accepted urm's -- where did you get in and what are your stats?

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djipopo

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I'm applying this year and am curious to know where my fellow urm's have succeeded in being accepted to medical school. Did you apply to any historically black medical schools? If you don't mind posting them, what were your stats? Did you have any unusual interviews -- did anyone ask questions regarding your race/ethnicity and how it relates to medical school? Lastly, what did you think of the admissions process as a whole, compared with your majority counterparts?
 

djipopo

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just putting this back up again :(
 
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jmejia1

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I've posted similiar posts an another popular premed forum and didn't get any replies. The fact is that very few URMs enroll into medical, despite what anti-URM posters may believe. I think the vast majority of people on these sites are non-URM and that's why you'll proably get one or two replies if not any. I'm applying this year despite my very low VR score:
6VR 10PS 11BS and a 3.4+ gpa from a lower-tier state school. Numbers are only one part of your application. I'm guessing that essays play a very large role, so make sure you're happy with your essay.
 

lilycat

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Some schools (Yale and UCSD come to mind) will schedule you to meet with a URM faculty member during your interview, and give you opportunities to meet with representatives from URM student organizations.
 

synite

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no offense... URM or not, you probably didn't get any replies because no one likes to talk about stats, numbers, etc on this forum. but people will gladly discuss the more substantial aspects of med schools & the app process.
 

8deuce

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hey guys!

good luck to all the urm's applying but the fact is that there is a small amount of urms on this site or even applying. i will be applying next year but have a list of schools i will be trying to get into. let's try to keep the post going.

hey serendipity.... can you post your list of what schools you plan on applying to? also are you the same serendipity on the OPM site? thanks for your reply and good luck. i will be hopefully get some great info from you about this process. take care all! :cool:
 

Creolequeen

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I have been following these forums for a while, but I never felt moved enough to post until now. In MY opinion, as a URM(AA), the admissions process was very different for me as compared to some of my majority counterparts.
I applied to two historically "Black" medical schools, and 5 majority schools. These are my stats:
3.54 GPA(Chemistry Major); 13V 12P 12B S; two years of clinical research at a well-known academic research center; fluent in spanish,french,and Kreyol; high school and college cheerleader (2 yrs); eventually accepted at 4 majority schools and both minority schools.

The interviews at most of the majority schools were very unusual and, quite frankly, insulting. There were a lot of ethnic questions and statements, some of which could be interpreted as inappropriate given the speaker's tone. Here are some that I remember:

1) "How do you feel about the disparities of health care?"

2)"Do you feel Affirmative Action is fair to majority applicants at medical schools?"

"3)Why do you think there are so few African-American doctors and if we accept you how will you make a difference?"

4)"Do you think it will be difficult for you to excel in a class where you will undoubtly be a minority?(I attended a well-known HBCU in the AUC)

and, my all-time favorite,

5)"You have a very unique MCAT score for a
Black person, the admissions committee will perk up when they see this."

At the two minority medical schools the interviews were different. I was asked questions similiar to 1 and 3 but the tone and context in which they were asked was much different. I also felt that they were more interested in getting to know me as a person and not as a statistic. They were also extremely interested in my motives and morals given my cultural background. Therefore, I am currently attending a minority medical school and I could not be happier.

I want any non-believers to realize that what I experienced was not an isolated case and that I am not an exception to the "minority" rule. Unfortunately, there are just not enough of us out here in medical student world to speak out against such incidents without the fear of facing an early "retirement". I could go into the specifics on why our presence is woefully lacking and our stats are generally lower, but that would be another thread.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that the process is going to be different for a URM. If you are naive enough to think otherwise then that is your business. :p Again, in MY opinion, I think the major differences are that we are often asked atypical, uncomfortable questions and have a much harder time finding emotional support for this grueling process. I won't even go into the academic support issue. However, I must add that mentors can help but will never replace the comraderie of your peers. The members of SDN demonstrate this daily.

So, Serendipity, I hope I answered your questions adequately. If you have any more feel free to send me a private message.
 
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E'01

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Thank you for your insight!
 

jiffy boy

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Creolequeen
At the two minority medical schools the interviews were different. I was asked questions similiar to 1 and 3 but the tone and context in which they were asked was much different.

Are you sure it wasn't the color of their skin, not the tone and context, which bothered you? Is it difficult always being the victim?
 

Creolequeen

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Dear Jiffy boy,

First of all, I would like to applaud your honesty. Your chutzpah is quite refreshing. The sentiment about my interviewer's statements had nothing to do with their "packaging". To quote my marraine, "You don't have to be an equestrian to recognize horse s**t." Similarly, I've been around the block enough times to recognize an insulting comment when I hear it.

