ABIPP

[Burnted_out]

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hi all,

I am considering doing a non-accredited pain ellowship. one of the fellowships i interviewed for tells me that i would have to do more than a 12 month fellowship because the ABIPP requires 18 month of supervised experience prior to allowing someone to sit for the boards. Can someone educate me on this? i have never heard this, and i know plenty of people do non-accredited pain fellowships for a 12 month period with no issue. I dont know any resident who has had 6months of pain electives. thoughts?

 

[Bostonspine]

hi all,

I am considering doing a non-accredited pain ellowship. one of the fellowships i interviewed for tells me that i would have to do more than a 12 month fellowship because the ABIPP requires 18 month of supervised experience prior to allowing someone to sit for the boards. Can someone educate me on this? i have never heard this, and i know plenty of people do non-accredited pain fellowships for a 12 month period with no issue. I dont know any resident who has had 6months of pain electives. thoughts?

As someone that did a non-accredited fellowship I can tell you that you references matter more for privileging than non-ACGME boarding. The amount of procedures performed independently are more important than the amount of months. Hope this isn’t the same fellowship requiring subacute consults

 

[Burnted_out]

As someone that did a non-accredited fellowship I can tell you that you references matter more for privileging than non-ACGME boarding. The amount of procedures performed independently are more important than the amount of months. Hope this isn’t the same fellowship requiring subacute consults

Haha, no this is a different fellowship. This one is strictly outpatient and procedural, and seems to be a very by the book and legit. So what is the deal with the 18 months of training that I was told? Is that not the case? and what kind of program would give residents 6months of pain experience? I have not really heard of that. I am not so worried about priviledging really as I am aware of numerous people who have done non-accredited fellowships and have done quite well with no problem. My goal is also private practice not hospital/academic practice. But I just want to understand where this whole 18month thing comes from.

 

[lobelsteve]

Uou are cheap and abusable labor. Nothing more.

 

[Gauss]

18 months of training is not listed on ABIPP website:
https://www.abipp.org/faqs


Minimum Requirements



For any candidate to be considered for ABIPP Diplomate Certification the minimum requirements are:

1. A primary ABMS board certification.
   
   
2. An active license to practice medicine in the United States
   

 

[Burnted_out]

Uou are cheap and abusable labor. Nothing more.

Yes, that is all forms of training, including residency and fellowship. I just wanted to double check. I told the practice I would be willing to do 12months.

 

[SommeRiver]

hi all,

I am considering doing a non-accredited pain ellowship. one of the fellowships i interviewed for tells me that i would have to do more than a 12 month fellowship because the ABIPP requires 18 month of supervised experience prior to allowing someone to sit for the boards. Can someone educate me on this? i have never heard this, and i know plenty of people do non-accredited pain fellowships for a 12 month period with no issue. I dont know any resident who has had 6months of pain electives. thoughts?

Are they at least paying you 6 figures for the prostitution they're going to do to you?

 

[Burnted_out]

Are they at least paying you 6 figures for the prostitution they're going to do to you?

I'm not sure what this means? I would not do 16 months. Period. Are you suggesting that people don't do unaccredited fellowships? Fellowships don't pay 6 figures.

 

[Gauss]

Yes, that is all forms of training, including residency and fellowship. I just wanted to double check. I told the practice I would be willing to do 12months.

false - ACGME is a different beast both in regards to funding and rules

 

[Burnted_out]

false - ACGME is a different beast both in regards to funding and rules

I was used and abused in my ACGME accredited, PM&R residency. That's my point. ACGME accreditation is not some sort of panacea. And to suggest that all ACGME programs are great, and that all non-ACGME programs are bad is unrealistic. I am doing my homework obviously and weeding out the programs that are trying to prey and use and abuse. Clearly there are perfectly respectable non-ACGME programs that will provide good training without using and abusing.

 

[myrandom2003]

like this one.
Spine Fellowship (Interventional) | Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation | Michigan Medicine | University of Michigan

Many PM&R fellowships were acgme accredited and then lost accreditation once there was some mandate of one pain fellowship per institution and most went under anesthesia. That doesn't mean the pm&r fellowships went away. They just carried on, unaccredited.

you all know this already. why that haterade?

 

[lobelsteve]

I was used and abused in my ACGME accredited, PM&R residency. That's my point. ACGME accreditation is not some sort of panacea. And to suggest that all ACGME programs are great, and that all non-ACGME programs are bad is unrealistic. I am doing my homework obviously and weeding out the programs that are trying to prey and use and abuse. Clearly there are perfectly respectable non-ACGME programs that will provide good training without using and abusing.

There is a non acgme match for the better programs. I think nass helps keep it straight. Think Cleveland clinic with rus DeMicco.

 

[SommeRiver]

false - ACGME is a different beast both in regards to funding and rules

Exactly.

