Acupuncture (truth and fiction)

[DrIgor]

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Hello Everyone,

I would like to get some general opinions about acupuncture/acupressure.

Today in one of my classes an Alternative Medicine professor was giving another one of his acupuncture lectures. He gave us 3 points that would cause a patient's fever to diminish. Now, I am a fairly open-minded person, but give me a break.

Do you really expect me to believe that you push on a point in your back and that would cause the hypothalamus to decrease your temperature? Furthermore, you are telling me that the reason this happens is because invisible energy goes through invisible channels. And finally, it's not just any invisible energy but it's either positive or negative.

To me this does not seem like the type of information that should be taught in a scientific medical institution. Give me evidence and give me facts. Is it a change in hormone levels and if so, which hormones and what is the change, and how did you find this out? However, we are never given this information. We are expected to blindly believe what we are taught, simply because this has been practiced for 5 thousand years.

Anyway, I think Acupuncture has its use--which strictly temprorary pain relief.

I would like to get your opinions on what is true, what is false, and if you would ever recommend acupuncture to a patient and for what purpose.

Thanks,
Igor.

 

[Fenrezz]

I can't imagine what any of that has to do with Osteopathic medicine. You'll probably get better answers from people who use acupuncture.

And who is this "you" you keep referring to in your post?

 

[group_theory]

It's best to approach Alternative Medicine with an open mind - remember, your patients will also be seeking alternative treatment (w/ or w/o your advice and consent).

Acupuncture is interesting in that there are people who swear by it, and there are people who claim it doesn't work. However, people are trying to sort out the facts from fictions. The National Institutes of Health, in their November 1997 "Consensus Statement on Acupuncture", endorsed the practice of acupuncture for treating certain medical conditions and acknowledged its potential benefit for a diverse group of medical disorders. Anyway, some major medical centers are now testing the validity of acupuncture.

UCLA Department of Anesthesiology operates a Medical Acupuncture Clinic. The UCLA Medical Acupuncture Clinic treats patients with a wide range of medical problems including:

1) Pain problems such as headache and migraine, neck pain, low back pain, sciatica, pain of arthritis or tendinitis and tennis elbow;

2) Neurological disorders;

3) Digestive disorders such as gastritis, spastic colon and constipation;

4) Respiratory disorders such as sinusitis, bronchitis, asthma and recurrent respiratory infections;

5) Urinary disorders;

6) Menstrual disorders such a premenstrual syndrome and painful menstruation; and

7) Reproductive problems.


It's even being integrated into mainstream medicine - UCLA Medical School is now starting to teach alternative medicine - including acupuncture - to their students.
http://www.jadecampus.com/News/CNN23feb99.htm


Remember - people used to eat a bark from a willow tree when they have fevers and/or headaches. No one knew the exact mechanism of how it worked - just that it did. It took several hundred years before salicin was extracted and isolated. There may not be any rational scientific explanation for acupuncture now - but give it time.

And I concur w/ Fenrezz - who is this "you" that you are referring to?

 

[DrIgor]

Group_Theory,
Thanks for your response.

Fenrezz,
The reason I posted about Acupuncture on an Osteopathic forum is because of the emphasis a typical Osteopathic curriculum places on alternative medicine.
The "you" I use in my post, if it reffers to anyone, it's probably the instructor.

Igor.

 

[Fenrezz]

Originally posted by DrIgor
The reason I posted about Acupuncture on an Osteopathic forum is because of the emphasis a typical Osteopathic curriculum places on alternative medicine.
The "you" I use in my post, if it reffers to anyone, it's probably the instructor.

That's cool, but you're as likely to see alternative medicine discussed at osteopathic schools as you are at allopathic. D.O. schools placing an emphasis on alternative medicine is news to me. I've yet to hear the word mentioned.

It just sounded from your original post like you were trying to debate osteopathic students about the benefits of acupuncture as if we actually cover it here.

 

[LukeWhite]

I believe AZCOM offers an elective devoted specifically to Acupuncture.

