Academic Salary

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I am in my 2nd year of residency now at a 4 year program. I am interested in academic emergency medicine, however, I must say that I am concerned about the salary that one can achieve working in the field. Now, before I hear about how shallow this makes me, please keep in mind that I have 240k of student loan debt. In a perfect world salary would not matter to me and I wouldn’t be thinking about this---but I must say having such a debt burden makes me nervous.

Are academic salaries truly so low? What do most make in academics? Is there regional variation?

Any help would be appreciated as I would ideally like to go into academics without fear of paying back my loans while still being able to put some kids (when I have them in the future) through college.
 
questionguy said:
I am in my 2nd year of residency now at a 4 year program. I am interested in academic emergency medicine, however, I must say that I am concerned about the salary that one can achieve working in the field. Now, before I hear about how shallow this makes me, please keep in mind that I have 240k of student loan debt. In a perfect world salary would not matter to me and I wouldn’t be thinking about this---but I must say having such a debt burden makes me nervous.

Are academic salaries truly so low? What do most make in academics? Is there regional variation?

Any help would be appreciated as I would ideally like to go into academics without fear of paying back my loans while still being able to put some kids (when I have them in the future) through college.
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Now am I crazy but since you are in residency couldnt you politely figure out a way to ask? I am sure some of the seniors know. It is strange that talk of salary is considered taboo. Anyways here in AZ the guys do well. Additionally there are ways to supplement your income a bit if you want as well.

FWIW my limited research tells me it is a little regional but you usually make 10-20% lower than non academic jobs. My guess is southerndoc and niner have solid info on this stuff as well as Quinn, bartlby, docB and others (I know I misspelled that). I think what makes it hard to give a good answer is that community jobs and their salarys vary so much.
 
I am in NYC and most of the residents/attendings only know NYC and the surrounding area (attendings at my institution start off at 140k)---I do not plan on staying in NY for practice and I have not gotten good answers as to what else is out there.

Quinn and Southern---thnx for the replies.
 
Can't speak as to the real world, but according to the AAMC Careers in Medicine site, the community EP's salary is 190K-250K (25th-75th percentile) with a starter of about 187K, while academic EPs make 169K-200K early (180K median) and 182K-234K (201K median) late in their careers. This seems in line with what the others are saying is "on the street".

Here's the technical info for the data:

The Physician Compensation Page presents compensation data for available specialties of physicians in academic medicine or in clinical practice. Data presented for academic medicine was compiled from the AAMCs Faculty Salary Survey. Early Career represents salary ranges for assistant professors, while Mid to Late Career represents combined salary ranges for associate and full professors in the respective clinical departments. Use this information as a general guideline as you compare the relative salaries of various specialties.

Compensation for physicians in clinical practice was obtained from the Medical Group Management Association (MGMA), and represents direct compensation paid to practicing physicians in MGMA member practices, as indicated on W2, 1099, or K1 forms plus all voluntary salary reductions, such as salary, bonus and/or incentive payments, research stipends, honoraria and distribution of profits.

questionguy said:
I am in NYC and most of the residents/attendings only know NYC and the surrounding area (attendings at my institution start off at 140k)---I do not plan on staying in NY for practice and I have not gotten good answers as to what else is out there.

Quinn and Southern---thnx for the replies.
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Apollyon said:
Try a 40% hit, plus even more off if you're in NYC, LA, or SF.
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All I know is the attendings I have spoken to in Chicago, Orlando and Arizona have told me 10-20%.. 200K per yr aint too bad in my book..
 
Region makes a lot more difference than academic vs. non-academic. And remember that benefits can equal a lot of value in a compensation package. That's tough to consider for someone looking at their debt but over a career it's very true.

Here's what I would say about the academic vs. non academic money career choice. Forget the money on this decision and do which ever one will make you happier long term. If you want to do academics do it. The money issue will be a really minor issue over the course of a career.
 
