Adcoms Quess Ethnicity from Photo

[Dbate]

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I had a discussion with a friend about this topic.

I'm black and at the beginning of the app cycle I chose not to put my ethnicity down on my application because I wanted to get into med school just based on hard work.

A friend mentioned that it wouldn't matter because the admissions committees would know your ethnicity from the photo you have to submit with applications. Would admissions committees do this? And if you don't list your ethnicity, doesn't that mean they are not allowed to report it in their demographic descriptions of the entering class?

Could admissions committee members answer this?

Do admissions committees look at photos and guess the applicant's ethnicity?

 

[NickNaylor]

I'm pretty sure this exact question has been asked before. The thread went the direction you would pretty much expect.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

 

[WaterIsGood]

Good god

 

[Dbate]

I'm pretty sure this exact question has been asked before. The thread went the direction you would pretty much expect.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Really? I looked through past threads and I didn't find it.

 

[cookiemonsters]

I'm sure schools that can see your photo would count you as black even if you chose not to disclose your race. But only a few places ask for photos. Grats on earning your UTSW acceptance.

 

[IncognitoGuy]

In before URM debate.

Also OP - put yourself in their shoes. How could you not include race into your mental picture of an applicant, especially when a photo is present? Things aren't so black and white.

 

[xroc]

In before URM debate.

Also OP - put yourself in their shoes. How could you not include race into your mental picture of an applicant, especially when a photo is present? Things aren't so black and white.

I see what you did there ...

 

[DokterMom]

Your numbers are excellent Dbate, and you can absolutely rest assured knowing it was your top-notch qualifications that got you into a top 20 medical school. UTSW generally follows some LizzieM score-based rules when issuing IIs for in-state applicants, so it's highly likely (though you'll never know for sure) that the decision to invite you for an interview was made without even looking at your photo, or was 95% made before looking at your photo. But in your interview, it's pretty certain that they noticed your race, likely that they noted it in your file, and probably even discussed the fact that you did not claim URM status when discussing your application. If I were on the ADCOM, the conclusion I would have drawn from that combination of facts is that you clearly did not want any preferential treatment and wanted to stand on your own merits. (Confident? or Arrogant? hmm...?) Of course, you had the qualifications to stand on.

You're realistic enough to know that the world isn't color blind and that people make sweeping assumptions about others based on whatever information they have to work with. It's how the human brain works and one of the mechanisms that allows us to think and react quickly. More often than not, this mental categorization helps us. The general assumption of UTSW medical students will be that they are highly intelligent, highly capable people, but the ignorant and narrow-minded will always make assumptions that reflect their own prejudices. There will always be some that will assume your URM status helped get you in, and you'll have to either :

1. prove yourself over and over, or
   
2. decide that you don't have anything to prove to anyone and learn to live with the self-assurance that you earned this opportunity and are worthy of it.

Your call. And one you'll get to make over and over for another few decades probably. The pace of social change is never fast enough.

For now, just enjoy your acceptance, knowing that you earned it and deserve it, and also knowing that if the race card was played, it was not played by you.

 

[histidine]

Dbate, if you wanted to remain racially anonymous, you should have done this:

1) Convert photo to black and white
2) Duplicate
3) Invert the colors on one copy
4) Send in a side by side pair of the portraits.


That way you would have had a white picture of yourself with a black background, and a black picture of yourself with a white background.

 

[KnuxNole]

Or you could put a shadow silhouette of yourself with a question mark. Only way to know your face is to invite for an interview!

 

[nemo123]

Dbate, if you wanted to remain racially anonymous, you should have done this:

1) Convert photo to black and white
2) Duplicate
3) Invert the colors on one copy
4) Send in a side by side pair of the portraits.


That way you would have had a white picture of yourself with a black background, and a black picture of yourself with a white background.

Hmm that's a smart way to do it... Never thought it like that lol.

 

[Dbate]

Your numbers are excellent Dbate, and you can absolutely rest assured knowing it was your top-notch qualifications that got you into a top 20 medical school. UTSW generally follows some LizzieM score-based rules when issuing IIs for in-state applicants, so it's highly likely (though you'll never know for sure) that the decision to invite you for an interview was made without even looking at your photo, or was 95% made before looking at your photo. But in your interview, it's pretty certain that they noticed your race, likely that they noted it in your file, and probably even discussed the fact that you did not claim URM status when discussing your application. If I were on the ADCOM, the conclusion I would have drawn from that combination of facts is that you clearly did not want any preferential treatment and wanted to stand on your own merits. (Confident? or Arrogant? hmm...?) Of course, you had the qualifications to stand on.