While I do admit that some people abuse the victim role, that doesn't mean it never happened or still continues to happen. To answer you question, it is very difficult to be the victim all the time. In fact, it gets very tiring. But, in order to be a survivor, you have to be a victim first. As a survivor, I feel obligated to let my fellow URMs know that they are not alone in this process. You, jiffy boy, have helped me to get that message across and I thank you.
 

djipopo

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WOW! Thank you creolequeen, this was just the type of reply that I was looking for. I have had a hard time trying to find honest and accurate information from and about URM's; simply because there are just so few of them -- and when someone does speak up, so many posters leap to flame them (as we have already seen here). :D anyway, i'm not giving up, i hope that a few more URM's respond to this thread, i know that i could definitely use this information to prepare myself and others for this ongoing process.

8deuce, yes, i am the infamous serendipity on the OPM website. i cannot recall all of the names of the schools that i will be applying to, so far i have a list of about 21 schools, including historically-black med schools. my selection criteria were based primarily on location, my residency status, in-state vs. out-of-state %'s, %'s of AA female applicants accepted, and avg grades and mcat scores of accepted students. i was looking forward to garnering information from this post to help with my selection, but i'm still holding my breath. i've enjoyed reading your posts 8deuce, keep it up ;)
 
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jiffy boy

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hey queenie and the rest,

You think you are dicriminated against. Try being an extremely obese person. It is hard for me to even get a job because I am considered lazy. Where is the help for me to get into medical school. I know the second the interviewers see me I will already be off their list. How many large medical students or doctors do you know? Discrimination crosses the boundaries of race. If you can't see that then you must have lived a sheltered life. I wish I could take the easy way out and play the "fat card". There are many overweight people in the U.S., but no doctors to represent them. Give me a piece of the fairness too. If it only applies to you, then you have become the same greedy power seekers you think your fighting against.
 

lilycat

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How have the last few comments been at all helpful in answering serendipity's original question?

This polarizing negativity is getting old...
 

Creolequeen

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drintraining,

OKAY. You want to go there, huh?

If you had read my post CORRECTLY, I stated the minority schools "were more interested in getting to know me as a person and not as a statistic" and "they were also extremely interested in my motives and morals given my cultural background." I did not say anything about the schools not thinking of me as a statistic. I'm going to address your question anyway though. Maybe you and your brethren can learn something.

All of my interviews were open file. For anyone that does not know what that means, it translates into your interviewer having everything you sent in to that school in front of her/him. At some schools, you leave the room while they look at your essays, grades, and scores; at some, they look at your essays, grades, and scores in front of you. Everyone viewed my file in front of me.

If one is perceptive, facial expressions tend to reveal what a person is thinking much more effectively than the spoken word. At the minority schools, both interviewers did not seem impressed. A lot of lower "ranked" schools, including majority ones, come across students who apply with pristine stats. Sometimes the school sees the application merely as a safety net--where the student will matriculate only if they are not accepted anywhere else. Minority schools, which are always "ranked" lowest, tend to ask introspective questions to avoid accepting too many people like this. In support of this argument, when my interviewers finished reviewing my file, I was then asked questions that had to do with how I saw the world and what I value most in life. In turn, they shared some very personal things about themselves with me. Which, in doing so, showed a genuine interest in what I had to say and in me as a person.

At the majority schools, some interviewers looked surprised and some were not impressed either. The actions/questions that followed were the key differences between my impressions of the two types of schools. In some cases, the interviewers started filling out their committee sheets in front of me. I would interject comments here and there to keep the mood light because you look very stupid if you stay silent during this part of the process. In the middle of scribbling they would say, "You have two semesters of biochemistry…good, two semesters of physical chemistry… excellent, an A in investment finance…impressive. They didn't ask me any specifics about my research or my extracurricular activities. It was just noted that I was a well-balanced candidate with a congenial personality (I am very nosey and with my contacts I have 20/10 vision).

Before someone else jumps on me, I do acknowledge that this situation could happen to anyone regardless of race. I, in particular, felt insulted because my interviewers then proceeded to ask ethnic sensitive questions in a sarcastic and condescending tone. For some, it seemed like a formality; for some, it seemed as though they were testing my ability to maintain a lady-like composure; for some, they were unquestionably just being themselves—ignorant and rude.


So… MY opinion of the application process is based on several details. Many of which are so minute that I don't have time to write about them all.

Now, I will answer your second question. Contrary to popular belief, it IS a tough dilemma to be regarded as a statistic. If one is waitlisted, you will be at a great disadvantage because a school will not have a personality to attach to those stats. Pristine stats get two feet in the door instead of just one. Nevertheless, your arse is still sticking out. If you go into any interview acting antisocial or even worse, cocky, you will be rejected. Period. You can forget about a waitlist. All pre-meds should know that wait listing is a strategy that med schools use in order to achieve a balance/range of personalities in the incoming class. Waitlist status is not necessarily a reflection of how the individual school views one's academic potential. If they don't think you can "hang" or have reservations about you, you will most likely be rejected outright.

Also, I have recently noticed at SDN that no one speaks about interview politics. I have heard that if the person who recommends you to be accepted doesn't hold that much weight or is overpowered, you will be waitlisted. Ask around if you think I'm joking. Therefore, people who tend to get off waitlists are the ones that show more than a casual interest in the school by making their presence known. If anyone is still on their dream school's waitlist, I suggest that you visit the admissions office and politic while you still have time. At my school, 3 people got off the waitlist like that in the final weeks before orientation. At a nearby majority school, 4 more. But, alas, I digress.