 

[Gauss]

I was used and abused in my ACGME accredited, PM&R residency. That's my point. ACGME accreditation is not some sort of panacea. And to suggest that all ACGME programs are great, and that all non-ACGME programs are bad is unrealistic. I am doing my homework obviously and weeding out the programs that are trying to prey and use and abuse. Clearly there are perfectly respectable non-ACGME programs that will provide good training without using and abusing.

do you need a hug?
You say "used and abused" by an ACGME program but non-ACGME programs have a far deeper and rich history of abuse. search this board
You're conflating quality training with ACGME accreditation; many ACGME PM&R programs are junk. this is well known, search this board
You sound foolish
Respectfully,
G

 

[Burnted_out]

like this one.
Spine Fellowship (Interventional) | Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation | Michigan Medicine | University of Michigan

Many PM&R fellowships were acgme accredited and then lost accreditation once there was some mandate of one pain fellowship per institution and most went under anesthesia. That doesn't mean the pm&r fellowships went away. They just carried on, unaccredited.

you all know this already. why that haterade?

Right. Although I think th

do you need a hug?
You say "used and abused" by an ACGME program but non-ACGME programs have a far deeper and rich history of abuse. search this board
You're conflating quality training with ACGME accreditation; many ACGME PM&R programs are junk. this is well known, search this board
You sound foolish
Respectfully,
G

I don’t need a hug from you. I am
making an objective statement. ACGME accreditation means very little these days. Tons of programs use and abuse their residents and fellows.You are the one confusing ACGME accreditation with quality and good training. There are plenty of accredited programs that are garbage. I would suggest that many non accredited programs, including Furman, Wolf, Penn, Michigan, Cleveland clinic, etc etc offer excellent training. I do not believe having a bunch of lectures, rotations in palliative care, peds, psych and much of the nonsense that many accredited programs have make for good training. Having rotated even in my own programs anesthesia based pain fellowship, it was sad to see what limited procedural experience fellows would get. They were mostly clinic monkeys.

 

[lobelsteve]

Right. Although I think th


I don’t need a hug from you. I am
making an objective statement. ACGME accreditation means very little these days. Tons of programs use and abuse their residents and fellows.You are the one confusing ACGME accreditation with quality and good training. There are plenty of accredited programs that are garbage. I would suggest that many non accredited programs, including Furman, Wolf, Penn, Michigan, Cleveland clinic, etc etc offer excellent training. I do not believe having a bunch of lectures, rotations in palliative care, peds, psych and much of the nonsense that many accredited programs have make for good training. Having rotated even in my own programs anesthesia based pain fellowship, it was sad to see what limited procedural experience fellows would get. They were mostly clinic monkeys.

I have taught in ACGME and ran a non-ACGME program. At this time, it would be of high importance to have ACGME for getting on insurance panels, getting credentialed at hospitals, and getting hired. As an upcoming fellow, you do not appear to have a true understanding of the playing field.

 

[DODOCSS]

Right. Although I think th


I don’t need a hug from you. I am
making an objective statement. ACGME accreditation means very little these days. Tons of programs use and abuse their residents and fellows.You are the one confusing ACGME accreditation with quality and good training. There are plenty of accredited programs that are garbage. I would suggest that many non accredited programs, including Furman, Wolf, Penn, Michigan, Cleveland clinic, etc etc offer excellent training. I do not believe having a bunch of lectures, rotations in palliative care, peds, psych and much of the nonsense that many accredited programs have make for good training. Having rotated even in my own programs anesthesia based pain fellowship, it was sad to see what limited procedural experience fellows would get. They were mostly clinic monkeys.

psych and much of the nonsense

psych is at least 80%, and doesn't improve w/ injections

 

[Burnted_out]

psych and much of the nonsense

psych is at least 80%, and doesn't improve w/ injections

If you feel 80% of your patients should not be getting injections then stop injecting them. I’m sure that’s your motto right? And I’m sure you have several psychologists and psychiatrists on staff then? Not sure why you are getting sacrimonious.

 

[DODOCSS]

If you feel 80% of your patients should not be getting injections then stop injecting them. I’m sure that’s your motto right? And I’m sure you have several psychologists and psychiatrists on staff then? Not sure why you are getting sacrimonious.

child please

 

[myrandom2003]

I have taught in ACGME and ran a non-ACGME program. At this time, it would be of high importance to have ACGME for getting on insurance panels, getting credentialed at hospitals, and getting hired. As an upcoming fellow, you do not appear to have a true understanding of the playing field.

I think is a great point in doing something unaccredited. Without ACGME, Can you get on an insurance panel? Can you get privileges?

As on some of the other threads, not everyone can answer yes.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Burnted_out]

I have taught in ACGME and ran a non-ACGME program. At this time, it would be of high importance to have ACGME for getting on insurance panels, getting credentialed at hospitals, and getting hired. As an upcoming fellow, you do not appear to have a true understanding of the playing field.

