Accepted in Chinese MBBS program, in top 10 USNews School. Go or not?

[greystone]

So my best friend is going to a USNews ranked national top 10 school and just finished his first year, but is only getting a GPA of about 3.2. The school is also might expensive $40k for just tuition and then room and board. Being super anxious, he tried applying to a Chinese med school (MBBS) 6 year program and got in due to HS grades. China (and India) have a British-educational model and combine both undergrad and med school into 6 yrs. The cost is only $5k/yr and is a pretty big school (T5-10 for MBBS) and he intends to transfer a even better national school a year later.

I think it is a bad idea. Besides the current cost, competitiveness, and grades, I said that this would limit residency opportunities, specialty opportunities and would be giving up a degree from a T10 university. However, I was informed that many with MBBS degrees do well in the US and apparently some director at a large academic hospital in some big city in his state has this degree. However, I am to unfamiliar with the medical field to really understand.

Help pls.

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[deleted127837]

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[Davidasaurus]

...it's your friend's choice. He can weigh the options and go or not go. If a bunch of people on an online forum saying "no don't go we think this!" would convince him not to do it, then obviously he shouldn't go.

^ This.

And needless to say, I doubt very many people on these boards really know the pros and cons pertaining to your friends predicament.

 

[Propylene]

^ This.

And needless to say, I doubt very many people on these boards really know the pros and cons pertaining to your friends predicament.

Haha I agree, I've never seen a question like this before.

Personally, I wouldn't throw in the towel because of a 3.2. People have recovered from far worse and I think that adcoms would be understanding of someone who took a little extra time to adjust to college.

 

[RecycleRinsed]

So my best friend is going to a USNews ranked national top 10 school and just finished his first year, but is only getting a GPA of about 3.2. The school is also might expensive $40k for just tuition and then room and board. Being super anxious, he tried applying to a Chinese med school (MBBS) 6 year program and got in due to HS grades. China (and India) have a British-educational model and combine both undergrad and med school into 6 yrs. The cost is only $5k/yr and is a pretty big school (T5-10 for MBBS) and he intends to transfer a even better national school a year later.

I think it is a bad idea. Besides the current cost, competitiveness, and grades, I said that this would limit residency opportunities, specialty opportunities and would be giving up a degree from a T10 university. However, I was informed that many with MBBS degrees do well in the US and apparently some director at a large academic hospital in some big city in his state has this degree. However, I am to unfamiliar with the medical field to really understand.

Help pls.

Considering s/he will almost certainly get lung cancer from living in Chinese city f or 6 years, I say go the Carib. route. Is this person an American citizen?

 

[neoevolution]

How are Chinese schools seen relative to Carib and also Canadian/Euro? What exactly is their reputation like? I have a lot of family with Indian medical degrees, some of them really struggled to pass the boards and match into IM, but they also had a language barrier issue and weren't from the US

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Caribbean schools have an advantage because the only ones worth considering have some clinical rotation opportunities in the US. Other foreign MD schools don't have this, so they can't network with US residencies. That said, even the big three Caribbean schools only match something like 50% of students to US residencies. Your friend would be taking a HUGE risk going to a Chinese medical school if he wants to practice in the US. It is only getting more difficult for FMGs to match US residencies.

 

[RecycleRinsed]

How are Chinese schools seen relative to Carib and also Canadian/Euro? What exactly is their reputation like? I have a lot of family with Indian medical degrees, some of them really struggled to pass the boards and match into IM, but they also had a language barrier issue and weren't from the US

Indian medical education is in English. They teach Western medicine due to that whole British Empire thing.

Some Chinese schools (BeiDa, Qinghua, etc) might have Western medicine medical education tracks in addition to Chinese medicine, but this does not put you in the running for a US residency position as an international medical graduate. I've never heard of an IMG from China coming straight out of school into residency (as might be the case from Spain, say). Language and educational barriers are just too steep.

 

[gettheleadout]

IMG status is IMG status. Don't get your medical education outside the US unless you want to practice outside the US (because you almost certainly will end up forced to do so.)

 

[greystone]

The guy is born and raised American. Looking at the school, it appears that they have 6 years of English instruction with Chinese language instruction. The last year is when they do rotations and are expected to be fluent enough to speak with Chinese patients and are expected to pass some Chinese language exam.

