Academic Integrity - Would you ever cheat?

[mechie]

I had seen a question of this sort pop up on another forum, and most of the undergraduates said that they wouldn't. Most commented and said that the reason they wouldn't is because of the disciplinary action that would follow if they were caught. I was disappointed that nobody said they would choose not to cheat because it was the ethical thing to do.

I'm interested in seeing what the response would be here. Medical school admissions are an extremely competitive process, and people will do whatever it takes to get in. Would that mean cheating on an examination or assignment?

This is an anonymous poll so I hope people answer honestly.

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[BigRedPremed]

It's just not worth it. So what if you get a B or C on a midterm? In the grand scheme of things, the grade will be forgotten. If you do cheat, I bet it will stick with you all through college (or at least it will be on my conscience for a long time).

 

[OncoCaP]

I had seen a question of this sort pop up on another forum, and most of the undergraduates said that they wouldn't. Most commented and said that the reason they wouldn't is because of the disciplinary action that would follow if they were caught. I was disappointed that nobody said they would choose not to cheat because it was the ethical thing to do.

I'm interested in seeing what the response would be here. Medical school admissions are an extremely competitive process, and people will do whatever it takes to get in. Would that mean cheating on an examination or assignment?

This is an anonymous poll so I hope people answer honestly.

I'm sure you know the answer to your question. Yes, people cheat in school to varying degrees. Some commit rather flagrant violations (bringing answers into exams or copying from another student) and others perhaps copy an assignment (some students don't even consider this to be cheating), etc. It would be a rare person who never gave or received help on anything not explicitly authorized by the professor. I never worried enough about med school admissions to feel the need to cheat and I also consider myself as having high ethical standards. However, I certainly have on some occasions collaborated with other students on assignments in a way that could be considered cheating; I didn't make a habit of it. I'm not sure why you are bringing this up. Are you feeling tempted to cheat? Do you feel at a disadvantage because you think others are cheating more? Certainly some pre-med students have high ethical standards; most pre-meds are going to be average (almost by definition). I doubt many people would cheat on an in-class exam. Many people work together on assignments and share answers, even if the professor was perhaps hoping that students do their own work.

P.S. The initial poll results probably reflect that most students do no consider studying together and helping each other on an assignment (including sharing answers, etc.) to be cheating (as it is common practice), even though by a strict definition it probably is cheating even though no one seems to really care too much about that. There may be some differences in what is considered cheating.

 

[MirrorTodd]

I've gotten help before on assignments from fellow classmates, but I am seriously opposed to getting help. I figure if I can't get it myself, then it's not meant to be gotten by me.

 

[Anjlprincezz]

I would never cheat on an exam or anything like that but i too have colloborated on assignments, helped out my friends/cousins, in ways that could be construed as cheating, i guess it all depends on ur definition of cheating...

 

[bigDee]

I think you need to differentiate cheating on an exam and an assignment. You can not make it an absolute "to cheat or not to cheat". Many people would not care of the ethics in cheating on a weekly quiz that weighs into about .5% of their grade. Cheating on a full blown major exam is different though. You can say cheating is cheating but I don't think so. That's like saying stealing a grape from the grocery store is ethically the same wrong as robbing a bank. There are different degrees of immorality and so you have to point out the different degrees of cheating.
Some schools are extremely strict on cheating so cheating on that weekly word-root quiz in bio may get you expelled as cheating on something major would. But we are talking about ethics here so lets just assume that in either situation no one gets caught and the only deciding factor is the morale of the cheater, not the consequences.

 

[OncoCaP]

I think you need to differentiate cheating on an exam and an assignment. You can not make it an absolute "to cheat or not to cheat". Many people would not care of the ethics in cheating on a weekly quiz that weighs into about .5% of their grade. Cheating on a full blown major exam is different though. You can say cheating is cheating but I don't think so. That's like saying stealing a grape from the grocery store is ethically the same wrong as robbing a bank. There are different degrees of immorality and so you have to point out the different degrees of cheating.
Some schools are extremely strict on cheating so cheating on that weekly word-root quiz in bio may get you expelled as cheating on something major would. But we are talking about ethics here so lets just assume that in either situation no one gets caught and the only deciding factor is the morale of the cheater, not the consequences.

I think part of the issue here is that even though you may not want to cheat when your classmate (who you like say) asks, "I'm having trouble with #3 on the homework. Did you get that one? ... Great, how did you do it?", only a very rare bird would say, "I'm sorry, helping you with a homework assignment is against school policy!" That highly ethical student would need to be prepared to spend the UG years very alone.

 

[bigDee]

I think part of the issue here is that even though you may not want to cheat when your classmate (who you like say) asks, "I'm having trouble with #3 on the homework. Did you get that one? ... Great, how did you do it?", only a very rare bird would say, "I'm sorry, helping you with a homework assignment is against school policy and I'm afraid I'm going have to turn you in now, since that is required by the policy!" That highly ethical student would need to be prepared to spend the UG years very alone.