 

[LovelyRita]

Hi Fellow Classmate Igor!🙂

You sound really angry and upset at the teaching of the theories of acupuncture. 🙂

I think that it's very important to listen to lectures pertaining to complementary and alternative medicine. I like to use it when necessary (not that I'm ever really sick... but it beats getting shoved through the system sometimes). Lots of consumers use it. Because of that, there is more research being done. Some things are being proven effective, and some things are being disproved as effective. For me, I want to know about these things so I can effectively advise my patients.

Anyway, here's my drive the point home analogy. Energy works. (as in acupuncture). What happens, for instance, when you get bad news and, as a result, your stomach starts to hurt? No one actually physically punched you in the stomach. An intricate system of chemical signals tied your emotions to physical pain.

I think that's how I like to tie together the theories behind practices like acupuncture.

Peace and love Igor....by the way, how was your nap today in the OPP lab?! 😀

Good luck studying!
M.

 

[DOSouthpaw]

I don't know much about Accupuncture, but I do know that many of the points are similar to Chapman's points, which is Osteopathic. A group of our OPP Fellows did a research project on Acid Reflux and Chapman's Points a couple of years ago. They had a 90% cure rate (a cure was considered 100% off medication for acid reflux). Of the 10% failure group, only one person did not respond at all to the treatment. How do Chapman's Points work? Who knows, but they do. The study just got published in New Zealand, hopefully some of us here will restructure the study so that we can get published here in the US. We don't have any research faculty here on campus so it was a first time for all of us.

Later!

 

[RockandRolldoc]

Having studied Chinese philosophy in college I became very curious about chinese medicine and started to read up on the subject. Acupuncture is just like OMM, some people swear by it, others want to have nothing to do with it. I once saw a video of a brain surgery in a Chinese hospital where there wasn't an ounce of chemical or gasseous anesthesia used. All they used was 4 or 5 acupuncture needles strategically placed on the patient. The patient was conscious during the operation and all they felt was the vibration of the drill cutting into her skull. Now, I grant that there is no Nociception in the brain, but still...they cut this woman's head open without anesthesia! There are many theraputic benefits to Acupuncture and the study of Chinese medicine is something I plan on pursuing down the road. As a DO or an md, you automatically are licensed in all 50 states to perform acupuncture. We have a lot to learn from Chinese philosophy and culture in the west.

 

[mcataz]

I'm a believer. I used to think acupuncture was witch craft until my aunt (who is an allopathic physician) started incorporating it into her practice. Anyway, when she was learning acupuncture, she needed some guinea pigs so she called my mom and volunteered me. (Thanks mom) Anyway, I had this really really sore knot on my back. It hurt like hell and it was swollen and tender. So I said: "What the hell, go ahead and stick me." My aunt put a needle in my ear, my toe etc. I was like: "What the hell is this?" The next morning, that knot was gone. No trace of it at all. It was like it vanished. Ever since then, I have gone to her for any back or muscle related injuries and immediately I get relief. It could all be in my mind. But whatever she is doing is working. If it takes needles for my mind to heal my body then so be it. She can put a needle in my ass if it means healing me. Her son is in high school football and he is a beliver. He gets treated by her after every game and he too notices the difference.

 

[JH11]

mcataz,

Where did you Aunt learn acupuncture? From a school, self-study or a tutor? Just curious because I was wondering if it was possible for physicians to incorporate alternative medicine like acupuncture and naturopathic medicine into their practice....and how they go about doing it.

 

[AcuPAHawk]

Do you really expect me to believe that you push on a point in your back and that would cause the hypothalamus to decrease your temperature? Furthermore, you are telling me that the reason this happens is because invisible energy goes through invisible channels. And finally, it's not just any invisible energy but it's either positive or negative.

To me this does not seem like the type of information that should be taught in a scientific medical institution. Give me evidence and give me facts. Is it a change in hormone levels and if so, which hormones and what is the change, and how did you find this out? However, we are never given this information. We are expected to blindly believe what we are taught, simply because this has been practiced for 5 thousand years.