Apollyon said:
Try a 40% hit, plus even more off if you're in NYC, LA, or SF.
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So if you make 200K in LA the guys at the academic places are making 120k? Is this including or not including some other work they can do?
 
docB said:
Here's what I would say about the academic vs. non academic money career choice. Forget the money on this decision and do which ever one will make you happier long term. If you want to do academics do it. The money issue will be a really minor issue over the course of a career.
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I totally agree with this. Yeah, I'm making the least of all the other people in my class who graduated with me. And I live in a place that is notorious for cost of living (i.e. I ain't livin' large, but definately far above the median here). But I absolutely love what I am doing. I get to see tons of med students, I interact with lots of rotating interns (podiatry, surgery, medicine, prelims, ENT, military residents) and residents (usually medicine and surgery residents, along with upper level military), as well as our own EM residents. My practice environment is great (level 1, lots of consultants, and very easy to admit). Busy busy busy and definately inner city. But I love my job. Haven't had one thing to complain about yet (except for my stressful first day). So, even though one of my colleagues is probably making 270k a year his first year out, I couldn't be happier!!!!

Q
 
Money might get you into a job, but it isn't going to keep you there if you're unhappy.

As an academic attending, the salary data here (starting in the 180's, winding up in the low 200's) is right on. Where I work, if you get "promoted" to associate professor, you wind up in the 220's.

Do I make less money than my private practice co-residents? Yes. Do I work fewer hours clinically (2-5 shifts/month fewer and shorter shifts at 8-9hrs)? Absolutely. There are other bennies like no personal liability for malpractice as a state employee (doesn't get much better than that) and a sweet, sweet retirement plan which kicks me another 8% above my salary into a 401k.
 
bartleby said:
Do I make less money than my private practice co-residents? Yes. Do I work fewer hours clinically (2-5 shifts/month fewer and shorter shifts at 8-9hrs)? Absolutely.
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Although academicians work less clinically (16-24 hrs/week), I would argue that they work more hours than community docs because of time spent on research, meetings, teaching, etc. However, most academicians chose academics because they wanted to do research.

You know what they say about somebody who loves their work: They never work a day in their life.

If you truly enjoy it, the money is not an issue.
 
If anyone feels bad about their "academic money" talk to some of your classmates who receive their paychecks from Uncle Sam. I'm getting compensated 55-60% of what academic EPs make. The no debt thing isn't bad, but still....my med school wasn't that expensive.
 
Sorry for my ignorance but when we say "academicians" are we including clinical faculty that work only shifts (no research) in academic programs?
 
trkd said:
Sorry for my ignorance but when we say "academicians" are we including clinical faculty that work only shifts (no research) in academic programs?
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Yes. Those with reduced clinical duties to do research often make less.
 
Desperado said:
If anyone feels bad about their "academic money" talk to some of your classmates who receive their paychecks from Uncle Sam. I'm getting compensated 55-60% of what academic EPs make. The no debt thing isn't bad, but still....my med school wasn't that expensive.
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The Air Force recruiting guy brought lunch last week trying to get us to sign on.

I calculated it in med school, and the armed forces really only benefit MDs financially if they're in family practice or basic Internal Medicine. Most other specialties take a hefty pay cut.
 
In the philly/nyc area, I found academic jobs were $60k (at least) less for brand new attendings. Community places were significantly higher, 220+ but did involve higher hours. The academic jobs do usually have great benefits thru the university so keep that in mind. Its hard to compare jobs since the benefit packages are so different. A retirement package matching 2-1 and 3-1 could add 10-15k to your salary (although not spendable immediately and need to wait til vested before you can leave).

There are also jobs available with combos (academic and community) where you work at a univ hospital and work a certain percentage at a community hospital (where their residents rotate) and usually get paid a little more.

I also have $200+ in loans, your payments will not be that bad, especially if you consolidated at the lower interest rate. It probably wouldnt benefit you to pay off your loans off early (with a 2-3% interest rate). You cant get a mortgage or any other kind of loan at that rate. Pay off the higher interest stuff and invest that money you were going to use towards extra payments (even if you earn 5% in a CD or money market account you are benefiting).

You will be very comfortable at an academic salary, and if you are going to be happier in an academic job, its definitely worth it. I interviewed at a mixture of places and realized early I would probably hurt myself if I worked at some of these community places. Like the patient with the "I am here to get this test and here is my doctors number. He should be contacted immediately that I am here." I'd personally rather deal with the drunk or guy high on PCP then deal with that 😉 But thats me!
 
EctopicFetus said:
So if you make 200K in LA the guys at the academic places are making 120k? Is this including or not including some other work they can do?
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The general guideline I use in my head is ~$150K academic/~$250K community (hence the 40%), then off that for NYC/LA/SF.

I haven't researched this deeply, though - of course, people there are more accurate.
 
Apollyon said:
The general guideline I use in my head is ~$150K academic/~$250K community (hence the 40%), then off that for NYC/LA/SF.

