhD-to-MD, docbill? What are your thoughts about going back to science after med school?

Yes Sir, PhD first then went to MD, currently 3rd year and will be applying for residency in Sept. I definitely want to go back to Academia, but with ongoing clinical duties. Where I trained (phd) docs would work 2-3 days in Hospital and the rest of the time they would do research work (also in Hospital of course, or across the street where the research building was). I think I would be really happy with that kind of lifestyle. I like discovering things or finding cures.... you know the stuff most people don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole. Also I really enjoy clinical part of medicine. Doing both will keep me from getting bored. I will prob go back in to translational research (ie. Lab + Clinical). Who knows.... but I don't think pure clinical research is that interesting.

I don't think being out of research for 6-8 years (MD + Residency) will be too difficult. After all you have MDs with no research experience coming to do Post-Doc for 3 years and they seem to do just fine. Sloppy, rushed, and impatient but they do it. If someone is truly interested in research and discovering things... the academic mind will always be there.
 
I need to point out that ABIM defines two branches for the research pathway: the basic scientist and the clinical investigator. Everyone is quite familiar with people in the first, aka bench research. That's where most PhD's end up. However, few realize that those in the clinical investigator track like myself exist. Of course, this requires access to a mentor who's very experienced in clinical research, and those are getting harder to find. For both paths, entry does require a commitment to an academic career.

As for the list, I believe it's not current. My research pathway program definitely has a few more than what's listed in that link above, but not many.

Definitely. Clinical researchers are harder and harder to find. Especially mentors and that is the biggest problem.

They are both difficult but fun to get in to. I see myself collaborating with someone who does pure clinical research. I think that is the best way to have translational finding that make a difference.
 
I need to point out that ABIM defines two branches for the research pathway: the basic scientist and the clinical investigator. Everyone is quite familiar with people in the first, aka bench research. That's where most PhD's end up. However, few realize that those in the clinical investigator track like myself exist. Of course, this requires access to a mentor who's very experienced in clinical research, and those are getting harder to find. For both paths, entry does require a commitment to an academic career.
It's funny you should say that. I'm actually an MS4, but I'll graduate in 2011 because I took an extra year to work on a clinical project. I have an excellent clinical research mentor and have also managed to get some formal clinical research training (classes) along the way. I really enjoy clinical research, although I enjoyed the basic research also. However, I'm planning on doing clinical research, because I've kind of gotten into the analysis part more than I expected I would. I'm also a believer in EBM, and it's hard to have EMB without the E. 😛
 
Yes Sir, PhD first then went to MD, currently 3rd year and will be applying for residency in Sept. I definitely want to go back to Academia, but with ongoing clinical duties. Where I trained (phd) docs would work 2-3 days in Hospital and the rest of the time they would do research work (also in Hospital of course, or across the street where the research building was). I think I would be really happy with that kind of lifestyle. I like discovering things or finding cures.... you know the stuff most people don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole. Also I really enjoy clinical part of medicine. Doing both will keep me from getting bored. I will prob go back in to translational research (ie. Lab + Clinical). Who knows.... but I don't think pure clinical research is that interesting.

I don't think being out of research for 6-8 years (MD + Residency) will be too difficult. After all you have MDs with no research experience coming to do Post-Doc for 3 years and they seem to do just fine. Sloppy, rushed, and impatient but they do it. If someone is truly interested in research and discovering things... the academic mind will always be there.
Docbill: weren't you PhD-to-DO-to-MD? I have to say that you have made the most impressive changes. I agree what you say - but once you leave the academic world, it's very hard to reverse that. Better to stay involved in medicine and research at the start to open all doors. Private practice will always be there.
 
I have to say that you have made the most impressive changes. I agree what you say - but once you leave the academic world, it's very hard to reverse that. Better to stay involved in medicine and research at the start to open all doors. Private practice will always be there.

Thanks for the compliment. It was a difficult period and the transition is demanding. I agree that once you leave academia it is difficult to get back in... prob impossible. I don't think I would ever want to be in private practice. Academia and hospital position fits my needs best. You can tell I am no in this for the money Eh!
 
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Thanks for the compliment. It was a difficult period and the transition is demanding. I agree that once you leave academia it is difficult to get back in... prob impossible. I don't think I would ever want to be in private practice. Academia and hospital position fits my needs best. You can tell I am no in this for the money Eh!

Its not impossible to get back in. I know enough researchers who had their stint in industry who were able to get back in after they were done having their share of fun in the industry (or getting burnt 😉 ). The main issue would be, you may not get back to the same position that you were and earn the same amount of money you could/should....
 
Its not impossible to get back in. I know enough researchers who had their stint in industry who were able to get back in after they were done having their share of fun in the industry (or getting burnt 😉 ). The main issue would be, you may not get back to the same position that you were and earn the same amount of money you could/should....

Industry is MUCH different from PP though. In industry, you keep a research resume going which is the key to getting an academic job. If you're trying to come from PP, you will likely run into people thinking you were just out to grab some fat cash, while they were toiling in the bowels of academia and will give you grief for that.

PP-->Academia is a lot harder than any other career transition in medicine.
 
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