Active Military, wanting to go to Med School

[medic86]

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Hi everyone!

I want to become a physician one day, but I feel hampered by my being in the military. I never really had an interest in medicine before I joined the military, but my job (I'm a medic) gave me a taste, and now you could call it a passion.

Educational background: I attended a local community college with the intent of transferring to a traditional 4-year university and getting my undergraduate degree in International Studies (originally.) I acquired approximately 15 semester hours and ended up quitting school to focus on work. I saw that I wasn't doing anything with my life, so I joined the Army.

Currently, I work at a hospital in a direct patient-care role, and the long hours (and military obligations) make it hard to even think about going to school. I understand the medical school requirements, but I'm betting online schools/courses would be looked down upon. Right now, I really have two options... obtain 60SH and apply for IPAP (Army Physician Assistant program - where online courses aren't looked down upon); or, take classes here and there until I ETS from the military and complete my undergraduate studies, then apply for medical school.

I'm feeling pretty jaded right now, as I almost feel like I'm too old to start school. I'm 23 years old. When I ETS from the military, I'll be 26. When I finish my undergraduate degree, I'll be 28-29. When I start my residency (assuming I get into medical school,) I'll be 34-35. Is it counter-productive to think this way? *sighs*

Anyway. I was just hoping to see if I could get some input from anyone that was in a similar situation to mine... and if anyone could possibly offer some advice.

Thanks!

-D

 

[notdeadyet]

I understand the medical school requirements, but I'm betting online schools/courses would be looked down upon.

Yes. Many med schools won't accept online coursework for prereqs. Some don't accept the credit at all.

When I finish my undergraduate degree, I'll be 28-29.

That will put you at probably around the 75th percentile for age (25th? Depends if you're talking age or youth, I guess). Average age for folks starting at most med schools is 23-25.

Decide if you want to be a doctor or PA. Different career paths (IPAP's a great program, by the way, but folks have said it's incredibly competitive to get into). Best of luck...

 

[Mister T]

Yes. Many med schools won't accept online coursework for prereqs. Some don't accept the credit at all.

That will put you at probably around the 75th percentile for age (25th? Depends if you're talking age or youth, I guess). Average age for folks starting at most med schools is 23-25.

Decide if you want to be a doctor or PA. Different career paths (IPAP's a great program, by the way, but folks have said it's incredibly competitive to get into). Best of luck...

Yeah, the pre-reqs are the only ones that you need to take at school to be safe, the other ones you should be able to bust out through online classes or even at your base if they offer any? But those pre-reqs tend to be readily available.

You might even get some credit for being in the military as well so you could look into that as well.


Edit: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...e=UTF8&hq=college&hnear=Fort+Stewart,+GA&z=10

 

[DeadCactus]

You have to decide if you want to be a PA or an MD. If you settle for PA when you really wanted to be an MD, I think you will find yourself frustrated with your career. The same goes for chasing an MD when what you want is offered by being a PA.

It's a personal decision and while economic factors may affect choice, you're not old enough where age should be an issue. The delay in starting school will be at least partially offset by the fact that you took a few years to live and have some financial resources to support your education.

As an extreme example, we have a person in our class who put there time in with the military and retired before coming to medical school. I can't say that's the right plan for everybody, but I think by the time all is said and done you'll find that you're not in a terrible position to pursue either career...

 

[a1qwerty55]

consider green-to-gold - get a degree which meets med school prerequisites - apply to medical school, get accepted and the Army will most likely let you go to school and come in post graduation.

 

[Slevin]

consider green-to-gold - get a degree which meets med school prerequisites - apply to medical school, get accepted and the Army will most likely let you go to school and come in post graduation.

My path to med school was like this Marine Corps --> College (using the GI Bill) --> Med school --> Army (HPSP)

Took advantage of the HPSP and now I'm working though my second year of med school. It sucks let me tell you but I think it'll be worth it in the end (plus I did the math and I'll be making double what my classmates are once I'm out of school, at least while they are in residency with no loans to pay back)

I'm 30 right now, feel like I'm old. Alot of my friends from the corps have kids and houses while I'm still in school. I know it'll start to pay off in 2 years but until then it sucks but it is possible as long as you put in the effort

 

[mac61]

About a decade ago I was in nearly the exact position that you're in right now. I was 25 at ETS with zero college credit. Did undergrad while in the Guard with an ROTC scholarship and the GI bill (Stayed at around my E-6 pay while in undergrad), now graduating from med school at 36.

