Accelerated Baccalaureate/MD program

[hsmed]

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I'm putting my question here bc I want to hear from current medical students and residents/attendings, rather than from premeds who will likely blindly tell me to just take it and be thankful. Please take the time to read if you can.

I got accepted to an out-of-state 6 year BA/MD program and I'm really excited about starting in August, but I'm starting to have some doubts about attending. I've liked and taken all AP science classes (Chem, Bio, Physics B), I loved my human anatomy class in high school, and I did very run-of-the mill healthcare-related extracurrics and volunteering activities during high school which I liked - nothing extraordinary. I'm not sure if my doubts I'm having now are with the undergrad/med school itself or doing an accelerated/combined program. At least for now, I don't think it's medicine itself.

The undergrad is not that great - it's more of a commuter campus, and is ranked in the 200s in US News. The medical school is entirely built around being a 6 year program, so nearly everyone who attends enters after high school, unlike other programs where those in a 6/7/8 year program join a class that went the traditional route. It runs for 6 years straight, with no summers off. Bc I'm out-of-state, and paying a lot in tuition (see below) I likely will want to become a specialist which will likely be something competitive. My parents aren't physicians or rich.

The main difference I'm seeing between this program and a 4 year med school is that they boast about getting their students much more clinical exposure vs. a traditional 4 year medical school (I've modified & copied this part)

Years 1-2: You are assigned to teams of 10 – 12 students from your class under a teaching physician. Students are educated and mentored on the fundamentals of medicine where you interact with patients and learn effective communication skills and patient-centered interviewing, professional behavior, diversity, and the social and community contexts of health care.

Years 3-6:
You are assigned to a team of 12 students from Years 3-6 (3 in each class) under the same Internal Medicine teaching physician for 4 years, where you spend a half day per week in an outpatient Internal Medicine continuity clinic and do a 2 month Internal Medicine rotation each year in years 4 – 6.

The only problem is that they really emphasize Internal Medicine, and nearly at all other med schools your only Internal Medicine exposure is 2-3 months total max. I know I don't want to do primary care Internal Medicine.

Advantages so far that I can think of:

• not having to study and take the MCAT
• not having to work to rack up extracurriculars/volunteering/research and go through the normal med school admissions process
• not having to take many of the premed requirements: no Physics, a year of Organic Chem, no Biology
• Time: Saving 2 full years and maybe a big self-esteem boost from graduating at 24 (vs. 26)
• Being more clinically ahead at the start of residency bc of early clinical exposure (see above); although unless I'm doing Internal Medicine, I don't see how the above really helps me. I also don't know if it is really as huge of an advantage as they say it is.

Several questions:

1. Why do more medical schools not offer 6 year programs or 7/8 year combined programs?
2. If you had been offered the chance, would you go to this type of program directly after high school? Why or why not? Would it be different if the med school were higher ranked?
3. Did you think you really needed 4 full years of college and being involved in extracurriculars/health experiences/research to learn what medicine is really like and be prepared for med school?
4. If I go to this program will I be at a disadvantage if I'm going for something competitive or if a specific competitive residency I want is not offered at my school
5. Does it make you look better for residencies if you've graduated from a 6 year BA/MD program vs. the traditional med student?

I tried searching on the program but most of posts were from early 2000s so things might have changed.

 

[hsmed]

About the program:

Undergrad Ranking: 200s
Medical School Ranking: Unranked

Out-of-state Tuition:
Year 1 - 39K, Year 2 - 49K, Year 3-6 - 60K/year = 328 K

Scholarship support:
None; scholarship/grant support for the BA/MD program is pretty bad, esp. if you're out of state.

Undergrad Degree:
BA degrees only, Chem/Bio/Psych/Sociology/Communication Studies/Spanish degrees all require you to come in with a lot of outside credit. So most people do a Liberal Arts degree bc it's the easiest degree to accomplish to fit in 6 years.

Requirement to promote each year in the program: 2.8 Science GPA (includes undergrad and med school sciences)

Grading:

• All science classes in undergrad and med school are letter-graded
• All rotations are graded Honors--High Pass--Satisfactory Pass--Marginal Pass--Fail (not part of GPA)
• Cumulative GPA is calculated from Year 1-6 and reported to residency

Undergrad Science (no Bio, no Physics)

• General Chemistry I and II + Labs
• Elementary Organic Chemistry + Lab
• Anatomy + Lab
• Microbiology + Lab
• Cell Biology
• Genetics

Basic Science:

• Biochem (4 months)
• Human Structure Function (6 months) -- Anatomy, Embryology, Histology, Physiology taught together by organ system
• Neuroscience (4 months)
• Microbiology (4 months)
• Pathology (4 months)
• Pharmacology (2 months)

Boards:
They won't tell me what their avg. Step 1 score is when I asked; They told me that the pass rate is at the national average; I was able to find out that their avg. USMLE Step 2 CK score for last year was 229.

