Abusive attending- what steps to take.

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Tito

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We have an abusive attending. She yells, swears, and calls us stupid. She picks on men especially. Everyone is afraid of her because she is powerful on the administrative level and knows lots of imp. ppl. She got for the department a budget increase last year. Her husband is also in the department staff (but is considerably nicer). We tried talking to the chairman but she was not much help. The program director is very busy because he is developing some kind of new procedure.

Previous residents just put up with it, we on the other hand don't believe we should have to.
What legal/not legal/anything can we do to stop her?
Somebody suggested submitting a grievance to human resources? What else can we do?

Thank you.

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You could always nail her on camera. Nothing shuts paople up like a little sex scandal.
 
Go to human resources if that doesn't work go take the bitch to court for abuse she doesn't have the right to treat anyone like that. Get a lawyer.
 
You could always nail her on camera. Nothing shuts paople up like a little sex scandal.

Hahaha, I love it.

I've honestly considered carrying around a tape recorder in my pocket to catch some of the things. That way at least should couldn't deny it without being shown to be a liar.
 
there are bitches and dinguses in every area of medicine and buisness. for some reason this mentality was allowed to fester in medicine especially in surgery. this behavior is are not tolerated as much now. at most institutions there is a grievance procedure in place. nurses are very good at documenting improper behaviors, those who are residents may have been written up once or twice.

there are several steps to take. first speak with you chief resident or resident advocate, next step is program director or chairman. HR many not be helpful because the physician many not be directly employed by the institution or university (most physicians are part of a multispecialty group which is contracted by the hospital or university). the next step is to go through the grievance policies of the hospital, university, or clinic. your hardest problem is going to beable to prove things, so documentation is the key.

most likely the behaviors will just become more mild. it is hard to truely change someones behavior. but remember, no matter how powerful you are, there is always someone above them.
 
The program director is very busy because he is developing some kind of new procedure.

If your PD is too busy with research to do his job, perhaps he's a bigger problem than one random abusive attending. Still, I'd go to him first, in a good faith effort to resolve the problem within the department. If he can't look away from the bench long enough to help you (or tell you to STFU & GBTW :) ), and the dept chair is indifferent, head over to the GME offices. Odds are that someone there exists to handle housestaff grievances.

That said, in the end, this is a battle you just can't win. Either you'll fail to get her restrained and simply provoke her further, or you'll achieve something that resembles a victory but again only provokes her further. You're not going to change her personality, so short of getting her wholly removed from resident education, you just can't win. So decide if you'll be happier losing by tolerating her abuse, or losing by standing up to her and inviting retribution down the road.

But whatever you do, take the high road ... calm, professional, honest.

PediBoneDoc said:
most likely the behaviors will just become more mild.

Hah, she may appear milder, but you know any reprimand or be-nice orders from her superiors will fester like the humiliating disgrace they are, and she'll be on the lookout to repay the favor down the road.
 
nurses are very good at documenting improper behaviors

That's ironic, considering how improperly nurses behave often. Of course, you could never write up a nurse. That would never be tolerated because it's considered unprofessional. Also ironic.

Anyways, you should just accept things. There are a lot of things that are hypocritical about the medical field and this is one of them. Professionalism is drummed into people's heads, but only if you're lower on the totem pole. An attending that is powerful, as you point out, can be as unprofessional as they want to be. The ER is quite unprofessional, but usually institutionally powerful because it is the gateway to the hospital. Nurses are unprofessional, but unionized. Attempting any action against any of these entitites is a waste of your time.

If people wanted to change anything, it would be changed already. That's the rule. You think it's a coincidence that nothing has changed? You'd be wrong.
 
I'm not sure why you would want to write up a nurse. Nurses are harmless. You have be a pretty insecure physician or person to let one of them get under your skin. I just laugh them off because most of the malignant ones are just bitter b/c they were too stupid to get a better job.
 
I'm not sure why you would want to write up a nurse. Nurses are harmless. You have be a pretty insecure physician or person to let one of them get under your skin. I just laugh them off because most of the malignant ones are just bitter b/c they were too stupid to get a better job.

Why is it that people find it odd that someone would want a nurse to act professional? There's some schizoid divide where people say that nurses be accorded the respect of a health care member and yet are OK with them not acting in that regard.

Although an attending certainly has more impact on you, I could just as easily say that only an insecure resident would let an attending's actions get to them.

Here's an example. Let's say a nurse decided to be immature and bomb page you just for fun. And nurses brag about doing this, so it's not deniable that they do. If I became angry, you would probably just say, "hey, count to 10, take a few deep breaths, etc." or "you should examine yourself to see what you did to cause that." Some people say the same thing when an attending reams you out. What did you do that caused it? Medicine is, in many ways, B.S. Rather than change the institution, it's easier to change the individual. So the solution is to make the individual think that they are always in the wrong, which allows the institution to survive unchanged.

What sweeping changes have there been in the mentality of residency? The 80-hour work week, that's it. And that only occurred because of a completely misinformed lawsuit that was sensationalized -- in other words, the lawsuit may have led to the proper results (debatable, but whatever) but for the wrong reason. Point is, the only reason medicine changed was because of bad P.R. But no internal action would have ever taken place had there not been this overhyped publicity to the laypublic which didn't understand anything about it.

