Acupuncture

[mac_kin]

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Does anyone here practice or plan to practice acupuncture?

If so, do you have any recommendations regarding training programs in the north eastern US?

thanks!

 

[Perrotfish]

Prescription for better health: Less CAM, more science.

 

[cheasus]

I don't but its not uncommon for MDs to practice accupuncture as part of their practice. I'm actually shadowing one of the profs at my school whos a physical rehab specialist and I'll be following him as he does acupuncture on his patients.

 

[RxnMan]

Just because someone else does something does not make it right.

Acupuncture is garbage. It does not work. I felt like a fraud and a liar when one of my attendings asked me (read: told me) to participate in an acupuncture "treatment". It's taking advantage of a patients, commonly ones with psychiatric disorders, and abuses the doctor-patient relationship for money.

 

[Ativanigans]

Just because someone else does something does not make it right.

Acupuncture is garbage. It does not work. I felt like a fraud and a liar when one of my attendings asked me (read: told me) to participate in an acupuncture "treatment". It's taking advantage of a patients, commonly ones with psychiatric disorders, and abuses the doctor-patient relationship for money.

Yep. We had an "alternative medicine day" at our school where a bunch of CAM people from different fields came and talked to us about their specific specialty. Acupuncture, like a lot of other CAM fields, is complete BS wrapped up in a pretty bow. The baseline "science" behind it is totally ridiculous

 

[mac_kin]

I understand the big pharma sponsored conventional medicine of today is what we've all been 'learned' to believe in, but I like to keep an open mind. I have first-hand personal experience of the incredible possibilities of acupuncture. I also have relatives and friends who have had acupuncture treatments for pain, flu, pneumonia, gastric diseases and even an orthopaedic surgery done under only acupuncture!

Keep in mind that there are doctors in Hong Kong, China, and Japan who use only acupuncture to diagnose and treat their patients. And last I checked those populations had a better health status than us.

So please don't tell me it is utter BS. You are free to treat your patients using whatever methods you like but I want to present them with all options, including those that stray from pharmaceuticals.

I just get a little bit frustrated when someone refuses to understand or utilize all the options, simply because they are a little bit different!

 

[KeyzerSoze]

...waaaah... big pharma anecdote, anecdote, ANECDOTE! waaah! faulty logic, implied poor use of statistics... waaah! utter BS... frustrated... waaaah....

What you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

.

 

[unsung]

I understand the big pharma sponsored conventional medicine of today is what we've all been 'learned' to believe in, but I like to keep an open mind. I have first-hand personal experience of the incredible possibilities of acupuncture. I also have relatives and friends who have had acupuncture treatments for pain, flu, pneumonia, gastric diseases and even an orthopaedic surgery done under only acupuncture!

Keep in mind that there are doctors in Hong Kong, China, and Japan who use only acupuncture to diagnose and treat their patients. And last I checked those populations had a better health status than us.

So please don't tell me it is utter BS. You are free to treat your patients using whatever methods you like but I want to present them with all options, including those that stray from pharmaceuticals.

I just get a little bit frustrated when someone refuses to understand or utilize all the options, simply because they are a little bit different!

I knew when you started this thread there was going to be a bunch of mudslinging inside. I was almost afraid to click open the thread.

Speaking of "evidence-based medicine", isn't it funny how docs are "outraged" over the breast cancer screening recommendations? They're basically ignoring the science if they are "outraged". The science is sound.

Okay, that example is not analogous to acupuncture in any form. (Since I do believe in the science behind some uses of acupuncture).

But I bring the breast cancer example up because I find it funny that people think the practice of Western medicine is so "rooted in science", when oftentimes, it's not! How else do you explain how the docs worked up over the new recommendations for screening? There's NO science behind continuing to screen at the early ages as has been done... yet that is what docs want to do.

So if they do that, what are they doing? Ignoring science.

And let's look at Li+. Now we understand a little bit better how it works on manic depression. But for a long long long time, it was used with very little understanding of how or why it worked! And let's not forget ECT! How does THAT work... you tell me.

Tell me why exactly is it that you purport to believe in ECT, support its use, and yet condemn acupuncture.

I would argue it's more force of habit (as well as the "stigma" of acupuncture being "alternative") more than any real scientific justification.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

And let's look at Li+. Now we understand a little bit better how it works on manic depression. But for a long long long time, it was used with very little understanding of how or why it worked! And let's not forget ECT! How does THAT work... you tell me.