At the time, I had a good reason for ROTC, but in the long run, it was a waste of time. If I had it to do over again (without the wars getting in the way) I'd have skipped ROTC. Green to Gold, on the other hand WOULD chop your time-line significantly, and is definitely worth looking into. Make sure you understand the Ed-Delay process first though. My commissioning year had too many ed-delay folks, my paperwork got in late, and I spent two years as an MSC Officer as pennance.

I chopped about 4 months off of my ETS with the Chapter 18 (I think) "Early Separation to Continue Education". Might be worth looking into.

I looked into IPAP when I was in the middle of the typical "Am I smart enough to be a doctor" bit, and found out that IPAP was WAY more competative than med school if you do well on the MCAT. I rolled the dice, killed the MCAT, the rest is history. I have met a lot of VERY satisfied/cool PAs that came out of IPAP though. In the end: totally different careers, totally different scope. Figure out which you really want.

Bottom line: Keep the target in sight, and there's no such thing as too late. I've hit a couple pretty significant bumps (administratively and in life), and now I'm 3 months from starting my 1st choice residency/location with a continuous contract.

WITHOUT A DOUBT, the hardest step was the first. Get to undergrad as quickly as you can, and ride the momentum. DO NOT STOP. I've seen "taking a break" kill a couple of really smart people that let life slow down the momentum, now working at Uno's Pizza.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

I ETS'd at 22 with 9 credit hours. I started medical school at 28. Oldest guy in my class was 56.

You'll be 34-35 no matter what you do with your life. Entirely useless to think like that. IMHO...

I've found that it makes you a more interesting applicant on the interview trail. Or that is certainly the impression I got from PD's. Which just confirms how I have felt for years. 😉

 

[Mister T]

I ETS'd at 22 with 9 credit hours. I started medical school at 28. Oldest guy in my class was 56.

You'll be 34-35 no matter what you do with your life. Entirely useless to think like that. IMHO...

I've found that it makes you a more interesting applicant on the interview trail. Or that is certainly the impression I got from PD's. Which just confirms how I have felt for years. 😉

Do you find that entering medical school at 28 that you're better adjusted to life in general compared to kids who have had no life studying to get As to get into medical school at 21-22?

What were the pros and cons in your opinion of entering later versus right away from college if there was anything at all.

Thanks,
T

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Agree with above, first figure out if you want to be a doc or a PA. It is a bit harder to see the difference in the military, but I assure you there are stark differences in training and in civilian practice.

Assuming you still want to be a doc, get out and use the GI bill to finish your college. It's a great deal. Assuming you like the military, go to USUHS or do HPSP. You know what you're getting into, if not talk to the docs you work with every day.

Don't sweat your age. You're going to be 40 sometime, might as well be a doctor when you get there. I had LOTS of people in my med school class in their 30s and at least one in his 40s. One had 6 kids and an unsupportive husband.

Don't forget that the hardest part of all this is actually getting into med school. Last I checked that was still pretty tough.

 

[Mister T]

Agree with above, first figure out if you want to be a doc or a PA. It is a bit harder to see the difference in the military, but I assure you there are stark differences in training and in civilian practice.

Assuming you still want to be a doc, get out and use the GI bill to finish your college. It's a great deal. Assuming you like the military, go to USUHS or do HPSP. You know what you're getting into, if not talk to the docs you work with every day.

Don't sweat your age. You're going to be 40 sometime, might as well be a doctor when you get there. I had LOTS of people in my med school class in their 30s and at least one in his 40s. One had 6 kids and an unsupportive husband.

Don't forget that the hardest part of all this is actually getting into med school. Last I checked that was still pretty tough.

disagree on using the GI Bill for undergrad. Use it for med. school.

 

[Gastrapathy]

disagree on using the GI Bill for undergrad. Use it for med. school.

No no no.

