acceptance into top-tier without biochem, genetics or cell bio?

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fastfingers

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Has anybody had any luck getting accepted into top tier med school without taking biochem, genetics, cell bio or any upper level bio/chem class? My major isn't directly science and since I want to acquire a business minor, I wouldn't have space for those classes. I know a lot of top tier recommend those classes, so do people still think I have a shot without those classes? Can anybody speak from personal experience?
 
I would be weary. I kinda doubt there'd be many top-tier accepted students without those core upper div bio classes. What bio classes did you take to meet the application pre-reqs? I don't know where you are in the application process but my suggestion would be to drop your minor and beef up on your bio. Biochem at the very least is a must. More bio classes (esp. physiology) would also help prepare you for the bio portion of the MCAT in case you haven't taken that yet either.

In regard to business, if you really want a solid business background I'd suggest adding an MBA in medschool. Most of the schools I interviewed at offered joint MD/MBA once you're there at the cost of some night classes and an additional year. I imagine this would prepare you a lot better for mangement/private practice than an undergrad minor would.

(my 2 cents)
 
Well, I'm looking into adding an MBA in medschool, but I was hoping my business minor would help me get accepted into the MBA programs. I've basically taken just the basic premed courses (gen bio, gen chem) and nothing in the upper level. I still have time to decide though.

Should I just drop my minor so I can take upper level?

Also, is it better for me not to take upper level (biochem) until senior year, so I'll have extra time to study for the MCAT?
 
fastfingers said:
Well, I'm looking into adding an MBA in medschool, but I was hoping my business minor would help me get accepted into the MBA programs. I've basically taken just the basic premed courses (gen bio, gen chem) and nothing in the upper level. I still have time to decide though.

Should I just drop my minor so I can take upper level?

Also, is it better for me not to take upper level (biochem) until senior year, so I'll have extra time to study for the MCAT?
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From my understanding, acceptance into MD/MBA is nearly automatic, along with other MD/M__ programs. Getting into the MD program is the hard part and a lot of schools will take your MCAT scores in lieu of say a GRE or GMAT.

Therefore I would look more into this and dropping your minor.

In regard to your upper div bio classes...I'd take them as early as you can handle them. The more upper div bio classes you have before the MCAT the better you'll be prepared. If you can I'd backload your major classes to your senior year since they don't matter for the application and take as many pre-MCAT classes as you can before you take the MCAT. If you're worried about taking hard science classes while studying for the MCAT then you may want to consider that med school is going to be intense hard science so you'll need to be up for the challenge.
 
ive also heard that getting into one of those programs is pretty easy once your actually accepted. Id focus on the upper div bio over getting a business minor for sure.
 
Strictly speaking, the MBA isn't guaranteed at schools like Wharton, HBS, or Booth. You have to apply to the business school with your MD application or during the first year at HMS, or during your third year for Wharton/Booth, and definitely have to take the GMAT. Pritzker pretty much said that 100% of students that applied to Booth got in (and they have a full scholarship for the year at Booth that they split over the MD/MBA students), while PennMed and HMS did not make any guarantees but did say that their students were very competitive at Wharton/HBS.

In general, however, each of these MD programs is extremely competitive, so you're going to be among the top applicants to their MBA programs. I don't have any real sense of how much a business minor helps you get into MBA programs, but I'd guess that having a more complete medical school application will probably be more helpful for getting an MD/MBA. While I didn't take genetics or cell biology, I did take a few upper level biology electives in bioengineering and lab techniques, and most of my friends who applied to competitive programs had taken more than the minimum pre-med requirements, even if they weren't getting degrees in the sciences. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but unless you have something else on your application that makes you stand out from the rest, you probably don't want to be in a pool of 5,000+ applications with only the bare minimum.
 
fastfingers said:
Has anybody had any luck getting accepted into top tier med school without taking biochem, genetics, cell bio or any upper level bio/chem class? My major isn't directly science and since I want to acquire a business minor, I wouldn't have space for those classes. I know a lot of top tier recommend those classes, so do people still think I have a shot without those classes? Can anybody speak from personal experience?
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Several of my friends (and I to an extent) had tons of success without these classes. I was accepted to a top tier school (but won't be attending) without upper level classes. I was a bio minor - which required intro bio and labs and 3 other classes of my choice. I took microbio, neurobio, and infectious disease.

Beware though, a few schools (especially in Fl) require biochem. None of the schools I applied to required it though. If you have a question, check out the MSAR.
 
wontonman86 said:
From my understanding, acceptance into MD/MBA is nearly automatic,
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Yeah, because there are so few people interested. These people already have the necessary background as well (stats, accounting, econ). If you don't have those classes under your belt and you're interested in an MBA - not only will you NOT get accepted, but you would have ZERO idea of what your instructors were talking about.