Don't expect the institution to change. The attending will be there long after you're gone. Therefore, you lose. That's the ethics of the medical field.
 
You do realize that when you complain about this doctor to the chief/PD/HR/lawyer/CEO/whomever, you will instantly make yourself a target. Don't try to take out people who are higher up than you, because you'll end up taking out yourself. What's the worst, she hurts your feelings?
 
Here's an example. Let's say a nurse decided to be immature and bomb page you just for fun. And nurses brag about doing this, so it's not deniable that they do. If I became angry, you would probably just say, "hey, count to 10, take a few deep breaths, etc." or "you should examine yourself to see what you did to cause that." Some people say the same thing when an attending reams you out. What did you do that caused it? Medicine is, in many ways, B.S. Rather than change the institution, it's easier to change the individual. So the solution is to make the individual think that they are always in the wrong, which allows the institution to survive unchanged.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
You do realize that when you complain about this doctor to the chief/PD/HR/lawyer/CEO/whomever, you will instantly make yourself a target. Don't try to take out people who are higher up than you, because you'll end up taking out yourself. What's the worst, she hurts your feelings?

I don't care about my hurt feelings. I care about an unprofessional negative environment with an attending who is abusing her power and obviously has an anger management problem. I'm angry and frustrated that she's getting away with it. As for being targeted, i was thinking of something doing something anonymously. But i need ur ideas.
Should i:
tell the site visit people, who will cite the program for lack of professionalism?
send an anonymous letter to the GME?
Call my CIR representative to represent me + others also anonymously?
Send a letter to the local newspaper discussing how residents are abused?
Talk to the woman and tell her we're going to do something-non anonymously obviously-?
Call equal employment office and file a complaint of sexism?
what else?
Do nothing. Which is always another option.
 
let me just say, in todays world and medical climate, you have more power than you think. there is a process that must be initiated. the reason thing will persist is because people do not have the balz to do it. it is kind like when people take shots at other people on an anonymous forum; most would not speak so freely in person. there is a process, every medical staff has a policy of how to deal with disruptive and/ or inappropriate behavior. here is an example of one policy

it is funny that it comes down to code of conduct be case that is what hoover had talked about on his blog.

this is a code of conduct issue and a chain of events must occur. it needs someone to raise it as an issue. i would recommend not damaging you entire program by bringing the press or alerting the site visitor. because you have potential of damaging you own residency and not actually dealing with the primary issue.

there is a code of conduct for every employee and a mechanism of how to deal with them, nurses included. this is not an institutional issue, this is an individual issue. many hospitals have been steadily discouraging bad behavior. i hope you all are aware you can write up a nurse for inappropriate behavior, and it will go into his/her file. if they get enough, they have to be counseled.

it would be interesting to hear actually what was done. we can sit here and speculate all we want about what was said and done, but we done know. if you have genuine cause and others have witnessed it, you should be safe from retaliation. we can take out hearsay all we want, this person said this and this person said that. the reason these behavior continue to be present is because people let them and no one speaks out.

in my program we are currently dealing with an issue of a similar nature. it is a slow process, and mostly done behind closed doors so no one actually knows what is going on. i am privy to most of the on goings, and i can assure you that our powers that be know and are in the process of addressing it.
 
I'm not sure why you would want to write up a nurse. Nurses are harmless. You have be a pretty insecure physician or person to let one of them get under your skin. I just laugh them off because most of the malignant ones are just bitter b/c they were too stupid to get a better job.

Tell that to a family the next time one of your nurses forgets to chart that Gent was given so she "doubles the dose" to cover the "missing one" and the child is permanently hearing impaired.

Tell that to the mother of a teenager who dies of an acute air embolism when an inexperienced nurse removes a central line and fails to a) recognize the symptoms of an embolism, b) fails to take the patient seriously when he complains of symptoms and c) fails to institute appropriate treatment or notify someone until its too late.

Tell that to the grief stricken husband when you have to tell him that the Morphine pump his wife was using post-op was accidentally malfunctioning, giving his wife a steady stream of 20 mg of basal dosing, instead of 2 mg per hour and she goes into respiratory arrest. Worse yet, tell him that "nurses are harmless" when you explain that although the pump was alarming, the staff thought it was just a mistake and kept turning the alarm off rather than investigating the problem.

Tell that to the patient when the infusion dosing for Levophed is miscalculated and the patient gets too much, clamps down his periphery and his fingers and toes are black.

Tell that to the patient in acute respiratory distress because his nurse had accidentally disconnected his chest tube from suction, placed for a near total ptx.

Tell that to the spouse of the patient given the correct dosing of a 1 medication, but administered a similarly sounding but wrong medication - which results in a toxic dose and death.

Tell that to the patient in pain, and a horrified look on his face when confronted with a bleeding penis when his nurse accidentally removed his Foley while stepping on the catheter and assisting the patient across the room. Demented patients remove their Foleys all the time without taking down the balloon; its generally not recommended for any one else.

At any rate, the above is not necessarily meant to be nursing bashing because the "culprit" in each case could have easily been a physician, but don't kid yourself - the person administering the drugs, attending to the patient round the clock, and responsible for noticing acute clinical changes can be very harmful.