Who is to say that the OP will actually decide to go/get in to med school? Use your benefits at the first opportunity.

 

[mac61]

No no no.

Who is to say that the OP will actually decide to go/get in to med school? Use your benefits at the first opportunity.

👍 Emphatically agree. See above on momentum and Uno's.

 

[Mister T]

No no no.

Who is to say that the OP will actually decide to go/get in to med school? Use your benefits at the first opportunity.

No way.

Read this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9281262#post9281262

I have done a lot of research into how the Post 9/11 GI bill works when someone attends a professional school, medical, law, business, etc. The program is designed to take the highest state tuition for each state and use that to determine what the VA will pay per credit hour. The VA reimburses how ever many credit hours a school reports for a program. This is in the bill itself passed by congress.

I have discussed on the phone a few times what I would receive if I attend various medical schools. I specifically asked what information they had on every single medical school in a major metropolitan city. The numbers they had for each school were all very similar. The first two years of medical school were well over the traditional 30 units/year. The last two years, being clinical were even higher in credit hours. We discussed only drawing the benefits for 9 months a year for 4 years. I you work year around in the clinical years, so imagine so planning out/vacation to maximize reimbursement is in order. The state I was inquiring about had a high $$$ rate and they confirmed on several occasions my tuition would be practically covered save a few grand. This was various private schools.

This is not some loophole that everyone is exploiting, at least not yet. Almost everyone I talked to at the VA, including higher ups, specifically told me, "No one ever asks about these kinds of programs(meaning law/medicine)because their benefits are all gone by the time they get this far." The reality is many people will not postpone free undergrad + BAH for saving money later on. How many people do you think are leaving the military to attend law or medical school? Probably not a lot, at least not a significant percentage of the population who will utilize the GI bill.

Many people are also using some poor logic in this thread. Just because they "only" pay the highest instate public undergrad tuition, please look at the rate for each state. Texas is $1400, New York is $1000+, Pennsylvania is $800+, meaning you can go to inexpensive state school for undergrad like California, and then apply to medical schools in the above states and enjoy great tuition reduction even if the VA only pays for 30 credit hours per year.

The OP Plans on going to grad school either PA or Med. school and in this economy you can't do anything with a college degree.

The total benefits he would get from undergrad would be very low compared to the amount that he would get for going to a PA or medical school which he seems to be focused on.

Example) Going to a 4 year undergrad and getting a total of $40,000 in "savings" is nowhere the same as going to medical school or PA school for 4 years and getting $270,000 in savings.

 

[Slevin]

No way.

Read this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9281262#post9281262



The OP Plans on going to grad school either PA or Med. school and in this economy you can't do anything with a college degree.

The total benefits he would get from undergrad would be very low compared to the amount that he would get for going to a PA or medical school which he seems to be focused on.

Example) Going to a 4 year undergrad and getting a total of $40,000 in "savings" is nowhere the same as going to medical school or PA school for 4 years and getting $270,000 in savings.

The question is if the OP decides in college to go to a graduate school. If the OP doesn't continue onto graduate education for whatever reason and I've known people who were in the military who wanted to go to law school and for one reason or another didn't. If this happens to the OP then saving the GI bill won't be worth it. Also if for some reason the OP doesn't get into med/PA school again the saving the GI bill won't do him any good in that instance

 

[dru2002]

No way.

Read this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9281262#post9281262



The OP Plans on going to grad school either PA or Med. school and in this economy you can't do anything with a college degree.

The total benefits he would get from undergrad would be very low compared to the amount that he would get for going to a PA or medical school which he seems to be focused on.

Example) Going to a 4 year undergrad and getting a total of $40,000 in "savings" is nowhere the same as going to medical school or PA school for 4 years and getting $270,000 in savings.

Plans change. The only way I would agree with you is if he is going to a very cheap state school. Otherwise it makes since to use the GI Bill at the first opportunity. His plans may change, he may not get into med/PA school, or any other unforeseen outcome. Then what does he have undergrad debt and an unused GI Bill benefit. And my undergrad fully funded by the new GI bill has a cost of attendance of 33,000 a year. So if I took that out in loans and deferred it until I finished med school I don't think I would be in a much better position than waiting to med school to take out loans.

