actual/estimated Fi02 on high flow nasal canula

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cfdavid

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So, I've seen a VERY small study regarding actual inspired Fi02 while a patient is on high flow (up to 15LPM) nasal canula.

It suggested (n=10 mind you and "pts" were healthy, young volunteers) that at 15L, Fi02 was up to 81% WITH MOUTH OPEN (counter-intuitive in my opinion, but perhaps there's a "syphon"/venturi effect) VERSUS 70% with mouth closed...... (I have yet to scour this study and it's on my agenda to look at methods etc.)

That's all fine and dandy. What I'm really interested in are some good studies that have evaluated ACTUAL alveolar Fi02 when a patient is on high flow nasal canula with 100% oxygen.

Anyone have any input on this matter. ***The reason I'm asking is because in the ICU where I'm at now (Cardiac), the RT's and nurses are supporting ABG's with LABELED Fi02 of "100%", which is what the high flow device says it's DELIVERING to the patient.

However, I find it very hard to believe that they are getting anywhere near that Fi02, and thus ABG's labeled as 100% can be misleading if P02 isn't super stellar.....

Thanks in advance.

cf

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High flow devices can deliver very close to 100% (and get go up to 40+ lpm). It all depends on what the patient's peak inspiratory flow rate. This significantly reduces anatomic dead space and also provides the equivalent of some CPAP (it's main use in peds). I think the difference between what the nurses are marking and what the alveoli see is negligible.

See PubID 19467849, Research in high flow therapy: Mechanisms of action Respiratory Medicine Volume 103, Issue 10, October 2009, Pages 1400-1405
 
High flow devices can deliver very close to 100% (and get go up to 40+ lpm). It all depends on what the patient's peak inspiratory flow rate. This significantly reduces anatomic dead space and also provides the equivalent of some CPAP (it's main use in peds). I think the difference between what the nurses are marking and what the alveoli see is negligible.

See PubID 19467849, Research in high flow therapy: Mechanisms of action Respiratory Medicine Volume 103, Issue 10, October 2009, Pages 1400-1405

Thanks for the link. I'll check this out for sure.

cf
 
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The inspiratory flow rate for a normal healthy adult is around 30 Lpm. If you're delivering 15 Lpm of 100% O2, the rest has to be made up by room air (21% O2). If my math is right (which it probably isn't) thats 60-70% FiO2.
 
So, I've seen a VERY small study regarding actual inspired Fi02 while a patient is on high flow (up to 15LPM) nasal canula.

It suggested (n=10 mind you and "pts" were healthy, young volunteers) that at 15L, Fi02 was up to 81% WITH MOUTH OPEN (counter-intuitive in my opinion, but perhaps there's a "syphon"/venturi effect) VERSUS 70% with mouth closed...... (I have yet to scour this study and it's on my agenda to look at methods etc.)

Thanks in advance.

cf

Hmmmm. Perhaps having the mouth open makes the oropharynx similar to a reservoir bag in a non-rebreathing mask. And I would bet those nasal prongs create quite a venturi effect at high flow in the nares, thus entraining air along with the O2, precluding an FIO2 of 1. My bet is no way a nasal cannula at any flow rate gets you to 100%.
 
Hmmmm. Perhaps having the mouth open makes the oropharynx similar to a reservoir bag in a non-rebreathing mask. And I would bet those nasal prongs create quite a venturi effect at high flow in the nares, thus entraining air along with the O2, precluding an FIO2 of 1. My bet is no way a nasal cannula at any flow rate gets you to 100%.

I read over the study of n=10 healthy, young volunteers (not exactly the ICU pt population) and they referenced other studies in which there was either no difference between mouth breathing OR that mouth closed showed higher Fi02's.

So, the jury seems to be out on mouth open versus mouth closed and it's impact on Fi02 using high flow nasal cannula....

cf
 
The inspiratory flow rate for a normal healthy adult is around 30 Lpm. If you're delivering 15 Lpm of 100% O2, the rest has to be made up by room air (21% O2). If my math is right (which it probably isn't) thats 60-70% FiO2.

I agree that at 15L, it's highly unlikely that the alveoli are seeing 100% Fi02.
 
Hmmmm. Perhaps having the mouth open makes the oropharynx similar to a reservoir bag in a non-rebreathing mask. And I would bet those nasal prongs create quite a venturi effect at high flow in the nares, thus entraining air along with the O2, precluding an FIO2 of 1. My bet is no way a nasal cannula at any flow rate gets you to 100%.