.[/QUOTE]


Don't be sucked into the whole "if I can't see it, then it must not exist" belief, because if your gonna be a health professional well guess what, there will be times where something good or bad will happen to a patient and you won't be able to explain/see why! FYI: We can only see electricity at a certain wavelength, maybe the wavelength for the energy traveling through our bodies is is too fine to be seen visibly. WE DO KNOW THAT OUR BODIES ARE PARTLY AN ELECTRICAL SYSTEM! So, the energy meridians and such described in acupuncture/oriental medicine aren't that far fetched I'd say! I'd also say that if it's been practiced for so long, then obviously it's successful, only idiot would keep receiving the treatments if it wasn't helping.

"Definition of Insanity......repeating the same task again and again expecting a different result...."

 

[SM-UCLA tech]

Hello Everyone,

I would like to get some general opinions about acupuncture/acupressure.

Today in one of my classes an Alternative Medicine professor was giving another one of his acupuncture lectures. He gave us 3 points that would cause a patient's fever to diminish. Now, I am a fairly open-minded person, but give me a break.

Do you really expect me to believe that you push on a point in your back and that would cause the hypothalamus to decrease your temperature? Furthermore, you are telling me that the reason this happens is because invisible energy goes through invisible channels. And finally, it's not just any invisible energy but it's either positive or negative.

To me this does not seem like the type of information that should be taught in a scientific medical institution. Give me evidence and give me facts. Is it a change in hormone levels and if so, which hormones and what is the change, and how did you find this out? However, we are never given this information. We are expected to blindly believe what we are taught, simply because this has been practiced for 5 thousand years.

Anyway, I think Acupuncture has its use--which strictly temprorary pain relief.

I would like to get your opinions on what is true, what is false, and if you would ever recommend acupuncture to a patient and for what purpose.

Thanks,
Igor.

Alternative medicine class???..........is that an elective you are taking?

 

[Goose...Fraba]

Hello Everyone,

I would like to get some general opinions about acupuncture/acupressure.

Today in one of my classes an Alternative Medicine professor was giving another one of his acupuncture lectures. He gave us 3 points that would cause a patient's fever to diminish. Now, I am a fairly open-minded person, but give me a break.

Do you really expect me to believe that you push on a point in your back and that would cause the hypothalamus to decrease your temperature? Furthermore, you are telling me that the reason this happens is because invisible energy goes through invisible channels. And finally, it's not just any invisible energy but it's either positive or negative.

To me this does not seem like the type of information that should be taught in a scientific medical institution. Give me evidence and give me facts. Is it a change in hormone levels and if so, which hormones and what is the change, and how did you find this out? However, we are never given this information. We are expected to blindly believe what we are taught, simply because this has been practiced for 5 thousand years.

Anyway, I think Acupuncture has its use--which strictly temprorary pain relief.

I would like to get your opinions on what is true, what is false, and if you would ever recommend acupuncture to a patient and for what purpose.

Thanks,
Igor.

Well said, I think that medical students/doctors should question what they learn and scrutinize it. If it doesn't sit right in your stomach, then you have a right to question it. I could have rewritten your whole post and say the exact same thing about manual manipulation! IMHO both have very powerful placebo effect which I think is very helpful to many patients. however there is stronger evidence (level 2 evidence) that shows that longer pain relief with true accupuncture vs sham accupuncture. as far as it relieving fever, I doubt it. however acupuncture has shown with reliable evidence that it is good for treating pain and nausea (post-op).

also I think that actually manipulation and accupuncture have similar mechanism of action. #1 is powerful placebo effect (which again does not make it bad or not a reasonable modality for appropriate patients). #2 is by stimulating the efferent nerves close to the area of pain it causes stimulation of the spinal inhibitory mechanisms which will dampen the transmission of pain before being sent to the brain(its much more complicated than this, and there are several areas in the brain, SC, and periphery that are important in modulating and transmitting pain). a good example, when you had a loose tooth as a kid and you wiggled it back and forth, it actually made it feel better. another example when your muscles ache or you are hurt, you rub it for awhile and it dampens the pain. like i said earlier its not that simple and many of the mechanisms right now are theories, but research is proving many true. pain is a very complicated so there is no simple answer.Good luck Dr. Igor, continue questioning, but on the same token keep a open mind, I think you and your patients will be better for it. but always look for EVIDENCE (and good evidence at least level 2 or level 1) and take all the anecdotal level 4 evidence with a grain of salt. unfortunatley in many medical schools (esp. mine) they shove this crap down your throats and punish you for even questioning if it has VALID scientific base.