You're realistic enough to know that the world isn't color blind and that people make sweeping assumptions about others based on whatever information they have to work with. It's how the human brain works and one of the mechanisms that allows us to think and react quickly. More often than not, this mental categorization helps us. The general assumption of UTSW medical students will be that they are highly intelligent, highly capable people, but the ignorant and narrow-minded will always make assumptions that reflect their own prejudices. There will always be some that will assume your URM status helped get you in, and you'll have to either :

1. prove yourself over and over, or
   
2. decide that you don't have anything to prove to anyone and learn to live with the self-assurance that you earned this opportunity and are worthy of it.

Your call. And one you'll get to make over and over for another few decades probably. The pace of social change is never fast enough.

For now, just enjoy your acceptance, knowing that you earned it and deserve it, and also knowing that if the race card was played, it was not played by you.

I'm not really worried about my qualifications for med school.

I got a really early interview (in Sept.) at Baylor with a lower AMCAS gpa, and they don't ask for a photo until after you have been invited for an interview. So my numbers are fine.

From a more theoretical perspective, though, is it the norm for adcoms to ask for photos for race purposes? That's the real question.

 

[darkjedi]

Quess sounds like a name to a crappy cologne

 

[DokterMom]

From a more theoretical perspective, though, is it the norm for adcoms to ask for photos for race purposes? That's the real question.

That may be part of the reason, but I think it's more that they want to be able to connect the face and personality they interviewed with the stats they're looking at when they discuss whether or not to make an offer of acceptance.


Dbate - Are you asking if the school will / will be able to count you as a URM applicant if you did not self-identify as such? And /or suggest that they shouldn't be able to?

 

[Dbate]

That may be part of the reason, but I think it's more that they want to be able to connect the face and personality they interviewed with the stats they're looking at when they discuss whether or not to make an offer of acceptance.


Dbate - Are you asking if the school will / will be able to count you as a URM applicant if you did not self-identify as such? And /or suggest that they shouldn't be able to?

Yes, when they report the statistics how do they classify individuals that do not report ethnicity?

 

[DokterMom]

Schools are looking to increase diversity - particularly for URMs, so I'd be surprised if someone didn't 'check the box' for you -- though not from the photo, probably.
Maybe not the first year, when you're still a 'faceless piece of paper' to the administrative staff, but medical school classes are small enough and black students are still uncommon enough that someone is likely to notice if you're not being 'counted' in what's probably a single-digit number...

When you look at a school's racial diversity statistics and see 'Other' or 'Not Reported', what do you assume?

 

[Dbate]

Schools are looking to increase diversity - particularly for URMs, so I'd be surprised if someone didn't 'check the box' for you -- though not from the photo, probably.
Maybe not the first year, when you're still a 'faceless piece of paper' to the administrative staff, but medical school classes are small enough and black students are still uncommon enough that someone is likely to notice if you're not being 'counted' in what's probably a single-digit number...

When you look at a school's racial diversity statistics and see 'Other' or 'Not Reported', what do you assume?

I just thought it included the people that didn't report their ethnicity. But i don't know for sure because I'm just an applicant.

 

[Narmerguy]

It would be pretty difficult (and possibly offensive) for an adcom to state your race/ethnicity in various statistics without your input. Many people who appear dark do not identify as black, and many people who are darker do not identify as white, etc. Some people look hispanic but aren't, some people are mixed race but only associate with one side. Race is as much a personal choice as it is a social one.

That said, I'm confused why you feel the need to scrub your application of something which might preferentially benefit your chances. Some people benefit on the basis of a personal anecdote they tell in their application that happened to resonate with an adcom (dying parent, bizarre encounter, unfortunate accident, etc). Some people benefit on the basis of the prestige of the university they attended, regardless of their performance in other areas (MCAT, ECs, research, etc). Some people benefit from the familial or geographical background. People benefit for a whole variety of reasons, and there's little sense trying to pick out which you "deserve" and which you don't.

Do your best, put your best image forward, and move on. People internalize these decisions way too much as if they are some kind of mark of one's worth or "merit" in life. They're not, they're decisions on how to fill a medical school, and schools choose to do this as they see fit. Don't read more into it than that.

