Academic Standards: GPA/PCAT

[PharMed2016]

Hey everyone, this has been in the back of my mind but a recent article on Yahoo News sparked my own thoughts in this direction. Does anyone think that grades are being inflated at some schools? How about grade deflation? Ever feel some courses are easier than other comparable ones @ diff colleges? What about the PCAT, do you think it should be revamped?

Just want to here peoples views.

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[PreciousThings9]

Yes, I do think that's very true. I completed an Associates Degree at a community college and have since been taking courses at several different universities to purue my Bachelors. I work full time, so my classes have to be in the evening or on the weekends. Even at the same institution - the coursework required for the same class can be at a totally different level depending on the teacher. I heard a few years ago schools were going to consider putting a rank next to each grade to show a more accurate picture of where you ended up in the class (i.e. if you got a B but you ranked 3rd in the class or something it would look better then just a plain old B). I don't know if that would work - it still presents the problem of you being judged against the specific class you were in. Community college classes also gets a bad wrap sometimes - I have had teachers that were WAY more difficult and demanding in comparison to some of the professors I have had at private universities. So... again, it's all about the teacher.

 

[farmD4me]

Hey I definitely think some schools over inflate grades..namely community colleges. I have been a student in the UC system for the past 5 years and have concurrently enrolled in community college courses as well. I can say without a doubt that it is unfortunate that there isn't a set standard that all students need to finish prereqs at a 4 YEAR UNIVERSITY! Had I gone the community college route 5 years earlier I bet I would have a 4.0 gpa!

What I think needs to happen soon is the requirement of a bachelor's degree in SCIENCE, not business administration, etc! This way we will be on a much more equal playing field and they can really weed out the ones that can learn at the University level and the ones that simply can't!


Just my two cents 🙂

 

[Electrode]

I absolutely agree that some colleges inflate the difficulty level of certain courses, thereby inflating the grade level when compared to others who somewhat seem to deflate it.

One of the factors that can lead to this is the region or location of the school. To avoid possible controversy that may spark from elaborating the "location" factor, I'll refrain from explaining it any further. But most of you might get the picture already. If you don't, just drink a cup of water and go to sleep😉

On the average, and based on personal experiences, universities tend to have higher or more difficulty level of certain courses as opposed to that of the community colleges...at least, here in Chicago. But like "farmD" said above, it largely depends on the teacher(s) in charge.

 

[Wantissobad]

not only is it different levels of difficulty with different schools my a&p I teacher was so hard i was studying many hours every day just to pass, but my a&p II teacher was so easy i came to 1/4 of the class and did alright!

 

[Sparda29]

There is definitely a problem with the variance in grades. The professor you have can easily make a difference in the grade you get.

For example, in Organic I, I finished with 829/1000 and the professor gave me an A. (Class average was 450/1000)

In Organic II, I finished with a 849/1000 and the professor gave me a B. (Class Average was 600/1000)

PCAT - I think its fine except they should do away with these reading comprehension and verbal ability shenanigans.

 

[PrePharmD]

Disagree with the community college statements above. I scored an 88 on the PCAT for biology, 73 in Chem, 71 overall composite...without studying or even taking a practice exam beforehand and I took all my prereqs at a community college and don't have a bachelor's. This wasn't my dream score and I retook the PCAT a few days ago but my point is that I did decently well based only on what I retained from class. It honestly depends on the teacher no matter where you go. Almost all of my professors at the community college have taught at major universities and wanted to focus more on the teaching aspect rather than on research and publications.

 

[Jdario86]

I think there's a big difference between taking an organic chemistry class at a school like Harvard oppose to taking it at a CC.

I also think that some people decide to take/retake classes at a CC because they think it's easier and it will inflate their GPAs.

As for the PCATs, I think they need to make it harder. And I also think they can do away with the verbal and reading comprehension or at least combine them into 1 section.

 

[azrk]

There is definitely a problem with the variance in grades. The professor you have can easily make a difference in the grade you get.

For example, in Organic I, I finished with 829/1000 and the professor gave me an A. (Class average was 450/1000)

In Organic II, I finished with a 849/1000 and the professor gave me a B. (Class Average was 600/1000)

PCAT - I think its fine except they should do away with these reading comprehension and verbal ability shenanigans.