Tell me why exactly is it that you purport to believe in ECT, support its use, and yet condemn acupuncture.

Um... you do see the difference between understanding HOW something works and understanding THAT something works, right?

 

[clinicallabguy]

I don't make any claim that any CAM is effective or proven. It just seems naive to claim that allopathic physicians only ever practice evidence based medicine.

It seems to me that many medical decisions are based on a physicians opinion that is determined most profoundly by the 5 most recent situations that seemed the same or presented with the same signs or symptoms, and not on the results of a journal article.

Someone is going to respond: Sure but EBM is still something to strive after as physicians.

Sure it is. But I believe we will find ourselves in situations where we do not have access to empirical data, and we'll need to make a diagnostic and therapeutic decision based upon something else. And then what do we do? Follow our gut? Is putting faith in our gut feelings any more reliable than people putting faith in CAM? I don't know, admittedly with our training it likely is, and I will feel confident that I'm doing the right thing in those situations, when I trust myself. But it's not as superior as I think some people shout that it is.

My personal opinion about most CAM is undecided. My decided opinion about people/patients who believe in CAM is that I respect them, if they're not out to scam people. There are those, too. But I don't believe that they all are scam artists.

For 7 years my dad has suffered from an auto-immune disease that, despite many attempts, good doctors have not been able to diagnose the disease. It felt to him that physicians merely said, "We don't know what's wrong but take these steroids with significant side effects." So he looked to alternative therapies. I encouraged him to continue to participate in western medicine, because like anybody here I don't think CAM will cure you. And he did. But you've got to understand that it's frustrating to suffer from side effects when you're being treated for a disease that the people treating you haven't even confidently identified.

CAM does have value in helping patients feel like they have some control over their own body, or that they are doing something to help. It should NEVER replace PROVEN medicine! That I will agree with. I will not administer treatment that I don't believe works. But I will not ridicule someone who is suffering and looking anywhere they can to find answers. I appreciate peoples need to have faith in something.

It's important to be respectful of differing opinions (yes, even when they are unproven). Unproven is not the same as dead wrong, even if you think it is.

*Step off soap box*

 

[ATR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RxnMan
Acupuncture is garbage. It does not work. I felt like a fraud and a liar when one of my attendings asked me (read: told me) to participate in an acupuncture "treatment". It's taking advantage of a patients, commonly ones with psychiatric disorders, and abuses the doctor-patient relationship for money.

Acupuncture, like a lot of other CAM fields, is complete BS wrapped up in a pretty bow. The baseline "science" behind it is totally ridiculous

Such broad statements are relatively easy to disprove with a quick literature search:

1-Gan[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif], JAMA. 2002;287:1233-1236.
2-Lee & Done, Anesth Analg. 1999;88:1362–9
3-http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol15_3/article1.html

Does this mean it is the panacea which some CAM practitioners represent it as? The mere ambiguity in some literature argues against that. It does show, however that there is evidence developing which shows it to be safe, effective and cost effective for some conditions, despite some significant methodological hurdles yet to overcome in blinding, internal validity, identifying an intert placebo and standardization and thoroughness of reporting in clinical trials. (See http://www.stricta.info/). In short, current evidence suggests it should neither be blindly embraced in its current form nor summarily dismissed without further rigorous inquiry.

 

[Perrotfish]

Alright, honestly? You shouldn't even need a study to know that acupunctre doesn't work (though there are several), common sense should sufice. Acupuncture/acupressure is the practice of interactacting with the body to redirect the flow of a life force (chi) along paths (meridians) in between nodal points (chakras). You should be able to discount this just because THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS CHI, CHAKRAS, OR MERIDIANS. There is no such thing as 'life energy' or 'life force'. Life is a mechano-chemical system, energy is the ability to do work, and the only forces in the universe are stong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravitational, and electromagnetic. We should be able to dismiss this out of hand, just like voodoo and healing crystals.

 

[facetguy]

Alright, honestly? You shouldn't even need a study to know that acupunctre doesn't work (though there are several), common sense should sufice. Acupuncture/acupressure is the practice of interactacting with the body to redirect the flow of a life force (chi) along paths (meridians) in between nodal points (chakras). You should be able to discount this just because THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS CHI, CHAKRAS, OR MERIDIANS. There is no such thing as 'life energy' or 'life force'. Life is a mechano-chemical system, energy is the ability to do work, and the only forces in the universe are stong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravitational, and electromagnetic. We should be able to dismiss this out of hand, just like voodoo and healing crystals.