So why would you run an unaccredited program if you feel they are garbage? Isn’t it hypocritical? Are all your former fellows unemployed? You just used them and abused them then? Not very ethical to do something like that if you feel there is no future in such a setting

 

[DODOCSS]

So why would you run an unaccredited program if you feel they are garbage? Isn’t it hypocritical? Are all your former fellows unemployed? You just used them and abused them then? Not very ethical to do something like that if you feel there is no future in such a setting

child please

 

[Burnted_out]

I have taught in ACGME and ran a non-ACGME program. At this time, it would be of high importance to have ACGME for getting on insurance panels, getting credentialed at hospitals, and getting hired. As an upcoming fellow, you do not appear to have a true understanding of the playing field.

Also you then must think your colleagues are scam artists then from depalma, plastaras, wolf, furman, etc? They all run non accredited programs

 

[Burnted_out]

child please

I assume centeno Schultz program also is a scam then?

 

[Gauss]

I do not believe having a bunch of lectures, rotations in palliative care, peds, psych and much of the nonsense that many accredited programs have make for good training. Having rotated even in my own programs anesthesia based pain fellowship, it was sad to see what limited procedural experience fellows would get.

Ha, if you believe that, you really are clueless. That’s your right to be clueless though.
From your writing I’m not getting a sense of someone who has much insight into the future of interventional spine/pain medicine and what the next 20 years of your career will look like.

 

[Burnted_out]

Ha, if you believe that, you really are clueless. That’s your right to be clueless though.
From your writing I’m not getting a sense of someone who has much insight into the future of interventional spine/pain medicine and what the next 20 years of your career will look like.

again you think all your colleagues training people in non accredited programs are scam artists then, and everyone is unemployed coming from these programs. is that correct?

 

[lobelsteve]

:troll:

 

[Burnted_out]

:troll:

Sure, Im a troll because I ask objective questions. you run a nonaccredited program yet bash the same programs. the other guy talks about how 80% of patients are psych who don't improve with interventions yet he does not appear to have mental health people in his clinic and continues injecting the same people he does not believe will benefit from injections.

uh huh. ok.

 

[lobelsteve]

Sure, Im a troll because I ask objective questions. you run a nonaccredited program yet bash the same programs. the other guy talks about how 80% of patients are psych who don't improve with interventions yet he does not appear to have mental health people in his clinic and continues injecting the same people he does not believe will benefit from injections.

uh huh. ok.

I am considering doing a non-accredited pain ellowship. one of the fellowships i interviewed for tells me that i would have to do more than a 12 month fellowship because the ABIPP requires 18 month of supervised experience prior to allowing someone to sit for the boards. Can someone educate me on this? i have never heard this, and i know plenty of people do non-accredited pain fellowships for a 12 month period with no issue. I dont know any resident who has had 6months of pain electives. thoughts?

You are a know it all. Answer your own questions. But as far as 18mo goes, he wants less turnover on the slave labor to make his job easier in having to train people less often to earn him money and make patients happy.

 

[Burnted_out]

I am considering doing a non-accredited pain ellowship. one of the fellowships i interviewed for tells me that i would have to do more than a 12 month fellowship because the ABIPP requires 18 month of supervised experience prior to allowing someone to sit for the boards. Can someone educate me on this? i have never heard this, and i know plenty of people do non-accredited pain fellowships for a 12 month period with no issue. I dont know any resident who has had 6months of pain electives. thoughts?

You are a know it all. Answer your own questions. But as far as 18mo goes, he wants less turnover on the slave labor to make his job easier in having to train people less often to earn him money and make patients happy.

Im not a know it all. I ask certain questions. I guess all my classmates that have done nonaccredited fellowships are also idiots. I should not have listened to them. I guess pain physicians are corrupt I guess. Many well known names out there trying to scam new grads. This particular fellowship, or slave labor as you want to call it, is someone who is very well connected an a board examiner. Forgive me for being a *****, and not realizing that pain doctors are frauds trying to defraud others. You are right I am a complete idiot.

Yes I realize many people out there are trying to scam including that guy from Michigan spine and sports who said that "fellows" would have to do subacute consults with a midlevel, or the guy from NY who has a 2 year "fellowship."

Instead of providing helpful advice, there seems to be a pack mentality on this forum which i don't get. If you all truly believe all these fellowships are crap why are they repeatedly listed over and over, with many people writing rave reviews about them, etc. Clearly many double standards which becomes unhelpful.

The goal of this forum should be to help others looking for advice. I am not interested in discussing whether I sohuld do an ACGME program. I asked specific advice about something which seemed fishy. Trying to put me down, call me names, etc is lame and sad. I will move on and get advice from others who have done the same path that I am planning on doing, hopefully they can provide objective advice without all the name calling and mud slinging.