With the exception of the second example above, I have witnessed all the others during my residency. Please don't kid yourself that any one of us can harm or even kill a patient. I don't write up people for being PITA or paging me at 3 in the morning for something that could have waited, but there are real reasons why staff, including physicians, need to be written up. I could write just as many examples of physicians making mistakes, mistakes that wouldn't be caught if it weren't for the diligent nursing staff.
 
let me just say, in todays world and medical climate, you have more power than you think. there is a process that must be initiated. the reason thing will persist is because people do not have the balz to do it. it is kind like when people take shots at other people on an anonymous forum; most would not speak so freely in person. there is a process, every medical staff has a policy of how to deal with disruptive and/ or inappropriate behavior. here is an example of one policy

I'm glad you brought this up. I'm just a graduating student, and ancillary staff before that, but I have been around probably 3-4 times when an attending was "taken to task" for inappropriate behavior, with varying degrees of severity. Granted, in each of these, I heard about the end result second-hand, so I could hardly vouch for the full validity of the stories. But it does make me pretty suspicious of posters who say, "There's nothing you can do about it. Doctors get away with whatever they want, regardless."
 
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Should i:
tell the site visit people, who will cite the program for lack of professionalism?

Yes, if they are coming soon. But be prepared to back it up with examples and references to others who may corroborate your experiences.

send an anonymous letter to the GME?

Good start, with a copy to the department chair.


Call my CIR representative to represent me + others also anonymously?

Sure, if they have some power on your campus.

Send a letter to the local newspaper discussing how residents are abused?

While it sounds good, you are not likely to get any sympathy from the general public. You are a Mercedes driving, Gucci-wearing, money grubbing DOCTOR...what do YOU have to complain about? That will be the typical response. The public is much more sympathetic to things like work hour violations and things that endanger patients than you being yelled at. And sorry, but as a male, there will be many who will tell you to suck it up and stop being such a *&^%.

Talk to the woman and tell her we're going to do something-non anonymously obviously-?

Dicey. If she has power, she can (and may) make your life miserable to the point of trying to get rid of you. Believe me, whistleblowers in medicine can find themselves bearing the brunt of other's anger...they'll trump up some charges against you for their "case". If you have several others who can accompany you and make the same claims and complaints to her face, that's a different story - they can't fire the entire residency program.

Call equal employment office and file a complaint of sexism?
what else?

You may not be able to prove sexism as I'll be willing to bet she's pretty awful to the females as well. But you can file a complaint with your GME and HR offices that she is fostering an environment of harassment.

Do nothing. Which is always another option.

Yeah, its an option, but not one I recommend. While the track record of censuring attendings is not good, there are things you can do and in general, its worth doing, especially if the behavior in question is not directed only at you, but others as well.
 
I've honestly considered carrying around a tape recorder in my pocket to catch some of the things. That way at least should couldn't deny it without being shown to be a liar.

Has anybody done this?

Just hearsay, but I've heard of people who were so paranoid of being treated negatively during MS3 rotations and having their complaints turn into a he said/she said type of situation that wouldn't go anywhere and not to mention hurt their grades that they thought they would carry around a tape recorder to have firm evidence that could be used against a person should a nasty situation develop. (or even to go directly to that person and tell them that all can be forgiven if they shape up; ie a sort of blackmail I suppose)

Seems a bit overboard to me to carry a recorder around with you all of the time, but who knows, maybe that's the only way someone will act the way they should-if someone has firm proof of them acting inappropriately.
 
I don't care about my hurt feelings. I care about an unprofessional negative environment with an attending who is abusing her power and obviously has an anger management problem. I'm angry and frustrated that she's getting away with it. As for being targeted, i was thinking of something doing something anonymously. But i need ur ideas.
Should i:
tell the site visit people, who will cite the program for lack of professionalism?
send an anonymous letter to the GME?
Call my CIR representative to represent me + others also anonymously?
Send a letter to the local newspaper discussing how residents are abused?
Talk to the woman and tell her we're going to do something-non anonymously obviously-?
Call equal employment office and file a complaint of sexism?
what else?
Do nothing. Which is always another option.

Tito,

Please pay heed to eastcoastyall, whoopsie and swpm.

Sadly, they are very correct. I was in an institution like this once upon a time. The environment was miserable, the program dishonest. At a general staff meeting, I brought up a serious (and in my mind at least, easily remediable) issue which brought the program into substantial non-compliance with ACGME and RRC rules. Nothing changed for the better. After reporting these issues, I was accused of being "unprofessional" among other things. I was threatened with the loss of my position, and was directly told that the program and institution would "see to it I never practiced medicine again." A threat that very nearly came true. Lies were placed on paper, in records, nurses were solicited to see if any would "complain" against me. A memorandum was placed in a file by one of the chief residents indicating he would seek out nurses who would say disparaging things.

I was shocked and appalled at the depths of dishonesty and misconduct by this program and the hospital. These are not isolated incidents.

The simple fact is that this attending may indeed be unprofessional. That doesn't matter. The attending is politically well connected or they would not be in power. Abusive attendings have gotten away with much. I have been approached by a resident who have been solicited for sexual favors by an attending and when refused, got the abuse of her life. This is wrong, very wrong. She took her complaint to an official level and was told to drop the complaint or be dismissed from residency. This attending was very well connected and this was not an isolated incident. Tread lightly. Very lightly.