 

[Mister T]

The question is if the OP decides in college to go to a graduate school. If the OP doesn't continue onto graduate education for whatever reason and I've known people who were in the military who wanted to go to law school and for one reason or another didn't. If this happens to the OP then saving the GI bill won't be worth it. Also if for some reason the OP doesn't get into med/PA school again the saving the GI bill won't do him any good in that instance

Well it really depends on the goals of this guy and ultimately it boils down to his resolve but I can tell you that he will come to the conclusion as have most of us in my generation that a college degree is useless.

You MUST go to graduate school in order to be seriously considered outside of the minimum wage job in this economy and it's not going to change in the future.

The VA WANTS you to go to the school that is cheapest for them, because then they pay less obviously, so they don't say anything about grad. school clearly on their website or as the quoter above said.

It also sounds like he is resolved from his previous posts and pming him that he's going to pursue some type of school either Med. school or PA school or who knows what else, but like I said before a college degree is the new high school degree, it's really quite useless unless you're going into engineering or accounting but I don't think the OP has the interest/drive for that whatsoever, but if this is true, then I could agree with you.

 

[Mister T]

Plans change. The only way I would agree with you is if he is going to a very cheap state school. Otherwise it makes since to use the GI Bill at the first opportunity. His plans may change, he may not get into med/PA school, or any other unforeseen outcome. Then what does he have undergrad debt and an unused GI Bill benefit. And my undergrad fully funded by the new GI bill has a cost of attendance of 33,000 a year. So if I took that out in loans and deferred it until I finished med school I don't think I would be in a much better position than waiting to med school to take out loans.

Yes, I come from the ideology that going to a cheap state school is better for so many reasons than a private/expensive college.

1) It's cheaper.
2) The standards tend to be a little lower at most of them so it's easier to get As in general, which is 60% of what matters with the other 40% being the MCAT

But if he ends up going to an expensive undergrad (30-50k a year total), then I agree with you.

But the question is why? There is no benefit in going to a more expensive school unless you're going to one of the top 10/IVIes for instance, and that's not even guaranteed.

So in any case, my situation only applies if he goes to a cheap college (community college for instance for 2 years, then transfer to state university for last two years), where pulling out post-9/11 GI Bill benefits for a total of say $10,000-$30,000 is pointless.

And he probably also can pay off some of that debt immediately with the money he's already earned from being in the Army.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

GI Bill pays you the same, or did when I used it (pre 9/11 version, for UG and one semester of med school), no matter where you attend. It is simply based on class load. Further, the concept of getting a set amount of money for college (recruiter-speak) is misleading as well. You get an allotment of "months" of benefits, paid at a rate that changes each October.

While the money would be great as a medical student, as others have mentioned you can't count on getting in. I think the smarter thing to do, although more difficult, is to use it for undergrad and sock away as much of it as you can. IIRC the last semester I used it it was ~4000 if you were full time. Find a bank that pays decent interest and just hide it from yourself. Not having UG loans hanging over my head is pretty liberating, despite the fact they would be at such a low rate as to not even matter...

As far as being older making me more adjusted, I don't know. My maturity is a combination of work experience, military life, and being married. I feel like there were residency interviews that I got solely based on those things. I do feel like I have better stories than most of my classmates. 😀

 

[Mister T]

GI Bill pays you the same, or did when I used it (pre 9/11 version, for UG and one semester of med school), no matter where you attend. It is simply based on class load. Further, the concept of getting a set amount of money for college (recruiter-speak) is misleading as well. You get an allotment of "months" of benefits, paid at a rate that changes each October.

While the money would be great as a medical student, as others have mentioned you can't count on getting in. I think the smarter thing to do, although more difficult, is to use it for undergrad and sock away as much of it as you can. IIRC the last semester I used it it was ~4000 if you were full time. Find a bank that pays decent interest and just hide it from yourself. Not having UG loans hanging over my head is pretty liberating, despite the fact they would be at such a low rate as to not even matter...