…Now for that low blow. You are playing the race card by asking me some dumb sh$t like that. I have never met a person who doesn't base their opinions on personal life experiences. I wonder do you even know how your URM "friends" really feel about YOU, let alone what they do in their private lives. Everyone is entitled to his/ her own damn opinion. Let's be clear---what and when I choose to post is based on mine. That's the point of a forum.

I'm not even going to entertain jiffy boy again.


Keep it movin' :rolleyes:
 

MoeDaMan

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WOW Creolequeen :D

VAT a response, ur so articulate... :D

U DA WOMAN Creolequeen! U DA Woman
 

Sheon

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The more things change the more things remain the same. :(

Before I applied to medical school two years ago, I spent about two years visiting TPR and the SDN for tidbits and advice on where to find information on the web.

Over those two years I accumulated a lot of links, sites, and information that most applicants never become aware of. I was always disappointed to find how little information was available about URMs. It was like an unwritten law that you didn't speak of these things. The subject was too polarizing; too divisive; too angry; too emotional.

For the year I applied I constantly put up posts about how things were going, where I applied, where I got in, where others could find information (etc). Eventually the negativity got to me and I stopped. I simply gave out my e-mail and replied to those who who had enough drive to e-mail.

I applied in 1999 with 3.5 GPA 3.79 SGPA, 3.5 Graduate GPA, and a triple 8 MCAT :oops: score which I was ashamed of at the time. I applied to 10 schools (JHU, Downstate, NYCOM, PCOM, Temple, Howard, Meharry, USUHS, Upstate, and Stony Brook). I choose those schools because based on the information I collected, they were the schools that were most likely to accept me (my state school, the HBUs, the military school, schools within the zone of what I had).

My heart was in Howard, Temple, and Downstate. Downstate was home, Temple was prety, and Howard was (in my mind) the mecca.

I got accepted to Howard, Meharry, Downstate, Temple, and NYCOM. I withdrew my application from the others. I choose Downstate because of the price and the family that lived nearby.

The admissions process was a difficult one. For the same reason that this subject is so intense. Everyone has strengths that they want the adcoms to see. Personality, academics, drive, cunning, the list goes on. Unfortunately, the adcoms have their own agenda and it may or may not include those things that are our strengths.

The bottom line of it all is that anyone with a decent GPA and average MCAT scores can get into medical school if they are sincere and cunning.

I said this over the years about a hundred times. If you don't make yourself stand out, you will be another statistic, and your chances for admissions are cast in stone.

If you stand out, you will give yourself a chance to expose them to your strengths and the world is yours.

I make it sound simple, but it isn't. However, I know non-URMs who have gotten in with lower stats than my own. They sold themselves well. You must do the same. Regardless of you race.

I hope that helps everyone.

:D :D :D
 

Emily1

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Thank all of you for your candor on this topic. If you can bear it, I have a question -- I am currently teaching MCAT prep/admissions strategies to a small group of URM students, and I am genuinely interested in helping them to promote themselves best for med schools. I really, really want these kids to get in, because they would all be kickass doctors. Some of their scores are not all that high, however. I feel strongly that their ethnicity IS a significant part of their applications, and that med schools need to work long & hard to recruit people of different races, but as several of you have mentioned, I also wonder about the possibility of feeling dehumanized by questions that imply that they are merely fulfilling a quota. Can you help me out here? To what extent should I encourage them to focus on their minority status -- knowing full well that this means that they may be "allowed" to have lower scores -- given that it might bring on those awfully insulting interview questions? I hope this isn't too confusing -- I really feel strongly about this issue, and I'm trying to do justice to the complexity of it. I agree that silence on the issue does no good at all -- just further perpetrates the difficulties facing URM applicants, since god knows there's plenty of info out there on how a white upper class Ivy grad can get into med school.
 

Doctor Wyldstyle

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Hey Creolequeen,

You are so right about the politics of admissions. I know of many people who had some significant pull by knowing influential people. Another key factor is who one interviewed with. If a person interviewed with let's say the Dean of Admissions and really hit it off, then he or she had a better chance of getting in than an individual with an identical resume interviewing with a relatively new faculty professor on the same day.