Most top-tier MBA programs require working experience (2+ years), and acceptance into an MD/MBA program has the same requirements. People simply don't apply if they don't meet them. Keep this in mind!
 
Most of the MD/MBA programs that I have looked into required a seperate application to the business school. They ALL required the GMAT in ADDITION to the MCAT and admissions personnel from these schools have all added that the admission process is completely seperate and there is no preference for MD/MBA applicants nor is the process any easier for them. However, assuming your numbers are high enough to get into their medical school I would imagine you would be extremely competitive for their business school as well. The only thing that turns me off about this is having to take the GMAT, I do not feel like studying for the GMAT after busting my balls for the MCAT.

As for getting into top tiers without upper level sciences, I don't think thats such a clear cut thing. Personally, I feel that if you do extremely well in your science pre-reqs and kill the MCAT it won't matter if you don't have any upper levels. That is considering you have a high overall GPA, extra-curriculars and all of that other unique and diverse things those schools tend to look for. At the end of the day the students that get into the top tiers are the ones that stand out and I don't think taking upper levels is really going to make you stand out so-to-say. However, for students that are less than perfect in their premed prereqs in might be beneficial to take upper levels just to prove you can handle the science curriculum but if your doing well than don't worry about it. Do things that well make you stand out in other ways.
 
nabeel76 said:
As for getting into top tiers without upper level sciences, I don't think thats such a clear cut thing. Personally, I feel that if you do extremely well in your science pre-reqs and kill the MCAT it won't matter if you don't have any upper levels. That is considering you have a high overall GPA, extra-curriculars and all of that other unique and diverse things those schools tend to look for. At the end of the day the students that get into the top tiers are the ones that stand out and I don't think taking upper levels is really going to make you stand out so-to-say. However, for students that are less than perfect in their premed prereqs in might be beneficial to take upper levels just to prove you can handle the science curriculum but if your doing well than don't worry about it. Do things that well make you stand out in other ways.
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I think this is a pretty good summary. I had 2-3 upper div bio courses, but none of the "essentials" that the OP mentioned, and I got into some "top tier" schools. I feel like my app probably stood out in other ways though due to some unique ECs and a coherent narrative. It is my impression that if you are non-traditional any way, the process is more hit or miss because people will read your app differently at different schools.

:luck: Good luck - there is no one way to do this process!
 
It's that you took upper-levels, not which ones, unless there is a required upperlevel.
 
Hmm, well it boils down to 2 things.

1. Take biochem. This means that my next semester will be mainly occupied by biochem. Which also mean I'll have less time studying for strictly MCAT. If I don't take biochem, I'll be taking an MCAT course and will probably study a lot of MCAT. It also mean I'll probably drop my minor. On top of that, I may get a B on biochem (my current bcpm is 4.0 at a top tier undergrad and my memory isn't the best).

2. Don't take biochem and take a bus class instead. This way, I'll take a mcat course. My gen bio and gen chem stuff is not too great, so I feel like I really need to relearn stuff. I almost feel like if I don't take biochem and focus more on MCAT, my chances of going to med school is higher (although not necessary top tier) because my MCAT should be higher with more practice. However, by not taking biochem, I won't be able to cruise through the biochem section of the MCAT. I also won't have any upper level science courses other than my prereqs (mainly just upper level sociology courses).

What do people think based on my pros and cons?
 
What do people think based on my pros and cons?
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The question is: for the schools you want to apply to is biochem a requirement or just a suggestion? There are schools that just flat out won't admit you without biochem, and say so on their website. Check against the list of schools you want to apply to.

Advice: biochem or not, you want to take the formal MCAT review course.
 
fastfingers said:
Hmm, well it boils down to 2 things.

1. Take biochem. This means that my next semester will be mainly occupied by biochem. Which also mean I'll have less time studying for strictly MCAT. If I don't take biochem, I'll be taking an MCAT course and will probably study a lot of MCAT. It also mean I'll probably drop my minor. On top of that, I may get a B on biochem (my current bcpm is 4.0 at a top tier undergrad and my memory isn't the best).

2. Don't take biochem and take a bus class instead. This way, I'll take a mcat course. My gen bio and gen chem stuff is not too great, so I feel like I really need to relearn stuff. I almost feel like if I don't take biochem and focus more on MCAT, my chances of going to med school is higher (although not necessary top tier) because my MCAT should be higher with more practice. However, by not taking biochem, I won't be able to cruise through the biochem section of the MCAT. I also won't have any upper level science courses other than my prereqs (mainly just upper level sociology courses).