Clinicals:

• 1/2 day a week ambulatory Internal Medicine clinic (in Years 3-6)
• 2 months of Internal Medicine (done once a year in Year 4-6)
• 2 months of Surgery
• 2 months of Pediatrics
• 2 months of OB-Gyn
• 1 month of Psych
• 1 month of Family Med
• 1 month of Emergency Medicine
• 1 month of Critical Care Elective

Residencies available:

• General Surgery, Orthopaedic Surgery, Ophthalmology
• Internal Medicine, Medicine/Pediatrics, Pediatrics, Family Medicine, Obstetrics/Gynecology, Psychiatry, Emergency Medicine
• Radiology, Anesthesiology, Pathology

Miscellaneous

• Students don't actually do dissection in the required Anatomy course, they look at prosected cadavers
• I've heard that the teaching internist you're assigned to for all 4 years in Year 3-6 can be hit or miss, so it can be a really great experience or really bad.

 

[Brain Bucket]

lol. sounds like a scam. make sure all teh accreditations are in place.

Jesus, 60k a year. I mean, I know a lot of private schools charge that kind of tuition, but 328k principal? That's a crippling debt.

I'm not paying tuition, so perhaps it just sounds especially bad to me.

I dunno man, I think college changed me for the better. I really had a great time in undergrad. We had a huge campus and an awesome student body. On the other hand, if you think this is your one great chance at happiness, go for it. I'd say do it for a year, if you're happy, stick with it, otherwise just transfer out. Keep in mind that you'll need really good grades to transfer to a decent school, so work your ass off that first year.

 

[alpinism]

Most people on here (including myself) are of the opinion that if you are smart enough to get into a BS/MD program, you should have no trouble getting into a regular MD program after undergrad.

To answer your questions:

1. Because most US schools prefer to recruit well rounded and mature students who have completed undergrad and who have at least some real-world experience post HS (including clinical experience, research, and community service).

2. No. I don't think I would have been able to make an informed decision about medical school and becoming a physician (8+ years of training) as a HS student. I also enjoyed my undergrad years and learned a lot.

3. Yes.

4. Yes. 6 yr programs are generally not well regarded by residency directors and tend to match poorly. Not to mention the school is unranked and costs 60K per year.

5. No. It looks worse (see #1 and #4). In addition there is a perception that BS/MD students tend to be weaker clinically. The information posted above looks like its basically shadowing and maybe interviewing during yrs 1-2 and the exact same thing as most medical schools during yrs 3-6. I don't see that type of curriculum giving you any extra clinical exposure or advantage on rotations.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Moving to Pre Allo.

 

[DermViser]

Moving to Pre Allo.

I could be misreading, but didn't the OP want responses from those in the Allopathic forum bc

I'm putting my question here bc I want to hear from current medical students and residents/attendings, rather than from premeds who will likely blindly tell me to just take it and be thankful. Please take the time to read if you can.

I can understand his/her point bc premeds are much likelier to say take any acceptance regardless of the merits, since they have to go thru premed hell to get an acceptance vs. a BA/MD student who doesn't have to go thru that?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I could be misreading, but didn't the OP want responses from those in the Allopathic forum bc

I can understand his/her point bc premeds are much likelier to say take any acceptance regardless of the merits, since they have to go thru premed hell to get an acceptance vs. a BA/MD student who doesn't have to go thru that?

Doesn't matter; you can't just put a Disclaimer on the post ("I'm posting this here because....", "Im not asking for medical advice...") and violate the standard policy.

Questions from premeds go into the Pre Med forums unless the topic is of interest and relevant to current medical students. This one belongs in the Pre Med forum. As you yourself are an example of, med students, residents and even attendings do read and respond to posts in other forums.

 

[DermViser]

Doesn't matter; you can't just put a Disclaimer on the post ("I'm posting this here because....", "Im not asking for medical advice...") and violate the standard policy.

Questions from premeds go into the Pre Med forums unless the topic is of interest and relevant to current medical students. This one belongs in the Pre Med forum. As you yourself are an example of, med students, residents and even attendings do read and respond to posts in other forums.