The reading comprehension and verbal ability are probably going to save my score so I say no to that 😳

As far as grade inflation...for the most part people know that University courses are on another level compared to Community College courses and I'm sure employers, adcoms and etc take that into account. That is why graduates from top universities are often scouted for jobs while the rest of us have to beg and plead for them. 🙁

 

[JumboPharm09]

The variance in the GPA is why the PCAT is so important. Pre-pharm grades are highly variable between and even within colleges. Some schools grade all classes on a strict bell curve which means half of the class will be below the B-/C+ line. Some schools give a larger percentage of the students B- and better grades. The PCAT standardizes applicants knowledge on one test that everyone takes. A 96 composite is the same for a student from Cornell is the same as a 96 from a studen from Bunker Hill Community College. However, a 3.5 GPA at Cornell is definitely not the same as a 3.5 at the community college. The PCAT can allow admissions committees to compare all students on a task that is the same for everyone.

 

[calisoca]

Ever feel some courses are easier than other comparable ones @ diff colleges?
Just want to here peoples views.

Uh, yes. How about any CC as compared to a UC? This argument stretches far and wide but unless you've done coursework at a UC, you're ignorant to this topic.

People always defend the CC's saying "I learned soooo much in that course so my 'A' was justified, I had WAY more 1 on 1 than you, so get off my back you jerk UC graduates." Well guess what... For starters, the students in the UC system worked harder than you did in highschool to be accepted to a UC (with the exception of the people who just flat out couldn't afford the cost of a UC). But (yes, contrary to what your teachers with a big bad teaching credential told you at your CC, you CAN start a sentence with but--there's no "rule") at the core of it all, students at the UC learned just as much as you did, if not more, but ended up with a B- because the scenario was three times as competitive. While it IS about what you learn, the CC can take a pass in the GPA department because their class sizes run around 20 students instead of 300-500 that is commonly seen at the UC science level. Thankfully pharmacy schools realize the grossly easier grading system at community colleges and reward those who've done their time in the UC battle fields.

Not saying anybody who went to a CC is a ******, in fact any one of them could be smarter than a UC student, but the clout they have in pharmacy school admissions falls drastically short of those who succeeded at a UC...and that my friends, is not an arguable manner.

 

[ffpickle]

Grade Inflation: "Top" few universities & CC's
Grade Deflation: Most Canadian universities

 

[chrisraymundo]

yes i definitely feel that at least verbal be taken out of the PCAT/tweaked and more emphasis be placed on the chem or bio sections -___-. But i guess some schools do look at the math/science scores more so than verbal/reading.

 

[calisoca]

yes i definitely feel that at least verbal be taken out of the PCAT/tweaked and more emphasis be placed on the chem or bio sections -___-. But i guess some schools do look at the math/science scores more so than verbal/reading.

At least get rid of the analogies section--what a stupid ass concept to test future pharmacists on. When the SAT gives it the finger, so should the PCAT.

 

[drugdoc]

AdComs have access to a thick book that ranks all colleges and universities based on various criteria. So, when the quality of the school is in question, they have easy access to find out what the entrance averages and other stats of a particular school's students are. I assume most, if not all, AdComs take this into consideration.

 

[Phoenix585]

AdComs have access to a thick book that ranks all colleges and universities based on various criteria. So, when the quality of the school is in question, they have easy access to find out what the entrance averages and other stats of a particular school's students are. I assume most, if not all, AdComs take this into consideration.

Do you happen to know if this book is available for our eye's? Also is their a ranking system online that you know of that is credible?

 

[evilolive]

Grade Inflation: "Top" few universities & CC's
Grade Deflation: Most Canadian universities

I have quite a few of my family/friends connected to Stanford, and you'd be surprised - in specific departments it's not as grade inflated as you'd think 🙂

 

[PrePharmD]

I think it depends on the CC and individual professor. One of my chemistry professors has taught for nine years at a CC and had a reputation for being tough. When I asked her what percentage of A's she usually gives, she said, "You know, it depends. I have had semesters where I've given out 0 A's and I had one semester where I gave 3 A's." I was freaking out at this point. For all chemistry courses taken at this particular CC, our final was the ACS standardized exam. The results of this exam do not lie and our school's (a community college) average score was always somewhere in the 85th percentile. Only two people in a class of 100 received A's in a general biology course I took at this CC. On the other hand, I've heard of CC professors who will give out "extra credit" to students until 90% of the class has A's (this also happened to me in a class I took at the university). Like I said, the difference in teaching styles between a university and a CC stem from the fact that CC professors have made a decision that they would like to focus more on teaching than publishing. Adcoms know more about this topic than we do and if CC's were SOOOO bad, pharmacy/med schools wouldn't accept courses taken there. I just hate the argument, "I have a 2.5 GPA but I'm really smarter than you are with your 4.0 GPA from a CC." Truth is, no, you're not because while the 4.0 from a CC is in pharmacy school, the 2.5's from UC won't be.