Anonymous action carries low likelihood of anyone taking the complaint seriously. It is, of course, a relatively safe position, but consider this: There are only a finite number of residents in your program and fewer still who have had interaction with the problem attending. Fewer still who have the cajones to say something. I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't take long to come up with a short list of who said what to whom.

Will the ACGME/RRC cite the program? They might. But they will not do this on an anonymous complaint. They want a signed letter which may or may not preserve anonymity. The site visitor is certainly the preferred contact, if it can be done safely and if they are willing to take you seriously.

CIR may be an option. We didn't have it, so on this you have to use your best judgement.

Going to the press is the atomic bomb. We considered using it in my situation and that still to this day remains an option if my former institution does any further harm. And I have the media contacts at the regional and national levels to put them on Prime Time TV, Live. But, if you do this, you will be in the center of a controversy and will have embarrased an institution in a position to do you great harm in your future career endeavors. This is the crux of the problem.

For now, CIR, if they have any power at all, as anonymously as possible, with as many of your colleagues as are willing to stick their neck on the gallows might be a possibility, but remember the first point above.

I would strongly suggest you start a journal, in a bound laboratory style notebook. Do not mention this to anyone, keep it at home and make periodic entries to document behavior and specific events. Keep it as factual as you can, and then someday, when you have been in practice for a few years and have the job of your dreams, then see if the issue is still a problem and then and only then decide if it's still worth it to protect your future colleagues from this abusive attending, then act. But act from a position of strength. As a resident, you are not in a position of strength.

EEOC and legal authorities tend to be hands off of physicians and physician training programs. They are afraid of the perceived complexities of the relationships and intervene very reluctantly.

I favor the last option. Sadly this is the nature of medical education in our country and those in power have, quite literally the power to destroy, completely. And with relative impunity. Tread lightly and be careful. PM me if you want more details. Good luck, keep your head low and hope the smelly stuff flying over you skips over.

Sorry to sound like such a pesimist, but I have been badly burned over similar issues and I have counselled a number of other residents who have likewise been seriously harmed by bad behavior by programs and institutions. Perhaps I am wrong, but personally, if I had it to do over again, I wouild be very circumspect. Good luck. Before I was in the middle of it, I always wondered why my medical friends (including influential attendings), were so paranoid when discussing their colleagues. Now, I know why.
 
We have a GME hotline where we can bypass a department or section chair and go straight to the director of GME.

I know one resident who complained about an attending in another department. Issues were resolved very quickly to say the least.
 
1. Know your state laws, some places it is illegal to carry a tape recorder and unknowingly tape record someone without their permission, this could get you kicked out of your residency program.

2. This person cares nothing about being mean to you, believe it or not she cares nothing about what she might do that might hurt your career and get you kicked out of residency, and it will be near impossible to get another residency again if you lose this one.

3. Talk to a lawyer outside of whatever malignant program you are in to advise you how to act, sometimes the rules of these places are geared towards protecting faculty and making you look bad, if you submit a complaint they can use that as evidence against you if anything appears out of whack.

4. DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT You should keep a journal, save emails, and document you attempts to work through the system to resolve this problem. But work carefully, state the FACTS of what she said and how it made you feel etc. . . Say NOTHING that can be used against you in the future.

I was involved with a case of medical student abuse/harassment and the lengths that this med school went to intimidate and harassment would make a normal person cry.
 
it is unfortunate that 3tdp's experience was unpleasant and the there was retaliation of his action. couple things,
1. there are rules in place to prevent these things from happening. the rules are at multiple levels. no matter how "powerful" the person is the can be reached by the GME, RRC, and the medical staff. creating a "hostile work environment" is a no no. goes along with sexual harassment. there are was of taking care of this, use your proper channels and chain of command. this is not how medical education was set up. you are protected on multiple levels.
2. it is difficult to prove that someone was just "being mean to you". you'll just get a response like, "oh, i'm sorry. did i hurt your feelings." you will need something a little more concrete. if she calls you a name (assult) or physical contact (battery), then you have more of a legal case.
3. this can be done anonymously. the ACGME has ways of reporting problem within a program to help ease the process

i would strongly recommend that you try to work within the system. attendings although some try to act like they are untouchable, they are more vulnerable than you thinnk.
 
3dtp is so correct, and I really wish you to listen to those of us who have personal examples of complaining/attempting to change the system backfiring in our face. My example? That will remain unsaid in this forum, albeit anonymous. But let it be said that I learned my lesson fast. Keep your head down, and let those who are less adept at navigating the system take the beating. What do you gain by speaking out against this attending? Maybe that you wouldn't be as sad during the small amount of time you interact with her. What do you potentially lose? Your career. Hmmmm, tough choice.

You clearly won't listen to reason, but for the other medical students out there who are reading this, be forwarned. Medical school and residency are not games. They are not fair. Do not complain about anything. Do not make yourself a target. You cannot change anything without risking your career. Stay clear of the wrath of those who control your fate. Good luck Tito, you need it.
 
again, as someone who has advocated for residents as a chief and attending, the most common reason that things persist is because no one says anything. so, if nothing changes nothing changes. i would go through the chain of command. speak with a resident friendly attending and get some advice from someone who knows your situation.

to put forth the false notion that nothing can change gives more power to those you are complaining about. if you complaints are true, then you will beable to find justice. do i need to mention catholic priests and altar boys?

you have rights and there are codes of conduct that we all have to adhere to.
 