LOL exactly. No one would try to justify it, its just that when the degree of immorality is so low, no one cares.

 

[bigDee]

P.S. The initial poll results probably reflect that most students do no consider studying together and helping each other on an assignment (including sharing answers, etc.) to be cheating (as it is common practice), even though by a strict definition it probably is cheating even though no one seems to really care too much about that. There may be some differences in what is considered cheating.

It's not about what is considered cheating. That isn't hard to define. It's about how far you are willing to go with it.

 

[OncoCaP]

LOL exactly. No one would try to justify it, its just that when the degree of immorality is so low, no one cares.

Here is UT Austin's code:

http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/sjs/scholdis_collaboration.php
"If you work with another person on an assignment for credit without the instructor's permission to do so, you are engaging in unauthorized collaboration.

"This common form of academic dishonesty can occur with all types of scholastic work—papers, homework, tests (take-home or in-class), lab reports, computer programming projects, or any other assignments to be submitted for credit.

"For the University's official definitions of unauthorized collaboration and the related offense of collusion, see Sections 11-802(c)(6) & 11-802(e), Institutional Rules on Student Services and Activities.

"Grade-related penalties are routinely assessed ("F" in the course is not uncommon), but students can also be suspended or even permanently expelled from the University for scholastic dishonesty.

"Other potential consequences can be particularly far-reaching, such as the creation of a disciplinary record that may very well impact future opportunities.

"Furthermore, incidents of scholastic dishonesty diminish the overall value of scholastic achievements on this campus and reflect poorly on the University.

 

[OncoCaP]

It's not about what is considered cheating. That isn't hard to define. It's about how far you are willing to go with it.

So what fraction of college students do you think have never worked (e.g., talked about answers or how they solved it) with another student about an assignment without their instructor's permission during their entire college career? I would venture guess maybe 1 in 100,000. It would most likely be someone who doesn't talk with other students in their class -- ever.

 

[Anjlprincezz]

It's not about what is considered cheating. That isn't hard to define. It's about how far you are willing to go with it.

$50 far enough?

 

[blargh]

on one hand, some schools go too far with their definition of cheating. on the other hand, some people go too far with cheating.

i've had people try to cheat off of me when they thought i wasn't paying attention. it is the most annoying thing. i studied my ass off for my A, and i sure as hell am not going to share it with someone who doesn't deserve it.

also, during the AP chem test, i had the kid sitting next to me actually say "hey.. i'm really screwed, i'm really going to need your help on this one. i need to cheat off you." i didn't know what to say, so i told him "sure." then i faced the wall and covered my test like crazy.

 

[bigDee]

$50 far enough?

lol I told you dude I turned it down. I wasn't even considering it I just thought it would make for a half interesting story.

 

[SurgeonUFO]

In high school bio, I once looked over at the guy next to me and saw he was answering the same question as me differently. Then I realized I had read the question wrong and changed my answer.

I still feel bad about it.

 

[etf]

Many people would not care of the ethics in cheating on a weekly quiz that weighs into about .5% of their grade. Cheating on a full blown major exam is different though.

i don't think that it's any different, partially because i don't see the point in cheating on something that is worth 0.5% of your grade. why risk everything you've worked for, in order to reap a "reward" that's negligible. i don't cheat, but i think if i ever were to cheat, it would probably be on something huge like a final or something. once you get caught, you're toast - so it better have been worth it.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

So what fraction of college students do you think have never worked (e.g., talked about answers or how they solved it) with another student about an assignment without their instructor's permission during their entire college career? I would venture guess maybe 1 in 100,000. It would most likely be someone who doesn't talk with other students in their class -- ever.

Some professors allow (even encourage) students to work together to understand & solve homework problems. If the professor specifically prohibits such collaboration, it is absolutely cheating and I flat out wouldn't do it. And I don't think I'm 1 in 100,000, and I talk to plenty of people in class.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think you need to differentiate cheating on an exam and an assignment. You can not make it an absolute "to cheat or not to cheat". Many people would not care of the ethics in cheating on a weekly quiz that weighs into about .5% of their grade. Cheating on a full blown major exam is different though. You can say cheating is cheating but I don't think so. That's like saying stealing a grape from the grocery store is ethically the same wrong as robbing a bank. There are different degrees of immorality and so you have to point out the different degrees of cheating.
Some schools are extremely strict on cheating so cheating on that weekly word-root quiz in bio may get you expelled as cheating on something major would. But we are talking about ethics here so lets just assume that in either situation no one gets caught and the only deciding factor is the morale of the cheater, not the consequences.

This is the attitude that gets people into big trouble for doing stupid things. Ethically wrong is wrong and there is no need for degree. Cheating is never right, even if its a little cheat. You may not personally consider it as bad, but you don't make up the rules, you live under them.

And you HAVE to assume the consequences when weighing risks. While you may personally differentiate degree in cheating, the school won't when they catch you, and the med school won't when they deny you admission. You can screw your life up just as bad. So in fact by your logic you should really only be cheating on really big things, because the risk is never worth the reward on the little ones.