There is a cost issue of course, which I think he is being pressured by his parents to find a cheaper alternative (though I am sure his family can afford it w/o finaid). There's also the huge pressure that China is a big and upcoming new world force. Also, I understand those Caribbean schools are US-geared and decent, but are revenue-oriented. They also don't appear on any world T400 university rankings unlike some Chinese schools.

To me, it is a simple solution. No. But this is a difficult question to back up. If it was such a good route, there would be far more people from the US choosing that route and far more MBBS degree holders practicing in America.

Edit: To clarify, there courses appear to be taught in English and the program seems to be geared to foreigners only. I don't think locals can apply. The only courses with Chinese seem to just teach the Chinese language.

 

[RecycleRinsed]

The guy is born and raised American. Looking at the school, it appears that they have 6 years of English instruction with Chinese language instruction. The last year is when they do rotations and are expected to be fluent enough to speak with Chinese patients and are expected to pass some Chinese language exam.

There is a cost issue of course, which I think he is being pressured by his parents to find a cheaper alternative (though I am sure his family can afford it w/o finaid). There's also the huge pressure that China is a big and upcoming new world force. Also, I understand those Caribbean schools are US-geared and decent, but are revenue-oriented. They also don't appear on any world T400 university rankings unlike some Chinese schools.

To me, it is a simple solution. No. But this is a difficult question to back up. If it was such a good route, there would be far more people from the US choosing that route and far more MBBS degree holders practicing in America.

Not so fast oN that world force malarky....http://behindthewall.msnbc.msn.com/...a-reports-slowest-growth-rate-in-3-years?lite

Why doesn't he just bear down and squeeze out a respectable GPA? Best option.

 

[robertch8]

First of all, I think your friend should try to tough it out; he can easily recover from a 3.2 GPA at the top 10 school but "recovering" from going to China is going to take many years, many of them end up either going the research route or have to repeat their residency. Secondly, if your friend is concerned about finances, he should look to transfer to a state school where the tuition will be a lot cheaper and classes might be easier for his GPA.

 

[crose1023]

He only just finished his first year with a 3.2? Dear God, he still has 3 years to pick it up, maybe even stay for a 5th year if really needed or do an SMP. But honestly, if he gets 4.0s from here on, he should be golden, with stellar ECs, LORs, research and MCATs. 3 years to do all that? Plenty of time. He needs to relax.

When it comes to my medical education, money is the last thing I'm worrying about. I know I'm going to be up to my shoulders in debt probably for the rest of my life, but being a doctor is my dream. If it's his too, he should look past the money issue.

 

[Starlightembers]

MBBS holders do practice in the United States, just as Caribbean MD holders practice in the US. Some of them, in fact, end up being quite successful, such as the physician you mentioned. That does not, however, make it a good option. Not even close.

Here are a few things to consider:

a) Most MBBS holders were natives to the country they received their degree in. Thus, they faced no stigma about going overseas to receive a degree as admissions was easier. Your friend will not have this luxury and he will have to answer for himself.

b) Even then, those MBBS holders, in most circumstances, struggle. They tend to be the best of the best of their country as, to make themselves competitive in the match, they have to have [typically] above average step scores, excellent LORs, above average grades, quality research experiences [often in the US, to form connections] and, hopefully, some US clinical experience. While some come to the US right after graduating, many take years to prepare a successful match application.

c) They struggle because US residencies prefer and prioritize US graduates in essentially any circumstance. Many do not accept overseas graduates at all, screening them out pre-interview. Most others hold them to a higher standard than US graduates, resulting in point b. In other words, to be considered at all as an FMG in most specialties, you have to stand out.

d) Many specialties will be off-limits or much more difficult than they otherwise would be. While your friend may claim now that his passion is peds, meds, psych, family med, etc, there is no way of truly predicting where he will be interested in come the end of his program and, if he falls in love with radiology, rad onc or the like, he's out of luck.

e) Contrast that with a US graduate, where the vast majority of students will match, even the "average ones". Where one will not be screened out by nature of their degree. Where one will be the priority. Where a bad grade or two does not lock one out a job.

f) 3.2 at Freshman year's end is not bad at all. He still has 3 years to bring in it up to the >3.6 range and, if he chooses to sit down and commit himself, likely will.

 

[Hemorrage]

tell him to go, we'll have one less idiot to worry about getting a seat by luck.