The study that proman referenced goes a long way in explaining mechanisms, but I don't recall them addressing mouth open versus closed as pertains to Fi02.
 
I sure hope this is humidified O2. Most patients find high flows irritating, and high flow of dry gas can dry out your mucus membranes and theoretically increase risk of nasal bleeding. Might even make breathing harder if it solidified any mucus (i.e. snot) in the nose.
 
Keep in mind most of those "high flow" nasal cannula are specially designed devices. They maintain precise flows, humidity and temperature. You can't just take a regular nasal cannula, humidify it, and crank it up to 15 liters. I'm not a neonatal icu guy, but I think they use something like it as CPAP substitute in the wee ones. As such the manufacturers also claim the high flows create some point of CPAP in their adults version. We trialed one of these things in the icu last year. We got gal with pretty nasty pulmonary hypertension and volume overload off the vent. We just couldn't wean her off the high flow nasal cannula, for at least a month.
 
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that above 6L/min a nasal cannula starts to have turbulent rather than laminar flow which reduces its effectiveness. To be honest, I'd love to be backed up or shot down on this as I don't fully understand the rationale. Also, high flows through the small apeture of an NC are going to feel less than pleasant on an awake patient.
 
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that above 6L/min a nasal cannula starts to have turbulent rather than laminar flow which reduces its effectiveness. To be honest, I'd love to be backed up or shot down on this as I don't fully understand the rationale. Also, high flows through the small apeture of an NC are going to feel less than pleasant on an awake patient.

I agree that this is a poorly understood aspect of 02 treatment, with limited research (though most show (as well as my limited experience) that patients prefer this OVER other methods of NIPPV in terms of comfort). It's one of the reasons for the post.

What also spurred this on was a situation I experienced on call in the cardiac ICU.....

Had a pt on high flow (15L at "100% Fi02"). I saw her early p.m. and she was sitting there talking to her friend. The nasal cannula was kind of crooked and thus not performing a good seal. But, she was saturating fine and looking pretty good sitting there chatting it up, in no distress at all.

SOOOOO, I get a friggin page at 4 a.m. from the RT asking to place an order for an ABG (they should have just ordered the damn thing but whatever). PRIOR ABG's while this woman was on high flow always showed Fi02=100%.

So, I said, listen, if we're gonna do an ABG, let's put her on a non-rebreather at like 60% for 1-2 hours and then draw the gas..... I wanted to see where she would be with a more "accurate" method of Fi02, which could be reasonably relied upon in lieu of lackluster studies demonstrating the actual Fi02 of high flow NC's.....

Later, at around 5:30 a.m. I was approached by this bitchy nurse whom I've never even seen. She goes "so, I hear you have some new "theories" on weaning from high flow" or something very similar to that. I'm like, WTF? and told her what I thought.

I know this sounds petty, but part of it was lack of sleep and the fact that she approached me so antagonistically at 5:30 a.m., which to her was her 9-10th hour of work, but my 23rd in a row..... So, I argue with her that I keep seeing ABG's with patients on high flow, with the cannula all crooked and crap, whilst talking (thus mouth breathing) to people. Then, the ABG's are coming back with P02's of 60% while the ABG reads "100% Fi02".

So, I insisted that it was very unlikely that the patient was actually receiving 100%, and thus we shouldn't be too suprised to see lackluster P02's coming back on "100% 02..... She goes on to INSIST that this never happens and that they ALWAYS put the FLOW RATE on such ABG's..... Well, later I pull up all the recent ABG's on that patient and show her how they ALL said "Fi02=100%" for which she didn't apologize or even seem to acknowledge.

She then hands me THIS study (after I alleged that I've seen many instances of non-EBM being practiced in my 3 short months as a resident.... for which she asserted that they NEVER practice non-EBM.....:laugh:). (She didn't think it was funny when I responded "oh, EBM eh?" "you mean the way you've always done it here in the unit?")

Here's the study: Note n=10 healthy volunteers as well as the reference to OTHER studies showing either the same or MORE Fi02 with mouth closed.... (in fairness those were also small studies).

Delivered oxygen concentrations using low-flow and high-flow nasal cannulas.
Wettstein RB, Shelledy DC, Peters JI.

Department of Respiratory Care, The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, Mail Code 6248, 7703 Floyd Curl Drive, San Antonio TX 78229-3900, USA. [email protected]

Comment in:

Respir Care. 2005 May;50(5):594-5.

Abstract
INTRODUCTION: Nasal cannulas are commonly used to deliver oxygen in acute and chronic care settings; however, there are few data available on delivered fraction of inspired oxygen (F(IO(2))). The purposes of this study were to determine the delivered F(IO(2)) on human subjects using low-flow and high-flow nasal cannulas, and to determine the effects of mouth-closed and mouth-open breathing on F(IO(2)).