Anyways, I know what it's like to be prodded with sensitive questions. Growing up, I had been mistaken as a URM even though I am not a URM, but rather from another minority group not necessarily URMs. I guess you can say I've experienced a bit of what a URM may have felt. Unfortunately, I grew up in schools that were very ignorant and thus alien in many ways to me until high school and college where classes tended to be more diversified. When the time came to apply to medical schools, I got tired being labeled different races so I did not declare my ethnicity. I am not a URM as defined my AMCAS so naturally I did not declare myself one. Because of my last name, looks, and personal statement, many interviewers often ask intrusive questions in order to determine my race which I thought was irrelevant. I focused on my experiences and not my ethnicity in the interview. I felt violated when they would eventually ask me straight up what my ethnicity was especially since I did not declare myself as URM on my primary application. It was totally irrelevant. Anyways, you made some great points. I also wish people would be more concerned for the applicants for who they are than what they are. In fact, the school I chose seemed to do just that.

wyldstyle2000
 

freshity

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hi, emily1. sounds like a neat program you're doing. i thot i'd share my opinion on what ways you may go about helping these kids to highlight the aspects of their applications that will be most compelling to med schools. well, i think i just said it. as an urm, i tried to pull together the few things from my app that i thot would be most interesting about me to ad coms. one of them, quite frankly, is my race. no one among the pre-med committee at my college said this outright to me, nor did i need them to, as i'm well aware of how "interesting" my race can be to some people. it's just never a non-issue (in the truest sense), and it's not when it comes to med school either. so, something you might try with them is a discussion in which as a group (depending on how big it is) you talk about some key, overarching points to their applications that they'll want to emphasize. this is nice to do as a group sometimes so no one feels left out--but it also depends on how well they interact, the level of trust, etc. of course, they'll want to pad their app's with as good of numbers as they can muster (mcat and gpa), however, like all other applicants, they'll want to present to the committee the other things about themselves that may entice their appreciation of them as applicants. ALL applicants do this: those with awesome numbers can't stop talking about it, those who graduated high at an ivy league can't stop talking about it, those who published x in y journal can't stop talking about it, etc. sell, sell, sell! i think these kids should know how to talk about how their life experience will both make them great doctors/educators for their patients and add something significant to their class at any particular school. this, after all, is the theory behind recruiting more urm's.

you could also meet individually with them to help them outline these few things. i just think it's important that they use this to their advantage, as a blueprint for moving forward with confidence. after all (as i type with a huge grin), it's not often that we get to use this as an advantage or that people are really interested in us in a positive way for this reason. it's terribly bizarre, this society, but that's a whole other topic.

i don't think you need to address the negative aspects of what they'll encounter in this process. that is, the theory that they are less-deserving if their numbers aren't really high or the derisive comments they may get from people who don't even know them but assume they're undeserving simply because of their race. i don't think you need to address it beyond acknowledging the fact that these sentiments exist. i'm sure they're well aware of the culture of suspicion that sometimes hovers over minorities like a black cloud (no pun intended). they should, if anything, learn how to brush off those jabs stoically, and focus on what's real and important.

a final suggestion is to bring some urm classmates of yours (if you're in med school) or fairly new doctors to speak with them about this very topic. i think the "newer" they are to this process, they more insightful it will be for the students. they'll have insights galore, as well as presenting as role models of some sort, and if they're anything like most of the urm's i've met thru this process, they'll be more than happy to share what they've learned.

bottom line: bring the issue to the forefront in as much as you can while discussing the application process in general. make sure they understand that like all else, there are politics involved in this process, and ways to use those politics to your advantage. good luck!
 
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Rural

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Originally posted by Emily1:
•Thank all of you for your candor on this topic. If you can bear it, I have a question -- I am currently teaching MCAT prep/admissions strategies to a small group of URM students, and I am genuinely interested in helping them to promote themselves best for med schools. I really, really want these kids to get in, because they would all be kickass doctors. Some of their scores are not all that high, however. I feel strongly that their ethnicity IS a significant part of their applications, and that med schools need to work long & hard to recruit people of different races, but as several of you have mentioned, I also wonder about the possibility of feeling dehumanized by questions that imply that they are merely fulfilling a quota. Can you help me out here? To what extent should I encourage them to focus on their minority status -- knowing full well that this means that they may be "allowed" to have lower scores -- given that it might bring on those awfully insulting interview questions? I hope this isn't too confusing -- I really feel strongly about this issue, and I'm trying to do justice to the complexity of it. I agree that silence on the issue does no good at all -- just further perpetrates the difficulties facing URM applicants, since god knows there's plenty of info out there on how a white upper class Ivy grad can get into med school.•

 

Rural

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Originally posted by Emily1:
•Thank all of you for your candor on this topic. If you can bear it, I have a question -- I am currently teaching MCAT prep/admissions strategies to a small group of URM students, and I am genuinely interested in helping them to promote themselves best for med schools. I really, really want these kids to get in, because they would all be kickass doctors. Some of their scores are not all that high, however. I feel strongly that their ethnicity IS a significant part of their applications, and that med schools need to work long & hard to recruit people of different races, but as several of you have mentioned, I also wonder about the possibility of feeling dehumanized by questions that imply that they are merely fulfilling a quota. Can you help me out here? To what extent should I encourage them to focus on their minority status -- knowing full well that this means that they may be "allowed" to have lower scores -- given that it might bring on those awfully insulting interview questions? I hope this isn't too confusing -- I really feel strongly about this issue, and I'm trying to do justice to the complexity of it. I agree that silence on the issue does no good at all -- just further perpetrates the difficulties facing URM applicants, since god knows there's plenty of info out there on how a white upper class Ivy grad can get into med school.•