 

[Luvahgilahsa]

Wouldn't the curriculum be in Chinese? Or do they teach in English?
I find learning anything academic in Chinese excruciatingly painful. I also think it'll also be impossible to take the USMILE if you learned the terms in Chinese... I dun even know all the organs in Chinese other than the major ones like brain and stomach.
My dad went to Xi'an Fourth Military Medical University back in the late 70's-early 80's. It was free, gave you stipend, and it was only 5 years! 😀
Now he's a doctor in the US, and most of his classmates that are in the US now are doctors as well. I dun think it matters a whole lot, but who knows, it might have been easier when he applied for residency.

 

[futronius]

Wouldn't the curriculum be in Chinese? Or do they teach in English?
I find learning anything academic in Chinese excruciatingly painful. I also think it'll also be impossible to take the USMILE if you learned the terms in Chinese... I dun even know all the organs in Chinese other than the major ones like brain and stomach.
My dad went to Xi'an Fourth Military Medical University back in the late 70's-early 80's. It was free, gave you stipend, and it was only 5 years! 😀
Now he's a doctor in the US, and most of his classmates that are in the US now are doctors as well. I dun think it matters a whole lot, but who knows, it might have been easier when he applied for residency.

Uhh, no. Please don't make the system as it existed back then sound like some kind of shangri-la for medical students. If your dad went to medical school in China in the late 70's then he was probably among the first cohorts allowed to even take the college entrance examinations after the cultural revolution nearly rendered an entire generation of young people into know-nothing clodhoppers. Most people who were sent to work in the fields as part of Mao's "great initiative" never recovered their hukou (residency status) and they, along with their descendants, became permanent farmers. Unless your dad was a high-ranking cadre of the CPC politburo, he probably busted his ass to test into medical school so that you wouldn't have to endure a lifetime of planting soybeans. And getting a US residency spot as a Chinese medical graduate was not a simple task by any measure. In fact, most chinese medical graduates of the time who emigrated to the US did NOT pursue residencies here because of the language barrier.

Also, five or six years is not enough to become fluent in written Chinese. If you think doctors' handwritten notes are illegible in the US, wait till you see an H&P written in shorthand Chinese (no, there are no EMRs except in the expat hospitals, but that's a different issue). Bottom line, don't go this route unless your goal is to practice somewhere in the sinosphere.

 

[gatorade848]

i had a near 3.2 AFTER 4 years of college and I still managed to get into 2 us MD schools on my first try, not a URM. he is fine... just study hard and get his gpa up

 

[Hemorrage]

i had a near 3.2 AFTER 4 years of college and I still managed to get into 2 us MD schools on my first try, not a URM. he is fine... just study hard and get his gpa up

how?? 😕

 

[Luvahgilahsa]

Uhh, no. Please don't make the system as it existed back then sound like some kind of shangri-la for medical students. If your dad went to medical school in China in the late 70's then he was probably among the first cohorts allowed to even take the college entrance examinations after the cultural revolution nearly rendered an entire generation of young people into know-nothing clodhoppers. Most people who were sent to work in the fields as part of Mao's "great initiative" never recovered their hukou (residency status) and they, along with their descendants, became permanent farmers. Unless your dad was a high-ranking cadre of the CPC politburo, he probably busted his ass to test into medical school so that you wouldn't have to endure a lifetime of planting soybeans. And getting a US residency spot as a Chinese medical graduate was not a simple task by any measure. In fact, most chinese medical graduates of the time who emigrated to the US did NOT pursue residencies here because of the language barrier.

Also, five or six years is not enough to become fluent in written Chinese. If you think doctors' handwritten notes are illegible in the US, wait till you see an H&P written in shorthand Chinese (no, there are no EMRs except in the expat hospitals, but that's a different issue). Bottom line, don't go this route unless your goal is to practice somewhere in the sinosphere.

haha I'm not saying it was easy to get into the med school back then, I'm just saying it's interesting how different these top ranked medical schools were back in the days. By no means am I praising the Chinese political/educational system. My family didn't have any communist political ties, but we never got to farm either. My great grandfather owned a textile factory in the beginning of the century. When the communist took over, they confiscated his factory and house for the good of the people, but he lost his company as well as his home. The government gave my great grandparents 40 yuan a month for their "contribution". Because the family was so poor, my grandparents volunteered to be engineers in Xinjiang after graduation because they get paid a lot more than Zhejiang. My dad was actually one of the few people that tested out of the Xinjiang province at the time. I know it is a very difficult exam, so I'm not doubting the abilities of the people that became doctors at the time.