METHODS: We measured the pharyngeal F(IO(2)) delivered by adult nasal cannulas at 1-6 L/min and high-flow nasal cannulas at 6-15 L/min consecutively in 10 normal subjects. Oxygen was initiated at 1 L/min, with the subject at rest, followed by a period of rapid breathing. Gas samples were aspirated from a nasal catheter positioned with the tip behind the uvula. This process was repeated at each liter flow. Mean, standard deviation, and range were calculated at each liter flow. F(IO(2)) during mouth-open and mouth-closed breathing were compared using the dependent test for paired values, to determine if there were significant differences.

RESULTS: The mean resting F(IO(2)) ranged from 0.26-0.54 at 1-6 L/min to 0.54-0.75 at 6-15 L/min. During rapid breathing the mean F(IO(2)) ranged from 0.24-0.45 at 1-6 L/min to 0.49-0.72 at 6-15 L/min. The mean F(IO(2)) increased with increasing flow rates. The standard deviation (+/- 0.04-0.15) and range were large, and F(IO(2)) varied widely within and between subjects. F(IO(2)) during mouth-open breathing was significantly (p < 0.05) greater than that during mouth-closed breathing.

CONCLUSIONS: F(IO(2)) increased with increasing flow. Subjects who breathed with their mouths open attained a significantly higher F(IO(2)), compared to those who breathed with their mouths closed.


Again, when you read this study, read it carefully, and notice FIRST how even THIS study shows max Fi02 of 81% at 15L (far from 100%). But, note also the controversy between mouth closed versus mouth open breathing.

***I'll admit that the only valid point that this nurse made (aside from challenging me which pissed me off and thus spurred me to look at this issue carefully to the extent that I may seriously look at initiating my OWN study regarding this issue...) was that regardless of what VALUE of Fi02 associated to the ABG, the real UTILITY (she didn't speak in these terms but you know) was to TREND Sp02 and P02's. I'll grant that one.

cf
 
You describe a scenario that's played out countless times a day across the country. It's a loser's battle. There's no way to come out on top and you've just wasted heartbeats arguing. Pick the battles that make a real difference in patient care.

I spoke with an RT who I trust the other day. She agreed that the high flow nasal cannulas probably don't approach an FiO2 of 1.0 (she guessed around 0.6-0.7). The benefits of the high flow devices are that they have a baffle in the them that allows for a higher flow to be better tolerated. The baffle also allows for better humidified oxygen and are better tolerated. She also said the only way to provide a higher FiO2 is to use a high flow face mask with the reservoir "horns" attached. These are connected to two high pressure inflows and can provide over 80 LPM. The actual FiO2 delivered again depends on the patient's peak inspiratory flow rate.
 
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You describe a scenario that's played out countless times a day across the country. It's a loser's battle. There's no way to come out on top and you've just wasted heartbeats arguing. Pick the battles that make a real difference in patient care.

I spoke with an RT who I trust the other day. She agreed that the high flow nasal cannulas probably don't approach an FiO2 of 1.0 (she guessed around 0.6-0.7). The benefits of the high flow devices are that they have a baffle in the them that allows for a higher flow to be better tolerated. The baffle also allows for better humidified oxygen and are better tolerated. She also said the only way to provide a higher FiO2 is to use a high flow face mask with the reservoir "horns" attached. These are connected to two high pressure inflows and can provide over 80 LPM. The actual FiO2 delivered again depends on the patient's peak inspiratory flow rate.

Totally.
 
We used some vapotherm equip back in the day. High flow O2 with theoretical and practical fiO2 limits up to 1. Patients generally tolerated them well (because of the increased humidity with such high flows) and oftentimes, either used them as a bridge in ARDS or COPD exacerbations as one might do with BiPap--->vent. As has been mentioned however, the rate limiting factor was usually insp. flow rates. But you'd be surprised how many folks teetering on the vent's edge can effectively be 'rested' with one of these. David...there's some interesting 'research' on their website. It's some of the little published literature out there but it's a fun read nonetheless.

http://www.vtherm.com/
http://www.vtherm.com/forclinicians/trials.asp

And no, I'm not a vapotherm rep or anything, just the only high flow o2 via NC equip I've ever used. Enjoy or not.
 

Yeah, you can't win there bro. Like proman said, you're losing that battle each and every time. To that nurse, she proves her point by giving you that study. And to her, it's done...settled...squashed...she's right, you're wrong, win win from the RN!!! Booyah baby! +1 RN, 0 intern.