What do people think based on my pros and cons?
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Don't feel like you have to take biochem - it's not a prereq at the vast majority of schools. Simply put - if you don't want to take it, then don't.
 
I think biochem is just recommended.

I wanted to take a course at the Fall, then study more during the Spring. Like I said, my introduction information is very weak I feel so I need extra learning.

I don't really want to take biochem as I feel more time spent on MCAT would ensure my acceptance into med school. However, I also don't want to significantly lower my chance at a top tier med school.
 
You might want to check some schools to see if they do want biochem. IMMSMC during the last cycle about 1/3 of the schools I applied to required it.
 
fastfingers said:
I think biochem is just recommended.

I wanted to take a course at the Fall, then study more during the Spring. Like I said, my introduction information is very weak I feel so I need extra learning.

I don't really want to take biochem as I feel more time spent on MCAT would ensure my acceptance into med school. However, I also don't want to significantly lower my chance at a top tier med school.
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Not having biochem will NOT - repeat NOT - significantly lower your chances. UNLESS ITS REQUIRED, it probably won't affect your chances at all. Your time is better used improving your app (ECs...........) to make you stand out - top tiers have tons and tons and tons of people applying with high gpas and MCAT - have you done what it takes to make your app stand out?

However, having a lower MCAT (than you would have if you had taken the time to study instead of taken biochem) will definitely hurt your chances at ALL schools, not just top tiers. This seems like an easy choice to me...
 
drizzt3117 said:
good good, just busy with studying n what not. whats new and exciting?
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ugh, nothing unless you count that whole "university of maryland thinks it's a great idea to sanction porn showings on campus" debacle.

i'm super sad b/c i didn't get any peeps for easter this year.
 
AdmiralChz said:
Not having biochem will NOT - repeat NOT - significantly lower your chances. UNLESS ITS REQUIRED, it probably won't affect your chances at all. Your time is better used improving your app (ECs...........) to make you stand out - top tiers have tons and tons and tons of people applying with high gpas and MCAT - have you done what it takes to make your app stand out?

However, having a lower MCAT (than you would have if you had taken the time to study instead of taken biochem) will definitely hurt your chances at ALL schools, not just top tiers. This seems like an easy choice to me...
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Alright thanks.

I mean, schools that I want to apply for does not require biochem, but they do all recommend (with some saying strongly recommend). This makes it a little harder for me to decide since I'm not sure how much emphasis they put on their recommendation. But lets say I wanted to go to Harvard, JHU, yale, stanford, columbia. There's a lot of recommendation, but no real requirement.
 
jurassicpark said:
ugh, nothing unless you count that whole "university of maryland thinks it's a great idea to sanction porn showings on campus" debacle.

i'm super sad b/c i didn't get any peeps for easter this year.
Click to expand...

porn? 😱

that sucks about easter... 🙁
 
fastfingers said:
Alright thanks.

I mean, schools that I want to apply for does not require biochem, but they do all recommend (with some saying strongly recommend). This makes it a little harder for me to decide since I'm not sure how much emphasis they put on their recommendation. But lets say I wanted to go to Harvard, JHU, yale, stanford, columbia. There's a lot of recommendation, but no real requirement.
Click to expand...

punks. trying to steal my thread?
 
well, back to my post.

say my ultimate goal is to get into harvard, yale, columbia, jhu or stanford. If you were me, would you take biochem?
 
fastfingers said:
well, back to my post.

say my ultimate goal is to get into harvard, yale, columbia, jhu or stanford. If you were me, would you take biochem?
Click to expand...

In your shoes, I didn't. But it depends on the rest of your application, so it will be hard for anyone to give you a definitive answer without also hearing your numbers, ecs, life story, etc. And maybe I would have done better at those schools with biochem, though I doubt it. (I applied to 3 of the schools you just listed, and of those 3 got 2 interviews which led to 1 acceptance and 1 wait list).

Don't underestimate the amount of time you will need to prep for the mcat - i would put that way above a business minor in reaching your goal.

And classes can always be taken post-mcat.
 
Oh, it's interesting to hear somebody who was in the same situation.

During your interview, did they ever mention why you didn't take essentials(you did however take 3 upper-level bio). I mean, right now I'm holding on to a new 4.0 gpa at a top tier (and well known for grade deflation) undergrad. I have most of my premed EC (volunteer, research, clinical experience), but not too heavy on club activities. I feel like if I don't take biochem, I could really focus on hacking at that MCAT and get a solid score.
 
fastfingers said:
well, back to my post.

say my ultimate goal is to get into harvard, yale, columbia, jhu or stanford. If you were me, would you take biochem?
Click to expand...

