Accepting job at hospital declaring bankruptcy?

[holabuster]

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Hey, SDN. I was wondering if any of you had experience working for an EM group and having your hospital declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Was your hospital sold/get shut down? Did you retain your job?

I am looking at a job with an EM group at a hospital with this situation and have been reassured that even if the hospital is sold, usually the rank and file EM docs will end up staying on with the new group.

Would greatly appreciate any insights you may have.

 

[miacomet]

Not enough info to make a determination, but how do you even know the hospital will stay open?

 

[Hercules]

I would walk away from that just due to the uncertainty. There’s too many other jobs where that won’t be an issue. If you do absolutely insist on taking this job I would make sure I had several backups lined up in the event that it goes down quickly.


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[GeneralVeers]

OP may be in an area with no other job opportunities. Again, not enough info.

 

[holabuster]

Thanks for the thoughts. The job is in a very competitive area in the perfect area I'd want to live so it'd be awesome if things panned out. High risk, high reward. Other options would require being an hour outside of the area I'd prefer to live or require long commutes of ~1-1.5 hours. :/ Anyone go through a similar situation?

 

[namethatsmell]

Thanks for the thoughts. The job is in a very competitive area in the perfect area I'd want to live so it'd be awesome if things panned out. High risk, high reward. Other options would require being an hour outside of the area I'd prefer to live or require long commutes of ~1-1.5 hours. :/ Anyone go through a similar situation?

While I've never worked for a place in the process of closing or at risk of closing, I know a few people who have. Check in on the staffing and what kind of transfer agreements they have in place. The last thing you want is to be short on ED nurses and docs when your L&D (or whatever upstairs resource) goes off line as the hospital "streamlines" and you have to start transferring these patients without a smooth process to do so. If you think the ED staffing and transfer agreements are solid enough it'll just be like a freestanding on steroids and could be OK.

I am familiar with the 1.5 hour commute you mention. While the money was great, it got old with da wife and life was better for everybody when I moved on from there. We were relative newlyweds when I worked there so she still wanted to see me regularly. If we'd been married longer she probably wouldn't have cared so much. If you're single it may not be a big deal.

 

[bravotwozero]

This does not seem like a stable situation. If it is legit declaring bankruptcy it will go out of business. Otherwise, somebody would have bid for and bought the hospital already and things would have never made it to this point.

Run away. Far far away.


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[deleted547339]

Dude. Just ask your question out loud. Should I take a job at a hospital that is declaring bankruptcy?

No. The answer is clearly no. It has either been run so badly that they are unprofitable or it has a terrible pay insured patient population, or both. Why would you voluntarily do this to yourself?

 

[holabuster]

It sounds like the payout mix is actually quite good, but the whole hospital was mismanaged for a while. New management has come in, and for part of their long term strategy, it appears chapter 11 bankruptcy is helpful for managing their bad long term debt. So yes, on paper, it sounds bad but in my mind, the hospital is very salvageable with better management. Maybe I'm being too optimistic?

 

[namethatsmell]

It sounds like the payout mix is actually quite good, but the whole hospital was mismanaged for a while. New management has come in, and for part of their long term strategy, it appears chapter 11 bankruptcy is helpful for managing their bad long term debt. So yes, on paper, it sounds bad but in my mind, the hospital is very salvageable with better management. Maybe I'm being too optimistic?

If this wasn't a big deal and it's in such a competitive an area as you describe, why are they the only job in town? There's a reason. I'm all for the premise of buying low, but you gotta recognize things can fall apart quickly and with little warning. But again, if you think the ED can operate as a free standing then maybe it's worth a shot and risk.

You can also ask for a clause in your contract that says once you're listed on the published schedule that you'll be paid for all shifts regardless of if the group loses the contract or the ED is closed down. It could help soften your opportunity cost.

 

[holabuster]

If this wasn't a big deal and it's in such a competitive an area as you describe, why are they the only job in town? There's a reason. I'm all for the premise of buying low, but you gotta recognize things can fall apart quickly and with little warning. But again, if you think the ED can operate as a free standing then maybe it's worth a shot and risk.

You can also ask for a clause in your contract that says once you're listed on the published schedule that you'll be paid for all shifts regardless of if the group loses the contract or the ED is closed down. It could help soften your opportunity cost.