Limitations of the study? Flaws in methodology? Conflicting results b/t her dumb initial statement and the actual results of the study she just gave you!?!?!. Conflicting results in alternative studies? Dude, all that crap will fall on deaf ears when you try to have an intelligent conversation with that nurse. It's not about EBM and patient care to her despite all the 'blah blah blah' she's preaching to you. To her, it's about she's right and you're wrong and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

It's these way-too-common scenarios that'll likely keep me from pursuing an academic CCM career and from working in the ICU past residency.
 
Yeah, you can't win there bro. Like proman said, you're losing that battle each and every time. To that nurse, she proves her point by giving you that study. And to her, it's done...settled...squashed...she's right, you're wrong, win win from the RN!!! Booyah baby! +1 RN, 0 intern.

Limitations of the study? Flaws in methodology? Conflicting results b/t her dumb initial statement and the actual results of the study she just gave you!?!?!. Conflicting results in alternative studies? Dude, all that crap will fall on deaf ears when you try to have an intelligent conversation with that nurse. It's not about EBM and patient care to her despite all the 'blah blah blah' she's preaching to you. To her, it's about she's right and you're wrong and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

It's these way-too-common scenarios that'll likely keep me from pursuing an academic CCM career and from working in the ICU past residency.

:laugh::laugh: This is so frggin spot on!! It's unbelievable, really. Wow. The temptation is so strong, though, to set the record straight. I'll probably take the high road though, UNLESS she brings it up ever again (haven't seen her since I was post-call that morning).

Generally, I haven't had a problem with the nurses in the ICU. But this one was a real piece of work.
 
Hate to bump a dead thread, but this issue came up on rounds the other day and I ran into this thread when I was reading up on it. We had a kid w/ RSV (i'm on peds right now) who was getting supplemental O2 via a HFNC. The intern presenting the patient kept saying the kid was on "6 lpm at an FIO2 of 1". Afterwards, I asked her if she meant 6 lpm of 100% oxygen, rather than an actual FIO2 of 1, as that sounded kinda wacky to me (i was a little bit familiar w/ these things at the time, but by no means an expert).

The intern and the resident then gave me a little lecture about how the HFNCs allow you to dial in the exact FIO2 you want (peds residents are apt to talk down to students like we don't know anything--that's true to a certain point about pediatric specific stuff but it's still kinda irritating). That still sounded kinda screwy to me but I didn't push it any further (I mean, first of all why would a kid sitting in bed pretty comfortable even need to be breathing 100% O2? Also, wtf would said kid be doing on a regular floor?).

The intern then went on a little diatribe about how giving oxygen to a COPDer depresses their drive to breathe (gag!--I'm so sick of hearing that one).
 
The intern then went on a little diatribe about how giving oxygen to a COPDer depresses their drive to breathe (gag!--I'm so sick of hearing that one).

I wish that myth would die ...


I was teaching the airway chapter to a bunch of EMT students last week and the subject came up. Apparently someone had told them that babies will go blind and COPD'ers will go apneic and die if given oxygen.

And another generation is indoctrinated to withhold supplemental oxygen from people who need it to live.
 
I wish that myth would die ...


I was teaching the airway chapter to a bunch of EMT students last week and the subject came up. Apparently someone had told them that babies will go blind and COPD'ers will go apneic and die if given oxygen.

And another generation is indoctrinated to withhold supplemental oxygen from people who need it to live.

How do you explain away the COPDers will not breath if given supplemental oxygen (even when sats are 75%! - like in the case I had the other day) when talking with EMTs/interns?

After wasting many minutes of discussion, all I could come up with was:
Well, have you ever seen it? EMT/intern answer: No.
Well, let's see now? COPDer didn't go apneic despite NRB and sats 94%!

Craziness.
But I guess I am a poor at educating.

HH
 
I wouldn't deprive a severely hypoxic COPD pt of oxygen, but I wouldn't totally dismiss the idea of hypoxic drive in a CO2 retainer. You can definitely worsen a COPDers CO2 retention by needlessly cranking up the O2.
 
So, I've seen a VERY small study regarding actual inspired Fi02 while a patient is on high flow (up to 15LPM) nasal canula.

It suggested (n=10 mind you and "pts" were healthy, young volunteers) that at 15L, Fi02 was up to 81% WITH MOUTH OPEN (counter-intuitive in my opinion, but perhaps there's a "syphon"/venturi effect) VERSUS 70% with mouth closed...... (I have yet to scour this study and it's on my agenda to look at methods etc.)