Ah, Perrotfish the All-Knowing strikes again! Dude, you've proven in the past that you like to make these definitive statements when you in fact have little or no knowledge of the subject matter.

Clinicallabguy's approach above is much more reasoned. I suspect Perrotfish's thoughts on the subject will change once he comes face-to-face with more real patients.

 

[ATR]

Alright, honestly? You shouldn't even need a study to know that acupunctre doesn't work (though there are several), common sense should sufice. Acupuncture/acupressure is the practice of interactacting with the body to redirect the flow of a life force (chi) along paths (meridians) in between nodal points (chakras). You should be able to discount this just because THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS CHI, CHAKRAS, OR MERIDIANS. There is no such thing as 'life energy' or 'life force'. Life is a mechano-chemical system, energy is the ability to do work, and the only forces in the universe are stong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravitational, and electromagnetic. We should be able to dismiss this out of hand, just like voodoo and healing crystals.

No, in fact acupuncture is the practice of inserting needles into the body. Some approaches use the (metaphorical) theory of Qi/Chi, others do not. See the work by Travell and Simons on myofascial trigger points, what they refer to as "dry needling". The theory some use to explain something does not define what it is. It only attempts to explain it, and in my opinion quite poorly in this case.

To the OP, in the northeast your best option is http://www.nesa.edu/ before becoming a physician. Once you're a physician in many states you can practice without any training, but you can also do CME work to get trained. The most popular is http://www.hmieducation.com/. It's taught by a physician.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[zenman]

I actually got accepted to an Oriental Medicine school and was studying acupuncture but at the same time was also taking Zen Shiatsu at the same school. I thought the acupuncture was overly theoretical and dropped it in favor of the shiatsu. I later taught shiatsu at the school so had many opportunities for free student treatments. I never had anything wrong with me so can't say it worked...until I got tennis and golfer's elbows bilaterally. I was in misery and had seen many doctors and nothing was working. Then one of the students worked on me and the pain in one elbow was gone immediately and one more treatment took care of the other elbow. Turns out this student was a Korean who came from many generations of family trained acupuncturists and was already experienced. He was just going back through an American school to get certified in the states. Needless to say I was very happy!

Then my wife takes our dog to a vet that did acupuncture for a skin condition that wouldn't heal. I asked the vet how he was going to keep the needles in with the dog wondering around excited in his office. He said he was going to put him to sleep first...with some needles. Sure enough he placed a couple needles and I watched Reggie's eyes droop and he lay down. It was funny as hell and I wished I had bought my camera. The vet placed some more needles and after about 15 minutes Reggie woke up and the vet removed the needles. His skin cleared up also.

Course this is only one story and I'll bet the acupuncture was the reason Reggie got cancer later and died.🙁

 

[Downbytheicu]

In short, current evidence suggests it should neither be blindly embraced in its current form nor summarily dismissed without further rigorous inquiry.

Word to that. That statement applies to almost all alternative therapies with "unknown effectiveness" attached to them. And frankly, if it's shown to work, it shouldn't be "alternative" anymore and physicians should start to use it. However, I believe that to be ethical, you must first prove safety and then efficacy before a practitioner recommends it as a therapy. Laypeople can endorse something all they want based on their anecdotal evidence. I believe we have to be a bit more discerning.

 

[Themistocles]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4


Basically they found that traditional acupuncture led people to report fewer problems "in dysfunction but not in symptoms" for back pain. Interestingly, the same results were found by 'tricking' people into thinking they were getting acupuncture using toothpicks.

Hmmm, anyone 'round these parts heard tell of something called a placebo effect?

As a side note, I have little tolerance for anyone, particularly med students, who give any shred of support to this sort of junk. While it might seem harmless enough the fact is that it supports and gives credence to an ever-growing anti-Western-medicine culture, a culture of snake-oil salesmen that ensnares the most gullible and often elderly individuals into thinking they can do things like treat cancer with a handful of herbs. The results can be fatal, and have been so in my personal experience.

 

[ATR]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4


Basically they found that traditional acupuncture led people to report fewer problems "in dysfunction but not in symptoms" for back pain. Interestingly, the same results were found by 'tricking' people into thinking they were getting acupuncture using toothpicks.