However, I'm saying even my dad passed his USMILE and received residency in the US with his broken english. He was also almost 40 at the time with a full time job and a family to support. If your friend is raised in America, it is certainly more possible for him to get a residency in the US after he graduates.

 

[greystone]

MBBS holders do practice in the United States, just as Caribbean MD holders practice in the US. Some of them, in fact, end up being quite successful, such as the physician you mentioned. That does not, however, make it a good option. Not even close.

Here are a few things to consider:

a) Most MBBS holders were natives to the country they received their degree in. Thus, they faced no stigma about going overseas to receive a degree as admissions was easier. Your friend will not have this luxury and he will have to answer for himself.

b) Even then, those MBBS holders, in most circumstances, struggle. They tend to be the best of the best of their country as, to make themselves competitive in the match, they have to have [typically] above average step scores, excellent LORs, above average grades, quality research experiences [often in the US, to form connections] and, hopefully, some US clinical experience. While some come to the US right after graduating, many take years to prepare a successful match application.

c) They struggle because US residencies prefer and prioritize US graduates in essentially any circumstance. Many do not accept overseas graduates at all, screening them out pre-interview. Most others hold them to a higher standard than US graduates, resulting in point b. In other words, to be considered at all as an FMG in most specialties, you have to stand out.

d) Many specialties will be off-limits or much more difficult than they otherwise would be. While your friend may claim now that his passion is peds, meds, psych, family med, etc, there is no way of truly predicting where he will be interested in come the end of his program and, if he falls in love with radiology, rad onc or the like, he's out of luck.

e) Contrast that with a US graduate, where the vast majority of students will match, even the "average ones". Where one will not be screened out by nature of their degree. Where one will be the priority. Where a bad grade or two does not lock one out a job.

f) 3.2 at Freshman year's end is not bad at all. He still has 3 years to bring in it up to the >3.6 range and, if he chooses to sit down and commit himself, likely will.

Thanks. This is interesting and good ammunition for me. I think the idea of saving money ($5k tuition, $7k w/ expenses * 6yrs for $42k total vs. $40k+ tuition, $65k+ w/ expenses * 7 for ~$450k-$500k) and time (his roommate would just finish M2 when he's done) is really enticing when you don't know the realities like this. Ultimately if cost was really the issue, then Georgia Tech is an excellent alternative. However, that reason is likely just hiding the true reason which I suspect is just anxiety as the guy is not getting finaid.

One question is that for the specialties that are "barred," are there no alternative locations like rural N. Dakota, rural Kansas or Alaska that has this position right?

 

[gatorade848]

how?? 😕

extremely upward gpa trend (ex 3.8, 4.0 with lots of upper level bio), good mcat, very unique personal essay, excellent recs, excellent secondary essay responses, friendly instate schools, fully explained why I am "perfect fit" for my state school, nailed the interview; basically other than my gpa, I made sure my app was near perfect

 

[Starlightembers]

Thanks. This is interesting and good ammunition for me. I think the idea of saving money ($5k tuition, $7k w/ expenses * 6yrs for $42k total vs. $40k+ tuition, $65k+ w/ expenses * 7 for ~$450k-$500k) and time (his roommate would just finish M2 when he's done) is really enticing when you don't know the realities like this. Ultimately if cost was really the issue, then Georgia Tech is an excellent alternative. However, that reason is likely just hiding the true reason which I suspect is just anxiety as the guy is not getting finaid.

Exactly. 7k a year in tuition and saved time sounds fantastic on paper; however, in reality, it is a much more difficult road and, ironically, if it works at all, may be more expensive and take longer when you count in all the hoops he would have to jump through. Another note he may want to consider: US schools teach you to pass the Steps; the curriculum is meant to prepare you. A Chinese school, on the other hand, will not do this and, as such, taking time off JUST to study for Steps 1, 2 and 3 -- in addition to all of that other stuff -- is likely.

If finances are a true concern, as you noted, there are good, cheap schools all over the country. He could go there.

And, while he has a right to be concerned about his grades, he is a freshman. A lot of people have subpar freshman years. It's normal.

One question is that for the specialties that are "barred," are there no alternative locations like rural N. Dakota, rural Kansas or Alaska that has this position right?

This goes back to the fact that US residencies prioritize US graduates. For the most competitive specialties, US students just want to match somewhere -- even if that means Kansas. Why should they pick an international graduate when they have their pick of US students?