 

[Law2Doc]

Some professors allow (even encourage) students to work together to understand & solve homework problems. If the professor specifically prohibits such collaboration, it is absolutely cheating and I flat out wouldn't do it. And I don't think I'm 1 in 100,000, and I talk to plenty of people in class.

Agree. The people who think the odds are that drastic are blinded by the fact that they are in the other camp, surrounded by others like them. In fact, honest people are not a rarity.

 

[univscience]

Here is UT Austin's code:

http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/sjs/scholdis_collaboration.php
"If you work with another person on an assignment for credit without the instructor's permission to do so, you are engaging in unauthorized collaboration.

"This common form of academic dishonesty can occur with all types of scholastic work—papers, homework, tests (take-home or in-class), lab reports, computer programming projects, or any other assignments to be submitted for credit.

"For the University's official definitions of unauthorized collaboration and the related offense of collusion, see Sections 11-802(c)(6) & 11-802(e), Institutional Rules on Student Services and Activities.

"Grade-related penalties are routinely assessed ("F" in the course is not uncommon), but students can also be suspended or even permanently expelled from the University for scholastic dishonesty.

"Other potential consequences can be particularly far-reaching, such as the creation of a disciplinary record that may very well impact future opportunities.

"Furthermore, incidents of scholastic dishonesty diminish the overall value of scholastic achievements on this campus and reflect poorly on the University.

NO STUDY GROUPS. i 'd

i've cheated before not proud but it was necessary.

 

[geogil]

This is the attitude that gets people into big trouble for doing stupid things. Ethically wrong is wrong and there is no need for degree. Cheating is never right, even if its a little cheat. You may not personally consider it as bad, but you don't make up the rules, you live under them.

:

Thank you!!! Finally someone steps up and says that wrong is wrong, regardless of degree. Theft of a grape is still just as much stealing as theft of an automobile. The punishment is not the same, but they are both still wrong. By the same token, glancing at your neighbor's paper during a 10 pt quiz is still just as much cheating as if you copied their whole paper during the exam. Fortunately, there is a darwinian process that weeds cheaters out. Eventually they either get caught, turned in, or their shortcuts short change them when they eventually need the knowledge that they supposedly already know.

 

[geogil]

NO STUDY GROUPS. i 'd

i've cheated before not proud but it was necessary.

What concievable circumstances rendered cheating 'necessary'? , you're not breaking the law to feed a starving family, so what made you break the academic law?

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Thank you!!! Finally someone steps up and says that wrong is wrong, regardless of degree. Theft of a grape is still just as much stealing as theft of an automobile. The punishment is not the same, but they are both still wrong. By the same token, glancing at your neighbor's paper during a 10 pt quiz is still just as much cheating as if you copied their whole paper during the exam. Fortunately, there is a darwinian process that weeds cheaters out. Eventually they either get caught, turned in, or their shortcuts short change them when they eventually need the knowledge that they supposedly already know.

It would be nice if this were true in every case, but it's probably not. Still, whether cheating eventually catches up with people or not, there's a lot to be said for living with integrity.

 

[geogil]

True. I wish the darwinian process were much faster and universal. Unfortunately, sometimes it only catches up years down the line. Can you imagine your malpractice defense after cheating in med school ? "Your Honor, I didn't learn the material, I cheated. Can you please let me off the hook 'cause I'm really sorry." I just don't understand what makes cheating justifiable in some people's eyes.

 

[Law2Doc]

True. I wish the darwinian process were much faster and universal. Unfortunately, sometimes it only catches up years down the line. Can you imagine your malpractice defense after cheating in med school ? "Your Honor, I didn't learn the material, I cheated. Can you please let me off the hook 'cause I'm really sorry." I just don't understand what makes cheating justifiable in some people's eyes.

It wouldn't as likely come up in malpractice type issues. People with ethical shortcomings tend to make ethical mistakes. That means cheating on medicaid reimbursement forms, taxes, etc.

 

[jochi1543]

I don't think I've cheated at all in undergrad....in HS, yes, but I went to HS in Russia, where cheating is a huge part of the academic culture. Here no one really does it. I've only seen a person cheat once, and he was an Asian exchange student, so I bet the cultural upbringing had something to do with him choosing to do it. I reported him, btw.

Honestly, I find that in most courses, cheating won't help, since it's your thinking that is tested along with the knowledge. It's like cheating on the MCAT - kind of useless, really.

 

[GujuMD]

i've cheated before not proud but it was necessary.

What was the situation? no matter what the situation is, there is always an alternative to cheating-don't cheat, yeah...you may get a lower grade but you could get suspended/expelled if you get caught.

 

[munnabhai]

Here is UT Austin's code:

http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/sjs/scholdis_collaboration.php
"If you work with another person on an assignment for credit without the instructor's permission to do so, you are engaging in unauthorized collaboration.