Hmmm, anyone 'round these parts heard tell of something called a placebo effect?

As a side note, I have little tolerance for anyone, particularly med students, who give any shred of support to this sort of junk. While it might seem harmless enough the fact is that it supports and gives credence to an ever-growing anti-Western-medicine culture, a culture of snake-oil salesmen that ensnares the most gullible and often elderly individuals into thinking they can do things like treat cancer with a handful of herbs. The results can be fatal, and have been so in my personal experience.

An interesting study, for sure, though your conclusion regarding the placebo effect represents only one of two possible explanations for the results of the study, as described by the paper's authors:

"However, both real and sham acupuncture appear superior to usual care. Possible explanations for these findings include the following: (1) superficial acupuncture point stimulation directly stimulates physiological processes that ultimately lead to improved pain and function, or (2) participants' improved functioning resulted from nonspecific effects such as therapist conviction, patient enthusiasm, or receiving a treatment believed to be helpful."

Indeed, they correctly point out an unresolved methodological issue in current acupuncture research:

"The appropriateness of using minimal, superficial, or sham control groups in trials of acupuncture remains controversial.28 In fact, the use of blunt needles that did not penetrate the skin was described 2000 years ago in the classic book on acupuncture needling.29 A study using functional magnetic resonance imaging found that superficial and deep needling of an acupuncture point elicited similar blood oxygen level–dependent responses.30 Another study demonstrated that lightly touching the skin can stimulate mechanoreceptors that induce emotional and hormonal reactions, which in turn alleviate the affective component of pain.31 This could explain why trials evaluating acupuncture for pain have failed to find that real acupuncture is superior to sham or superficial control treatments and raises questions about whether sham treatments truly serve as inactive controls."

The shortened version of this perspective is to say that superficial stimulation of the skin is not an inert intervention (a requirement for something to be considered a placebo), and apparently has some specific effects similar to skin penetration acupuncture.

Secondly, the authors' conclusion that individualized, standardized and simulated (cutaneous stimulation) acupuncture are equivalent in their effects is not novel, but is useful to see reconfirmed.

Finally, as for your reference to herbs and your own personal tragic experiences, I'm sorry to hear that and indeed herbal formulations carry much more risk of harm than does acupuncture in the hands of a trained practitioner. But please consider that these are independent modalities, and indictment of one does not imply culpability of the other.

 

[facetguy]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4


Basically they found that traditional acupuncture led people to report fewer problems "in dysfunction but not in symptoms" for back pain. Interestingly, the same results were found by 'tricking' people into thinking they were getting acupuncture using toothpicks.

Hmmm, anyone 'round these parts heard tell of something called a placebo effect?

As a side note, I have little tolerance for anyone, particularly med students, who give any shred of support to this sort of junk. While it might seem harmless enough the fact is that it supports and gives credence to an ever-growing anti-Western-medicine culture, a culture of snake-oil salesmen that ensnares the most gullible and often elderly individuals into thinking they can do things like treat cancer with a handful of herbs. The results can be fatal, and have been so in my personal experience.

Hmmm, anyone 'round these parts heard of something called arrogance?

 

[shahalam]

Poor Panda Bear

 

[yasinthomas]

Accupuncture is really a good therapy and it just work as miracle......doing accuapuncture keeps you free from all sorts of physical problem...so its good...everyone should do this

 

[LAcDPT2be]

If a person is able to accept that acupuncture, in no shape or form, addresses your ailments as it's understood by your physician- that's a good start. It's a different system that has roots in a different era in every sense of the way.
Go ahead and compare and contrast. Without being competent in the theory and history of TCM (traditional chinese medicine), you're not going to understand why most western medical practitioners claim it doesn't work. Truth is, just like in any form of healthcare, your results are going to be only as good as your practitioner. If you're getting acupuncture from Starshine Lovejoy, who claims to know what she's doing but isn't licensed and seems like she's playing with a short deck, of course you're not going to see results.

The short answer is that (most) acupuncturists believe that western medical practitioners who aren't licensed acupuncturist (L.Ac, passing our national boards) and M.S. (yes, 2,500 clinic hours, a 3-4 year masters of science) degree shouldn't practice the "utter B.S." known as Medical Acupuncture (a 200 hour certificate, if that). 👎 It's not up to acupuncturists to prove how it works to the conventional medical field. It's not conventional medicine, so most studies trying to explain TCM in those terms won't find any satisfactory results.