There are other jobs but since it's a very desirable area, they are not hiring at all. So this would be my only shot at living in said area. I like the idea of adding in the clause. I appreciate all the thoughts. To be clear, the hospital is not shutting down--it has funding to stay open for a while. All it's services are continuing to function. The chapter 11 bankruptcy is evidentaly to clear long term debt so the hospital will be more attractive to buyers.

For docs that have worked in financially healthy hospitals that have changed EM groups for whatever reason (e.g. EmCare to Vituity), how much advance notice did you get? Did they offer you a contract to stay on with the new group? Did you stay on and change groups it is that something that would typically be forbidden in contracts?

 

[WilcoWorld]

Every job is temporary.

Do you like the job they're offering?

If so, take it. If not, don't.

 

[gro2001]

Maybe this is me being naive, but if you have a solid emergency fund and your family and finances can take a small hit should things go south and you end up having to look for another job at an inconvenient time, then what's the huge downside? You are not buying stock in this hospital, you are just working there for a while. The while maybe shorter or longer than expected, but as Wilco says, it's all temporary anyway. It's not like future employers will hold the hospital's failure against you. If you end up leaving after a few months (either because the new group wants to replace the docs or the transition period ends up being too unpleasant of a work environment) and someone asks you about it in the future, that's a super easy explanation.

Now, I probably wouldn't take a leadership role at this place. That's a situation where, fairly or unfairly, you may be associated with the failure of the institution.

 

[holabuster]

Appreciate all the thoughts. Very helpful. I haven't gotten a contract yet, but I'm reading up on contract issues, and a major issue seems like it would be a non compete clause. If there is one, it sounds like if the hospital changes ownership and they went with a different group, I would be prohibited from working there.

 

[BoardingDoc]

This does not seem like a stable situation. If it is legit declaring bankruptcy it will go out of business. Otherwise, somebody would have bid for and bought the hospital already and things would have never made it to this point.

This certainly could be true, but it is far from guaranteed. Chapter 11 does not require that a company close their doors, in fact the goal is to do the opposite. If the plan were to simply wipe out the debt and close everything down, they would have filed chapter 7.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Appreciate all the thoughts. Very helpful. I haven't gotten a contract yet, but I'm reading up on contract issues, and a major issue seems like it would be a non compete clause. If there is one, it sounds like if the hospital changes ownership and they went with a different group, I would be prohibited from working there.

Well a non-compete could be a deal-breaker, but that's an issue unto itself.

 

[holabuster]

You all are amazing, thank you so much for the insights.

 

[emergentmd]

EM director - "Doctor Holabuster, we have just been told that the hospital will close in one week, so please find another job and your last shift scheduled is tomorrow. Thank you for all of your work the last month"

If you can handle this financially and move on, then go ahead. If you can't then go find another job.

 

[holabuster]

Great advice guys. I think where I landed was I will set up 1 or 2 places to per diem in case the hospital goes out of business and then accept the job at this hospital undergoing bankruptcy. At worst, I can ramp up my shifts at my per diem sites. At best, the hospital becomes stable financially, and I'll have a solid job in the city I want. Do you think this is adequate protection?

I suppose I run the risk of asking for X number of shifts at my per diem places to meet my expected salary but them not being able to provide them, so I would have to go with a little salary hit while I find either another full-time gig or additional per diem locations to get to my expected shifts.

 

[Apollyon]

My hospital in Hawai'i was on the ropes when I started there, but I needed a job. They had been in bankruptcy, then out, then back in.

We found out Friday morning that the hospitals were closing. They wanted to chain the doors that evening at 7pm. However, they waited until 9am Monday. I got paid for all of my shifts. I got out 7am Monday, if I recall. This is 7 years ago, now, just before Christmas.

 

[gro2001]

My hospital in Hawai'i was on the ropes when I started there, but I needed a job. They had been in bankruptcy, then out, then back in.

We found out Friday morning that the hospitals were closing. They wanted to chain the doors that evening at 7pm. However, they waited until 9am Monday. I got paid for all of my shifts. I got out 7am Monday, if I recall. This is 7 years ago, now, just before Christmas.

Good thing you didn't stay late to chart or you would have been stuck!!!

 

[Apollyon]

Good thing you didn't stay late to chart or you would have been stuck!!!

I was the only one that had all my charts done! While the hospitals were closed, the med records office was still open, trying to finish everything off!

 

[Psai]

I was the only one that had all my charts done! While the hospitals were closed, the med records office was still open, trying to finish everything off!

Well considering that it takes them three faxes, twelve hours and a blood sacrifice to send over anything other than nursing notes, I can't see why that would be the case.