Yes, the VA should be cut from the PCAT. This portion of the exam favors those who are of higher socioeconomic status whose parents used these words in the household. This doesn't make them smarter than someone who is an ESL student. My father was a Vietnamese immigrant and BASIC english is what was spoken. Anything fancy required a long drawn out conversation and explanation of what I was talking about. Since people like my father represent a large portion of the people we will serve in the community, communication skills rather than speaking over someone's head with large words should be more important. Too bad there isn't an oral part of the exam in which we have to decipher what someone with an accent is saying. I would have a 99 for sure!

 

[aterly]

cc cources are diff and as others said before it all depends on the teacher. I had teachers that were a joke, and others that didn't curve or give extra credits and if just 1 student earned a b in class they were ok with that(orgo). As far PCAT goes it is not fare by any means. Taking it 2 times I got the same scaled scores in 2 sections but my precenteges changed from 50 to 70, big difference. So, it is all depends who they compare you to...

 

[OChemTA]

Grade Inflation: "Top" few universities & CC's
Grade Deflation: Most Canadian universities

I'm from Canada and I don't feel as though we do have grade deflation (I'm at a fairly big university). Instead of grade deflation, the standards are raised for admittance into pharmacy (you're not getting into pharm without at 3.6+ GPA vs people getting into pharm with 3.0-3.3 in USA).

I agree that the top universities and CC's have grade inflation though. There's a reason why CC have such low standards in accepting students... all of my less intelligent/hardworking friends ended up in CC. I think CC's bell curve should be set below what is set in university since, because on average, the people enrolled in the course is less motivated, hardworking, etc... than those in university and giving out the same distribution of grades and having the course be equivalent to university is unfair. Of course, this also means that those that are motivated and hard working enrolled in CC do have an easier chance to shine and get to the "A" end of the grade distribution.

Those who says profs give out very little A's in CC may be because the CC is actually doing what I'm saying and shifting the bell curve to the left as to reduce the number of A's.

 

[OTFuturePharmD]

Yes, the VA should be cut from the PCAT. This portion of the exam favors those who are of higher socioeconomic status whose parents used these words in the household. This doesn't make them smarter than someone who is an ESL student. My father was a Vietnamese immigrant and BASIC english is what was spoken. Anything fancy required a long drawn out conversation and explanation of what I was talking about. Since people like my father represent a large portion of the people we will serve in the community, communication skills rather than speaking over someone's head with large words should be more important. Too bad there isn't an oral part of the exam in which we have to decipher what someone with an accent is saying. I would have a 99 for sure!

I would have to respectfully disagree. I come from a disadvantaged socioeconomic background where big words were no where to be heard in the house hold. But when I was in high school and college, big words were expected and whether or not these types of words were used affected ones' grades. I do agree that big words have no place when consulting with patients on their medicaiton.

The PCAT is mostly focused on how fast one can answer questions. How about the exam focus more on a students knowledge....Anologies are pointless. I see why there is VA. They want to make sure that each student is at a high enough grade level in english to be able to handle the level of learning and communication at the professional level.

 

[Sparda29]

I would have to respectfully disagree. I come from a disadvantaged socioeconomic background where big words were no where to be heard in the house hold. But when I was in high school and college, big words were expected and whether or not these types of words were used affected ones' grades. I do agree that big words have no place when consulting with patients on their medicaiton.

The PCAT is mostly focused on how fast one can answer questions. How about the exam focus more on a students knowledge....Anologies are pointless. I see why there is VA. They want to make sure that each student is at a high enough grade level in english to be able to handle the level of learning and communication at the professional level.

Yeah, basically all the professors tell us to use 8th grade language when speaking with patients.

 

[JumboPharm09]

I'm from Canada and I don't feel as though we do have grade deflation (I'm at a fairly big university). Instead of grade deflation, the standards are raised for admittance into pharmacy (you're not getting into pharm without at 3.6+ GPA vs people getting into pharm with 3.0-3.3 in USA).

I agree that the top universities and CC's have grade inflation though. There's a reason why CC have such low standards in accepting students... all of my less intelligent/hardworking friends ended up in CC. I think CC's bell curve should be set below what is set in university since, because on average, the people enrolled in the course is less motivated, hardworking, etc... than those in university and giving out the same distribution of grades and having the course be equivalent to university is unfair. Of course, this also means that those that are motivated and hard working enrolled in CC do have an easier chance to shine and get to the "A" end of the grade distribution.