In my opinion the, ahem, "voodoo" that I do helps what you do...

that's why the DPT degree is next in line for me.

http://www.acaom.org/accdtd_cndtdschls.htm

here's a list of programs that are accredited. I'm halfway through a M.S. OM program in Chicago and it's been a great experience so far. good luck on your search, I hope that link helps 😀

 

[sumstorm]

Wow, I don't think we can get certified in 200 hours in vet med. I think it is at least a year.

Anyways, all I know is that I have observed acupuncture work in dogs as a last resort with skeptical owners for specific issues (overnight urinary/bowell incontinence, granulomas due to licking/chewing related to allergies, and stereotypical behaviors compartive to OCD.) I don't know if it is by placebo affect or not, and in these cases I know it was a last resort with the other option under consideration is euthanasia. I guess in vet med it is a bit easier; if the choice is death/destruction or trying a 'questionable' treatment, I can assume the questionable treatment is a better choice if it isn't doing harm. One interesting thing to me is that it is hard for dogs to 'lie' about overnight incontinance, or extreme stereotypy....they are 0/1 disorders that either exist in a given increment or they don't. And I doubt belief of the patient matters (and in my observation, owner skepticism isn't a problem.) I am not saying it is the right treatment, or should be substituted for other treatments, but that doesn't mean, even if it is a placebo affect, that it should be taken off the table. I would assume a patient experiencing nausea as a side effect from treatment would care less if it is a placebo effect of an actual effect as long as they feel relief.

 

[ATR]

Wow, I don't think we can get certified in 200 hours in vet med. I think it is at least a year.

Anyways, all I know is that I have observed acupuncture work in dogs as a last resort with skeptical owners for specific issues (overnight urinary/bowell incontinence, granulomas due to licking/chewing related to allergies, and stereotypical behaviors compartive to OCD.) I don't know if it is by placebo affect or not, and in these cases I know it was a last resort with the other option under consideration is euthanasia. I guess in vet med it is a bit easier; if the choice is death/destruction or trying a 'questionable' treatment, I can assume the questionable treatment is a better choice if it isn't doing harm. One interesting thing to me is that it is hard for dogs to 'lie' about overnight incontinance, or extreme stereotypy....they are 0/1 disorders that either exist in a given increment or they don't. And I doubt belief of the patient matters (and in my observation, owner skepticism isn't a problem.) I am not saying it is the right treatment, or should be substituted for other treatments, but that doesn't mean, even if it is a placebo affect, that it should be taken off the table. I would assume a patient experiencing nausea as a side effect from treatment would care less if it is a placebo effect of an actual effect as long as they feel relief.

Can you imagine if the placebo effect with acupuncture actually WERE observed in animals separate from regression to the mean? That would imply a belief system on their part regarding acupuncture, or a conscious recognition that the person poking them with needles was there to make them feel better. I wonder if this has been attempted, even with drug vs. sugar pill. It's not hard to blind an animal to intervention.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

ah love the demagoguery.

There is not exactly a lot of evidence for qi and thus for the underpinning of traditional acupuncture.

However, there is a lot of evidence for the sticking of a needle and pain relief, or indeed the sticking of a pointy thing into a person whether or not it penetrates the epidermis.

We even understand some of the mechanisms quite well. The release of monoamines or endogenous peptides, or in the case of trigger points, resetting the 'short-circuit' so to speak of a section of muscle in painful spasm.

The evidence is actually pretty strong for pain and musculoskeletal issues.

As a slightly more overarching conclusion, I find it hilarious when allopathic physicans (and I am one...newly minted lol) get all high and mighty about pain and musculoskeletal issues. Clearly the better solution is to break out the opioids and make lifelong addicts out of people. We have such a good track record when it comes to that. Not to mention our basic education in the neurophysiology of pain and musculoskeletal function is top notch (that was sarcasm btw).

I will recommend trials of acupuncture for certain conditions, as well as long-lever, myofascial, and muscle energy manipulation for my patients. Because you know what? It makes a hell of a lot more sense than half the crap we do.

 

[sumstorm]

Can you imagine if the placebo effect with acupuncture actually WERE observed in animals separate from regression to the mean? That would imply a belief system on their part regarding acupuncture, or a conscious recognition that the person poking them with needles was there to make them feel better. I wonder if this has been attempted, even with drug vs. sugar pill. It's not hard to blind an animal to intervention.