 

Rural

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Originally posted by Emily1:
[QB]Thank all of you for your candor on this topic. If you can bear it, I have a question -- I am currently teaching MCAT prep/admissions strategies to a small group of URM students, and I am genuinely interested in helping them to promote themselves best for med schools. I really, really want these kids to get in, because they would all be kickass doctors. Some of their scores are not all that high, however. I feel strongly that their ethnicity IS a significant part of their applications, and that med schools need to work long & hard to recruit people of different races""

That is one of the most ignorant posts I have read on this site. I'm sure this Emily is probably an elitist who goes to a top 5 or 10 med school. As a 2nd year med student who gained admission on his 3rd try I'm outraged that one should be given prefrence just b/c of RAce. I laugh when Emily points out that Race is a factor, REALLY Emily. What if you're indian, chinese, french then is race a factor or is it only if you're black. Emily what do you think of Indian immgrants who come here and their parents work 12 hours a day just at $8/hr just so they can get by. Do you think these people would make "kickass" doctors? Or the chinese immgrant who has to work 7 hours after school everyday in his parents restaurent so they can make a livin then goes hime and studies and speaks chinese at home. Is he or he going to be a "kickass" doctor. I think we should have some way to evaluate a person't background and take that into consideration when making a decesion about admission not just the color of their skin as AA is right now. There are special programs for minorites and their are self-rigteous overachivers like your self who have never lived in the real world or went to sleep not knowing when you were going to next who will always push this extreme agenda. People like you scare me, you're just as bad as Klan members in the 20's and 30's who decided who the "right" people were to vote and where these people could eat and live. In 1896 Plessy vs Fergusson said seperate but equal but we all know if seperate it can't really be equal. This of course was overturned by Brown in 1954. So don't you think that different standards for admissions is essentially supporting the Plessy case. I'm not a persons backround is not relavewnt but the most blacks who apply to med school are middle and upper-middle class. So you're 60's attitude is kind of a joke. I saw on 60 minutes that the Dean of Michigan law school said the discussion in calss abotu racial profiling and arrests for crack cocaine were better discussed in class if there were blacks in that class. My balck friends were offended. What and Why should a middle class black know anything more than any white about crack cocaine. I don't want replies saying I'm racist b/c that is just an easy way to dismiss the arugement, we als know just b/c a person supports abortion doesn't make him or her a murder. The sad thing is this Emily person will be my boss someday and stuff will nver change b/c Amercia can't get over the guilt of slavery..Emily I do hope you will read and defend your "childish" statements..
Thank You
 

djipopo

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I won't give up! I know that there's got to be at least one more URM that could give the rest of us some much needed information.

still holding out....

seren
 

Rural

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Originally posted by TweetyPie:
•BUmiken12,

URM means "Under Represented Minority"•

URM also means a person who doesn't work very hard but still gets in medical school. Then they argue that they will make great doctors. I don't think it matters that they will make great doctors. the ONLY reason they getin is b/c of their skin color. Ohters who are not the "right" color never get a chance to prove themelves b/c of these unqualified space fillers. Then they have Elitists like Emily on this board who will justify anything blacks do..Emily 70-80% African-ameriicans are born out of wedlock..Do you think they make "kckass" fathers or should just overlook that.....
 

Rhiana

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As an URM I found it disheartening to read some of the responses to this very simple question. The anger and self rightousness I hear in these posts makes me feel like an outsider to this community. Our goals should be to do what we can to help all those involved reach their dreams. Reading these makes me think that maybe I would be more welcomed at a "minority" school. Because some of the people here would make pooor classmates and most regrettably, poor doctors.
 

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Wow, I'm glad to hear that the interview process can be nasty and insulting for URM applicants. It can be nasty and insulting for crackers like me also. While I was going through it I had imagined that the ride was smooth and easy with kid gloves on for URMs and this annoyed me a little. (I am aware that it was not RIGHT for me to have felt that buy hey I'm being honest)

Knowing that you guys have to suffer some knocks at the interview stage makes me feel a little more like we are in the same boat.

Jiffey boy - you would do the world a favor by shutting your noisehole for good.

Creolequeene - you mentioned something about white med students not having a clue about what their black 'friends' do with their spare time or what they think about white students. What do 'they' (in general) think about us? I probably won't like the answer but I think I can take it.

By the way, my intention is not to antagonize. I used to be against AA but have warmed up to it. I think the only way to heal long standing social rifts is to force people of different backgrounds to work side by side.

I'm actually beginning to think that the US should push AA on subject nations that rely on us for support and protection. Israel, Ireland, and the Balkans are just a few places that could definately benifit from programs like this. What does anyone think about that?
 