 

[painj]

I can attest to what the job market holds. Things are considerably different than 5 years ago. In order to be ACGME certified in pain, one would need to do an accredited fellowship =and that accreditation falls into those programs that are approved through the ASA. This is regardless of your primary specialty-of which-in order to get into one of these programs-one would need to have done an approved residency of any one of the following-anesthesia, PMR, neuro, psych, IM and now a couple of others to include FP and Rad. Not that these physicians will have an easy time of it-but if you have a residency in one of those specialties, and take an accredited fellowship-you will be eligible to get ACGME board certification in pain.

In the matter of credentialing, state laws or recommendations, the ONLY board that matters is the ACGME certification. Any of the other certifiable boards such as ABIPP that you mentioned, or ASIPP, or others-these do not count if a practice wants or needs a board certified pain management physician.

In years past, this was less of an issue, however now a days, you will have an 80% (give or take), easier time securing a position if you have the ACGME board certification. Certainly in areas and locations that are attractive. In more rural areas, jobs may be easier to come by without this certification, however for the most part it will be much more difficult to have a number of options without this accreditation.

It doesn't matter if a non-accredited fellowship offers better training, more training in interventional work, etc-when you get to the point of applying for a job-the accredited course will always win over a non-accredited one. In fact, I work with one group that offers a non-accredited fellowship but will not hire anyone who did not do an accredited fellowship course-meaning that they would not even hire the person that they are conducting a fellowship with as they don't qualify.

I hope this helps--again, please-I am not saying anything about who is better qualified, or if these minor boards and fellowships are better than ACGME courses--I am only saying as to what I am seeing on the job market-day in and day out.

Hopefully to the OP, this helps some when making your decision.

 

[Burnted_out]

I can attest to what the job market holds. Things are considerably different than 5 years ago. In order to be ACGME certified in pain, one would need to do an accredited fellowship =and that accreditation falls into those programs that are approved through the ASA. This is regardless of your primary specialty-of which-in order to get into one of these programs-one would need to have done an approved residency of any one of the following-anesthesia, PMR, neuro, psych, IM and now a couple of others to include FP and Rad. Not that these physicians will have an easy time of it-but if you have a residency in one of those specialties, and take an accredited fellowship-you will be eligible to get ACGME board certification in pain.

In the matter of credentialing, state laws or recommendations, the ONLY board that matters is the ACGME certification. Any of the other certifiable boards such as ABIPP that you mentioned, or ASIPP, or others-these do not count if a practice wants or needs a board certified pain management physician.

In years past, this was less of an issue, however now a days, you will have an 80% (give or take), easier time securing a position if you have the ACGME board certification. Certainly in areas and locations that are attractive. In more rural areas, jobs may be easier to come by without this certification, however for the most part it will be much more difficult to have a number of options without this accreditation.

It doesn't matter if a non-accredited fellowship offers better training, more training in interventional work, etc-when you get to the point of applying for a job-the accredited course will always win over a non-accredited one. In fact, I work with one group that offers a non-accredited fellowship but will not hire anyone who did not do an accredited fellowship course-meaning that they would not even hire the person that they are conducting a fellowship with as they don't qualify.

I hope this helps--again, please-I am not saying anything about who is better qualified, or if these minor boards and fellowships are better than ACGME courses--I am only saying as to what I am seeing on the job market-day in and day out.

Hopefully to the OP, this helps some when making your decision.

I appreciate your objective statements. I do find it wrong that your group would offer a non accredited fellowship though if they would only consider someone from an accredited program. But again thank you for presenting your point in an objective manner.

 

[painj]

I appreciate your objective statements. I do find it wrong that your group would offer a non accredited fellowship though if they would only consider someone from an accredited program. But again thank you for presenting your point in an objective manner.

I don't have the group--I do work for the group as a third party. I do not belong with that group at all.

 

[Ducttape]

From personal experience, it is very important to do an ACGME fellowship, even if you think the training isn’t as good.

I did internal medicine residency a long time ago, when ER residencies and fellowships were in their infancy. I was told by multiple ppl, including an EM residency director, that there will alway be the need for non EM boarded doctors to work in ERs - that there werent enough doctors to fill all the ERs. Don’t ever worry about getting a job...

15 years later, I was faced with the choice of making less than 6 figures working in small community ERs, or going back to internal medicine. Even with alternate ER board certification.

Almost irrespective of the quality of the individual program, for your future career, don’t let yourself be forced in to the situation of having to do additional training at age 40, just because you think you will get better training at a nonACGME program now. At a good ACGME program, your training will be high quality.

 

[Burnted_out]

From personal experience, it is very important to do an ACGME fellowship, even if you think the training isn’t as good.

