Adcoms: How often does a secondary truly influence a student's interview/admission odds?

[perusingdoc]

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I have heard that 90% of personal statements have no effect, 5% are red flags, and 5% make an applicant memorable/likely to be interviewed.

Since secondary essays are often much less open-ended and personal, do they often change your opinion on an applicant? I have to imagine that incoherent or clearly thoughtless secondaries can hurt an applicant much more than a well-written piece can help an applicant. Do you find that the opinion you form by looking at stats and reading the PS is generally the opinion you keep? Are you often surprised or inclined to change your mind while reading secondaries? Just asking for fun. Thanks!

 

[LizzyM]

I have heard that 90% of personal statements have no effect, 5% are red flags, and 5% make an applicant memorable/likely to be interviewed.

That's sound about right. When you consider that we interview about 12% of applicants, the 5% who are memorable plus just over 7% of that pool (90% of all applicants) who are okay but not great, you can see that memorable applicants having a strong chance of being interviewed while the rest have a very slim chance of making the cut.

 

[perusingdoc]

That's sound about right. When you consider that we interview about 12% of applicants, the 5% who are memorable plus just over 7% of that pool (90% of all applicants) who are okay but not great, you can see that memorable applicants having a strong chance of being interviewed while the rest have a very slim chance of making the cut.

Interesting. Thank you!

 

[Goro]

I have heard that 90% of personal statements have no effect, 5% are red flags, and 5% make an applicant memorable/likely to be interviewed.

Since secondary essays are often much less open-ended and personal, do they often change your opinion on an applicant? I have to imagine that incoherent or clearly thoughtless secondaries can hurt an applicant much more than a well-written piece can help an applicant. Do you find that the opinion you form by looking at stats and reading the PS is generally the opinion you keep? Are you often surprised or inclined to change your mind while reading secondaries? Just asking for fun. Thanks!

Let me give you two examples:

1) Prompt: Why our school?
Applicant: [99% of essay here]...and that's why I wish to attend XSOM.

Except I'm not at XSOM.

2) Prompt: Why our school?
Applicant: [Merely copies and pastes what we have in our mission statement and never once bothered to look over the rest of our website]

 

[perusingdoc]

Let me give you two examples:

So are the applicants who do neither of these in the minority?

 

[LizzyM]

So are the applicants who do neither of these in the minority?

Yes, those would be two examples of applicants we might not bother to interview.

 

[Zuggelder]

That's sound about right. When you consider that we interview about 12% of applicants, the 5% who are memorable plus just over 7% of that pool (90% of all applicants) who are okay but not great, you can see that memorable applicants having a strong chance of being interviewed while the rest have a very slim chance of making the cut.

@LizzyM, is your analysis assuming that every memorable personal statement (5%) makes it to the interview group (12%)? I'm guessing that not every top 5% personal statement also has good stats and good ECs along with it to warrant an interview.

 

[LizzyM]

@LizzyM, is your analysis assuming that every memorable personal statement (5%) makes it to the interview group (12%)? I'm guessing that not every top 5% personal statement also has good stats and good ECs along with it to warrant an interview.

OK, let's say 80% of that top 5%... That would still leave a small proportion of the meh pool getting an interview offer.... and remember, only 12% of the applicants are getting interviewed, it is just disproportionately those who write impressive secondary essays that make you say, "we need to talk to this person -- this past experience, attitude, particular interest etc is wonderful!"

 

[Chromiumite]

OK, let's say 80% of that top 5%... That would still leave a small proportion of the meh pool getting an interview offer.... and remember, only 12% of the applicants are getting interviewed, it is just disproportionately those who write impressive secondary essays that make you say, "we need to talk to this person -- this past experience, attitude, particular interest etc is wonderful!"

By any chance, can you say some of the things that really caught your attention? No need for identifying details but I'm just curious. I feel like I'm pretty set with competing in the Jr. Olympics but I was curious what other incredible things people have done

 

[viralhiker]

By any chance, can you say some of the things that really caught your attention? No need for identifying details but I'm just curious. I feel like I'm pretty set with competing in the Jr. Olympics but I was curious what other incredible things people have done

Not speaking for the adcoms, but you shouldn't imagine it as a competition to have the coolest or most incredible experience. Nor should you feel 'set' that you have one really interesting line in your work/activity section.

Nothing in my background was particularly outstanding or fantastic. But I was reflective, had a coherent story and reason for pursuing medicine, and my essays were well-written. Those are the goals you should be shooting for in your application (aside from obvious academic excellence and other basic requirements).