"This common form of academic dishonesty can occur with all types of scholastic work—papers, homework, tests (take-home or in-class), lab reports, computer programming projects, or any other assignments to be submitted for credit.

"For the University's official definitions of unauthorized collaboration and the related offense of collusion, see Sections 11-802(c)(6) & 11-802(e), Institutional Rules on Student Services and Activities.

"Grade-related penalties are routinely assessed ("F" in the course is not uncommon), but students can also be suspended or even permanently expelled from the University for scholastic dishonesty.

"Other potential consequences can be particularly far-reaching, such as the creation of a disciplinary record that may very well impact future opportunities.

"Furthermore, incidents of scholastic dishonesty diminish the overall value of scholastic achievements on this campus and reflect poorly on the University.

I have yet to come across a professor who discourages collaboration on homeworks and class assignments. That said, studying alone works best for me.

 

[Institute]

I had seen a question of this sort pop up on another forum, and most of the undergraduates said that they wouldn't. Most commented and said that the reason they wouldn't is because of the disciplinary action that would follow if they were caught. I was disappointed that nobody said they would choose not to cheat because it was the ethical thing to do.

I'm interested in seeing what the response would be here. Medical school admissions are an extremely competitive process, and people will do whatever it takes to get in. Would that mean cheating on an examination or assignment?

This is an anonymous poll so I hope people answer honestly.

I don't cheat because I only cheat myself. I love to understand material, even if I can't do well in it. Cheating just makes me fake.

 

[etf]

This is the attitude that gets people into big trouble for doing stupid things. Ethically wrong is wrong and there is no need for degree. Cheating is never right, even if its a little cheat. You may not personally consider it as bad, but you don't make up the rules, you live under them.

And you HAVE to assume the consequences when weighing risks. While you may personally differentiate degree in cheating, the school won't when they catch you, and the med school won't when they deny you admission. You can screw your life up just as bad. So in fact by your logic you should really only be cheating on really big things, because the risk is never worth the reward on the little ones.

pretty much sums up my attitude on the matter.

 

[Karina 07]

What concievable circumstances rendered cheating 'necessary'? , you're not breaking the law to feed a starving family, so what made you break the academic law?

Actually, I can imagine circumstances in which it WOULD be to feed a starving family. Not saying those were the poster's circumstances, just saying I can imagine a scenario.

E.g. poster is on the edge of winning an award that comes with a $ gift, and his family is starving . Or has cancer and no money to pay for treatments, etc. Cheating is the only way for him to win the award, because of whatever inability in the subject or whatever.

There is also the moral philosophy that the ends justify the means, if you subscribe to that. E.g. poster needs to cheat to get good enough grades to immediately go into medical school, and from there donate all his money to charity or only serve the very poor for free, etc., and delaying medical school by another year to get there honestly would mean 5 poor people die or whatever. Again, I'm not making any normative argument, I am just saying that there are some philosophies under which cheating may well be morally imperative and the good thing to due under some circumstances.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

I caught a number of people cheating during my time as a TA in undergrad bio and chem. Often the way I caught them was because they would both have the same weird WRONG answer, down to the exact same WRONG CALCULATIONS. I'm not talking about common errors that you'd see a lot of people make, I'm talking about completely out-of-left-field answers obviously conjured up by someone who had no idea what they were talking about. It just amazed me that if people were going to bother to cheat, they didn't make the effort to avoid cheating off someone even dumber than they were.

By the way, even though I caught people red handed, they almost never had to face serious consequences. The university administration seemed more concerned about getting sued, so it was next-to-impossible to impose serious sanctions or put indications in people's academic records. About the worst we could do was fail them for the class ... but the thing is, most of them were already failing anyway.

 

[OncoCaP]

Some professors allow (even encourage) students to work together to understand & solve homework problems. If the professor specifically prohibits such collaboration, it is absolutely cheating and I flat out wouldn't do it. And I don't think I'm 1 in 100,000, and I talk to plenty of people in class.

Note the policy (I'm not sure how your school's policy is ... your school might be different):

http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/sjs...laboration.php
"If you work with another person on an assignment for credit without the instructor's permission to do so, you are engaging in unauthorized collaboration.

This means that you need to get permission. The instructor must say something like "you have permission to work with other students on assignments." If the instructor doesn't say anything, it's forbidden to talk about assignment solutions, answers, or methods, etc. The instructor forbidding it is automatic by the policy.

I personally think this is not a good policy. It would have been better in my opinion if it said something like "sharing answers or direct copying" is cheating rather than just discussing the approach, but, hey, I'm not a dean.

So, if you ever helped a student or talked about answers or methods related to a homework assignment (e.g., organic chemistry lab, calculus, physics etc.) at my school you are a cheater per this policy. At my school, the students were very social and worked together a lot. It would be hard for me to imagine someone not ever working with their friends on homework. In the upper division classes, it was a given that you would help your classmates (particularly your lab partners) answer assignment questions. For many people, it is probably as much social as learning the material and getting a good grade.