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Dylann FMD

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Originally posted by Roger Moore:
•I'm actually beginning to think that the US should push AA on subject nations that rely on us for support and protection. Israel, Ireland, and the Balkans are just a few places that could definately benifit from programs like this. What does anyone think about that?•

I agree that AA would/could greatly help in these other countries. I was in Ireland recently (which does not exactly rely on our support as much as they others, but . . .), and I think they could definitely use some lessons on integration. Though the protestant/catholic is the most obvious conflict, there is also a number of refugees from Africa in Ireland. However, they treatment they receive is horrendous. Most of the time they are put in "camps" out in the middle of the country, where no resources are. They live in trailers, and have little opportunity to ever leave the lots. They get small stipends from the government, which is not enough to live by, and are basically barred from getting jobs and leaving the area. Though they are there seeking asylum, they are basically in prison-like camps. Though people complain about the US, and say we discriminate more than other countries, I think people tend to overlook this type of discrimination elsewhere. This is mainly because the US has a more diverse population, and have to address it. The whole time i was in ireland, I saw maybe 5 non-white people.

This is NOT to say I am against AA and other programs here. We maybe addressing the issue, but we certainly haven't solved it. Creolequeen and others: keep fighting. Sooner or later we might actually get through to Rural and the rest!
 
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Rural

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Originally posted by Rhiana:
•As an URM I found it disheartening to read some of the responses to this very simple question. The anger and self rightousness I hear in these posts makes me feel like an outsider to this community. Our goals should be to do what we can to help all those involved reach their dreams. Reading these makes me think that maybe I would be more welcomed at a "minority" school. Because some of the people here would make pooor classmates and most regrettably, poor doctors.•

Well that is an attitude of a very weak person who would probably not be a goo ddoctor. Please I ask that you do go to a minority school where you'll be around other people who don't deserve to be doctors but b/c of past actions ie.. slavery we must let them in. I like how blacks equate people who are against AA as to being racist. Do you know how truly awful that title is. Ask people who lived 100-150 years ago what it meant to live in a world full of racists. As a lower middle class student who busted his ass through every step of my education past I'm greatly offended a bunch of blacks are walked through this whole medschool processes. Why are there all these summer programs for minorties? Why can we all have the advantage of going to such programs. Why is the avg mcat at Howard, Mehary less than 24? Why is the avg gpa for blacks at every medical school much lower than whites and asians? Why must I go to a low tier med school while a black with my stats got into Yale? Yeah he must be so unique, my ass..

I was sent this private message by charity.
"You are a disgusting piece of work. Just because you are stupid and can't get into med school is no reason to assume no URMs are qualified. Until you can find something to substantiate your false wedlock statistic, do not post ridiculous untruths. You are ignorant and probably a bastard yourself which is why you are so mad."

Thank you charity for bein gso blunt. Again don't be upset at the truth. I didn't say no URM's are qualified but most are not. This is why AA is so harmful, it attaches a stigma to blacks which would not be there..Oh well that's life blacks will probably whine and bitch forever even though most blacks born after 1960 will never know what it is really like to live in a racist world..BTW I love the do gooder white people who want make excuses for blacks and are down for the cause..You people make me laugh..the 60's are over adn in terms of social justice they really didn't do anyhitng.OH yeah these white people like Emily who are "down for the struggle" I wonder what they would do if blacks started moving into there towns....null
 

nashtrash

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So I guess you can probably tell by all the inflammatory responses you're getting rural that your posts are really upsetting and insulting to most everybody on this board, not only urms. What really concerns me though is that you are in medical school and will one day be working in a hospital/private clinic/wherever caring for patients, and you don't seem to have much compassion for other people. I think warmth and sensitivity for your patients is more important than a high MCAT score and so do a lot of adcoms.

I don't think that urms are considered separately because of "slavery guilt"; really, suggesting that is pretty ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that blacks and hispanics are a statistical minority in the medical world, and an increase in their presence would increase the number of doctors that could sympathize with that dimension of their patients. Treating patients can be very personal, and a lot of patients, especially minorities, feel more comfortable with doctors that are of the same race and can maybe sympathize with their background.

As for your "this isn't the 60s" comments, less then 50 years ago the structure of our society was fundamentally racist. If you think you can revolutionize the mindset of an entire society in 40 years, I think you're sadly delusioned. And if you don't think racism exists anymore, I think you should go back and read your own posts a little more carefully. You really can't judge entire races the way you do, and you also never know the hardships other people have gone through, regardless of race.