Has anybody done this?

Just hearsay, but I've heard of people who were so paranoid of being treated negatively during MS3 rotations and having their complaints turn into a he said/she said type of situation that wouldn't go anywhere and not to mention hurt their grades that they thought they would carry around a tape recorder to have firm evidence that could be used against a person should a nasty situation develop. (or even to go directly to that person and tell them that all can be forgiven if they shape up; ie a sort of blackmail I suppose)

Seems a bit overboard to me to carry a recorder around with you all of the time, but who knows, maybe that's the only way someone will act the way they should-if someone has firm proof of them acting inappropriately.

Tape recording someone without their knowledge is illegal in many states. I can't imagine blackmail is well regarded, either.
 
Tape recording someone without their knowledge is illegal in many states. I can't imagine blackmail is well regarded, either.

Hmm, yeah the whole illegal thing would probably be a problem...

Wouldn't do it anyways, regardless of legality. Just seems overboard. Not to mention if somebody saw it, even people who were nice before now won't trust you and will treat you negatively, so it's just asking for trouble.


Now wearing a wire on the other hand...:smuggrin:
 
Sure, you can complain and see if you can change things. But I guarantee that there will be one of two scenerios:

1) You go down in flames as you realize that you are the medical equivalent of a migrant worker -- replaceable and transient. Meanwhile, the attending (or nurse or ER) continues on unscathed. Welcome to medical ethics!

2) You "win" ...a Pyrrhic victory. You change things and everyone hates you. For example, a Program Director can tell you "my door is always open for complaints." Great; you think he or she actually wants to see you there complaining? Nope. There's an unspoken rule that they say that and you nod blindly and never bother them ever again ...but if anyone asks, you tell them how your PD has this great "open door" policy. You could take them up on their offer, but you'd be labeled "the complainer" or "the malcontent." People would look down on you as weak and you'd be ostracized.

Pick your poison. It's about 90% Option 1 and 10% Option 2.
 
residency and abuse sucks is all i can say sucks big time
 
I just want to thank everyone for their advice, its a tough call all tracks. You do something u sulk, don't do anything it still sulks.
My fellow collegues are hesitant about doing anything, i'm not going out on a limb for them. Not the most heroic decision, but i guess i'm not as heroic as i'd like to be.
This is the beginning for me, i've got 2 yrs left. Wish me luck.
thanks again everyone
 
Hahaha, I love it.

I've honestly considered carrying around a tape recorder in my pocket to catch some of the things. That way at least should couldn't deny it without being shown to be a liar.

That would actually be a very easy thing to do and would certainly get some attention. You should post it on you tube.

Just kidding (not really) you would not be respected (except by me).
 
Why is it that people find it odd that someone would want a nurse to act professional? There's some schizoid divide where people say that nurses be accorded the respect of a health care member and yet are OK with them not acting in that regard.

Although an attending certainly has more impact on you, I could just as easily say that only an insecure resident would let an attending's actions get to them.

Here's an example. Let's say a nurse decided to be immature and bomb page you just for fun. And nurses brag about doing this, so it's not deniable that they do. If I became angry, you would probably just say, "hey, count to 10, take a few deep breaths, etc." or "you should examine yourself to see what you did to cause that." Some people say the same thing when an attending reams you out. What did you do that caused it? Medicine is, in many ways, B.S. Rather than change the institution, it's easier to change the individual. So the solution is to make the individual think that they are always in the wrong, which allows the institution to survive unchanged.

What sweeping changes have there been in the mentality of residency? The 80-hour work week, that's it. And that only occurred because of a completely misinformed lawsuit that was sensationalized -- in other words, the lawsuit may have led to the proper results (debatable, but whatever) but for the wrong reason. Point is, the only reason medicine changed was because of bad P.R. But no internal action would have ever taken place had there not been this overhyped publicity to the laypublic which didn't understand anything about it.

Don't expect the institution to change. The attending will be there long after you're gone. Therefore, you lose. That's the ethics of the medical field.

the lawsuit was not misinformed.... the patient clearly was critically ill.. but the intern who examined the patient couldnt know that because of her inexperience.. and she was so damn busy.... and she gave her demerol which reacterd with her maoi... the attending never saw the patient.. she went to the general floor and died..

if you report the attending... you WILL be a target.. no question and be prepared to suffer... and you may not even finish.. so when you wanna take someone down.. it is better if you dont have much to lose.. like if you were a fellow.. if they kick you out of fellowship no big deal.. you are a fully trained doc already.. if you get kicked out of med school or residency its much harder.. now to take this attending down, if many many people are on board with this grievance then it may be more believable
 
again, as someone who has advocated for residents as a chief and attending, the most common reason that things persist is because no one says anything. so, if nothing changes nothing changes. i would go through the chain of command. speak with a resident friendly attending and get some advice from someone who knows your situation.

to put forth the false notion that nothing can change gives more power to those you are complaining about. if you complaints are true, then you will beable to find justice. do i need to mention catholic priests and altar boys?

you have rights and there are codes of conduct that we all have to adhere to.
I am presently a chief resident. I do what I can to protect my residents. Period.