My point is that there are different kinds of cheating. It would have been my preference to do homework independently because I like following rules. However, I don't like being rude to my classmates either. It is a general consensus among students at my school that working together on assignments is not cheating as long as a student isn't just copying the work of others. I suspect most faculty would be fine with it as long as there wasn't mindless copying going on (and some did give explicit permission for students to work together, but that was not the norm). It would have been awkward and highly unusual never to study with anyone (before I was married anyway ... now it's different). In fact, it would have been considered very rude not to help classmates. So, I tried to generally provide people with the least amount of "help" while not being insensitive to their expectations.

I would not cheat on an exam or copy someone else's lab report or paper and turn it in as my own. However, I would not tell fellow classmates, "Helping would be cheating" if they asked me for assistance on a homework assignment. If I was totally stuck, I would most likely ask the TA or instructor for help even if it was inconvenient, but not everyone is that way.

 

[OncoCaP]

I have yet to come across a professor who discourages collaboration on homeworks and class assignments. That said, studying alone works best for me.

I agree. However, most didn't explicitly permit it either. They would be upset if you copied another person's work without understanding it, but not if you were trying to teach each other the material (concepts, etc.) related to a homework assignment problem.

Let me give an analogy: speeding (even 1 mph over) is breaking the law unless you have a true emergency (rushing someone to the hospital, etc.). However, if you are going the speedlimit of 60mph on a congested freeway where everyone else is going 85 mph, you become a traffic hazard. Better to go with the flow (speed up to 85) in heavy speading traffic. If the traffic is light, then I agree that you shouldn't speed. I see it as a matter of considering not only the expectations of your "boss" but also the expectations of the people around you. Pick your battles, so to speak.

 

[OncoCaP]

Actually, I can imagine circumstances in which it WOULD be to feed a starving family. Not saying those were the poster's circumstances, just saying I can imagine a scenario.

E.g. poster is on the edge of winning an award that comes with a $ gift, and his family is starving . Or has cancer and no money to pay for treatments, etc. Cheating is the only way for him to win the award, because of whatever inability in the subject or whatever.

There is also the moral philosophy that the ends justify the means, if you subscribe to that. E.g. poster needs to cheat to get good enough grades to immediately go into medical school, and from there donate all his money to charity or only serve the very poor for free, etc., and delaying medical school by another year to get there honestly would mean 5 poor people die or whatever. Again, I'm not making any normative argument, I am just saying that there are some philosophies under which cheating may well be morally imperative and the good thing to due under some circumstances.

Yes, for many people the end justifies the means (within certain limits). Personally, I would probably try to find another way to feed the starving family, if possible.

I caught a number of people cheating during my time as a TA in undergrad bio and chem. Often the way I caught them was because they would both have the same weird WRONG answer, down to the exact same WRONG CALCULATIONS.

Mindless copying bothered me as well. I usually just gave them an F on the assignment if I found a wrong weird answer. It was hard for the student to challenge an assignment F for obvious cheating and not such a big deal that the administration would have to get involved. Obviously if they got the right answer there was really nothing you could do.

 

[Law2Doc]

Let me give an analogy: speeding (even 1 mph over) is breaking the law unless you have a true emergency (rushing someone to the hospital, etc.). However, if you are going the speedlimit of 60mph on a congested freeway where everyone else is going 85 mph, you become a traffic hazard. Better to go with the flow (speed up to 85) in heavy speading traffic. If the traffic is light, then I agree that you shouldn't speed. I see it as a matter of considering not only the expectations of your "boss" but also the expectations of the people around you. Pick your battles, so to speak.

Speeding in fact is breaking the law in most jurisdictions even if you have a true emergency (unless you are a member of law enforcement, the fire department, or are a paramedic, in an appropriate vehicle). Most traffic laws are malum prohibitum, meaning if you objectively violate the statute, you have broken the law, defenses and excuses notwithstanding. You might get out of paying anything by an understanding officer, or a nice judge in traffic court, but technically still have broken the law.

As for the inference that it's somehow okay to cheat on an assignment because everyone else is, which you seem to be claiming is analagous to not creating a traffic hazzard, I don't agree. If you are the only one ethical in your class, then everyone else should crash and burn in your wake. Follow the rules, because you are academically obligated to. Turn people in who do not (effectively running them off the road, by your analogy), because you are honor code bound to do that too.

FWIW, I have been at schools where people were called out on honor code violations for turning in nearly identical assignment work product. So yes, some profs do take this seriously. (No idea what happened to them, but they were no longer in the class).

 

[jochi1543]

FWIW, I have been at schools where people were called out on honor code violations for turning in nearly identical assignment work product. So yes, some profs do take this seriously. (No idea what happened to them, but they were no longer in the class).

A person from my (very small) Economics class was expelled after her sophomore year for plagiarizing a final paper...it was so ironic, because the first lecture the prof spent the ENTIRE 1.5 hours ranting about how much he hates cheaters and how he WILL push for expulsion with the Dean if he finds anyone cheating....talk about a stupid thing to do!

