Academic Suregry position-vs-Surgery Faculty Position

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MElSorady

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Kindly I have a question please. What is the difference between an academic surgrical position and faculty position in surgery, and does any of them require research experience. If so, what kind of research is more preferred by both, if thery are different (basic/clinical research), and why?

I am currently working in a basic research project but wondering if better to shift to clinical research so I get more papers published by the end of my appointment, and before starting residency.

Thank you and looking forward to hearing from you soon.
 
Are you asking about a residency position, or attending position, at an academic program?


My question is, what is the difference between academic surgery position and faculty surgery position. I know you can't be attending till you done from residnecy, fellowship +/- subspeciality fellowship and get ABS.

Thank you
 
My question is, what is the difference between academic surgery position and faculty surgery position. I know you can't be attending till you done from residnecy, fellowship +/- subspeciality fellowship and get ABS.

Thank you

1) "by "get ABS" I assume you mean to be Board Certified. You are not required to be BC to be an attending; as a matter of fact, many foreign trained physicians are not eligible for US BC, but can get employed with an institutional medical license.

2) it appears to me that you are making more of the semantics than there needs to be. An academic medical center is one which has teaching programs: residencies and/or medical school. Faculty employed may have academic appointments in which they are charged with teaching medical students and/or residents/fellows as part of their job. Some may not and are either involved only in doing research or are not on the "teaching service". The latter is more common for administrative positions (ie, the department Chair) and non-surgical departments.

So in essence, most surgical department faculty are employed in an academic track with a few exceptions.

Outside of academic medical centers/hospitals, surgeons are typically not employed by a hospital (although there are some in employed positions with insurance companies/HMOs/VAs). There is no "department" of surgery, no faculty.

The latter typically does not require research. Academic medical positions may require a varying amount of research. Surgeons doing research don't bring in money unless they have a big grant or bring in prestige, and by that, patients; they bring in money when they operate. So unless you have a T1 grant or other funding source, you are expected to spend most of your time in clinical duties and a certain percentage either teaching and/or running a lab. Some academic surgeons only do clinical work and have no lab or research activities required. YMMV. Whether you do basic science, translational or clinical research is up to you - surgeons participate in all venues.

If you are interested in research, I would not worry about getting substantial work done during medical school (it is a bit confusing because you talk about starting residency but your status already lists you as a resident). Many academic surgery residencies will provide, indeed even require, 2 years or more in the research lab, during which time you can get published (or at the very least submit something).

If you are a student wanting to get more research done and published before residency, bear in mind that it does take a few years to do so. More is not necessarily better. If you are already working on some basic science research that has the potential to be published, it may be faster than quitting and starting all over from scratch with a clinical research project.
 
Well from where i come from, the difference is that an academic resident works in a medical college and when he graduates, his job besides medicine, is a teacher for students and residents

I am actually an academic resident [a.k.a demonstrator] in King Abdulaziz Univ in Saudi Arabia ;D

Does it actually make a difference in a CV if u're an academic or not ?

G luck
 
Thank you for you detailed reply. I really appreciat the wealth of knowledge you provide to members of this site. In fact, I am medical student who applied for residency this match and got great offers, even got prematch offers from some top ranked surgery programs and I considered one. However, currently I am a postdoc doing a basic research till I start residency. So you can say I am a resident, but officially not yet as I am still working in research.

In fact, I asked that question as I am looking for faculty position later on, but I am wondering if I do have to do more research before or after finishing my residency.
 
Thank you for you detailed reply. I really appreciat the wealth of knowledge you provide to members of this site. In fact, I am medical student who applied for residency this match and got great offers, even got prematch offers from some top ranked surgery programs and I considered one. However, currently I am a postdoc doing a basic research till I start residency. So you can say I am a resident, but officially not yet as I am still working in research.

No actually, we wouldn't say you are a resident. I would encourage you to change your status to post-doc as that accurately reflects what you are currently doing and doesn't confuse other users.

In fact, I asked that question as I am looking for faculty position later on, but I am wondering if I do have to do more research before or after finishing my residency.