Those who says profs give out very little A's in CC may be because the CC is actually doing what I'm saying and shifting the bell curve to the left as to reduce the number of A's.

Or what we already do would be fine and the reputation of a school can be considered. Grades are already arbitrary and a poor standard to compare any students on. Changing an arbitrarily decided metric will still mean it's arbitrary.

 

[OChemTA]

Or what we already do would be fine and the reputation of a school can be considered. Grades are already arbitrary and a poor standard to compare any students on. Changing an arbitrarily decided metric will still mean it's arbitrary.

Grades can be and are quantifiable, reputation cannot. Grades are objective while reputation is subjective.

Grades are arbitrary, but so are a lot of things, eg, STP, voltage, vectors etc... The point is intelligence has been shown to follow a bell curve and that grades fall in a bell curve fashion and that (so far) it works. A properly written exam in a large class will not lead to grade inflation. It's the institution's choice to improperly write exams (making them too easy) or change the distribution they fit their grades into.

Don't think that you're special and that statistics and averages don't apply to you because they do. (this is not directed at anyone, but instead everyone)

In conclusion grades > reputation and I hate grade inflation because it's unfair.... although life's not fair...🙁

 

[diastole]

Grade Inflation: "Top" few universities & CC's
Grade Deflation: Most Canadian universities

I don't know about the Canadian part but I read this in the New York Times:

At Harvard, 55 percent of the women graduated with honors this spring, compared with barely half the men.

What? What kind of honor is it if over half of the students get it? They must be passing out As like candy.

 

[Jdario86]

I don't know about the Canadian part but I read this in the New York Times:



What? What kind of honor is it if over half of the students get it? They must be passing out As like candy.

That's Harvard. They recruit students who are usually the cream of the crop with SAT scores ranging from 1400s and higher. I'm not surprised.

Grades can be and are quantifiable, reputation cannot. Grades are objective while reputation is subjective.

In conclusion grades > reputation and I hate grade inflation because it's unfair.... although life's not fair...🙁

I totally agree. This is why i think all schools should mandate the PCATs as an admissions requirement and they should make the PCATs harder.

 

[JumboPharm09]

Grades can be and are quantifiable, reputation cannot. Grades are objective while reputation is subjective.

In conclusion grades > reputation and I hate grade inflation because it's unfair.... although life's not fair...🙁

Grades are objective? Most places grade you compared to the other students in your class. If a school has a higher proportion of extremely intelligent students, some of these students are bound to get lower grades due to the comparison. A grade of B at some schools can easily represent the knowledge of an A+ at other schools. Since grades depend heavily on the makeup of the class, you cannot call it an objective measure of anything other than a person's relative place in his or her class at his or her school.

I feel that factoring a school's reputation can give a person perspective into what the grades are representative of.

 

[evilolive]

What? What kind of honor is it if over half of the students get it? They must be passing out As like candy.

You also must admit though, the people at Harvard are really smart. I've met quite a few in my lifetime, and they haven't disappointed in reputation.

In conclusion grades > reputation and I hate grade inflation because it's unfair.... although life's not fair..

As unfair as it may seem or be in terms of economic opportunities, if it wasn't for the this principle, my grades as is never would have got me into pharmacy school...my undergraduate institution definitely gave me certain opportunities in a quality education that I'd be hard pressed to find elsewhere.

 

[PharMed2016]

Uh, yes. How about any CC as compared to a UC? This argument stretches far and wide but unless you've done coursework at a UC, you're ignorant to this topic.

I've done the majority of my coursework at a UC, with some coursework at a CC like public speaking and english over the summer. I was wondering about everyone else's opinion concerning this topic and tried not to bias the way I've asked the question.

As for the PCATs... English was not my first language at all but I did fine on the PCAT (87), although VA **** me with a (48). I remembered me saying to myself on test day... what the heck is this, although I admit I didn't put more than 5 hours total studying for the exam. I'm not defending my VA score because I should have put more effort into it. As for them taking it out of the PCATs, I disagree because its suppose to show how well rounded you are. Why don't they take it out of tests like the MCATs?

 

[Jdario86]

As unfair as it may seem or be in terms of economic opportunities, if it wasn't for the this principle, my grades as is never would have got me into pharmacy school...my undergraduate institution definitely gave me certain opportunities in a quality education that I'd be hard pressed to find elsewhere.