Since you mentioned Catholic priests, don't forget the Church covered this up for a generation (or perhaps much longer?) before it was finally acted upon.

Meantime, those in authority and perpetuators were continued in the cloth, shuffled between parishes or promoted out of the parish ministry. The Cannonical Laws (not to mention the civil laws) expressly prohibited this behavior, and further, scripture expressly condemned it, stating clear and devastating consequences and demonstrating those consequences with the destruction of two cities. Yet, it took over a generation before the Church acted, and at what cost to those who did bring these and other most serious matters to the attention of the Church heirarchy? And this behavior pre-dates the German Reformation, going back to at least the Second Lateran Council of 1130. Lesseee, 2007 - 1130 = 877 years!

So, please remember that, although many (probably the vast majority) of programs are honest and forthright, you (the individual resident) don't know the true flavor of the program until it's too late.

You are absolutely correct. The reason things do not change is because no one says anything. The reason no one says anything is because the programs (particularly the malignant ones) have the power to make an example of one who would speak, and that example is potentially career ending.

I have no doubt that your program is honorable and would follow its rules and procedures, but I have no guarantee, either. I trust your word on this. (Why? I'm not sure since we're discussing this on an open internet forum sans credentials and histories). The sad fact is that the converse is also true. My own track record is 50/50 based on n=2).

There are institutions that have a playbook, and in fact have a number of them. They call them the "appeals" or "grievance" or other similar sounding name and it is published and available for the site visitor. Then when called upon to follow its procedure, the procedure changes when it looks like a resident will prevail. In these institutions, the program/hospital uses those procedures to put on paper what will protect them from legal consequences of a foreordained outcome: a sanction of the resident raising the issue and a warning to all others who would act similarly.

JAMA published an article recently on this topic and the ACGME has reported survey results a convincing majority of residents are concerned about retaliation or retribution. (I'm writing this from memory as I don't recall the exact cite and don't have time to look it up. Sorry.) Anecdotally, I gotta believe there is a reason for this.
 
it is unfortunate that 3tdp's experience was unpleasant and the there was retaliation of his action. couple things,
1. there are rules in place to prevent these things from happening. the rules are at multiple levels. no matter how "powerful" the person is the can be reached by the GME, RRC, and the medical staff. creating a "hostile work environment" is a no no. goes along with sexual harassment. there are was of taking care of this, use your proper channels and chain of command. this is not how medical education was set up. you are protected on multiple levels.
2. it is difficult to prove that someone was just "being mean to you". you'll just get a response like, "oh, i'm sorry. did i hurt your feelings." you will need something a little more concrete. if she calls you a name (assult) or physical contact (battery), then you have more of a legal case.
3. this can be done anonymously. the ACGME has ways of reporting problem within a program to help ease the process

i would strongly recommend that you try to work within the system. attendings although some try to act like they are untouchable, they are more vulnerable than you thinnk.

Stalin once said, "Let the people vote. The vote doesn't count. The people who count the vote count."

The rules at multiple levels are only as good as the ability to get them enforced. And if an institution tolerates the breaking of one rule or set of rules, does that reassure you that they will not equally tolerate the breaking or ignoring of the next set?

The institutional requirements mandate the establishment of such rules. The ACGME oversees this, but the ACGME also clearly states it will not mediate an individual resident grievance. Where, precisely, does that leave the aggrieved resident?

I do agree, that in an above-board institution, attendings are vulnerable, but, if attendings are vulnerable, then what about those down the heirarchy? Are they not more vulnerable yet?
 
I had the exact same situation as 3dtp. It was a tough call to complain and initiate change and I paid a VERY DEAR PRICE. If I had to do it over again....I WOULD!!! It is like what Pedi said nothing will change if no one does anything about it.

My story ended with my resignation ( before they could do anything... Believe me there was a fire lit under my a#$$ ), the PD getting FIRED and the program now under investigation by the RRC.

The program...very dishonest, and started back tracking fabricating documents I never saw before...THe WHOLE BIT.

I am moving on and am going to prevail. The struggle was worth it because if someone had stepped in before me I would not have gone through what I did. Now no one will have to go through that at that program AGAIN.
 
My story ended with my resignation ( before they could do anything... Believe me there was a fire lit under my a#$$ ), the PD getting FIRED and the program now under investigation by the RRC.

You're THE MAN. Anyone who can take on the machine and win, well, you have my respect.
 
thank you, I appreciate that.
 
So after you resigned, what happened? Did you manage to find another program?
 
maybe this is totally stupid...but what about just standing up for yourself to her directly? I'm not suggesting a shouting match, but what if you just told her the next time she belittles you that you don't appreciate her tone/do not appreciate being disrespected/that she needs to express herself in a more appropriate manner...I don't know. I just can't imagine having someone belittle me so directly and I just sit there and take it. I wouldn't necessarily run and tell someone else, but I think I'd stand up for myself. You don't have to yell or swear, but can you just let her know in no uncertain terms that while she may be able to do that to other people, you will not accept that?
Like I said, maybe this is totally stupid, but in my experience, bullies (and that's what she is) only pick on the people who will let them.
 
maybe this is totally stupid...but what about just standing up for yourself to her directly? I'm not suggesting a shouting match, but what if you just told her the next time she belittles you that you don't appreciate her tone/do not appreciate being disrespected/that she needs to express herself in a more appropriate manner...I don't know. I just can't imagine having someone belittle me so directly and I just sit there and take it. I wouldn't necessarily run and tell someone else, but I think I'd stand up for myself. You don't have to yell or swear, but can you just let her know in no uncertain terms that while she may be able to do that to other people, you will not accept that?
Like I said, maybe this is totally stupid, but in my experience, bullies (and that's what she is) only pick on the people who will let them.