Ah, ok, gotcha.

 

[DokterMom]

Is this school in the NYC area? If so, please search here some more for some school-specific information. If I recall, I read a few threads about a specialized 6-year program in the greater NYC area that attracted a number of disadvantaged/URM applicants in healthcare. (Going on memory here...)

And some posters really struggled there -- Found the school not very supportive, realized that their sub-par high schools hadn't prepared them very well compared to students from magnet schools or top NYC publics, maybe had some maturity issues (they're 18-19, right?), etc. Anyway, they ended up failing out of the program for whatever reason, then found themselves in a really disadvantaged position for career recovery because they had to answer 'yes' to having flunked out of medical school and/or being accepted and withdrawing. Plus, their 'BS' degree, if they even had one, was pretty worthless.

Bottom line: There are some 6-year programs that are really, really good, and would be a shame to pass up. You need to know if this one is one of those... So post your program name so those folks here who have school-specific knowledge can say so. Or get a new user ID, word your question carefully (just in case the school reads it) and start a new thread in the school-specific sub-forum.

 

[DermViser]

Is this school in the NYC area? If so, please search here some more for some school-specific information. If I recall, I read a few threads about a specialized 6-year program in the greater NYC area that attracted a number of disadvantaged/URM applicants in healthcare. (Going on memory here...)

And some posters really struggled there -- Found the school not very supportive, realized that their sub-par high schools hadn't prepared them very well compared to students from magnet schools or top NYC publics, maybe had some maturity issues (they're 18-19, right?), etc. Anyway, they ended up failing out of the program for whatever reason, then found themselves in a really disadvantaged position for career recovery because they had to answer 'yes' to having flunked out of medical school and/or being accepted and withdrawing. Plus, their 'BS' degree, if they even had one, was pretty worthless.

Bottom line: There are some 6-year programs that are really, really good, and would be a shame to pass up. You need to know if this one is one of those... So post your program name so those folks here who have school-specific knowledge can say so. Or get a new user ID, word your question carefully (just in case the school reads it) and start a new thread in the school-specific sub-forum.

I think you're referring to the Sophie Davis program, which is a 7 year program - http://www.ccny.cuny.edu/sophiedavis/bs-md-program.cfm

If I remember correctly, there was an exact post of someone just recently who failed out of that program and wanted to go back thru the premed route and was wondering if it was possible. Edit: Yes, right here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/sophie-davis-drop-out.1069976/#post-15322210

 

[accueil]

Sounds like UMKC?

 

[kyamh]

I wouldn't recommend this program to anyone.

For every medical student, I am sure there are at least 100 others who thought they were going to go to medical school and found other passions. You are too young to commit to a career, no matter how sure you may be.

Even if you decide to go to medical school after all, you aren't really gaining two years of your life, you are losing two years of what could be an awesome, fun, engaging, and life-changing undergraduate experience. I don't even think that students ought to go to medical school right out of college, much less even faster 😉

 

[Microshaft]

meanwhile outside of the US...

 

[lmn]

Personally I wouldn't take that opportunity. I had no idea what I wanted to become entering college, and my freshman bio/chem classes were filled with people who wanted to be a doctor since the age of 5, and like the story is at every other school, nearly every single one of them changed their plans and/or majors within the first year or two. I honestly don't believe you have experienced enough of what is out there yet to make a good decision on what career path you want to take and something like a BS/MD unfortunately locks you much more into a choice than a standard path.

And for what? 2 more years as a practicing attending and a few hundred K extra? Not worth it imo. Go to a regular university and enjoy yourself and work your way through life like everyone else, if you want to keep medicine open as an option, do the volunteering/etc, as much as it may seem like boxes to check off you can actually really learn a lot from those experiences. If you decide you love another subject, switch to that and avoid being locked into a career that you may not enjoy as much.

 

[DokterMom]

I think you're referring to the Sophie Davis program, which is a 7 year program - http://www.ccny.cuny.edu/sophiedavis/bs-md-program.cfm

If I remember correctly, there was an exact post of someone just recently who failed out of that program and wanted to go back thru the premed route and was wondering if it was possible. Edit: Yes, right here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/sophie-davis-drop-out.1069976/#post-15322210

Yes - that's the one, and the posts I was referring to. Thanks @DermViser

 

[hsmed]

Is this school in the NYC area? If so, please search here some more for some school-specific information. If I recall, I read a few threads about a specialized 6-year program in the greater NYC area that attracted a number of disadvantaged/URM applicants in healthcare. (Going on memory here...)