Yes - i understand that there are some disadvantaged people who come from areas with poor quality education. But is it the responsibility of adcoms & others to cater to these disadvantaged candidates by compromising the integrity of the admissions criteria ? I personally think this is an issue with improving the quality of education in disadvantaged areas- not an issue regarding pharmacy school admissions criteria. I also think adcoms are responsible for selecting the best of the best and not help fix the quality of education. I think adcoms who give handicaps to disadvantaged students perpetuates a negative stigma on students from unfortunate socio-economic backgrounds as academically inferior and the low quality of education in these disadvantaged areas persists. Of course, this is a subjective case-by-case basis but i think adcoms should generally stick to evaluating candidates on multiple factors: GPA, PCATs, life/work experiences,difficulty of undergrad course curriculum, interview.
However, I do think academic integrity is compromised when a student decides to take all their pre-reqs at a CC to get an easier 4.0 GPA and they end up getting into a pharmacy school that don't require the PCATs. Of course, who cares if they've never taken the PCATs or did well on it because they have a perfect GPA and that makes the school looks good.

 

[OChemTA]

Grades are objective? Most places grade you compared to the other students in your class. If a school has a higher proportion of extremely intelligent students, some of these students are bound to get lower grades due to the comparison.

I was talking about standardized tests... but your argument does not make grades subjective. Please look up the definition of objectivity first... your example does not make grades "unobjective".

"A grade of B at some schools can easily represent the knowledge of an A+ at other schools. Since grades depend heavily on the makeup of the class, you cannot call it an objective measure of anything other than a person's relative place in his or her class at his or her school."

That's called grade inflation... and that is a flaw of institution but not of the system of grading or grades. Unfortunately (for your argument) the "makeup" of your class really don't vary from year to year... especially for pre-pharm classes (introductory class). Schools with academic integrity have grades that, as closely as possible, represent the academic ability of the student... even when compared across different institutions (Ever wonder why the vast majority of schools use the same 4.0 grading system?).

I feel that factoring a school's reputation can give a person perspective into what the grades are representative of.

...and that's subjective...

Some may think university X is better than university Y and some may think university Z is better than both. Some may not even have heard of university X, Y or Z...

 

[OChemTA]

You also must admit though, the people at Harvard are really smart. I've met quite a few in my lifetime, and they haven't disappointed in reputation.



As unfair as it may seem or be in terms of economic opportunities, if it wasn't for the this principle, my grades as is never would have got me into pharmacy school...my undergraduate institution definitely gave me certain opportunities in a quality education that I'd be hard pressed to find elsewhere.

No point in telling me that. As rare as being a lottery winner is, there are still lottery winners.

Lots of people get what they do not deserve, but it happens all the time.

And yes, depending on what grades got you into pharmacy, you may not deserve that spot as much as the guy who studies more, puts more effort into school and gets higher grades.

I seemed to have gone off in a tangent here, but yea, I still think standardized testing, like the PCAT, is a good thing.

 

[athena09]

Yeah i agree; standardized testing is a good thing.

I never understand how people with a 3.8-4.0 gpa can get below a 50 on the pcats.

 

[evilolive]

No point in telling me that. As rare as being a lottery winner is, there are still lottery winners.

Lots of people get what they do not deserve, but it happens all the time.

And yes, depending on what grades got you into pharmacy, you may not deserve that spot as much as the guy who studies more, puts more effort into school and gets higher grades.

I seemed to have gone off in a tangent here, but yea, I still think standardized testing, like the PCAT, is a good thing.

Ah yes, the pinings for a just universe.

I agree that the PCAT is a good thing, but I still feel that it's still ineffective compared to its MD counterpart in terms of assessing critical thinking. It's still a speed test of random memorization. I just happen to remember a lot of things that I learned in classes, even if I got a B or C in them.

To elaborate on the discussion more because I find the idea of objectivity versus subjectivity fun to talk about, I have a couple of interesting examples (myself included). I have a few classmates that are insanely brilliant that had low grades - why they had their low grades come from a number of irritating reasons to some, whether they be laziness, apathy, or what not. However, the institution they went to also recognizes that among the Cs and Ds he got the As he also received were spectacular and rivaled to none. Highly regarded letters from elite institutions carry more weight than your average letter, and the fact that he could best some of those challenging courses at no slouch schools speaks highly of intelligence. The question of course is whether or not you want to admit someone who clearly has a lot of potential but personality-wise enjoys a lazy lifestyle. He is however a good writer and that definitely helps when it comes to any sort of admissions committee to bedazzle others and sell himself well.