In general, research done before residency isn't weighted very heavily when considering post-residency employment unless it results in a significant published body of work. If you were advised to turn down a prematch offer at a "top ranked surgery program" to do more basic science research to enable you to get a faculty position after residency, I'm afraid, IMHO, you were given bad advice. The longer time you spend away from clinical medicine the more difficult you will find it to match especially when considering the increase in applications, especially from US grads.
 
In fact, I am medical student who applied for residency this match and got great offers, even got prematch offers from some top ranked surgery programs and I considered one. However, currently I am a postdoc doing a basic research till I start residency. So you can say I am a resident, but officially not yet as I am still working in research.

Why in the world would you turn down a pre-match offer to a top residency program? 😕 Was it to do research at an ivory tower (from your previous posts, looks like you may be at one of the Harvard affiliates, or the Mayo) in the hopes of landing a categorical spot there?

Did you apply for this research fellowship before or after you'd heard from the residency programs?

I also wouldn't call yourself a resident yet - not until you actually START residency. Just because you graduated from med school doesn't make you a resident. I would list "post-doc" as your status.
 
No actually, we wouldn't say you are a resident. I would encourage you to change your status to post-doc as that accurately reflects what you are currently doing and doesn't confuse other users.



In general, research done before residency isn't weighted very heavily when considering post-residency employment unless it results in a significant published body of work. If you were advised to turn down a prematch offer at a "top ranked surgery program" to do more basic science research to enable you to get a faculty position after residency, I'm afraid, IMHO, you were given bad advice. The longer time you spend away from clinical medicine the more difficult you will find it to match especially when considering the increase in applications, especially from US grads.[/QUOTE]


Don't worry, I am not an idiot to do so. I have accepted the prematch and withdrowed from the match already. The point is I have to contiue my basic research till I started residency as I got AHA grant and I can't just withdrow from the research as I have 2 year commitment with the institution that will be done by June, 10.

In addition, I apologize if I stated that I am a resident before actual start of residency. I have changed it to post-doc. Anyhow, thank you very much for your opinion.
 
Why in the world would you turn down a pre-match offer to a top residency program? 😕 Was it to do research at an ivory tower (from your previous posts, looks like you may be at one of the Harvard affiliates, or the Mayo) in the hopes of landing a categorical spot there?

Did you apply for this research fellowship before or after you'd heard from the residency programs?

I also wouldn't call yourself a resident yet - not until you actually START residency. Just because you graduated from med school doesn't make you a resident. I would list "post-doc" as your status.


Please look at my previous post. I have addressed your point.

Thank you.
 
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Winged Scapula,

Please could you let me know in essence what should I do during my residency to increase my chances to get a faculty position later? Dispite the fact that if they have available positions or not. I am just asking about the ideal situation.

Thank you very much for your time and advice.
 
Winged Scapula,

Please could you let me know in essence what should I do during my residency to increase my chances to get a faculty position later? Dispite the fact that if they have available positions or not. I am just asking about the ideal situation.
If you want to be on faculty at a hospital, you need to be board eligible or (ideally) board certified (or on your way to becoming so, if you are a new graduate).

If you want to be on faculty at an academic institution, in addition to the above, many places will require fellowship training in some general surgery specialty as well as an academic/research interest. You don't have to have lab experience and you don't need to be fully funded to get a job (though it may be required of you to stay on after the first few years).
 
SocialistMD,

Thank you very much for your advice, I really appreciate your time and opinion. The thing I like about faculty position is that it is a little bit steady job. I mean not like you having residency in one institution, then traveling to another for fellowship, then you don't know what to do so you do another fellowship. For me it is a presitious thing to have, though some may not agree, but I feel it is really exciting as it allows me to interact broadly eith residents/fellows.

Thank you again.
 
SocialistMD,

Thank you very much for your advice, I really appreciate your time and opinion. The thing I like about faculty position is that it is a little bit steady job. I mean not like you having residency in one institution, then traveling to another for fellowship, then you don't know what to do so you do another fellowship.

I don't follow this. Why would you have to do another fellowship unles you can't get a job? I'm not sure academic surgery is any more steady than any other job in medicine; you can always be fired (unless you own your own practice).

For me it is a presitious thing to have, though some may not agree, but I feel it is really exciting as it allows me to interact broadly eith residents/fellows.

Thank you again.