 

[Chromiumite]

Not speaking for the adcoms, but you shouldn't imagine it as a competition to have the coolest or most incredible experience. Nor should you feel 'set' that you have one really interesting line in your work/activity section.

Nothing in my background was particularly outstanding or fantastic. But I was reflective, had a coherent story and reason for pursuing medicine, and my essays were well-written. Those are the goals you should be shooting for in your application (aside from obvious academic excellence and other basic requirements).

I mean, I wasn't competing. I'm really happy with the things I've done that make me, me. I am however, just curious to know what spectacular other things other people have done. It would just give me a perspective about the world that I hadn't known about, yk?

 

[gyngyn]

On the edge of a decision, secondary responses are important.

 

[LizzyM]

One secondary response I remember after many years involved a creative response to losing a passport and wallet to a pickpocket in Spain. The other I remember (less fondly) involved describing in 300 words a reaction to being cut off in traffic that took maybe 3 seconds to execute.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Not an adcom but I think that essays for undergrad admissions play a bigger role than secondary responses do for medical school.

My sat and gpa were good but ECs in high school were no where near being good enough for HYPSM tier schools. I’m still convinced that my common app/supplemental essays + letters of recommendation played a huge role in my acceptance. Now, despite writing good secondaries, I am 0/41 on IIs.

I would say that there is likely less room for creativity in secondary essays. In undergrad admissions, you can write novelistic prose whereas on secondaries it is better to be on the formal side.

 

[YeeOldeMillenial]

Thank you to the OP and everyone participating in this interesting thread. I wrote my heart out for my secondaries, and it's nice to be reminded that a real person is going to read them and that they can matter. Sometimes it's hard to remember that we are more than our GPA + MCAT and this helps.

 

[perusingdoc]

Yes, it's nice to think that sometime this week a real person will probably be glancing through my writing.

Thank you for the great examples Goro and LizzyM. I'm sure sometimes being on the committee is wonderful, but some of that writing sounds treacherous!

 

[viralhiker]

Now, despite writing good secondaries, I am 0/41 on IIs.

It’s barely the middle of August. It’s still super early. I received all of my IIs between September and February of last year.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I was complete most places early July though. I could see if I just applied

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I was complete most places early July though. I could see if I just applied

It appears schools use GPA/MCAT cutoffs and URM and any other special categories they have for initial interview invitations.

 

[viralhiker]

I was complete most places early July though. I could see if I just applied

That has nothing to do with it. See @gonnif’s point that the order applications get sent to schools has little bearing on the order in which they review them.

It is way, waaay too early for you to stress about not receiving interview invites.

 

[LizzyM]

I was complete most places early July though. I could see if I just applied.

Many of us are reading applications 7 days per week but we are slow in making a dent in the flood of applications that arrive in July. The backlog is astounding.... 25% of the applications arrive on day 1 and the rest come shortly thereafter with just a trickle later in the season. Even if we allow 20 weeks (roughly the length of the college football season from pre-season to bowl games) for reviews, it will take 5 weeks to get through the first 25% and after 10 weeks we still have half under review.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Many of us are reading applications 7 days per week but we are slow in making a dent in the flood of applications that arrive in July. The backlog is astounding.... 25% of the applications arrive on day 1 and the rest come shortly thereafter with just a trickle later in the season. Even if we allow 20 weeks (roughly the length of the college football season from pre-season to bowl games) for reviews, it will take 5 weeks to get through the first 25% and after 10 weeks we still have half under review.

That makes sense. Thanks for the insight. Is covid delaying the cycle again or is it back to normal pace. I think when I applied before, I already had interviews scheduled through thanksgiving. Is it possible that the red flag is either pushing me back in line to be reviewed or perhaps my application is getting sent to deans of admissions/general counsel to review before moving forward? Because before I would assume that I was in the first cohort, since a fair amount of interviews came in July/august

 

[Goro]

Is it possible that the red flag is either pushing me back in line to be reviewed or perhaps my application is getting sent to deans of admissions/general counsel to review before moving forward? Because before I would assume that I was in the first cohort, since a fair amount of interviews came in July/august

RE: the bolded: absolutely, as you have been told multiple times before, by multiple Adcom members.

Schools stratify the apps as they come in and don't send out secondaries or IIs merely in chronological order.

Secondaries are often a tax on the hopelessly naïve, if not pathologically optimistic.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

RE: the bolded: absolutely, as you have been told multiple times before, by multiple Adcom members.