I did internal medicine residency a long time ago, when ER residencies and fellowships were in their infancy. I was told by multiple ppl, including an EM residency director, that there will alway be the need for non EM boarded doctors to work in ERs - that there werent enough doctors to fill all the ERs. Don’t ever worry about getting a job...

15 years later, I was faced with the choice of making less than 6 figures working in small community ERs, or going back to internal medicine. Even with alternate ER board certification.

Almost irrespective of the quality of the individual program, for your future career, don’t let yourself be forced in to the situation of having to do additional training at age 40, just because you think you will get better training at a nonACGME program now. At a good ACGME program, your training will be high quality.

Well apparently Dr. Manchikanti is offering a 2! year "fellowship"
Wow! Just wow! I realize that most of these non-accredited programs are scams. I have found only a handful that are legitimate in my opinion.

 

[Doctodd]

not sure why some are belittling the kid for asking a question...maybe i missed it. But im also not sure why the kid is even considering nonACGME vs ACGME fellowship even if they both have their scam artists. Hopefully he finds a good ACGME fellowship so this question is moot. Now about longer than standard fellowships, i guess it depends on what you are getting.....Apple(not today) vs LG phone might be a good analogy. Is Manchikanti the Apple of pain fellowships? You can always do Centeno-Schultz training after your fellowship.

 

[Burnted_out]

not sure why some are belittling the kid for asking a question...maybe i missed it. But im also not sure why the kid is even considering nonACGME vs ACGME fellowship even if they both have their scam artists. Hopefully he finds a good ACGME fellowship so this question is moot. Now about longer than standard fellowships, i guess it depends on what you are getting.....Apple(not today) vs LG phone might be a good analogy. Is Manchikanti the Apple of pain fellowships? You can always do Centeno-Schultz training after your fellowship.

Both are non-accredited. By other people's statements, non acgme fellowships are crap. So why would anyone do a 2 year non accredited fellowship? if 1 year is a bad idea, then wouldn't a 2 year be even more of a bad idea then?

 

[Doctodd]

yes sure sounds like it....why are you asking a bunch of strangers who may or may not be familiar with the programs you are considering?

 

[Burnted_out]

yes sure sounds like it....why are you asking a bunch of strangers who may or may not be familiar with the programs you are considering?

Well this is the pain forum. You all are pain experts so I initially asked a question about ABIPP, got trashed, and then the discussion went into how non accredited programs are garbage essentially. I was under the impression that it's also important to be trained under people who are recognizable so that's why I was so surprised. I am sorry I asked questions. I did not intend to offend anyone.

 

[pastafan]

18 months of training is not listed on ABIPP website:
American Board of Interventional Pain Physicians


Minimum Requirements



For any candidate to be considered for ABIPP Diplomate Certification the minimum requirements are:

1. A primary ABMS board certification.
   
   
2. An active license to practice medicine in the United States

Google is your friend:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/61999f_1d433a4df9864ce7b499560015c5c325.pdf

At the time of certification by ABIPP, each physician shall be capable of performing independently a broad scope of the practice of interventional pain management and must:

1. Fulfill the requirements of the continuum of education in interventional pain management as follows:
Completed an ACGME approved fellowship,

OR

Practiced interventional pain management (practice involving interventional pain management > 50% of time) for 6 years.

Fulfill unrestricted licensure requirements to practice medicine in the United States. Have a professional standing satisfactory to ABIPP.

Be a diplomate of a primary specialty which offers pain medicine education and/or subspecialty certification in pain medicine and is approved by the ABMS or AOA.

Successfully complete ABIPP Part I – Theoretical Examination (you must first complete Part I successfully to be eligible for Part II)

Successfully complete ABIPP PartII Examination.

a. For candidates without an ACGME pain fellowship program:

A minimum of 300 hours of AMA Category I continuing medical education in the subspecialty of pain medicine and/or interventional pain management, 50 hours devoted to cadaver workshops offered by an ABIPP approved workshop.

 

[Doctodd]

no need to apologize....just some of us ornary guys on here wondering out loud/frustrated about your questions. No brainer to go ACGME. Our profession is under attack so why would you put yourself in an even worse position with going nonACGME that "might" suck? Im a one-trick pony with PMR/Pain, but anesthesia will always have work who's legitimacy is not under attack the way pain is. Dont make it harder on yourself.

 

[Burnted_out]

Google is your friend:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/61999f_1d433a4df9864ce7b499560015c5c325.pdf

At the time of certification by ABIPP, each physician shall be capable of performing independently a broad scope of the practice of interventional pain management and must:

1. Fulfill the requirements of the continuum of education in interventional pain management as follows:
Completed an ACGME approved fellowship,

OR

Practiced interventional pain management (practice involving interventional pain management > 50% of time) for 6 years.

Fulfill unrestricted licensure requirements to practice medicine in the United States. Have a professional standing satisfactory to ABIPP.