That aside, I think that's okay. Lazy people do deserve rewards too as long as they manage to pass a certain threshold of high level competence. Not every (possibly fantastic) pharmacist or MD is a hard-working-studies-every-evening character, nor does she fit into a prototypical personality mold. I'm not sure if I'm as smart as several of my lazy/gifted friends, but I've seen a decent amount throughout my pharmacy education thus far. I went to a well respected institution, and I definitely felt that it had an impact when I went to interviews in terms of who so and so knew from that particular institution. In the professional world, it's all about connections as you know as well. Did I deserve that extra one-up for being a part of that exclusive club? Maybe, maybe not. But I did work hard in high school to be rewarded for it, and I am lucky enough to have parents who have enough money to send me off and about on the luxury quests of self discovery and liberal arts learning. I think that in itself made my education worth it; it helped me become well versed in many subjects and therefore that makes me unique - even if it was born out of a precedence of privilege. So in conclusion, I'm sorta smart, but I'm very well educated. It's hard to find and make that distinction nowadays.

 

[JJVmom]

Uh, yes. How about any CC as compared to a UC? This argument stretches far and wide but unless you've done coursework at a UC, you're ignorant to this topic.

People always defend the CC's saying "I learned soooo much in that course so my 'A' was justified, I had WAY more 1 on 1 than you, so get off my back you jerk UC graduates." Well guess what... For starters, the students in the UC system worked harder than you did in highschool to be accepted to a UC (with the exception of the people who just flat out couldn't afford the cost of a UC). But (yes, contrary to what your teachers with a big bad teaching credential told you at your CC, you CAN start a sentence with but--there's no "rule") at the core of it all, students at the UC learned just as much as you did, if not more, but ended up with a B- because the scenario was three times as competitive. While it IS about what you learn, the CC can take a pass in the GPA department because their class sizes run around 20 students instead of 300-500 that is commonly seen at the UC science level. Thankfully pharmacy schools realize the grossly easier grading system at community colleges and reward those who've done their time in the UC battle fields.

Not saying anybody who went to a CC is a ******, in fact any one of them could be smarter than a UC student, but the clout they have in pharmacy school admissions falls drastically short of those who succeeded at a UC...and that my friends, is not an arguable manner.

The comments above make you sound extremely immature and full of hostility. I can't believe that an educated person that wants to counsel people on medication would type the word "******." Apparently, your UC hasn't taught you anything about communication or compassion.

I have a B.S. from a UC, now - years later - I'm completing my pharm prereqs at a CC. I find the CC classes more demanding at the UC. It's not true that UC students worked harder in high school. There are so many factors involved. The fact that the price is less is the smartest way to go in this economy. The classes are smaller, so you have a better chance of your professor actually getting to know you and you are able to ask questions. In fact, I had some professors at my UC that also taught at the CC - the same class, just another day/time. I'm returning to school b/c I feel like there is so much more I want to learn. It makes more sense to me to be in a class of 35 than a class in the hundreds.

To state that "Thankfully pharmacy schools realize the grossly easier grading system at community colleges and reward those who've done their time in the UC battle fields" is also untrue. There are a couple of pharm schools that require prereqs done at a UC, but all the rest view them equally.

To the person that wrote: "However, a 3.5 GPA at Cornell is definitely not the same as a 3.5 at the community college." You, too, are incorrect. Calculus at Cornell is the same as Calculus at a CC. I've had many friends graduate from Cornell. The classes are not more difficult. At any school, the grading all depends on the teacher. Again, with a couple exceptions (UCSF, I think) the GPA from a CC is the equally compared to the GPA from a UC.

 

[calisoca]

Jjvmom: it's people like you that force me to post with disclaimers. Read my post again, fill your mouth of a response with something ample in diameter.

 

[MrBoba]

Uh, yes. How about any CC as compared to a UC? This argument stretches far and wide but unless you've done coursework at a UC, you're ignorant to this topic.

Thankfully pharmacy schools realize the grossly easier grading system at community colleges and reward those who've done their time in the UC battle fields.

Not saying anybody who went to a CC is a ******, in fact any one of them could be smarter than a UC student, but the clout they have in pharmacy school admissions falls drastically short of those who succeeded at a UC...and that my friends, is not an arguable manner.

I recently spoke to the dean of admissions at UCSF School of Pharmacy, and I asked her a specific question: will taking a course at a CC or at the UC affect my chances for admission? Should I take the University credit for a B, or the CC credit for an A?