I haven't researched this deeply, though - of course, people there are more accurate.
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Does this include paid malpractice and all benefits + time off?
 
Apollyon said:
The general guideline I use in my head is ~$150K academic/~$250K community (hence the 40%), then off that for NYC/LA/SF.

I haven't researched this deeply, though - of course, people there are more accurate.
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Is that starting or after you've been out a few years?

Does anyone know the difference in pay between an Assistant and Associate professor on average in EM?
 
Hawk22 said:
Is that starting or after you've been out a few years?

Does anyone know the difference in pay between an Assistant and Associate professor on average in EM?
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please see my neglected post, #8, where I say (i a more roundabout way):

assistant prof - 169K-200K early (180K median)
associate-full prof - 182K-234K (201K median)

AAMC-provided national data
 
Yep - those figures are pretty close. As was mentioned earlier though, academic institutions are known for their excellent benefits above base pay. It is not uncommon to see 401(k) matching of twice your contribution (about 30k per year for retirement) and, for those with kids old enough, tuition reimbursement (meaning college for the kids is cheap).

A good thing to remember is that your clinical hours make the bulf of your salary and with research, teaching, publications, meetings, etc, that time becomes very limited.

Having just signed a contract and comparing several different jobs and pay structures, don't ever just look at the base salary - trust me. Most of the "riches" of a job are in your satisfaction, future potential, and benefits...
 
I signed with a 24 member group, 12 member partnership (I will be the 12th) in Naples, Florida. 14-16 10 hour day shifts, no nights, and a very tight package. I think I can see the beach already...
 
Ditto all the above. Salary is less in academics but find me a truly 'poor' doctor and I'll find y ou someone with a gambling addiction or a coke/alcohol problem.

Remember, your loans are non-inheritable. This means if something happens to you (ie death or disability) your loans go away. With consolidation rates as low as they are now, there is no reason to be in a big hurry to pay them off. Think of it as an investment.

Your long term happiness is much more important. So, if you want to go academics, then do it. You couldn't pay me enough to go private.
 
I agree with Roja.

You should always work in a practice that suits your personality and interest...whether that's academic or community. You're going to make enough money. I, personally, don't like (and perhaps, teetering on the edge of hate) having the responsibility of teaching students/residents. That was my primary reason for going into community practice.
 
NinerNiner999 said:
I signed with a 24 member group, 12 member partnership (I will be the 12th) in Naples, Florida. 14-16 10 hour day shifts, no nights, and a very tight package. I think I can see the beach already...
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i always knew you were a stud niner... 😎
 
docB said:
I do very few nights. 1-2 a month. My group pays a pretty good night differential so we have enough guys who want the nights.
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I'm actually a night person anyhow. I will volunteer to work a lot of nights... at least until I turn 50 or have kids, whichever comes first.
 
southerndoc said:
I'm actually a night person anyhow. I will volunteer to work a lot of nights... at least until I turn 50 or have kids, whichever comes first.
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If you work nights, you can probably make $20-50 per hour more than those who do not - shop around and sell this...
 
I have heard of places offering partnership a yr early plus shift differential if you work all nights for 2 yrs.
 
Roja,

At our exit interview, I actually remember being told that they would not go away with death... sorry to be a downer.
 
Actually they do. I have done extensive research into and have spoken with a number of people who specialize in this. They go away with death and permenant disability. If either are reversed, your loans become active again.
 
roja said:
Actually they do. I have done extensive research into and have spoken with a number of people who specialize in this. They go away with death and permenant disability. If either are reversed, your loans become active again.
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Whoa. If you reverse death, you still have to pay your loans?

hah hah sorry couldn't resist
 
As I understand it, my Stafford loans disappear upon permanent death or disability. However, due to the outrageous cost of attendance I am forced to take out private loans. Those are forgiven upon permanent death or disability IF I haven't yet entered repayment. Once I enter repayment they are passed on to my estate.

Got my life insurance physical tomorrow...
 
southerndoc said:
I'm actually a night person anyhow. I will volunteer to work a lot of nights... at least until I turn 50 or have kids, whichever comes first.
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I actually like nights as well... and I'll tell you as an attending, its a bit easier. Less administration running around, a lot more drunks and drug users (which I always find amusing), and the night nurses tend to be a bit more laid back. I am myself debating whether or not to work all nights... I might give it a shot for one month....

Q
 
Nights are a different world.. i think i would need some incentives to do that though..
 
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