Medicine is a long and difficult career path, and I have respect for anybody who has the desire/dedication/passion to choose it. I don't think it's right to talk about who "deserves" to go in to medicine; I feel that any person who wants to dedicate themselves to medicine and serving others has the "right" to go to medical school. Unfortunately, there are so few spots, and so many great minds and hearts out there to fill them--inevitably not everybody who applies can go to med school. Personally, if I had to give up my spot in med school, I would rather give it to a urm who demonstrated a strong desire to study medicine and unique perspectives of the world than someone with such unsympathetic and aggressive attitude. Since you are already on your way to becoming a doctor, I would really suggest that you get out in the world--work at some inner-city community clinics or volunteer in a high-risk/low-income community--and get some perspectives other than your own. I wish you the best of luck in opening your mind.
 

jordews

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Well said nashtrash.. I think the term Underrepresented Minority speaks for itself in this issue. The term itself is founded on the fact that there are certain races/cultures that are underrepresented in the medical field. I would believe that any doctor, hopefully even Rural,would agree that all human beings are entitled to medical care. The truth of the matter is, a large percentage of this country is african american, and a large percentage of them are underserved in terms of health care. It only makes sense to try and raise the number of doctors that would be committed to helping such people. To tell you the truth, if I was african american, I would rather receive health care from someone with a 24 on their MCAT, than receive no health care at all.
 

Roger Moore

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Rural - don't look down. If you do you will fall. Nobody gives a toss about the plight of the lower middle class or of the poor for that matter. There will always be poverty and poverty will always suck. The purpose of AA is not to create a perfect world but to heal a dangerous vertical rift in our society that could potentially threaten the peacefullness of america. In short the purpose is not to create justice but to produce stability.

The hardships of your lower middle class life and the whole AA project simply have nothing to do with each other. There's no point in comparing them. Look, you are in med school. You will be upper middle class. You are doing ok. Count your blessings. Sure you have had it hard. Suck it up and deal. Life is hard all round and none of us make it alone.

Projecting your insecurities onto black people will just make it harder for you to sort through your insecurities and grow. Be carefull excersizing your hatred and anger - like everything else the more they are used the more they grow. You need to chill out and have some fun. Good luck.
 

bluphilosopher

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Originally posted by Rural:
URM also means a person who doesn't work very hard but still gets in medical school. Then they argue that they will make great doctors. I don't think it matters that they will make great doctors.

If it doesn't matter if they will be great doctors, then what does!

Rural:
the ONLY reason they getin is b/c of their skin color. Ohters who are not the "right" color never get a chance to prove themelves b/c of these unqualified space fillers.

Got me there. I guess it took PCOM 3 years to figure out my ethnicity.

Rural:
Then they have Elitists like Emily on this board who will justify anything blacks do..Emily 70-80% African-ameriicans are born out of wedlock..Do you think they make "kckass" fathers or should just overlook that.....

Look Emily is a wonderful person who was trying to assist a group of minority students to put forth stats deserving of medical school admission. That sounds contradictory to your view of her. Oh, and 25% is the number you meant to say.

But really Rural, don't get me wrong. I'm not mad at you at all. Your posts were too full of emotion for me to claim you as an ignorant racist. You obviously believe yourself, which probably has a lot to do with lack of exposure.

Truth is AA works for a variety of people, not just blacks. And as for blacks, we only comprise 6% of all allopathic medical students. That's really not that impressive or reverse discriminatory.

Rural:
As a lower middle class student who busted his ass through every step of my education past I'm greatly offended a bunch of blacks are walked through this whole medschool processes. Why are there all these summer programs for minorties? Why can we all have the advantage of going to such programs.

This has a lot to do with the sad reality that different ethnic groups disproportionately receive different degrees of pre-collegiate education. Although, this has a lot to do with the even sadder fact that the US still is geographically segregated. ( The historical past of this country DID lead to this.) Still it's what we must deal with. ( As a side note, there are many non-URMs living in academically underserved communities, who have the same issues but are largely ignored.)

Why is the avg mcat at Howard, Mehary less than 24? Why is the avg gpa for blacks at every medical school much lower than whites and asians? Why must I go to a low tier med school while a black with my stats got into Yale? Yeah he must be so unique, my ass..

IMHO, any school with less than an MCAT of 24 obviously wanted it that way. An I'm pretty sure that many medical students in several rural based primary care schools can agree with me on that. Personally, I think it's very noble for any academic institution to give a blinds eye to popular opinion and just concentrate on serving society.

For any one that's interested here's an article by the American Psychological Association that ascribes the role of AA in our society. ( warning: it's a little long) A very good read!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.apa.org/ppo/aa.html

Rural:
. I laugh when Emily points out that Race is a factor, REALLY Emily. What if you're indian, chinese, french then is race a factor or is it only if you're black. Emily what do you think of Indian immgrants who come here and their parents work 12 hours a day just at $8/hr just so they can get by. Do you think these people would make "kickass" doctors? Or the chinese immgrant who has to work 7 hours after school everyday in his parents restaurent so they can make a livin then goes hime and studies and speaks chinese at home. Is he or he going to be a "kickass" doctor. I think we should have some way to evaluate a person't background and take that into consideration when making a decesion about admission not just the color of their skin as AA is right now.

Affirmitive action does include immigrants. Here's proof. I don't think this applies directly to medical school, but it is true!