Interview at 2, accepted at 1. Biochem never came up in the interview.

And yeah, if you really want to you can always take it next year. Choose your battles.
 
Thanks for all the advices and input.

I think I'll end up not taking biochem my junior year (or any upper level science), take MCAT, apply, and then take biochem my senior year at the grad school.

edit:
should i also note on my app that i'll be taking genetics and cell bio the summer after senior year? Would that increase my chances of being accepted?
 
fastfingers said:
Thanks for all the advices and input.

I think I'll end up not taking biochem my junior year (or any upper level science), take MCAT, apply, and then take biochem my senior year at the grad school.

edit:
should i also note on my app that i'll be taking genetics and cell bio the summer after senior year? Would that increase my chances of being accepted?
Click to expand...

Yeah, no one asked about a specific science class at the interview (though I had many questions about random other classes I took). I think by the time you are interviewing they are focusing on whether or not you are empathetic, good on your feet, etc.

And you can indicate on AMCAS what classes you intend to take in the future. Maybe some schools will see your GPA as less meaningful without it, but my guess is that your GPA is high enough that that doesn't matter. If you had a 3.5 with no upper division that might be more of an issue.

Remember, no one spends that long reviewing your application. Many schools don't even check on the required classes (beyond the baseline) until you matriculate, so your plan of putting off the upper division classes to focus on the MCAT will serve you well. 👍
 
Perrotfish said:
The question is: for the schools you want to apply to is biochem a requirement or just a suggestion? There are schools that just flat out won't admit you without biochem, and say so on their website. Check against the list of schools you want to apply to.

Advice: biochem or not, you want to take the formal MCAT review course.
Click to expand...


Can't you take biochem and other classes like genetics and cell bio during your senior year? Or do they have to see what you earned in those classes- so you have to take it before your senior year (before you apply)?
 
here's also an interesting situation i'm in. Since a med school I know requires genetics, I feel like I should take genetics. However, a prereq for genetics is biochem and I won't be taking biochem until my senior year. can i just tell that school that I'm planning to take genetics the summer before med school? or can i still apply without noting intentions of taking genetics, but the med school would automatically force me to take genetics or else my admission is revoked.
 
I took genetics only (no biochem or other upperdiv stuff at time of application) and got into some pretty decent schools. You should have no issue!
 
thegetupkid said:
I took genetics only (no biochem or other upperdiv stuff at time of application) and got into some pretty decent schools. You should have no issue!
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Do you think not taking upperdiv science played a factor in ur acceptance? I'm looking at your profile and you definitely had some superior stats (4.0 with 39 mcat is pretty ridiculous), but you did miss some admission into a top 5. I know your acceptance is extremely impressive, but during interview, did a upper div science come up?
 
This thread is relevant to my interest.

I will have taken biochem and cell bio before I apply. I have a semester left, but I don't know if I should take genetics, since it is just a hassle to fit it into my schedule.
 
thegetupkid said:
I took genetics only (no biochem or other upperdiv stuff at time of application) and got into some pretty decent schools. You should have no issue!
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I highly doubt it had to do with biochem, etc. You do have great stats, but seem to lack extensive (I noted some) research. My impression was that top 10 schools really like research applicants, was this brought up at all?
 
It's still been a hard decision for me since almost all students in SDN seem to have taken an upper level science course prior to applying to med school. Is there any nonscience majors who took no science classes other than the prereqs prior to applying?
 
fastfingers said:
Has anybody had any luck getting accepted into top tier med school without taking biochem, genetics, cell bio or any upper level bio/chem class? My major isn't directly science and since I want to acquire a business minor, I wouldn't have space for those classes. I know a lot of top tier recommend those classes, so do people still think I have a shot without those classes? Can anybody speak from personal experience?
Click to expand...

You only need the prereqs (whatever prereqs those schools list). That's it. non-sci folks get into top schools with minimal science with good regularity. The days when med schools prized lots of upper level science/medical type courses ended in the early 80s when it was determined that the bio major physicians weren't satisfying patient needs (and subsequent to that schools began increased efforts to increase enrollment of non-sci majors, nontrads, women, etc, in an effort to reshape the typical physician into the desired mold). So no don't kid yourself that schools are holding out for genetics, or other things beyond those things listed as prereqs (which only includes biochem at a minority of schools). There are lots of sci majors on SDN who think that what they did is the right path, but in fact the trend has been getting further and further away from this over the past decade+.

Now being a science major won't hurt you, but taking too many at the expense of other things can get you a rep for not being well rounded.
 
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