Schools stratify the apps as they come in and don't send out secondaries or IIs merely in chronological order.

Secondaries are often a tax on the hopelessly naïve, if not pathologically optimistic.

Is getting secondaries from schools that are known to holistic screen (ie. UCSF apparently sends secondaries to 1/3 of applicants) and or waitlists to interview a sign that my application might not be DOA. Why would they bother waitlisting me or sending a secondary when they have already sent out pre-II rejections?

 

[coramDeo]

Is getting secondaries from schools that are known to holistic screen (ie. UCSF apparently sends secondaries to 1/3 of applicants) and or waitlists to interview a sign that my application might not be DOA. Why would they bother waitlisting me or sending a secondary when they have already sent out pre-II rejections?

I think you're searching for an absolute answer but I don't think there is one... If you're waitlisted for an interview/on hold/received secondaries, at least for that school you're probably not DOA. But that doesn't mean that your app won't be DOA at other schools that you applied to.

The only thing you can really do right now is just to sit tight, enjoy the last couple of weeks of summer. Even if you knew the answers to your questions, nothing will change/can be changed. So rather than coming up with more questions that could add to your stress, I'd just try to hold on at least until Thanksgiving. It's not even halfway into August after all.

 

[KnightDoc]

Is getting secondaries from schools that are known to holistic screen (ie. UCSF apparently sends secondaries to 1/3 of applicants) and or waitlists to interview a sign that my application might not be DOA. Why would they bother waitlisting me or sending a secondary when they have already sent out pre-II rejections?

Because it doesn't cost them anything to send you a secondary or put your application aside. When they send you an II, that will tell you that @Goro is wrong and you are in the game, because an II is a finite resource, and sending one to you means they didn't send one to someone else. They would never do that if you weren't under serious consideration. Merely receiving a secondary or being put on hold for a possible II is absolutely not in the same league.

And, don't believe what you are hearing about UCSF culling 2/3 of their applicants pre-secondary. They are still pains in the butt when it comes to dribbling out those secondaries, but I'm pretty sure, like Vandy, the 1/3 cut goes the other way, and 1/3 do not receive a secondary. Why would they deny themselves all those fees and make such a drastic cut up front? If it were true, their reported II rate would be much higher, since not returning a secondary excludes you from even being considered for an II.

 

[perusingdoc]

Secondaries are often a tax on the hopelessly naïve, if not pathologically optimistic.

Eloquently put. I may have to borrow this from you.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

True but my positions on WL could go to somebody else.

This is likely cognitive dissonance though.

two choices, only one can be true:
1. 0/40 something on IIs
2. App is good enough to get into medical school

I don’t want to accept the impossibility of the second postulate so I’m trying to contrive a situation in which #1 and #2 can both be true.

Because it doesn't cost them anything to send you a secondary or put your application aside. When they send you an II, that will tell you that @Goro is wrong and you are in the game, because an II is a finite resource, and sending one to you means they didn't send one to someone else. They would never do that if you weren't under serious consideration. Merely receiving a secondary or being put on hold for a possible II is absolutely not in the same league.

And, don't believe what you are hearing about UCSF culling 2/3 of their applicants pre-secondary. They are still pains in the butt when it comes to dribbling out those secondaries, but I'm pretty sure, like Vandy, the 1/3 cut goes the other way, and 1/3 do not receive a secondary. Why would they deny themselves all those fees and make such a drastic cut up front? If it were true, their reported II rate would be much higher, since not returning a secondary excludes you from even being considered for an II.

 

[KnightDoc]

True but my positions on WL could go to somebody else.

This is likely cognitive dissonance though.

two choices, only one can be true:
1. 0/40 something on IIs
2. App is good enough to get into medical school

I don’t want to accept the impossibility of the second postulate so I’m trying to contrive a situation in which #1 and #2 can both be true.

I think we're talking past each other a little bit. Positions on WLs are unlimited, so, no, your positions on holds to maybe be granted an II would not need to go to someone else like an II would. Theoretically, everyone could be placed on hold before either getting an II or not.

As for #2, you know damn well that your app is good enough, so it's not an impossibility. If something is going to keep you out, you know exactly what it is, and it has nothing to do with being good enough.

My advice, which I am very well aware is very easy to give and very hard to take, is to try to relax and just see what happens. You took your best shot and it's out of your hands now. Constantly stressing, and posting on all the school specific threads, acting as though you are in the exact same position as everyone else who still hasn't heard, isn't going to manifest an II.