 

[OncoCaP]

Speeding in fact is breaking the law in most jurisdictions even if you have a true emergency (unless you are a member of law enforcement, the fire department, or are a paramedic, in an appropriate vehicle). Most traffic laws are malum prohibitum, meaning if you objectively violate the statute, you have broken the law, defenses and excuses notwithstanding. You might get out of paying anything by an understanding officer, or a nice judge in traffic court, but technically still have broken the law.

As for the inference that it's somehow okay to cheat on an assignment because everyone else is, which you seem to be claiming is analagous to not creating a traffic hazzard, I don't agree. If you are the only one ethical in your class, then everyone else should crash and burn in your wake. Follow the rules, because you are academically obligated to. Turn people in who do not (effectively running them off the road, by your analogy), because you are honor code bound to do that too.

FWIW, I have been at schools where people were called out on honor code violations for turning in nearly identical assignment work product. So yes, some profs do take this seriously. (No idea what happened to them, but they were no longer in the class).

I agree; it is a poor analogy but it does illustrate that following the law or rule is not always the proper thing to do (by what an overwhelming majority of people would think). Maybe it is weakness of character that I would give a friend a hint on how to solve a homework or perhaps explain the general concept related to the problem when asked when this is clearly against the policy. The legal solution conflicts with my values of helping other people learn. In my opinion, there is a way of giving assistance with homework where everyone does learn something. Maybe I'm wrong about this. When I provided assistance, I would usually do it in a way where the person learned something (although I don't claim to be perfect in this regard). If a person was stuck and using an incorrect principle, I might say that "that's not the approach I would have used" or "the professor talked about a similar problem on Wednesday." I try to give advice similar to what a TA or prof might even though I'm not their TA or prof.

I have spent enough time in the real world (outside the classroom) and have battle scars for arguing with client executives and managers who were insisting that my company do something illegal to keep things moving forward. I have caused many employees to roll their eyes when I insisted that we follow tax laws when our competitors and customers did not and it created a major obstacle and reduced our profitability. So, I usually give high regard for following the rules. However, I have values that can "trump" what the law or rule says. I will trespass on personal property to help a person having a heart attack. I look at my own values and see how a situation fits in and I don't just mindlessly do whatever the law or rule is. Even helping someone learn a concept better when it is against the letter of a policy but not against what everyone else is doing is within the norm for me.

That said, there have been times in my life where I was not ethical or did something clearly wrong (lied, copied an assignment I had forgotten about, etc.), and I'm not proud of those things (I would not like to repeat them and hope I would do something different now).

What I have observed in the real world is that the overwhelming majority of people (85%+) will commit "minor" infractions (such as saying something that is clearly misleading) if there is any perceived or real gain such as making a few extra dollars or possibly increasing one's reputation. Do we really think that advertisements say things that are true? It's pretty much expected that advertisements will be misleading. Hopefully medical school admissions interviews aren't that way, but I could see people really making an effort to present a more polished image of themselves than their "true" self. Same goes for doing well in classes or making friends in class.

A question such as the one in this poll begs the extreme: "Would you ever cheat on an examination or assignment?" How about if you were offered <insert what you want or an extreme situation here> (a million bucks, good time with a beautiful/handsome person of the appropriate sex, a prestigious career, needed a certain score to pass, etc.> to "fudge a little" on an assignment in a way that would most likely not be detected or help out a classmate? There may be more than a few people who would be willing to "gamble" and change their ethics ... at least this is what I have observed people do when something valuable is on the line or perceived to be on the line.

 

[Karina 07]

I agree; it is a poor analogy but it does illustrate that following the law or rule is not always the proper thing to do (by what an overwhelming majority of people would think). Maybe it is weakness of character that I would give a friend a hint on how to solve a homework or perhaps explain the general concept related to the problem when asked when this is clearly against the policy. The legal solution conflicts with my values of helping other people learn. In my opinion, there is a way of giving assistance with homework where everyone does learn something. Maybe I'm wrong about this. When I provided assistance, I would usually do it in a way where the person learned something (although I don't claim to be perfect in this regard). If a person was stuck and using an incorrect principle, I might say that "that's not the approach I would have used" or "the professor talked about a similar problem on Wednesday." I try to give advice similar to what a TA or prof might even though I'm not their TA or prof.

I have spent enough time in the real world (outside the classroom) and have battle scars for arguing with client executives and managers who were insisting that my company do something illegal to keep things moving forward. I have caused many employees to roll their eyes when I insisted that we follow tax laws when our competitors and customers did not and it created a major obstacle and reduced our profitability. So, I usually give high regard for following the rules. However, I have values that can "trump" what the law or rule says. I will trespass on personal property to help a person having a heart attack. I look at my own values and see how a situation fits in and I don't just mindlessly do whatever the law or rule is. Even helping someone learn a concept better when it is against the letter of a policy but not against what everyone else is doing is within the norm for me.