I can certainly understand your advice and in most worlds, that would probably be fine. However, medicine in populated with egocentric, immature bullies that would retaliate against someone who stood up to them.

And in most resident's minds, the potential for career damage is not worth it. The stories of PDs and faculty members ruining a resident's reputation and/or career are legion. Suffice it to say that many, if not most, residents do not report bad behavior, work hour violations, etc. because of fear of losing their jobs. And unfortunately, ACGME doesn't protect the whistleblower, and you cannot count on your program to help you.

This is not to defend the common practice of simply taking it, but rather to point out that its understandable.
 
1. Video several minutes of solid footage of her acting out. Do this without her knowledge. A cell phone camera will do, but a small hidden camera is even better.

2. Watermark the video with her name and the name of the institution where she practices. Include contact information such as pager numbers, personal emails, and office phone numbers in the watermark as well.

3. Upload the video to YouTube.

4. Alert every medical school and resident blogger to your video to increase exposure.

4. Post a thread at SDN under an anonymous username with a link to the YouTube video. Encourage people to use the contact information through an anonymous Skype VoIP connection to make prank calls and pager bomb the attending.

4. Submit the video to Digg.com in the science/health section and to Reddit.com.

5. Post the first comments to your submission at Digg and Reddit, and encourage the Digg community to use the watermarked contact information to contact the attending through Skype. Prank calls are fun.

5. Get 20-30 of your friends to vote for the video at Digg and Reddit so that it has a better chance of making the front page of these social networking sites.

6. Sit back and laugh as her video gets hundreds of thousands of views and while her cell phone, office phone, and pager blows up continuously.
 
I resigned. Went right next door to the big academic program and took a 2 year research position while I am planning my next move (looking for a 3rd year spot). Meanwhile, I'm publishing my rear end off, learning how to write grants and when the time comes...the past will be a distant memory. What they sometimes don't realize is there is a flipside to the whole "scared to lose my job" issue. We don't have a whole hell of a lot to lose. If you have good numbers, a solid degree...we are marketable.:)
So after you resigned, what happened? Did you manage to find another program?

 
I resigned. Went right next door to the big academic program and took a 2 year research position while I am planning my next move (looking for a 3rd year spot). Meanwhile, I'm publishing my rear end off, learning how to write grants and when the time comes...the past will be a distant memory. What they sometimes don't realize is there is a flipside to the whole "scared to lose my job" issue. We don't have a whole hell of a lot to lose. If you have good numbers, a solid degree...we are marketable.:)



Good for you. While unfortunate that it had to happen, as you noted, you didn't have a lot to lose at that point.

Best of luck to you...
 
Guys, I am curious. If a person is willing to sell their pride and dignity by taking abuse and insults for the sake of medicine, how is that person any different from a "2 dollar *****".
 
1. Video several minutes of solid footage of her acting out. Do this without her knowledge. A cell phone camera will do, but a small hidden camera is even better.

2. Watermark the video with her name and the name of the institution where she practices. Include contact information such as pager numbers, personal emails, and office phone numbers in the watermark as well.

3. Upload the video to YouTube.

4. Alert every medical school and resident blogger to your video to increase exposure.

4. Post a thread at SDN under an anonymous username with a link to the YouTube video. Encourage people to use the contact information through an anonymous Skype VoIP connection to make prank calls and pager bomb the attending.

4. Submit the video to Digg.com in the science/health section and to Reddit.com.

5. Post the first comments to your submission at Digg and Reddit, and encourage the Digg community to use the watermarked contact information to contact the attending through Skype. Prank calls are fun.

5. Get 20-30 of your friends to vote for the video at Digg and Reddit so that it has a better chance of making the front page of these social networking sites.

6. Sit back and laugh as her video gets hundreds of thousands of views and while her cell phone, office phone, and pager blows up continuously.

Actually you could just hide the video and gather some more evidence, and when next she acts up, you could tell her you have had enough of that nonsense. If the program victimizes you, use the video for a nice lawsuit. Make sure to sue them for all future potential lost wages and emotional distress to your family.
 
Guys, I am curious. If a person is willing to sell their pride and dignity by taking abuse and insults for the sake of medicine, how is that person any different from a "2 dollar *****".

I'm not.

Don't tell my wife.
 
Just to reiterate, retaliation can be nearly impossible to fight. In our program, I almost did not get signed off for graduation because of 2 people. Nearly all of my evaluations were great, my academic performance has been good, especially this year, and I matched at an unparalleled fellowship. However, speaking up about a couple of issues that could have easily been fixed (I spoke up hoping to help fix them) led to retaliation for years.