Either someone is going to be blown away by your application and is going to get past your IA, or they won't. There really is nothing else to do but let it play out.

The fallacy you are indulging is winding yourself into a frenzy by thinking that #1 is written in stone the second week of August. It isn't. Not for anyone. Many, many, many people who have zero IIs today will have multiple IIs by the end of October, and still others after that.

This might or might not apply to you, but that's because you are a very special case, and you know it. Pretending your app is like everyone else's, and then freaking about it endlessly, on 40 different school specific threads, doesn't help anyone, least of all you.

Why not just focus on using your knowledge to give advice to those who need it for a few weeks, and give the adcoms a chance to review your file, rather than assuming the worst because you are not in the first few waves of IIs? TBH, under the circumstances, it was unrealistic to ever expect that might be the case, regardless of what happened in prior cycles.

I'm praying for you. I'm also praying for you to get it together, because we are only 7 weeks into this, and I can't imagine how you are going to make it to the end at this rate. 😎

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not an adcom but I think that essays for undergrad admissions play a bigger role than secondary responses do for medical school.

My sat and gpa were good but ECs in high school were no where near being good enough for HYPSM tier schools. I’m still convinced that my common app/supplemental essays + letters of recommendation played a huge role in my acceptance. Now, despite writing good secondaries, I am 0/41 on IIs.

I would say that there is likely less room for creativity in secondary essays. In undergrad admissions, you can write novelistic prose whereas on secondaries it is better to be on the formal side.

I can tell you at my school, the secondary is quite important.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

I can tell you at my school, the secondary is quite important.

I mean tbf your school is fairly special/different

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I mean tbf your school is fairly special/different

True but it’s def not the only school with a mission.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

What percentage of applicants who apply in July have an II by now?

 

[GreenDuck12]

What percentage of applicants who apply in July have an II by now?

N= 1 but I was complete at my program end of September and had an interview invite 5 days later for november. Time of submission really isn’t everything.

With the red flags in your application, you should not expect to be in the first or even second wave of interview invites. It simply is not in the cards. There are hundreds of applicants with the same stats who do not pose as big a risk as you do. You need to pray that you get an opportunity to interview before the end of the cycle. If you are fortunate enough to receive one, you have to hit it out of the park. Per your comment on the other post, I would fully expect an admissions committee to fully vet your application and contact folks about you. The risk is simply to great for them to accept your application at face value without doing their due diligence.

As I wrote before, it’s time to develop some health coping strategies and stop posting/tracking who is getting invites from what program in what order with what stats. That way lies madness.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Best to be up front with your employer about applying

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I don’t think I’ll be going so it’s probably best to just prepare for another careeer path

 

[deleted555445]

What percentage of applicants who apply in July have an II by now?

FYI I was complete most places mid July and I don't have an II. One R from the alma mater lol. But I also have a red flag, a low GPA that has been increased recently with a post-bacc and buttressed by a good MCAT. So I'm expecting there is additional scrutiny on my app/it is deprioritized a little. I'm not planning to worry for a while... hopefully I'll hear from somewhere soon, but this is a long process

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

But aren’t you applying MD-PhD. Those are much harder to get than MD alone iirc

 

[deleted555445]

But aren’t you applying MD-PhD. Those are much harder to get than MD alone iirc

Nope just straight MD, occasionally MD/MPH

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Good luck!

 

[KnightDoc]

I don’t think I’ll be going so it’s probably best to just prepare for another careeer path

Exactly. So why are you asking about sending updates regarding your other career, and pondering mentioning the prestigious firm by name, and then being concerned about the teeny tiny chance that a school might reach out to them and screw that up for you?

TBH, I love you, find your posts very entertaining, and really hope things work out well for you. But you should understand that your posts are so all over the place that it's difficult for the reader to discern what are genuine questions or concerns, and what are intentionally provocative posts designed merely to elicit reactions.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Well it’s somewhat of a heuristic, similar to why T20 schools likely prefer applicants from top undergrads. The premise being that if one can land a front-office job at a selective firm or get into a good undergrad school, they are likely to be already “vetted” to a certain extent.

also, in the eyes of Adcoms, it’s probably better to be doing something while not in school than to be doing nothing

 

[GreenDuck12]

Well it’s somewhat of a heuristic, similar to why T20 schools likely prefer applicants from top undergrads. The premise being that if one can land a front-office job at a selective firm or get into a good undergrad school, they are likely to be already “vetted” to a certain extent.

Lol.