And some posters really struggled there -- Found the school not very supportive, realized that their sub-par high schools hadn't prepared them very well compared to students from magnet schools or top NYC publics, maybe had some maturity issues (they're 18-19, right?), etc. Anyway, they ended up failing out of the program for whatever reason, then found themselves in a really disadvantaged position for career recovery because they had to answer 'yes' to having flunked out of medical school and/or being accepted and withdrawing. Plus, their 'BS' degree, if they even had one, was pretty worthless.

Bottom line: There are some 6-year programs that are really, really good, and would be a shame to pass up. You need to know if this one is one of those... So post your program name so those folks here who have school-specific knowledge can say so. Or get a new user ID, word your question carefully (just in case the school reads it) and start a new thread in the school-specific sub-forum.

Sounds like UMKC?

Yes, it's the University of Missouri-Kansas City (UMKC) BA/MD program. I think it's the 6 year thing that makes it so hard to let go -- to save a whole 2 yrs. is a long time. The program started in 1971 and has always been 6 years long. There are other 6 year programs but the MCAT is required for NEOMED (24) and Penn State-Jefferson Medical College (30, no less than 9 on each subsection), after the 2nd year before entering the medical school.

Bachelor of Liberal Arts:
http://www.umkc.edu/majormaps/maps/2014-2015/SOM_BLA_MD_2014_2015.pdf

Bachelor in Biology:
http://www.umkc.edu/majormaps/maps/2014-2015/SOM_BA_MD_Bio_2014_2015.pdf

 

[DermViser]

Yes, it's the University of Missouri-Kansas City (UMKC) BA/MD program. I think it's the 6 year thing that makes it so hard to let go -- to save a whole 2 yrs. is a long time.

😆😆😆🤣🤣🤣

 

[accueil]

😆😆😆🤣🤣🤣

When I was just starting college, I had a very similar sentiment. Get out of undergrad ASAP and start med school NOW. Once I started undergrad though my perspective changed. Now, I'm trying to drag out my undergrad experience as long as possible (well, not super long lol). If you go to a great comprehensive university, you will have so many opportunities to take advantage of like taking classes completely unrelated to your major that you've always been interested in (European literature, in my case). This is also one of your only chances to study abroad

Right now it might seem like MEDICINE OR BUST, but many people do a complete 180 in their first two years of college. Why lock yourself into this program? I don't know what your other options are (didn't you have to decide in May?), but give this some more thought.

 

[DermViser]

When I was just starting college, I had a very similar sentiment. Get out of undergrad ASAP and start med school NOW. Once I started undergrad though my perspective changed. Now, I'm trying to drag out my undergrad experience as long as possible (well, not super long lol). If you go to a great comprehensive university, you will have so many opportunities to take advantage of like taking classes completely unrelated to your major that you've always been interested in (European literature, in my case). This is also one of your only chances to study abroad

Right now it might seem like MEDICINE OR BUST, but many people do a complete 180 in their first two years of college. Why lock yourself into this program? I don't know what your other options are (didn't you have to decide in May?), but give this some more thought.

I think you were addressing the last paragraph to OP. I was laughing bc he was saying that 2 years is such a long time, it's not. But thru the lens of an 18 year old just graduating high school, I guess 2 years is a long time (been awhile since I was 18, lol).

Just looking at how he's described and listed on the program there seem to be so many pitfalls in so many ways, with not enough return for the very real pricetag.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Here are some of my thoughts... You are guaranteed admission. You don't have to take the MCAT nor go through the hell of the huge pre-med EC dog and pony show. Not to mention that no one knows what to expect for the new 2015 MCAT...

 

[allantois]

My ONLY problem with this program is its cost. Nevertheless, it sounds like a legitimate program (it's curriculum for first 2 years is surely very rigorous) and remember that they accepted you because they felt like you know what you are getting yourself into. Most freshmen who come to college as pre-meds do change their minds, but those people have absolutely no idea what they are trying to get themselves into in the first place. So many more college students end up graduating in more than 4 years now, and even more are taking gap years.

Also, Internal Medicine (or just medicine) is what medical schools are supposed to teach students primarily, it does not at all seem like that medical school has any extra focus on this; it's different from having a focus on primary care/rural medicine.