She told me to take the A at CC. They don't care where you took your courses, given that your GPA is high. Of course, this doesn't mean they don't care where your Bachelor's is from, I'm sure that it has an effect on their final admissions decision. But if you fulfilled a lot of the pre-reqs at CC for that Bachelor's, it doesn't matter. Let's not forget the interview process either.

 

[calisoca]

I recently spoke to the dean of admissions at UCSF School of Pharmacy, and I asked her a specific question: will taking a course at a CC or at the UC affect my chances for admission? Should I take the University credit for a B, or the CC credit for an A?

She told me to take the A at CC. They don't care where you took your courses, given that your GPA is high. Of course, this doesn't mean they don't care where your Bachelor's is from, I'm sure that it has an effect on their final admissions decision. But if you fulfilled a lot of the pre-reqs at CC for that Bachelor's, it doesn't matter. Let's not forget the interview process either.

you should inform your advisor that in California, pharmacy schools take a Majority of their students from the uc system. At each ca school I interviewed at, this was the case. It seems this topic will never die. That's fine. Good luck CC students, you're minorty status warrants it.

 

[OChemTA]

Ah yes, the pinings for a just universe.

I agree that the PCAT is a good thing, but I still feel that it's still ineffective compared to its MD counterpart in terms of assessing critical thinking. It's still a speed test of random memorization. I just happen to remember a lot of things that I learned in classes, even if I got a B or C in them.

Agreed. I wished there were harder ochem stuff (more conceptual over basic nomenclature). I thought VA and RC were both junk. Bio = memorization, so I forgive it on that. QA is just a guessing game. I just eliminated the impossible choice and guessed "C" for about 10 of the questions... I still got 86 for QA. Overall I got above 90 percentile composite.

To elaborate on the discussion more because I find the idea of objectivity versus subjectivity fun to talk about, I have a couple of interesting examples (myself included). I have a few classmates that are insanely brilliant that had low grades - why they had their low grades come from a number of irritating reasons to some, whether they be laziness, apathy, or what not. However, the institution they went to also recognizes that among the Cs and Ds he got the As he also received were spectacular and rivaled to none. Highly regarded letters from elite institutions carry more weight than your average letter, and the fact that he could best some of those challenging courses at no slouch schools speaks highly of intelligence. The question of course is whether or not you want to admit someone who clearly has a lot of potential but personality-wise enjoys a lazy lifestyle. He is however a good writer and that definitely helps when it comes to any sort of admissions committee to bedazzle others and sell himself well.

That aside, I think that's okay. Lazy people do deserve rewards too as long as they manage to pass a certain threshold of high level competence. Not every (possibly fantastic) pharmacist or MD is a hard-working-studies-every-evening character, nor does she fit into a prototypical personality mold. I'm not sure if I'm as smart as several of my lazy/gifted friends, but I've seen a decent amount throughout my pharmacy education thus far. I went to a well respected institution, and I definitely felt that it had an impact when I went to interviews in terms of who so and so knew from that particular institution. In the professional world, it's all about connections as you know as well. Did I deserve that extra one-up for being a part of that exclusive club? Maybe, maybe not. But I did work hard in high school to be rewarded for it, and I am lucky enough to have parents who have enough money to send me off and about on the luxury quests of self discovery and liberal arts learning. I think that in itself made my education worth it; it helped me become well versed in many subjects and therefore that makes me unique - even if it was born out of a precedence of privilege. So in conclusion, I'm sorta smart, but I'm very well educated. It's hard to find and make that distinction nowadays.

I think being incredibly talented in one subject is often not enough...

Also, I think it's a little misleading to judge a person's "smartness" based on one subject. It could be that instead of having time management, they just focus on one class. Managing 5 courses is much more difficult than just one. When others have to deal with 5 courses and your friend only one (because C's and D's are really easy to get) then it's much easier to excel in that one course. I also don't know how to get a "spectacular" A that rivaled none... is it an A++? a 4.1? joking aside, how did he get that A? Ground breaking research?

I also wanted to add that even though you may be brilliant in one subject, it doesn't mean you'll get hired. Being late to work due to laziness, sloppy in your work or just rude to patients (like House) will get you fired no matter how good you are. It's just like the work "connections". Even if you're not the best you can get a job with good networking, but even if you're good, you may not get a job if you're lazy.