Here's proof: http://pw1.netcom.com/~jimrobb/affirmative.html

In my opinion, people ARE different. Each ethnic group has it's own culture that has it's own unique way of sculpting that group. Most people ( once again IMHO) do not have the ability to fully realize every single detail about a different groups actions, nor can many people from a particular group really describe themselves in detail. Something's you just know and feel.
This is where diversity comes in. The medical field has to be able to accomodate society, not the other way around. If we only see fit to be readily available for ,let's say, 90% of society, then the other 10 will go extinct just for the sake of a handful of medical school slots. "Hey, Blu.. Those are harsh words, no group in this great country of ours is dying out or suffering badly from a lack of medical care."

quote:
Native American life expectancy 46
Non-Native American life expectancy 70 http://www.miquelon.net/usa/people.html

In good faith
bluphilosopher
PCOM 2005
 

Ryu

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Either people are having too much time with their fingers, or they just don't know that they can write to their congressman to express their concerns. But of course, writing such letter requires no anonymity, and this will keep all these self-righteous people on this board from writing it.

Don't waste time on this puny forum if you are talking about something grand, like admontion or approval of AA. Talk to somebody you have voted for.
 

SocialistMD

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Originally posted by bluphilosopher:

Affirmitive action does include immigrants. Here's proof. I don't think this applies directly to medical school, but it is true!

Here's proof: http://pw1.netcom.com/~jimrobb/affirmative.html

In my opinion, people ARE different. Each ethnic group has it's own culture that has it's own unique way of sculpting that group. Most people ( once again IMHO) do not have the ability to fully realize every single detail about a different groups actions, nor can many people from a particular group really describe themselves in detail. Something's you just know and feel.

blue, I know this is not my battle, but I must comment that you know as well as I do that AA in terms of immigrants in medical school does not apply. If it did, they would not just list race as white/caucasian, but would break it down. You know this because Asians and Middle Easterners do not get the benefits of AA in medical school, either, because they are not URMs. I just have a problem when people bring up arguments that they know do not support their claim. Yes, you gave the disclaimer, but you still presented it as if it might help your case. Tisk, tisk, tisk and a slap on the hand. ;)

Also, something else about which to think; if each culture is unique, how can we pass laws that do not take that uniqueness into account? A legislature of mostly whites are passing laws that affect non-whites. How can they be sure their blanket programs are going to help anyone when they do not take into consideration the uniqueness of each ethnicity?

You want more URM physicians to help with your URM patients, but the process in getting them there does not take into account each particular race's uniqueness. This also applies to your Native American argument; why not just give the Native Americans the AA benefit since most other races have roughly the same life expectancy? You are doing a better job at considering each race as unique and you better solve the problem you presented because that is an incredible discrepancy. If it is all due to a lack of Native American doctors (as your argument seems to claim), then the only URM group that should really be considered for AA benefits are the Native Americans because they are the only ones who are not on par with everyone else.

Hopefully, I will remain out of this debate and I will only post again to clarify this one.
 

Emily1

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I haven't been following this for a while - I've been busy w/teaching & research. I'm certainly not going to get into a huge & ridiculous debate on affirmative action w/anyone on this board, but as far as defending my "childish statements", let me just say a few things: 1. I never implied or meant to imply that I think these students will all be great MDs because they are black. I have come to know them very well over the past few weeks, and I think they will be great MDs because they are smart, compassionate, thoughtful people who have spent a lot of time volunteering and caring for others in different capacities. If you thought that I was arguing that all people of a certain minority group should attend medical school, then you must be very foolish indeed. Clearly that would be a ridiculous position.
2. My students are not, in fact, all black. I never said they were. One of them is actually white, and I am also working very hard to help her. I sought assistance on this board from people who might know more than I about the particular issues facing URMs, since I don't happen to know as much about those, and I didn't think my students should suffer because of my lack of knowledge.
3. You raise all sorts of bizarre points about "the KKK" and "my 60s attitude" and how I "probably have never lived in a city with black people", etc. These things are both incredibly insulting and patently false -- but I don't see the need to defend myself here. Suffice it to say that you don't even know me, and it is generally considered rude & ignorant to make assumptions about people you don't even know. In other words, please think before you talk. I don't know what you mean about "white guilt", really. I'm teaching this summer because I like teaching, and I did well enough in the application process to feel as though I have some useful tips to pass on to people. I really haven't been too obsessed about their race. Although you certainly seem to be obsessed about it.

4. Thanks very much to the couple of you who have posted helpful comments on here. I have passed those on to my students, and I think we're making good progress on the personal statements.

5. Finally, Rural, I would also be happy to assist you with your own personal statement at no charge, if you still need help. Feel free to contact me through the site. As I said, it's something that I do well, and I'd be glad to help out. Best of luck.
 

Pablo94

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URM also means a person who doesn't work very hard but still gets in medical school. Then they argue that they will make great doctors. I don't think it matters that they will make great doctors. the ONLY reason they getin is b/c of their skin color. Ohters who are not the "right" color never get a chance to prove themelves b/c of these unqualified space fillers. Then they have Elitists like Emily on this board who will justify anything blacks do..Emily 70-80% African-ameriicans are born out of wedlock..Do you think they make "kckass" fathers or should just overlook that.....
you suck man
 
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