I don't have the "popular" opinion on this forum, but I just want to say that nowhere in the world but in North America are medical students not recruited straight out of high school.

 

[ciestar]

For me personally, I very much enjoyed my undergraduate experience as well as my volunteering experiences. I don't think id give that up. Sure the application process sucks, but undergrad is meant to be an enjoyable experience.

 

[DermViser]

Here are some of my thoughts... You are guaranteed admission. You don't have to take the MCAT nor go through the hell of the huge pre-med EC dog and pony show. Not to mention that no one knows what to expect for the new 2015 MCAT...

ECs aren't a dog and pony show. They're so that you can figure out whether medicine is something you're ok with doing for the rest of your life. If it's only a "dog and pony" show for you, then it means you're just using it to play the med school admissions game rather than actually figuring out that you're ok with doing medicine.
While the MCAT will be changing, it's not like it's going to be magnanimously different than before.

 

[DermViser]

@hsmed you might want to look at the comments. Overall, not very good.

Got accepted and turned it down - students looked miserable during the tour and at dinner I heard a decent amount of comments about regretting missing out on the college experience. Decided that being surrounded by the same 80 people for 6 years would be exponentially worse than high school, chose a regular route and have never looked back. Ran into a UMKC grad at the gym and she basically told me that was the smartest decision I've ever made

There are several threads on SDN about UMKC, granted they are older, but still, they're a good read. IMHO, I have NEVER heard anyone say anything positive about the program: this comes not only from UMKC students who have posted in SDN, but also directly from conversations I've had with 3 separate UMKC 6-year students.

The schedule is crazy, the student end up being miserable, their board scores don't tend to be the highest, and their residency match lists aren't the best. I don't think the students, faculty, or institution are bad, but craming a BA and an MD into 6-years makes everyone miserable

I hear a lot of the 6-year students are kind of miserable, because the schedule is so intense and they didn't get the "normal" college undergrad experience. I applied on a whim while I was in high school and got rejected (thank god)

Good choice. I regret doing the six-year BA/MD pathway. You get absolutely no breaks at all (not even summer breaks). I'm not sure if I'm going to retain any knowledge of my chemistry undergrad when they move us over to the medical building this upcoming semester by truman medical center. 4+undergrad/4+MD is the way to go.

UMKC is a 6-year BS/MD program. They take em right out of high school and feed em to the wolves. I live in KC, and have heard some rumors that they are having some problems with accredidation. I don't know if that answers your question or not-- you were kinda vague.

I went to a summer program in Chicago .... and I heard the exact same thing about NEOUCOM from a couple of people...on who had several family members graduate from their..... you have time to study...and thats about it...for all six years....

UMKC is actually accepting more MD students because many of the 'track' or six year students are dropping out like flies.

 

[alpinism]

@HSMD you might want to look at the comments. Overall, not very good.

Sounds horrible.

 

[DermViser]

Sounds horrible.

I agree. In looking at the list, http://www.minimedicalschool.com/BA_MD_programs.html, there are some programs in which you're getting a great deal when it comes to the undergrad, as well as a high caliber medical school. I'm sure those specific programs are ridiculously hard to get into and probably require participation in medical research as a high schooler. Even if you change your mind about med school, you can still graduate with a good degree from a good university.

If it tells you anything, the 6 year model has largely failed in the United States, where the programs have either disappeared (i.e. Michigan Inteflex) or they've now either increased in length to 7 (which you do yourself graduating 1 year early) or 8 years. The reason for this is bc in the past, these students don't do as well on the boards and bring the school average down.

Out of @hsmed's list, the only 6 year program even worth going to is the Penn State-Jefferson program, and that's only bc of the medical school. But it looks like they have a tight filter with high school GPA, SAT/ACT score, and then again with the MCAT before allowing them to continue.

 

[Planes2Doc]

ECs aren't a dog and pony show. They're so that you can figure out whether medicine is something you're ok with doing for the rest of your life. If it's only a "dog and pony" show for you, then it means you're just using it to play the med school admissions game rather than actually figuring out that you're ok with doing medicine.
While the MCAT will be changing, it's not like it's going to be magnanimously different than before.

After a few shadowing and volunteering sessions, you can get a pretty good idea of whether medicine is or isn't for you. My problem is where it becomes nothing more than a game to rack up as many hours over as many ECs as possible far beyond thse needed to make an educated decision about your future. Unless you're one of those rare genuinely altruistic people tht are genuinely passionate about these things, then I'm guessing you might not end up having the best time in college.