ACE inhibitors and hypotension

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forane

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At our institution they are restricting fluids and talking about how this makes patients get out of the hospital much earlier, but it is requiring neo drips on many patients who are on ACE inhibitors, and a fair amount of vasopressin.

Anyone else having similar pressure? I get very concerned with all the hypotension, about the patient having a stroke.

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You may want to elaboreate a little bit more - is fluid restriction in the OR and who is making the policy :eek: or is it a floor policy.

ACEs and hypotension upon induction is an often encountered issue, however I do not see a lot of problem in dealing with it. If you need phenylephrine infusion upon induction - just have it connected to your line and vasopressin ready.
You can also avoid pushing the propofol too fast and ventilate with minimum PIP - because the latter is a big contributing factor to resistant hypotension in a hypovolemic pt.
 
More scenario: NPO outpatients with a bowel prep (being admitted post surgery) are given relatively little fluids and small iv's (20 or even 22 gauge) and then there is a push not to give them much fluid at all during abdominal surgeries (due to the concern for edema of anastomoses). Some of these have also gotten epidurals (hopefully only with a test dose, but if it is a thoracic epidural, there may still be significant sympathectomy from the test dose).

How much phenylephrine are people having to run? 0.5 mcg/kg/min seems like a lot of pheynlephrine (a stick every 12 minutes) but I'm told this is really a SMALL dose???
 
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I'm not really sure what you're asking. We have been pretty successful in getting pts to not take their ACEIs on the AM of surgery. If they forget their instructions and take their ACE anyway, they will often require pressors. I would be reluctant to dose up a thoracic epidural in such a pt until I see how they tolerate GETA.
 
Are you a resident? Why won't you discuss this issue with your attending?
Or are you a CRNA?

20 or 22 g IV is pretty much a standard for a floor patient which doesn't mean you can't ( and actually NEED) to put another line in the OR :rolleyes:
 
restricting fluid to a patient who needs it (regardless of the reason) is malpractice in my opinion. does that answer your question
 
my guess if that they question that is being asked is that if you are trying to be fluid conservative in the OR how does one deal with hypotension related to ACE-I.

2 separate questions in my opinion.

1. Fluid conservation- a matter of what type of surgery in what situation. The research in this area is not complete by any means. All the permutations have not been studied. But i do believe that the old empiric dosing of fluid administration during procedure is indeed outdated. I believe the literature supports fluid administration based on procedure type, with more emphasis on real time data feedback and not just using predetermined estimates. IE Bowel surgery patients do better with a limited approach to fluids, using boluses for low BP combined with low UOP. Data would suggest longer return of bowel function more dehiscence or breakdown of anastomosis with large fluid administration. IN Out PT anesthesia for a Gallbladder or hernia data would suggest that a larger fluid administration patients have better lung function less PONV, less Pain, and a better overall feeling after surgery. Regardless Euvolumia is the goal it just matters on which end of it you are. IN the end give the patient what they need when they need it.

2. Intraoperative Hypotension- Not all hypotension in the OR is hypovolemia!! Reciprocally not all hypotension in the OR is a result of vasodilation. If the BP is supported, your patients should not have an ischemic events from low flow unless they are severely hypovolemic. When you say a "fair amount' how much are you talking? How much Anesthesia are you delivering and it what form (GA only, GA with regional), sitting positon, supine etc. These questions are what we get paid by the patients to determine. IF the patient had a normal BP and HR in preop and only became Hypotensive during Anesthesia and there has been no blood loss, then am going to guess that my anesthetics are causing a problem and would be more comfortable with pressors to counteract ACEI issues.
 
More scenario: NPO outpatients with a bowel prep (being admitted post surgery) are given relatively little fluids and small iv's (20 or even 22 gauge) and then there is a push not to give them much fluid at all during abdominal surgeries (due to the concern for edema of anastomoses). Some of these have also gotten epidurals (hopefully only with a test dose, but if it is a thoracic epidural, there may still be significant sympathectomy from the test dose).

How much phenylephrine are people having to run? 0.5 mcg/kg/min seems like a lot of pheynlephrine (a stick every 12 minutes) but I'm told this is really a SMALL dose???

i non weight base my dosing but its not uncommon to run 50-80 mcg/min (or around to 1mcg/kg/min) when you actually need it.

I think its reasonable to be judicious with your fluid replacement in abdominal surgery, in the past we probably gave too much.

hypotension is due to one of three things. since these patients are not likely to have pump dysfunction, you end up fighting elements of vasoplegia and hypovolemia. usually you can get by with supporting them one way or the other. i dont have data on whether its "better" to be on a moderate dose neo infusion or get 4 liters of crystalloid for these cases. i think that you should have a plan for treating both causes of hypotension, however.
 
restricting fluid to a patient who needs it (regardless of the reason) is malpractice in my opinion. does that answer your question

no i dont think it does. and we need to be concerned with things like return to bowel function, abdominal closure, and length of stay, all of which are affected by aggressive volume replacement. intraoperative hypotension is multifactorial, so maybe the correct statement is "allowing a patient to be significantly hypotensive without attempting to correct the problem is malpractice"
 
I don't understand the problems you are having with ACE inhibitors.
A lot of hypertensive patient are on ACE inhibitors i don't don't hold them prior to surgery and i'm not having hypotension problems intraoperatively. We don't even have vasopressin in Europe.
 
I don't understand the problems you are having with ACE inhibitors.
A lot of hypertensive patient are on ACE inhibitors i don't don't hold them prior to surgery and i'm not having hypotension problems intraoperatively. We don't even have vasopressin in Europe.

the problem is well documented, ace-i are notorious for causing intraoperative hypotension, often refractory to first line catecholamine therapy, necessitating consideration of vasopressin
 
the problem is well documented, ace-i are notorious for causing intraoperative hypotension, often refractory to first line catecholamine therapy, necessitating consideration of vasopressin

Well as i've said we don't have vasopressin and people aren't complaining...
 
Well as i've said we don't have vasopressin and people aren't complaining...

im sure its that the physiology of the european human is somehow different. do you have terlipressin or perhaps you know vasopressin by some other name? i can almost guarantee that you have vasopressin in some form.
 
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