Be a diplomate of a primary specialty which offers pain medicine education and/or subspecialty certification in pain medicine and is approved by the ABMS or AOA.

Successfully complete ABIPP Part I – Theoretical Examination (you must first complete Part I successfully to be eligible for Part II)

Successfully complete ABIPP PartII Examination.

a. For candidates without an ACGME pain fellowship program:

A minimum of 300 hours of AMA Category I continuing medical education in the subspecialty of pain medicine and/or interventional pain management, 50 hours devoted to cadaver workshops offered by an ABIPP approved workshop.

Well I did not see the supposed 18 month requirement but that's what the group that i interviewed with for a fellowship claimed was needed, so I inquired here. I was told that because I had 2 months of pain electives I would need to do 16 months of training (18-2) and then I told them fellowships are 12months, they seemed to agree to it. When I followed up I was told that the group is merging with Manchikanti's group and the fellowship will now be 2 years. So it's not that I did not look, I simply could not find this statement anywhere so I asked. I am sorry I riled people up. I will move on now and asks questions elsewhere.

 

[Extralong]

Google is your friend:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/61999f_1d433a4df9864ce7b499560015c5c325.pdf

At the time of certification by ABIPP, each physician shall be capable of performing independently a broad scope of the practice of interventional pain management and must:

1. Fulfill the requirements of the continuum of education in interventional pain management as follows:
Completed an ACGME approved fellowship,

OR

Practiced interventional pain management (practice involving interventional pain management > 50% of time) for 6 years.

Fulfill unrestricted licensure requirements to practice medicine in the United States. Have a professional standing satisfactory to ABIPP.

Be a diplomate of a primary specialty which offers pain medicine education and/or subspecialty certification in pain medicine and is approved by the ABMS or AOA.

Successfully complete ABIPP Part I – Theoretical Examination (you must first complete Part I successfully to be eligible for Part II)

Successfully complete ABIPP PartII Examination.

a. For candidates without an ACGME pain fellowship program:

A minimum of 300 hours of AMA Category I continuing medical education in the subspecialty of pain medicine and/or interventional pain management, 50 hours devoted to cadaver workshops offered by an ABIPP approved workshop.

ABIPP board certification. Kind of confusing, but I just read through the stuff carefully. I think this is what they are essentially saying. (Please correct me if I’m wrong)

Options:
A) for ACGME pain fellow ONLY:
—a)Take compentancy CME course - no need for written ABIPP exam 1
—b) take ABIPP exam 2 -oral and hands on exam

B) for Anesthesia, PMR, Neuro, Psychiatry with NO pain ACGME fellowship
—a) Practice 6 years after residency 50% or more pain
—b) 300 hours CME and 50 hours Cadaver
—c) take ABIPP exam 1
—d) take ABIPP exam 2

C) for non-anesthesia, non-pmr, non-neuro, non-psych - bunch of stuff

 

[RM38]

I did an unaccredited fellowship that would be one of the more reputable ones as it was formally ACGME accredited in Pain in the years before I did it and I agree with the much of the issues that people bring up on here. I agree a 2 year fellowship is unnecessary and doing anything inpatient other than hospital pain consults as a fellow is worthless and just bringing in extra cash to the docs running the fellowship. There are big names whom give good training, but I promise you some of them certainly abuse the fellows and leave hours before the fellows do. I worked some very long hours as a fellow, but I left at the same time my attending did for the most part, so I really couldn't complain. Others were staying and doing EMGs until 7-8 at night when the attending left at 5. Ask questions related to this to the fellows on interview because most of them will tell you the truth.

Also yes it is true that both ACGME and non-ACGME programs vary in experience and some from one category will be better at certain aspects than others especially when it comes to procedures. Some of the other non-ACGME places like Furman's program give a good mix of sports exposure as well which can be a plus if you want to work in an ortho group with no med management. What they do lack is an exposure to a lot of the important other aspects of pain that cannot be underestimated especially if you are doing med management. My fellowship did lectures weekly and we also had in house psych whom we would discuss patient care issues and how that impacted our treatment plan. In the unaccredited places they usually only see spine stuff and you will not get much exposure to cancer pain, facial pain, chronic abdominal/pelvic pain and other random diagnosis that aren't often seen, but you will get consulted for if you work in PP pain. I am in a practice with someone whom did no opiod management in a spine type fellowship and that person sends patients into withdrawal all the time because they do not understand how to wean the high dose patients whom come here from other practices. You may not think that is important, but I promise you if the other docs in the practice are having to deal with this stuff that you can't handle properly and/or some pcps get upset, you won't be around for long. The psych issues are especially important to pick up on as missing those can get you into some serious trouble if a patient OD's and some clear warning signs were missed. It is easy to wean or discharge people whom test positive for cocaine, but picking up on other things such as opiod use disorder can be much more subtle, but are important not to miss. I have met graduating fellows from one of the more reputable programs you listed and one guy told me they did not know what what an LCMS was because they had never seen one or heard of one being ordered. Again if you have no desire to manage meds, this probably doesn't matter, but it will somewhat limit your job opportunities.