goose
ps if you are looking for a source of what I call "scientific" accupuncture, I would look into Dr. Audette's research at Harvard/Spaulding. A very nice man, but very objective, and wont insult your intelligance with anecdotal crap, if there is weak evidence for certain indications he will come right out and say it up front.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Well said, I think that medical students/doctors should question what they learn and scrutinize it. If it doesn't sit right in your stomach, then you have a right to question it. I could have rewritten your whole post and say the exact same thing about manual manipulation! IMHO both have very powerful placebo effect which I think is very helpful to many patients. however there is stronger evidence (level 2 evidence) that shows that longer pain relief with true accupuncture vs sham accupuncture. as far as it relieving fever, I doubt it. however acupuncture has shown with reliable evidence that it is good for treating pain and nausea (post-op).

also I think that actually manipulation and accupuncture have similar mechanism of action. #1 is powerful placebo effect (which again does not make it bad or not a reasonable modality for appropriate patients). #2 is by stimulating the efferent nerves close to the area of pain it causes stimulation of the spinal inhibitory mechanisms which will dampen the transmission of pain before being sent to the brain(its much more complicated than this, and there are several areas in the brain, SC, and periphery that are important in modulating and transmitting pain). a good example, when you had a loose tooth as a kid and you wiggled it back and forth, it actually made it feel better. another example when your muscles ache or you are hurt, you rub it for awhile and it dampens the pain. like i said earlier its not that simple and many of the mechanisms right now are theories, but research is proving many true. pain is a very complicated so there is no simple answer.Good luck Dr. Igor, continue questioning, but on the same token keep a open mind, I think you and your patients will be better for it. but always look for EVIDENCE (and good evidence at least level 2 or level 1) and take all the anecdotal level 4 evidence with a grain of salt. unfortunatley in many medical schools (esp. mine) they shove this crap down your throats and punish you for even questioning if it has VALID scientific base.

goose
ps if you are looking for a source of what I call "scientific" accupuncture, I would look into Dr. Audette's research at Harvard/Spaulding. A very nice man, but very objective, and wont insult your intelligance with anecdotal crap, if there is weak evidence for certain indications he will come right out and say it up front.

Manual manipulation doesn't create puncture wounds.

We might as well start bloodletting again too.

Maybe even mercury.......

 

[dcratamt]

Hello Everyone,

I would like to get some general opinions about acupuncture/acupressure.

Today in one of my classes an Alternative Medicine professor was giving another one of his acupuncture lectures. He gave us 3 points that would cause a patient's fever to diminish. Now, I am a fairly open-minded person, but give me a break.

Do you really expect me to believe that you push on a point in your back and that would cause the hypothalamus to decrease your temperature? Furthermore, you are telling me that the reason this happens is because invisible energy goes through invisible channels. And finally, it's not just any invisible energy but it's either positive or negative.

To me this does not seem like the type of information that should be taught in a scientific medical institution. Give me evidence and give me facts. Is it a change in hormone levels and if so, which hormones and what is the change, and how did you find this out? However, we are never given this information. We are expected to blindly believe what we are taught, simply because this has been practiced for 5 thousand years.

Anyway, I think Acupuncture has its use--which strictly temprorary pain relief.

I would like to get your opinions on what is true, what is false, and if you would ever recommend acupuncture to a patient and for what purpose.

Thanks,
Igor.

I totally agree. All this stuff is BS!!!. They expect us to believe that points in the back could affect the hypothalamus. Next thing you know they will be telling us that a babies cry can stimulate Oxytocin release or that under hypnosis the suggestion of water drinking will inhibit ADH.

 

[raptor5]

I would like to get your opinions on what is true, what is false, and if you would ever recommend acupuncture to a patient and for what purpose.

What does the literature say? A few good diverse sources answers your question.