As far as being older making me more adjusted, I don't know. My maturity is a combination of work experience, military life, and being married. I feel like there were residency interviews that I got solely based on those things. I do feel like I have better stories than most of my classmates. 😀

okay let's say that he gets his undergrad and for the sake of practicality gets his undergrad from a cheap school and that his undergrad total was $40,000 over 4 years.

ANd let's say he majored in biology or political science --- fairly standard/average undergrad majors for kids these days.

Then he gets out, and finds that the job market is **** and will have to end up working some minimum job literally because the degrees are not employable.

In that case, he's going to have to go back to grad. school for something, as that's just the trend that intelligent people end up realizing and going into, unless he wants to work at Pizzeria Uno for several more years...

Even if he doesn't go to medical school or even PA school, he may decide to go to law school, or get a master's or even a phd program but its pretty apparent that you have to go to grad. school unless you're an entrepreneur with the next great piece of technology of the century a la Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.

Now if he's going to an expensive undergrad, then I would agree with you, but given that the new Post-9/11 GI Bill can cover all of grad. school for free, plus give you as tipend and other benefits, it just doesn't make sense financially to do that unless you are undecided whether or not you're not going to pursue more education after college (hint: you will given the fact that a college degree is useless unless you're A) an ivy league-level graduate B) you majored in something ACTUALLY useful like accounting, engineering, or nursing, BUT nobody said you had to go to an expensive school to become any of these, and last I heard nobody gives a damn about where their nurse or accountant went for undergrad).

I guess we'll just have to hear back from the OP and see what his ideas about grad school are and how serious he is about going for it when he realizes that his undergrad degree won't get him a better paying job . I strongly support the notion that if he says that he wants to do grad. school + cheap undergrad, then don't use the post-9/11 GI bill for the cheap undergrad, you end up with HUGE HUGE HUGE OPPORTUNITY COSTS. But if he goes EXPENSIVE UNDERGRAD, then use the benefits from the post-9/11 GI Bill obviously.

It's just basic finance guys...

Edit: If he goes to Texas or Michigan or New York, the "big three" and even if he doesn't get into an MD school, he can still go to a DO school like NYCOM which have slighter GPA and MCAT scores, and get teh whole $80,000 bill covered for each year (as an average academic year is about 9 months * 4 = 36 months of benefits give or take a few months here and there of course).

So literally, they would be paying for $320,000 for a 4 year education at NYCOM for instance, which I would take the risk in applying as the average GPA is around a 3.0-3.4 GPA and 25-29 MCATish combination.

That, is a far better decision than using all those benefits for 4 years for a $40,000 education. And we're talking $280,000 in money that could have been used. It's an incredible deal, and even if he doesn't pursue med. school, use it for a different grad. school like law school OR DENTAL SCHOOL for instance.

And don't forget that he already has some money from his time in the military for a hopefully cheap undergrad, and he can take out very LOW INTEREST loans that really won't screw him whatsoever which is basically free money.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

I made two mental leaps that may have been wrong:

I assumed being in here, OP had no plans of NOT applying to grad school and working at Pizzeria Uno. However, not everyone gets in.

I also assumed that the post 9/11 GI Bill works the same as the pre. If they truly will cover ALL of grad school and give you a stipend, then yeah, OP would be ******ed to use it before that. The pre just gave you "months", and whether you attended Oxford or the local community college, you got the same amount based on how many hours you took.

 

[Mister T]

I made two mental leaps that may have been wrong:

I assumed being in here, OP had no plans of NOT applying to grad school and working at Pizzeria Uno. However, not everyone gets in.

I also assumed that the post 9/11 GI Bill works the same as the pre. If they truly will cover ALL of grad school and give you a stipend, then yeah, OP would be ******ed to use it before that. The pre just gave you "months", and whether you attended Oxford or the local community college, you got the same amount based on how many hours you took.

The post 9/11 GI Bill is truly amazing. It can cover the most expensive medical schools in this country for crying out loud. Some states are better than others (like New York and Texas), as you'll be getting all of it covered.

You get A) Tuition covered B) E-5 BAH Pay (adjustable depending on where you live, i.e. San Francisco, California would be $2500/month) for each month of the 36 months C) Free health insurnace D) $2000 for any professional exam E) Free tutoring which may or may not count Kaplan USMLE tutoring F) any school fees covered G) $1000 book stipend for the year.