 

[LizzyM]

My school asks for a photo but does not make it available to those of us who review applications and recommend applicants for interview. It is provided to the interviewers to help them identify the applicant who comes in for an interview and to jog their memory as they write up the interview report. Other than that, we don't look at portraits/photos.

 

[Catalystik]

Other than that, we don't look at portraits/photos.

At my institution, even our interviewers are not provided with a photo.

 

[LizzyM]

At my institution, even our interviewers are not provided with a photo.

Do you interview the applicant from behind a screen like a symphony audition? 😉

 

[Catalystik]

Do you interview the applicant from behind a screen like a symphony audition? 😉

Nah. We have high-tech rotating chairs that spin around to face the applicant after you form an initial impression, like on "The Voice." 😀

 

[ChemEngMD]

Oh no!!
Dbate won't be able to feel higher and mightier than the rest of the URMs if they see his picture!!! 🙄

I don't get why this is of any importance to you? Do you not want future black students attending your institution to know the accurate number of black students at the school? It is important for many of us applying to apply to schools with baseline levels of diversity...I don't understand why you wouldn't want yourself being counted among the diversity ranks.

 

[Dbate]

Oh no!!
Dbate won't be able to feel higher and mightier than the rest of the URMs if they see his picture!!! 🙄

Um, okay.

 

[cookiemonsters]

Do you not want future black students attending your institution to know the accurate number of black students at the school? It is important for many of us applying to apply to schools with baseline levels of diversity...

Every medical school is required to maintain a baseline level of URM's to keep their accreditation.

 

[The Buff OP]

Oh no!!
Dbate won't be able to feel higher and mightier than the rest of the URMs if they see his picture!!! 🙄

I don't get why this is of any importance to you? Do you not want future black students attending your institution to know the accurate number of black students at the school? It is important for many of us applying to apply to schools with baseline levels of diversity...I don't understand why you wouldn't want yourself being counted among the diversity ranks.

For real we should be proud of our ethnicity. Es como los de cara de nopal que dicen que no hablan el Español que no son Hispanos.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Every medical school is required to maintain a baseline level of URM's to keep their accreditation.

Show me where it says that anywhere. What is this baseline? There are a decent amount of schools that have very few URMs.

I'm not trying to spark debate - I just don't understand why someone would fight so tooth and nail against being his ethnicity. Okay fine, you didn't put it on your application to prove a point, but actively trying to make sure you're not listed as your ethnicity on the school's statistics is a bit odd to me.

For real we should be proud of our ethnicity. Es como los de cara de nopal que dicen que no hablan el Español que no son Hispanos.

Ya tu sabes, hermano. No entiendo eso. Somos lo que somos, y no podemos ocultarlo.

 

[Dbate]

Show me where it says that anywhere. What is this baseline? There are a decent amount of schools that have very few URMs.

I'm not trying to spark debate - I just don't understand why someone would fight so tooth and nail against being his ethnicity. Okay fine, you didn't put it on your application to prove a point, but actively trying to make sure you're not listed as your ethnicity on the school's statistics is a bit odd to me.



Ya tu sabes, hermano. No entiendo eso. Somos lo que somos, y no podemos ocultarlo.

It has nothing to do with trying not to be one's ethnicity.

I don't believe people should be judged by their ethnicity. Thus, I would like to not feed into a system that does this.

It seems pretty simple and non-controversial to me.

 

[nemo123]

Show me where it says that anywhere. What is this baseline? There are a decent amount of schools that have very few URMs.

I'm not trying to spark debate - I just don't understand why someone would fight so tooth and nail against being his ethnicity. Okay fine, you didn't put it on your application to prove a point, but actively trying to make sure you're not listed as your ethnicity on the school's statistics is a bit odd to me.

There's no baseline (or at least it's not publicized), but I think LizzyM has said before that med schools are required to have a diverse racial student body (and I think that also extends to faculty members) or else they will get a punishment from the accrediting body of med schools.

Ya tu sabes, hermano. No entiendo eso. Somos lo que somos, y no podemos ocultarlo.

Estoy de acuerdo con ustedes. 😀

 

[histidine]

For real we should be proud of our ethnicity. Es como los de cara de nopal que dicen que no hablan el Español que no son Hispanos.