I have thought of this. The funny thing with dogs is that they don't even seem to notice the needles, even spinning and tapping them. The argument I have heard is that the dogs are responding to concentrated doses of attention.

 

[Pandacinny]

Here's a blog post on the efficacy of animal accupuncture:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=519

Definitely not an unbiased source, but possibly a good jumping off point for people who are interested in the topic.

 

[LAcDPT2be]

I found this bit of info interesting, and true in my scope of practice, as well: there really isn't a placebo effect when it comes to needles or points. There are close to 400 "measurable" points (600 if you include the category we call "extra points") on the body. And (getting a little hippie dippy on you) each point has a "blast radius", for lack of better words, so really, pick a spot, it's a point along the 12 main meridians, an extra point, or an ashi point....you get my point 🙂

 

[ATR]

I found this bit of info interesting, and true in my scope of practice, as well: there really isn't a placebo effect when it comes to needles or points. There are close to 400 "measurable" points (600 if you include the category we call "extra points") on the body. And (getting a little hippie dippy on you) each point has a "blast radius", for lack of better words, so really, pick a spot, it's a point along the 12 main meridians, an extra point, or an ashi point....you get my point 🙂

Then how do you explain that the majority of studies which compare individualized pattern differentiation-type point prescription treatments show no increased benefit therapeutically when compared with non-indicated points? For an example, see Themistocles' reference above to the Archives of Internal Medicine article. This is a common finding, and one of the more challenging for those supporting the use of traditional theory for point selection, or arguing individual point specificity.

 

[LAcDPT2be]

I would begin by stating that acupuncture isn't just indiviualized by the patient symptoms, it's also how the practitioner decides to treat you. There are a number of points that overlap in indications. Said selected points can be local or distal (for example there's a point beside the 5th metacarpal that helps relive shoulder pain), and until someone understands that there's more than one (or 10) way(s) to treat shoulder pain most studies will continue to find that "sham acupuncture" works. The more probable conclusion is that they had luck with more treatment combinations than they expected.

It's easy to do when someone doesn't completely understanding that LBP can be caused by a few different diagnoses in the TCM spectrum, and then perhaps hundreds of treatment plans that may be useful, but several are more useful.
"Although acupuncture was found effective for chronic low back pain, tailoring needling sites to each patient and penetration of the skin appear to be unimportant in eliciting therapeutic benefits."
Speaking simply- there's more than one way to treat LBP- whether it's with a needle, toothpick, or your fingers- the qi is being manipulated no matter what. The issue I have with this study is the same I have with most: The failure to realize that TCM isn't meant to be measured by conventional medicine. Of course you're not going to find and solid evidence/ "truth". It's an energetic form of medicine first and foremost. It was formulated and continues to be practiced without conventional medicine in mind. and it should be measured in that context. (Naturally we now take into account western prescription drugs, surgeries, pacemakers, etc. and either work with or around it)
Until someone finds a way to conduct studies that's satisfactory to both schools of medicine, studies like the one Themistocles refers to holds no weight in your practice or in mine.

 

[ATR]

I would begin by stating that acupuncture isn't just indiviualized by the patient symptoms, it's also how the practitioner decides to treat you. There are a number of points that overlap in indications. Said selected points can be local or distal (for example there's a point beside the 5th metacarpal that helps relive shoulder pain), and until someone understands that there's more than one (or 10) way(s) to treat shoulder pain most studies will continue to find that "sham acupuncture" works. The more probable conclusion is that they had luck with more treatment combinations than they expected.

It's easy to do when someone doesn't completely understanding that LBP can be caused by a few different diagnoses in the TCM spectrum, and then perhaps hundreds of treatment plans that may be useful, but several are more useful.
"Although acupuncture was found effective for chronic low back pain, tailoring needling sites to each patient and penetration of the skin appear to be unimportant in eliciting therapeutic benefits."
Speaking simply- there's more than one way to treat LBP- whether it's with a needle, toothpick, or your fingers- the qi is being manipulated no matter what. The issue I have with this study is the same I have with most: The failure to realize that TCM isn't meant to be measured by conventional medicine. Of course you're not going to find and solid evidence/ "truth". It's an energetic form of medicine first and foremost. It was formulated and continues to be practiced without conventional medicine in mind. and it should be measured in that context. (Naturally we now take into account western prescription drugs, surgeries, pacemakers, etc. and either work with or around it)
Until someone finds a way to conduct studies that's satisfactory to both schools of medicine, studies like the one Themistocles refers to holds no weight in your practice or in mine.