 

[TJM329]

f) 3.2 at Freshman year's end is not bad at all. He still has 3 years to bring in it up to the >3.6 range and, if he chooses to sit down and commit himself, likely will.

This. Hell, I had a 2.89 GPA after freshman year of college. Long story short, I was accepted to 7 or 8 MD schools, graduated medical school Magna cum laude, was AOA, >260+ Step I/II, matched #1 Derm program.

Not trying to beat my chest here or anything, just want to say that bailing after one year is ridiculous.

 

[MusicJunkie]

I think that your friend is in a hurry to grow up. He needs to keep things in perspective. AdCom members were in college once. They understand that there is an adjustment period when transitioning from high school into college. Your friend needs to focus on exhibiting a strong upward trend, garnering excellent ECs, and doing well on the MCAT. If he can do all of these things from this point forward, then he has a good shot of getting into medical school.

And really, he's an incoming sophomore in college. There is a chance that he may discover that his first love is actually music and what he really wants to do with the rest of his life is become a rockstar. Stranger things have happened. 😉

 

[TheMightySmiter]

However, I'm saying even my dad passed his USMILE and received residency in the US with his broken english. He was also almost 40 at the time with a full time job and a family to support. If your friend is raised in America, it is certainly more possible for him to get a residency in the US after he graduates.

This was back in the 70s. A lot has changed since then. You will find many older docs who got their medical degrees abroad; but look for young docs who were FMGs now practicing in the States and you will find a lot fewer. In the last few years, eleven new MD schools in the US have opened their doors. There are seven more attempting preliminary accreditation. Think of how many more fourth year MD students there will be to compete with when this guy finishes his MBBS. You cannot say that since your dad was a successful FMG thirty years ago, this guy will be fine now.

 

[Ser Demetrius]

So my best friend is going to a USNews ranked national top 10 school and just finished his first year, but is only getting a GPA of about 3.2. The school is also might expensive $40k for just tuition and then room and board. Being super anxious, he tried applying to a Chinese med school (MBBS) 6 year program and got in due to HS grades. China (and India) have a British-educational model and combine both undergrad and med school into 6 yrs. The cost is only $5k/yr and is a pretty big school (T5-10 for MBBS) and he intends to transfer a even better national school a year later.

I think it is a bad idea. Besides the current cost, competitiveness, and grades, I said that this would limit residency opportunities, specialty opportunities and would be giving up a degree from a T10 university. However, I was informed that many with MBBS degrees do well in the US and apparently some director at a large academic hospital in some big city in his state has this degree. However, I am to unfamiliar with the medical field to really understand.

Help pls.

horrible idea

 

[Luvahgilahsa]

This was back in the 70s. A lot has changed since then. You will find many older docs who got their medical degrees abroad; but look for young docs who were FMGs now practicing in the States and you will find a lot fewer. In the last few years, eleven new MD schools in the US have opened their doors. There are seven more attempting preliminary accreditation. Think of how many more fourth year MD students there will be to compete with when this guy finishes his MBBS. You cannot say that since your dad was a successful FMG thirty years ago, this guy will be fine now.

My dad actually got his residency in the US in the late 90's after he came over to the US. Before that He practiced in China. But I know what you're saying. I totally agree it is hard, but it is possible. Not easy, but certainly possible.

 

[munchymanRX]

So my best friend is going to a USNews ranked national top 10 school and just finished his first year, but is only getting a GPA of about 3.2. The school is also might expensive $40k for just tuition and then room and board. Being super anxious, he tried applying to a Chinese med school (MBBS) 6 year program and got in due to HS grades. China (and India) have a British-educational model and combine both undergrad and med school into 6 yrs. The cost is only $5k/yr and is a pretty big school (T5-10 for MBBS) and he intends to transfer a even better national school a year later.

I think it is a bad idea. Besides the current cost, competitiveness, and grades, I said that this would limit residency opportunities, specialty opportunities and would be giving up a degree from a T10 university. However, I was informed that many with MBBS degrees do well in the US and apparently some director at a large academic hospital in some big city in his state has this degree. However, I am to unfamiliar with the medical field to really understand.

Help pls.

Tell him to apply to DO schools in the US. If is aim is to practice here, then for gods sake he should make the effort to stay in the country. The IMG route is harder in terms of obtaining a residency spot.