We can be open - it was me that told you I didn't think that being medical school or residency faculty was necessarily prestigious except at the most high falutin' places. Hell, if I can have a faculty appointment, probably most anyone can but I actually find more prestige in being one of the few the "go to" people than I do from being on faculty somewhere. But that's just me. Teaching is fun and exciting, but that is a separate factor from prestige.
 
I don't follow this. Why would you have to do another fellowship unles you can't get a job? I'm not sure academic surgery is any more steady than any other job in medicine; you can always be fired (unless you own your own practice).



We can be open - it was me that told you I didn't think that being medical school or residency faculty was necessarily prestigious except at the most high falutin' places. Hell, if I can have a faculty appointment, probably most anyone can but I actually find more prestige in being one of the few the "go to" people than I do from being on faculty somewhere. But that's just me. Teaching is fun and exciting, but that is a separate factor from prestige.


I meant if you are really hard worker, and you do beyound what is expected from you, and in abscence of any economic crisis, I would say the chance to get fired is low, I know it is still exsisting as the bottom line is that anything in U.S. could happen.
 
I meant if you are really hard worker, and you do beyound what is expected from you, and in abscence of any economic crisis, I would say the chance to get fired is low, I know it is still exsisting as the bottom line is that anything in U.S. could happen.

Or, as can often happen in academics, you piss off the wrong person, side with the loser in a struggle for power, have bad luck in securing grants, do not publish enough in prestigious journals, come to be viewed as a threat to someone else's job (even if you aren't after it), and don't watch your back.

You should not underestimate the politics involved in obtaining and keeping a position in academics at some institutions. In certain environments, working really hard and exceeding expectations is not enough.
 
Or, as can often happen in academics, you piss off the wrong person, side with the loser in a struggle for power, have bad luck in securing grants, do not publish enough in prestigious journals, come to be viewed as a threat to someone else's job (even if you aren't after it), and don't watch your back.

You should not underestimate the politics involved in obtaining and keeping a position in academics at some institutions. In certain environments, working really hard and exceeding expectations is not enough.


Yes, indeed. However, every rule has its exceptions! The matter of fact I know 2 friends of mine who are FMG and they got Faculty positions in CT Surgery in a one of the three top program, just because they were really hard worker and stuck in the OR always. even they were being paged and go from their homes to hospital even they are not on call. (I know it is not hard to do, but may be such a thing may impress your PD, even not, it is good to disregard who's on call, and who's not, and rush to help patints anyway). Thus, they claimed ''outstanding'' LoR by which they got this position.

Thank you for your opinion.
 
Always be careful about pursuing a career path just because you "know" a person or two who has done it before. There are many CT surgeons from other countries who then struggle to get into decent fellowships here, and then subsequently have problems finding academic jobs (let alone in strong programs).
 
Always be careful about pursuing a career path just because you "know" a person or two who has done it before.

QFT.

There are many CT surgeons from other countries who then struggle to get into decent fellowships here, and then subsequently have problems finding academic jobs (let alone in strong programs).

Additionally, they may actually only be eligible for academic jobs on an institutional license. If they are not Board Eligible, most PP groups won't hire them given the difficulties in getting hospital privileges on on insurance plans without it.
 
QFT.



Additionally, they may actually only be eligible for academic jobs on an institutional license. If they are not Board Eligible, most PP groups won't hire them given the difficulties in getting hospital privileges on on insurance plans without it.


I consider that possibility as well. As I said before, anything could happen in this country, doesn't have to be bad, anything good also can happen. The point is that both of them their J1 is waived after they have done from general surgery and joined CT surgery. I don't think that an institution will waive and they are not interested in them. I don't have that problem anyhow cause I have citizenship.

Thanks anyhow for the comments.
 
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Always be careful about pursuing a career path just because you "know" a person or two who has done it before. There are many CT surgeons from other countries who then struggle to get into decent fellowships here, and then subsequently have problems finding academic jobs (let alone in strong programs).


Thank you for the advice. In fact I like CT surgery myself even before I knew them. I quoted them just as an example that the bottom line in US that anything could happen.

Thanks again
 
Yes, anything can happen. But that's like saying you're going to keep buying lottery tickets because "it's possible you might win."

Again, I would caution against planning your entire life based on a friend's friend's story. If you have good, reliable contacts, then that's different.
 
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