That's all fine and dandy. What I'm really interested in are some good studies that have evaluated ACTUAL alveolar Fi02 when a patient is on high flow nasal canula with 100% oxygen.

cf

My respiratory physiology professor (a board-certified pediatric anesthesiolgist who also had a PhD in pulmonary physiology [dissertation was on hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction]) was convinced that nasal cannula flow rates above 3 liters/minute were wasted, and that the best FiO2 you could achieve with nasal cannula was 30%. Nothing higher. Don't know if that was based on research or just experienced gut feeling.

Also the RTs / RNs should not be labeling an ABG sample as Fi02 100% unless the patient is intubated on 100% oxygen, or on a non-rebreather mask. Those are the only two ways to achieve 100%. A nasal cannula won't. A simple veni-mask won't.
 
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My 2 cents:
1) HFNC does NOT deliver 100% FiO2. It DOES, however, give the patient an alternative to a facemask. This is nice, so that they patient can eat, etc.
2) Most NRBM don't actually deliver 100% FiO2 (at least the cheap ones)
3) Unless you are using a true "high flow" device, as in one that will meet 100% of the patients inspiratory flow demands (which for >50ish% FiO2 you won't be running off of a 15lpm flowmeter), you cannot say what the FiO2 is.
4) If you give a COPDer 2lpm O2, are you going to kill them? NO.
5) If you give a hard core CO2 retainer COPD enough O2 to get their SpO2 to 98% will you cause them to go apneic? Probably not. Will they depress their respiratory drive? Maybe a little... but not like on ER. I DO think it's a good thing to have on your differential, even though it is unlikely.
6) I think that ROP due to prolonged time of high FiO2 is real, but we STILL give these kids O2 if they need it... we are just a bit more cautious on the sat limits.

To the OP, I feel your pain... I remember one time (before medical school) a nurse came to ask me how much air to put in the cuff of a trach tube so that the patient could eat. I said "none", and explained why. I was standing right next to an IM-CC fellow at the time, the nurse then said "No, we always put air in the cuff so they don't aspirate" (this patient had also completely cleared a video swallow study) and left to go put air in the cuff. The physician told her that we don't put air in the cuff, the nurse was STILL going to do it... so the physician wrote an order in the chart "Do not put air in cuff of trach tube during eating". BTTWWADI... gotta love that type of EBM! :meanie:
 
Not sure if anyone above posted this but, If you're pulling 500ml tidal tidal volumes, breathing 10 times a minute, that's 500ml in about 2 seconds so while you're inhaling that's a flow rate of about 15L/min. So unless you have some kind of external reservoir you're going to entrain room air along with flow from a nasal cannula.
 
Not sure if anyone above posted this but, If you're pulling 500ml tidal tidal volumes, breathing 10 times a minute, that's 500ml in about 2 seconds so while you're inhaling that's a flow rate of about 15L/min. So unless you have some kind of external reservoir you're going to entrain room air along with flow from a nasal cannula.

That's precisely the theory behind the high flow devices. The HFNC has a reservoir. But it's still not enough to deliver a true 1.0 FiO2, because it's not the total flow rate but peak inspiratory flow rate that must be met.
 
How do you explain away the COPDers will not breath if given supplemental oxygen (even when sats are 75%! - like in the case I had the other day) when talking with EMTs/interns?

After wasting many minutes of discussion, all I could come up with was:
Well, have you ever seen it? EMT/intern answer: No.
Well, let's see now? COPDer didn't go apneic despite NRB and sats 94%!

Craziness.
But I guess I am a poor at educating.

HH

http://home.pacbell.net/whitnack/The_Death_of_the_Hypoxic_Drive_Theory.htm

Print this out and give it to them ... it's as complete and concise a canned reference as I can find.

But horses and water and drinking come to mind.
 
I did an internship in internal medicine where the MICU was run by a pulmonologist/intensivist. One day on my ICU rotation, we took a "field trip" down to respiratory to "try out" all the respiratory therapy devices. We took turns wearing nasal cannulas, non-rebreathers and CPAP.

The "grand finale" was this so-called "super nasal cannula" that gave humidified oxygen at flows of up to 30 L/min. This device was presented to us as a palliative treatment - meant for the poor COPD'er/cancer patient who needed a high FIO2 to be comfortable (e.g. eating, talking, etc.) but who didn't want to be intubated. The FIO2 advertised was close to 100%. I tried it myself and it is something to have 30 L/min delivered to you via nasal cannula.
 
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