That said, there have been times in my life where I was not ethical or did something clearly wrong (lied, copied an assignment I had forgotten about, etc.), and I'm not proud of those things (I would not like to repeat them and hope I would do something different now).

What I have observed in the real world is that the overwhelming majority of people (85%+) will commit "minor" infractions (such as saying something that is clearly misleading) if there is any perceived or real gain such as making a few extra dollars or possibly increasing one's reputation. Do we really think that advertisements say things that are true? It's pretty much expected that advertisements will be misleading. Hopefully medical school admissions interviews aren't that way, but I could see people really making an effort to present a more polished image of themselves than their "true" self. Same goes for doing well in classes or making friends in class.

A question such as the one in this poll begs the extreme: "Would you ever cheat on an examination or assignment?" How about if you were offered <insert what you want or an extreme situation here> (a million bucks, good time with a beautiful/handsome person of the appropriate sex, a prestigious career, needed a certain score to pass, etc.> to "fudge a little" on an assignment in a way that would most likely not be detected or help out a classmate? There may be more than a few people who would be willing to "gamble" and change their ethics ... at least this is what I have observed people do when something valuable is on the line or perceived to be on the line.

Maybe we need a poll with "would you cheat in situation A? Situation B? Situation C?" Options: all of the above; A, B, not C; etc., down to none of the above.

 

[OncoCaP]

Maybe we need a poll with "would you cheat in situation A? Situation B? Situation C?" Options: all of the above; A, B, not C; etc., down to none of the above.

Yes, that would be a much better poll. Ethics are situational. A person who is being severely tempted is more likely to cheat. For example, consider a (straight) guy without a female friend being asked for help by a stunningly beautiful girl who needs help getting an assignment done. Maybe a dirt-poor student juggling balances from one credit card to the next being offered $1000 cash or maybe a brand-new laptop that s/he desperately needs in exchange for a list of test questions by a classmate who will be taking a makeup exam with the same questions (assuming no curve).

These are extreme examples of nuances that occur in actual cheating situations (such as a person who isn't quite med school material but thinks s/he can make it with a little cheating). Some people will even cheat just to please their parents with good grades that they couldn't get otherwise. There is a saying that everyone has a price ... I wish it wasn't true, but too often I see people taking a job they hate (and might require them to be dishonest, like some sales or executive jobs) for the money or getting desperate when it looks like they are going to fail a course.

Some people cheat if everyone else is cheating just because they don't want to be at a disadvantage (would you cheat if everyone in your class was cheating and you would get a C or D instead of an A if you did not cheat -- and you had already told the instructor about the issue and that person did not believe you or didn't seem to care).

I took a lab where everyone I knew of was copying the lab reports from last year (changing a few numbers) and getting excellent grades for little effort ... I was slaving away doing original work (a strategy worked very well for me in getting great grades in other courses) and getting by ... I took a hit on the grade in that class (not to mention the time lost). This is a different lab than the one where one of my honors classmates completed all the lab reports before the semester started. In another class, your grade was dependent on how far you made it in perfectly (100%) passing a long series of tests. Several students (at least half of my class) got copies of all the tests & keys and did extremely well for obvious reasons. These are all people who went on to become professionals and many were top students who really didn't need to cheat to pass or anything like that. No one was ever caught or disciplined. When I told the instructor about it, he said there was really nothing he could do and that I should just be happy with my "B" ... focus on my own work instead of getting distracted by other people.

I was very bitter at the time when things like this happened (some of that is no doubt still there), but I eventually realized that you choose the path you want for life and don't complain about people on a different path (without scrupples, say), even if they do better than you do. I learned to appreciate the journey, not just the outcome. I'm not bitter anymore when this kind of thing happens. Make up your mind and live your values.

 

[Law2Doc]

However, I have values that can "trump" what the law or rule says.

We have prisons full of people who similarly felt that they can pick and choose which laws are reasonable. If you choose to live within a society with rules of law, your render your values subject to those laws. Which is why folks who evade taxes, use illegal drugs, drink in public, drive with slighltly above the legal limit of alcohol, etc go to jail, despite perhaps feeling that the law is silly, and why someone driving 5 MPH over the speed limit is going to get a ticket even if the road is empty, or everyone else is speeding too. Folks in the 60s violated laws in protest on principle, (and not covertly, like a cheater does) but willingly accepted the punishment (often jailtime). If you don't like living under laws, you really need to find an island someplace.

If you are violating a school's honor code you are breaking the rule and should be punished, even if you are violating it in a way you feel is more productive, learning-wise, than the professors original assignment. The way to address that is to go talk to the professor, not help people cheat on the assignment behind his back. You don't get to make the rules, you get to live under them, or find a system (school) with fewer rules.

Ethics may be situational, but rules are not. And if you choose ethics over rules, you choose to accept the punishment too.

 

[GoLAClippers]

Which schools assign homeworks/problems anyway? Most top schools only grade on your midterms and finals. Usually, only lower-tier schools or community colleges or post-bac ones count homeworks.