I think we may justs have different philosophical approaches regarding this topic, and I can respect that. I understand individualized treatments (I'm an L.Ac. in CA) and I think the Arch Int Med study above did a good job of following the rapidly improving guidelines for conducting acupuncture research which respects both research principles and clinical practice. For example, the point selection for the group receiving individualized treatments was limited only by a TCM approach and points accessible with the patient lying prone (as one would do clinically). I also believe that "truth" for both conventional and complementary approaches are ultimately judged by the same standards: safety and effectiveness for sick people. Finally, and perhaps most fundamentally for our perspectives, I view qi and classical theory as a heuristic or metaphor which has evolved from vast empirical evidence which allows us to shortcut from sick person to treatment, bypassing the underlying physiological/energetic/psycho-emotional processes which we don't yet understand in detail. We have only recently begun to see how distal effects can be observed from needle penetration and stimulation.

In any case, I'm getting theoretical and we're relatively far off the OP's question. I hope they got some benefit from the discussion which ensued.

 

[LAcDPT2be]

I think we may justs have different philosophical approaches regarding this topic, and I can respect that. I understand individualized treatments (I'm an L.Ac. in CA) and I think the Arch Int Med study above did a good job of following the rapidly improving guidelines for conducting acupuncture research which respects both research principles and clinical practice. For example, the point selection for the group receiving individualized treatments was limited only by a TCM approach and points accessible with the patient lying prone (as one would do clinically). I also believe that "truth" for both conventional and complementary approaches are ultimately judged by the same standards: safety and effectiveness for sick people. Finally, and perhaps most fundamentally for our perspectives, I view qi and classical theory as a heuristic or metaphor which has evolved from vast empirical evidence which allows us to shortcut from sick person to treatment, bypassing the underlying physiological/energetic/psycho-emotional processes which we don't yet understand in detail. We have only recently begun to see how distal effects can be observed from needle penetration and stimulation.

In any case, I'm getting theoretical and we're relatively far off the OP's question. I hope they got some benefit from the discussion which ensued.

I hope the OP does get some benefit- it does seem that we have different philosophies and it makes me happy to have encountered an L.Ac on this forum! I will look back on this when I graduate and see if my strong views on classical theory still dominate the way I practice. I'm still trying to figure out if I want to tackle the idea of Leon Hammer's book on shen disturbances. Happy New Year everyone!

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Finally, and perhaps most fundamentally for our perspectives, I view qi and classical theory as a heuristic or metaphor which has evolved from vast empirical evidence which allows us to shortcut from sick person to treatment, bypassing the underlying physiological/energetic/psycho-emotional processes which we don't yet understand in detail.

Wurd.

 

[zenman]

I view qi and classical theory as a heuristic or metaphor which has evolved from vast empirical evidence which allows us to shortcut from sick person to treatment, bypassing the underlying physiological/energetic/psycho-emotional processes which we don't yet understand in detail.

Agree...and the beauty of it all is that it explains a lot with a two letter word.

 

[sumstorm]

Here's a blog post on the efficacy of animal accupuncture:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=519

Definitely not an unbiased source, but possibly a good jumping off point for people who are interested in the topic.

I am not debating history or any of that, and I already admit to basing this on my experiences with client animals, so limited anecdotal sample. I also am not basing anything on qualitative functions; a dog either urinates on itself overnight or doesn't. However, anyone reading this should know there are other inaccuracies about percentages, certifications and board specialties, so the writer probably needed to do a bit more research. One huge inaccuracy is that acupuncture is in the process of becoming a board certified specialty. Along with sports medicine (which may have completed procedures this year), Shelter Medicine, and Exotic Pets. I also saw the complaint about horses as interesting; just as anyone can write an article about acupuncture in vet med, anyone can write a book. The charts I have access to don't have the same points in a horse as a dog or a cat.

 

[prabax]

Acupuncture,any one could use it rite now?

 

[facetguy]

Hmmm, anyone 'round these parts heard tell of something called a placebo effect?

The placebo thing seems to be working just fine for antidepressants, but that just so happens to be a multibillion dollar market, so we can expect that to get a pass.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/303/1/47?home