Anyways, you don't have to defend yourself for being lucky. Hell, If I was slacking off, and doing poorly in school and I still got admission into pharmacy over a guy who worked harder, I still wouldn't give up my spot. Nor would I not accept a generous donation of 100k. Life's funny in that way, you get what you get, fair or not. This view on life also means I have no pity for bums and ******s (don't go PC on me... I don't even want to get started on that)

Edit: although I do agree some people are just naturally smart (they can read a book once and ace the test in every subject) I believe the vast, vast majority of doctors and pharmacists got there by studying. I used to think that my smart friends (straight 4.0 taking 5xx courses in 3rd year) were just genetically lucky, but as I learn about their study habits, I find that they just work hard... really hard.

There used to be a time when the vast majority of Americans worked their ***** off in ****ty jobs, happy to just have a job. Now I find that the new generation relies on the backs of others (welfare) and perpetuate the story of others being gifted and blame their failures at having bad genes instead of laziness.

 

[Sparda29]

In my opinion the hardest section on the PCAT is the QA section. We don't even do calculations in Pharmceutics as hard as what I saw on the PCAT. Pharmacists don't need to know trigonometry or calculus. The majority of questions on that test should be simple algebra.

 

[OChemTA]

In my opinion the hardest section on the PCAT is the QA section. We don't even do calculations in Pharmceutics as hard as what I saw on the PCAT. Pharmacists don't need to know trigonometry or calculus. The majority of questions on that test should be simple algebra.

Well, I'm relieved.

I suck at maths so it's good to hear what the difficulty is like.

thanks

 

[MrBoba]

you should inform your advisor that in California, pharmacy schools take a Majority of their students from the uc system. At each ca school I interviewed at, this was the case. It seems this topic will never die. That's fine. Good luck CC students, you're minorty status warrants it.

I don't think I need to inform her anything. She's the friggin' Dean of Admissions at UCSF. Wouldn't she already know this information?

I'm currently attending UCSB applying to declare my major in Pharmacology. I wish I had taken the CC route though. I didn't realize how much money I would be using here... it's more than I thought. Turns out my mom is going to lose a pretty big chunk of welfare money now that I'm not living at home. Now, she has to send me money so I can live here, AND it's coming out of her own pocket (my financial aid wasn't enough to cover all costs at the UC). I might even go back to CC after this year, if it's logical in any way. Haven't thought about it much though.

 

[iBeast]

.

 

[pharmboy316]

you should inform your advisor that in California, pharmacy schools take a Majority of their students from the uc system. At each ca school I interviewed at, this was the case. It seems this topic will never die. That's fine. Good luck CC students, you're minorty status warrants it.

Wow calisoca, that is pretty bold of you to make such claims! Statistics may show that most accepted students graduated from a UC, however statistics also shows that there are more females accepted than males. Does that mean females have a better chance of getting accepted? I highly doubt it because that would be discrimination. Hence, the reasons for such inproportional statistics may be strictly due to inproportional number of applicants between UC students and CC students.

Calisoca, I noticed you tend to make a lot claims and generalizations without much concrete evidence, while most people on this forum, including pre-pharm and current pharm students, discuss their personal experiences. Too bad you're not on the admissions committee to tell us anything important.

 

[Bigz]

I'm from Canada and I don't feel as though we do have grade deflation (I'm at a fairly big university). Instead of grade deflation, the standards are raised for admittance into pharmacy (you're not getting into pharm without at 3.6+ GPA vs people getting into pharm with 3.0-3.3 in USA).

The higher GPA requirement in Canada has nothing to do with raising the standard. The truth of the matter is for a country of more than 30 million people there are only EIGHT pharmacy schools and so naturally competition is fierce. That should not be celebrated as a higher standard at all if anything it should be a shame that Canada does not provide opportunities for her citizens. There are six pharmacy schools in the state of Ohio with 1/3 of Canada's Population. I have a sister with 3.4 GPA and she is studying in England because no Canadian school gave her a look. I have a friend with a full scholarship to George Washington University medical school but could not get into med school in Ontario because there are only four schools for the largest province in the country. I'm glad I live in the Land of Opportunities now. USA.

 

[Artful Dodger]

My university is actually going through a grade deflation...instructors are getting tougher here. So, I definitely had to earn my grades. I agree, it's unfair that someone could have it easier than I had it & be looked at in the same breadth. However, I look at it from the perspective that I'm going to have an easier time in pharmacy school than "those" particular people because of my academic background (don't interpret this as an ego thing though). It's whatever...In the end, it will unfold the way it should...Good luck to all!