 

[Law2Doc]

Usually, only lower-tier schools or community colleges or post-bac ones count homeworks.

Not accurate. A wide variety of places assign problem sets.

 

[OncoCaP]

Which schools assign homeworks/problems anyway? Most top schools only grade on your midterms and finals. Usually, only lower-tier schools or community colleges or post-bac ones count homeworks.

I was in a Top 5 program for my major, and homework was typically worth 10-20% (sometimes a gimme perhaps). I even had one course with time limited (only work x hours on this) take-home exams and homework that were worth most of the course grade. It depends on your major, I think. Most schools have graded labs where students could copy last year's labs (they don't change much year-to-year).

 

[GoLAClippers]

Not accurate.

Okay, sorry. I meant most science classes in top schools. Yes, if one is copying data or other person's lab works in his/her lab class - lab reports actually count a lot for grades - then he/sheare cheating and shouldn't do it. But many times, most top schools' science courses seems to only count midterms and finals.

 

[Law2Doc]

Okay, sorry. I meant most science classes in top schools. Yes, if one is copying data or other person's lab works in his/her lab class - lab reports actually count a lot for grades - then he/sheare cheating and shouldn't do it. But many times, most top schools' science courses seems to only count midterms and finals.

I'm pretty sure "most top schools" is still not accurate. I'm aware of people having to turn in problem sets in science classes at some top schools.

 

[OncoCaP]

We have prisons full of people who similarly felt that they can pick and choose which laws are reasonable. If you choose to live within a society with rules of law, your render your values subject to those laws. Which is why folks who evade taxes, use illegal drugs, drink in public, drive with slighltly above the legal limit of alcohol, etc go to jail, despite perhaps feeling that the law is silly, and why someone driving 5 MPH over the speed limit is going to get a ticket even if the road is empty, or everyone else is speeding too. Folks in the 60s violated laws in protest on principle, (and not covertly, like a cheater does) but willingly accepted the punishment (often jailtime). If you don't like living under laws, you really need to find an island someplace.

If you are violating a school's honor code you are breaking the rule and should be punished, even if you are violating it in a way you feel is more productive, learning-wise, than the professors original assignment. The way to address that is to go talk to the professor, not help people cheat on the assignment behind his back. You don't get to make the rules, you get to live under them, or find a system (school) with fewer rules.

Ethics may be situational, but rules are not. And if you choose ethics over rules, you choose to accept the punishment too.

Yes, you are right. You are holding me to a higher standard, and I appreciate that! It's important to respect laws and honor codes. It can be extremely difficult and I would say quite often the person who chooses to follow the rules when most others don't pays a significant price as well. Sometimes people lose their jobs, get passed over on opportunities, etc. when they do the right thing. It's not like all the punishment is on the "rulebreaker's" side. However, an ethical student or physician has a tremendous respect for rules and laws and makes it top priority to follow them. At the same time, rules and laws shouldn't be an excuse to be unsympathetic or uncaring.

To bring this closer to healthcare (and perhaps justify all this verbage and analysis), maybe if you code a certain diagnosis one way it would probably pass muster and any typical scrutiny and will be covered by insurance or Medicare/Medicaid but still not be an accurate coding of the patient's diagnosis/situation. Let's say, if you code the condition in the most accurate way, the person will not be reimbursed for care. You would have a very unhappy patient (and perhaps a patient who did not get the care that they needed and suffer) because of the physicians ethical standards and the rules of the health insurance system. (I'm sure there are real-life / better cases than this, but this one is something I can provide for now) The patient may not wish to wait for healthcare reforms to get treatment. It's stuff like this that makes ethics and following the rules difficult. There is a need to manage multiple priorities here. Following the rules and laws is a top priority, but there are other critical priorities as well. Sometimes there is no "easy" or "painless" answer. Cheating in school isn't as dramatic as deciding a patient's fate, but some principles like whether a particular rule is not really being enforced (let's say almost all physicians try to code a condition so that it is covered, like they do with respect to ultrasounds on healthy pregnant women) carry over.

 

[Law2Doc]

At the same time, rules and laws shouldn't be an excuse to be unsympathetic or uncaring. There is a need to manage multiple priorities here.

You can be as sympathetic and caring as you want, short of helping someone cheat. Help them study before a test or assignment. Don't help them on a test or assignment.

 

[OncoCaP]

You can be as sympathetic and caring as you want, short of helping someone cheat. Help them study before a test or assignment. Don't help them on a test or assignment.

This is a lot easier to do now that I'm older, married, and more stubborn about doing the right thing than when I was 19 and worried about making friends (particularly girlfriends!). Here's an idealistic thought: hopefully most people find that as you go through life you learn to live more closely to what you believe in and have fewer contradictions between your actions and values.

 

[Law2Doc]

This is a lot easier to do now that I'm older, married, and grumpier than when I was 19 and worried about making friends (particularly girlfriends!).

The gals who are using you to do their homework will always end up with someone else anyhow.