It's pretty effing sick.

Sucks to be pre-9/11 veteran though.

 

[mac61]

The post 9/11 GI Bill is truly amazing. It can cover the most expensive medical schools in this country for crying out loud. Some states are better than others (like New York and Texas), as you'll be getting all of it covered.

You get A) Tuition covered B) E-5 BAH Pay (adjustable depending on where you live, i.e. San Francisco, California would be $2500/month) for each month of the 36 months C) Free health insurnace D) $2000 for any professional exam E) Free tutoring which may or may not count Kaplan USMLE tutoring F) any school fees covered G) $1000 book stipend for the year.

It's pretty effing sick.

Sucks to be pre-9/11 veteran though.

That is actually pretty effing sick. If this is fact, I rescind my "use it now" argument. If you can struggle through undergrad eating Top Ramen for the reward of a program better than HPSP OR USUHS, eat the Ramen. I still argue momentum is key.

And being pre-9/11 sucks only now that I know how much the program has improved, and that I could have given it to one of my kids. The GI Bill helped me get through school with 2 kids; whether or not I would have finished without the cash is left to speculation. I still would have come to USUHS, and knowing at least one kid would be set would have been a load off my mind. 🙁

 

[Mister T]

That is actually pretty effing sick. If this is fact, I rescind my "use it now" argument. If you can struggle through undergrad eating Top Ramen for the reward of a program better than HPSP OR USUHS, eat the Ramen. I still argue momentum is key.

And being pre-9/11 sucks only now that I know how much the program has improved, and that I could have given it to one of my kids. The GI Bill helped me get through school with 2 kids; whether or not I would have finished without the cash is left to speculation. I still would have come to USUHS, and knowing at least one kid would be set would have been a load off my mind. 🙁

He won't necessarily need to eat Ramen noodles during college, he also has money (hopefully) saved up during his time as an enlisted, which he can use. Plus, he might be able to qualify for some subsidized Stafford loans that don't need to be repaid until he is done with education (including grad. school), which is basically free money, and might even get some scholarships too.

He should also take CLEP/Dantes/ECS exams which are free for military veterans/active duty folks and bypsas as many undergrad credits as possible. They are like AP/IB credit, and will get him through a **** load of bull**** pre-requisites for graduating, so he can graduate as early as a few months to a year rather than waste 4 years listening to some ******* professor "profess." IMO, all you really need to become a doctor are the pre-reqs, and he's more than well rounded from his experience as a medic and in the army and that's hwo they do it in Europe and Asia. None of this bull**** 4 years of undergrad classes in **** you are not interested in to pay useless "liberal arts" professors (read: those who are completely unemployable outside of the college environment) who ****ed up for going into something that is completely useless 👎

OP, as said in the other thread you have, look into this:
http://bain4weeks.com/
http://123collegedegree.com/collegecredits.html

They detail the personal accounts of how they graduated with a bachelor's in a few months (or in the case of the first guy 4 weeks), because they got credit for al ot of exams. They just used review books, studied the pertinent information, passed (they detail which classes are easy to get As and the other ones that are not), and got credit.

A lot of military guys do this, and you also have your experience in teh army and as a medic that can be applied too.

So really, all you need to do is have some motivation and you may end up graduating from college in a year or two (and I would take classes at a college physically for the pre-reqs as A) they can be hard B) med. schools prefer this).

 

[vermontisforme]

I'm feeling pretty jaded right now, as I almost feel like I'm too old to start school. I'm 23 years old. When I ETS from the military, I'll be 26. When I finish my undergraduate degree, I'll be 28-29. When I start my residency (assuming I get into medical school,) I'll be 34-35. Is it counter-productive to think this way? *sighs*

-D

It is counter-productive! I am starting school this summer, when I will be 28, and I have friends who are older (early 30's) starting school. You can do what you want to do.

 

[m015094]

It is counterproductive to think that way. I'll be a year older than you when I finish med school (I'll be 36). Just accept the fact that you will have greater life experiences than your classmates and view it as a positive thing - not negative.