I was able to find a job without too much difficultly, but you do need to understand that some job markets will be tougher to crack if you did not do a ACGME fellowship. You need to be aware of that and be ready to adjust your location expectations some. The people that I know that did non-accredited fellowships and work in the market that I would prefer to be in make less than me and I am leaving my current job because I am underpaid amongst several other issues. Most of the places that I talk to in the area I would prefer to go that are interested are either pill mill type places or other shady situations that I have to withdraw consideration for because I can tell after a 5 minute phone conversation that I would never work there. In the end you have to make your own choice for what you think is best like I did and live with the potential good/bad that comes with it. If I had to do it again I would have waited for the match and only accepted the fellowship position that I did until after the match if I didn't get a spot.

While ABIPP or ABPM is considered board certification in some states it is important to understand that hospitals and insurance companies are not required to honor this certification. Some will, some won't. The laws simply allow you to advertise as a Board Certified Pain Specialist, but do little else in reality. I don't have either ABIPP or ABPM and I am credentialed under both PM&R and Pain at my local hospital system and with insurances I am on some panels as Pain/PM&R and some only as PM&R, but I am not in a big city. That could all change and may impact me negatively in a short time or potentially 20 years in the future if they change their policy which is the point some people are trying to make. If you are in a smaller market this is less likely to be a problem, but if you are in a bigger market it could be a big one.

 

[DODOCSS]

I did an unaccredited fellowship that would be one of the more reputable ones as it was formally ACGME accredited in Pain in the years before I did it and I agree with the much of the issues that people bring up on here. I agree a 2 year fellowship is unnecessary and doing anything inpatient other than hospital pain consults as a fellow is worthless and just bringing in extra cash to the docs running the fellowship. There are big names whom give good training, but I promise you some of them certainly abuse the fellows and leave hours before the fellows do. I worked some very long hours as a fellow, but I left at the same time my attending did for the most part, so I really couldn't complain. Others were staying and doing EMGs until 7-8 at night when the attending left at 5. Ask questions related to this to the fellows on interview because most of them will tell you the truth.

Also yes it is true that both ACGME and non-ACGME programs vary in experience and some from one category will be better at certain aspects than others especially when it comes to procedures. Some of the other non-ACGME places like Furman's program give a good mix of sports exposure as well which can be a plus if you want to work in an ortho group with no med management. What they do lack is an exposure to a lot of the important other aspects of pain that cannot be underestimated especially if you are doing med management. My fellowship did lectures weekly and we also had in house psych whom we would discuss patient care issues and how that impacted our treatment plan. In the unaccredited places they usually only see spine stuff and you will not get much exposure to cancer pain, facial pain, chronic abdominal/pelvic pain and other random diagnosis that aren't often seen, but you will get consulted for if you work in PP pain. I am in a practice with someone whom did no opiod management in a spine type fellowship and that person sends patients into withdrawal all the time because they do not understand how to wean the high dose patients whom come here from other practices. You may not think that is important, but I promise you if the other docs in the practice are having to deal with this stuff that you can't handle properly and/or some pcps get upset, you won't be around for long. The psych issues are especially important to pick up on as missing those can get you into some serious trouble if a patient OD's and some clear warning signs were missed. It is easy to wean or discharge people whom test positive for cocaine, but picking up on other things such as opiod use disorder can be much more subtle, but are important not to miss. I have met graduating fellows from one of the more reputable programs you listed and one guy told me they did not know what what an LCMS was because they had never seen one or heard of one being ordered. Again if you have no desire to manage meds, this probably doesn't matter, but it will somewhat limit your job opportunities.

I was able to find a job without too much difficultly, but you do need to understand that some job markets will be tougher to crack if you did not do a ACGME fellowship. You need to be aware of that and be ready to adjust your location expectations some. The people that I know that did non-accredited fellowships and work in the market that I would prefer to be in make less than me and I am leaving my current job because I am underpaid amongst several other issues. Most of the places that I talk to in the area I would prefer to go that are interested are either pill mill type places or other shady situations that I have to withdraw consideration for because I can tell after a 5 minute phone conversation that I would never work there. In the end you have to make your own choice for what you think is best like I did and live with the potential good/bad that comes with it. If I had to do it again I would have waited for the match and only accepted the fellowship position that I did until after the match if I didn't get a spot.