On the other hand, some changes have started to happen. The stimulus was our anonymous program evaluation. The residents essentially banded together and wrote TERRIBLE (but true) evaluations. No holds were barred, and most allegations came with detailed support that could be easily verified. The evaluations were the worst the program has ever had in its history, and they came to the attention of both GME and upper administration.

It's too bad it took that to get things done, and the situation here is nowhere near fixed, but one or two onerous problems were resolved by order of administration.
 
Retaliation is near impossible to fight. Examples might be a poor evaluation at the end of a clinical rotation period where you were given NO input, and harassed to whatever degree. This is done subconciously as well as on a concious level, the thinking is that someone who is complaining about the treatment of students/residents must be a "complainer" period and not doing their work and not enthusiastic about medicine because any serious student of medicine would take any abuse just to be around them. I think the opposite is true, if you are concerned about the patient part of that is correcting abuse in the workplace which is distracting to everyone. It probably helps to gather together as a group of students/residents as an individual your options are limited and you can easily become frustrated, harassment and abuse is the pink elephant no one will talk about.

I had a surgery resident who was very abusive, and taught us nothing, and came into the first meeting using profanity, I thought this was unbelievable, but the small group settings of medicine allow this. For example, if you are with an abusive attending, two residents, and four medicine students, the attending can do all they want because one of their peers is not there to correct them, the residents are afraid because the attending is above them, and the students are afraid of everyone. The attending may even have a reputation for being abusive or put in different words, but if no other attending has seen this then it is hard to prove, unless a group of residents come together.

I would be careful with an open door policy, and would go to the director as a group. Comittee people/directors setup to deal with abuse often do their best to discourage you from pursuing the matter, and will not investigate their colleagues, this is up to you. Make detailed observations of the abuse, get an attorney involved, have other students/residents make signed statements and give them to your attorney. I would not give the institution the informal opportunity to deal with the abuse themselves, or even to confront the attending. Then when you have the documentation go to the director, give them the documents you have, and tell them what you would like done. Remember, if your home institution or program turns a blind eye to abuse, then they will have no qualms about harassing you and putting you in situations to make you look bad and get kicked out. A program with a history of abuse is a big red flag.


You have to plan for the worst-case scenario, and this means using lawyers and being very careful about what information you give. All the program director sees is someone who is complaining about a certain faculty member, which whom they maybe close friends and may have rationalized their behavior to continue to interact with them. If you take it seriously with documents and lawyers, this can snap them out of their fantasy that nothing is wrong with the program. You can't just walk in to Dr. Director and say, "Hi Bob, can I call you Bob? Anyway, your friend Dr. BigMouth is yelling at everyone Bob, he's getting alot of us residents upset, most of us are very depressed and have trouble being around Dr. BigMouth, he uses profanity, racial slurs . . . (insert complaint). So look here Bob, you have to stop Dr. BigMouth or alot of us residents are going to keep on being upset and depressed." Now you wouldn't say this, but this is what it sounds like to Dr. Director, remember, even physicians are afraid of criticizing each other. Ultimately, though workplace harassment is a real legal issue, and bringing it up is the same as accussing your program/hospital of say kicking patients out of the hospital too early. So, take your time, gather evidence, talk to people, and make complaint, maybe if you can wait you can do it after you have left said residency if this happened in your last 1-2 years. I know it sounds cold, "Oh by the way Dr. Director, I have an issue I had during residency here that my lawyer will be happy to talk with you and the GME about, I will leave the paperwork on your desk here, I have enjoyed my recent past 4 months as a private practice attending/academic attending at institution X but felt the need to address this issue which I did not feel comfortable addressing while a resident . . . " But, Dr. Director may likely already know what is going on, and to go after these people unprepared can have devastating consequences.
 
So, take your time, gather evidence, talk to people, and make complaint, maybe if you can wait you can do it after you have left said residency if this happened in your last 1-2 years. I know it sounds cold, "Oh by the way Dr. Director, I have an issue I had during residency here that my lawyer will be happy to talk with you and the GME about, I will leave the paperwork on your desk here, I have enjoyed my recent past 4 months as a private practice attending/academic attending at institution X but felt the need to address this issue which I did not feel comfortable addressing while a resident . . . " But, Dr. Director may likely already know what is going on, and to go after these people unprepared can have devastating consequences.

Good point. Like someone else already pointed out, it is a good idea to gather evidence. Those hidden camera videos are golden. Even if you don't use the evidence, just hold it as a last resort weapon. If they screw you, then you can take them straight to the hoop. Remember that the legal arena is a whole different ballgame, and little things like video evidence typically yield great result$$$.
 
Just take the "abuse" "Gee, somebody at work who I don't ever have to work with again calls me names and swears." Big deal.
 
i am totally enamored with all of the statements of getting lawyers involved and gathering evidence. don't work through the given channels but let's work behind the scenes and make a video put it on youtube like lindsey lohan. that works very well on grey's anatomy and er, but not so much in real life.

there are pluses and minuses to everything that may be proposed. there are systems in place for you. the ACGME provides the guidelines of what to do in an anonymous way Complaint Procedures they have even made a statement to residents and medicals students about how they are in the process of rectifying situations Letter to Residents from the ACGME

i truly recommend that people work with the system in place to help your situation. the malignancy of the past is changing and not well tolerated today. i think that you may be surprised. http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/resInfo/ri_complaint.asp
 
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