While ABIPP or ABPM is considered board certification in some states it is important to understand that hospitals and insurance companies are not required to honor this certification. Some will, some won't. The laws simply allow you to advertise as a Board Certified Pain Specialist, but do little else in reality. I don't have either ABIPP or ABPM and I am credentialed under both PM&R and Pain at my local hospital system and with insurances I am on some panels as Pain/PM&R and some only as PM&R, but I am not in a big city. That could all change and may impact me negatively in a short time or potentially 20 years in the future if they change their policy which is the point some people are trying to make. If you are in a smaller market this is less likely to be a problem, but if you are in a bigger market it could be a big one.

1 hour visits based on this diatribe

Vacation time...

 

[Burnted_out]

I did an unaccredited fellowship that would be one of the more reputable ones as it was formally ACGME accredited in Pain in the years before I did it and I agree with the much of the issues that people bring up on here. I agree a 2 year fellowship is unnecessary and doing anything inpatient other than hospital pain consults as a fellow is worthless and just bringing in extra cash to the docs running the fellowship. There are big names whom give good training, but I promise you some of them certainly abuse the fellows and leave hours before the fellows do. I worked some very long hours as a fellow, but I left at the same time my attending did for the most part, so I really couldn't complain. Others were staying and doing EMGs until 7-8 at night when the attending left at 5. Ask questions related to this to the fellows on interview because most of them will tell you the truth.

Also yes it is true that both ACGME and non-ACGME programs vary in experience and some from one category will be better at certain aspects than others especially when it comes to procedures. Some of the other non-ACGME places like Furman's program give a good mix of sports exposure as well which can be a plus if you want to work in an ortho group with no med management. What they do lack is an exposure to a lot of the important other aspects of pain that cannot be underestimated especially if you are doing med management. My fellowship did lectures weekly and we also had in house psych whom we would discuss patient care issues and how that impacted our treatment plan. In the unaccredited places they usually only see spine stuff and you will not get much exposure to cancer pain, facial pain, chronic abdominal/pelvic pain and other random diagnosis that aren't often seen, but you will get consulted for if you work in PP pain. I am in a practice with someone whom did no opiod management in a spine type fellowship and that person sends patients into withdrawal all the time because they do not understand how to wean the high dose patients whom come here from other practices. You may not think that is important, but I promise you if the other docs in the practice are having to deal with this stuff that you can't handle properly and/or some pcps get upset, you won't be around for long. The psych issues are especially important to pick up on as missing those can get you into some serious trouble if a patient OD's and some clear warning signs were missed. It is easy to wean or discharge people whom test positive for cocaine, but picking up on other things such as opiod use disorder can be much more subtle, but are important not to miss. I have met graduating fellows from one of the more reputable programs you listed and one guy told me they did not know what what an LCMS was because they had never seen one or heard of one being ordered. Again if you have no desire to manage meds, this probably doesn't matter, but it will somewhat limit your job opportunities.

I was able to find a job without too much difficultly, but you do need to understand that some job markets will be tougher to crack if you did not do a ACGME fellowship. You need to be aware of that and be ready to adjust your location expectations some. The people that I know that did non-accredited fellowships and work in the market that I would prefer to be in make less than me and I am leaving my current job because I am underpaid amongst several other issues. Most of the places that I talk to in the area I would prefer to go that are interested are either pill mill type places or other shady situations that I have to withdraw consideration for because I can tell after a 5 minute phone conversation that I would never work there. In the end you have to make your own choice for what you think is best like I did and live with the potential good/bad that comes with it. If I had to do it again I would have waited for the match and only accepted the fellowship position that I did until after the match if I didn't get a spot.

While ABIPP or ABPM is considered board certification in some states it is important to understand that hospitals and insurance companies are not required to honor this certification. Some will, some won't. The laws simply allow you to advertise as a Board Certified Pain Specialist, but do little else in reality. I don't have either ABIPP or ABPM and I am credentialed under both PM&R and Pain at my local hospital system and with insurances I am on some panels as Pain/PM&R and some only as PM&R, but I am not in a big city. That could all change and may impact me negatively in a short time or potentially 20 years in the future if they change their policy which is the point some people are trying to make. If you are in a smaller market this is less likely to be a problem, but if you are in a bigger market it could be a big one.

Thank you. I think your post is well articulated and helpful. I appreciate that.

 

[Doctodd]

Well I did not see the supposed 18 month requirement but that's what the group that i interviewed with for a fellowship claimed was needed, so I inquired here. I was told that because I had 2 months of pain electives I would need to do 16 months of training (18-2) and then I told them fellowships are 12months, they seemed to agree to it. When I followed up I was told that the group is merging with Manchikanti's group and the fellowship will now be 2 years. So it's not that I did not look, I simply could not find this statement anywhere so I asked. I am sorry I riled people up. I will move on now and asks questions elsewhere.

i guess they can make their own rules.....you have a decision to make.

 

[Burnted_out]

i guess they can make their own rules.....you have a decision to make.

They can try to do as they wish but it’s unethical to change the rules and waste someone’s time when something else has been discussed.