Si senor. Que pasa calabasa?

Dbate, I see where you are coming from. You got into UTSW because you earned it, whether or not they knew your ethnicity. Keep in mind the playing field is not fair in many respects. I assume you checked off Texas residency? That gave you a huge advantage based solely off where you live, not by any merit related to your qualifications as a future physician. (I wish I was from a state that had affordable, quality medical schools like the ones for Texans). You might as well take advantage of every edge you can get in this competitive process. It doesn't get easier with residency and fellowships.. Personally, I don't like how ethnicity is used in medical school applications, but I still think all URMs should take advantage of it nonetheless.

 

[KnuxNole]

It has nothing to do with trying not to be one's ethnicity.

I don't believe people should be judged by their ethnicity. Thus, I would like to not feed into a system that does this.

It seems pretty simple and non-controversial to me.

Unfortunately, you'll be judged for it until the day you die. The key is not give a ****.

It could also help others. If you go to a mainly white school and if there are prospective black students wanting to know if there would be any issues about race, you can be a great source of info. Especially on this site, where it's the best place to go for help/guidance 🙂

 

[Espadaleader]

What KnuxNole said is right. It is very important to know that a school is diverse. Some schools may not have much diversity. NYU has for example 2 Black people and a similar amount of Hispanics in an incoming class of 160+. That's pitiful. I want to know that my school is doing what it can to produce physicians of color, which is important to medicine and healthcare in this country. Also, it is naive for you to think that you're not being judged by your race. Everyone is judged based on their race, family, hometown, country, sexuality etc. Can't avoid it. What so Asians are going to throw away their ethnicity because bigots think they are super smart robots? Are Whites going to throw away being White because some idiots think all White people are racist? No!!!!! Why would you throw away your blackness because of what other people think?!

It's important to understand that our race and ethnicity is part of us but it doesn't define us. Dbate, I'll be honest. You're stupid. Dude I'm just trying to go out and drink with my Asian, Hispanic, and white brothers and sisters. No body cares about all that nonsense. Yes, there are racists and people that will think you didn't work hard but the majority of people just trying to play FIFA lol.

Finally it's disrespectful to EVERYONE to think that they will "judge" you based on your skin. Why would you assume that everyone would think that you didn't work hard. I'm black and I got friends from all races and they never did that bro. NOW there are some racist people in the world bro. Identify them. Avoid them. Proceed about your business.

Okay, almost done. Most importantly. You must realize that for every person that will judge you by race, 20 more will judge you by character.

 

[LizzyM]

There's no baseline (or at least it's not publicized), but I think LizzyM has said before that med schools are required to have a diverse racial student body (and I think that also extends to faculty members) or else they will get a punishment from the accrediting body of med schools.



Estoy de acuerdo con ustedes. 😀

Schools have to have a plan, policies, programs. It isn't about achieving any specific "baseline" but making an effort to have a diverse student body and a diverse faculty.

https://www.aamc.org/download/279018/data/brazanskyslides.pdf

 

[Dbate]

What KnuxNole said is right. It is very important to know that a school is diverse. Some schools may not have much diversity. NYU has for example 2 Black people and a similar amount of Hispanics in an incoming class of 160+. That's pitiful. I want to know that my school is doing what it can to produce physicians of color, which is important to medicine and healthcare in this country. Also, it is naive for you to think that you're not being judged by your race. Everyone is judged based on their race, family, hometown, country, sexuality etc. Can't avoid it. What so Asians are going to throw away their ethnicity because bigots think they are super smart robots? Are Whites going to throw away being White because some idiots think all White people are racist? No!!!!! Why would you throw away your blackness because of what other people think?!

It's important to understand that our race and ethnicity is part of us but it doesn't define us. Dbate, I'll be honest. You're stupid. Dude I'm just trying to go out and drink with my Asian, Hispanic, and white brothers and sisters. No body cares about all that nonsense. Yes, there are racists and people that will think you didn't work hard but the majority of people just trying to play FIFA lol.

Finally it's disrespectful to EVERYONE to think that they will "judge" you based on your skin. Why would you assume that everyone would think that you didn't work hard. I'm black and I got friends from all races and they never did that bro. NOW there are some racist people in the world bro. Identify them. Avoid them. Proceed about your business.

Okay, almost done. Most importantly. You must realize that for every person that will judge you by race, 20 more will judge you by character.

I don't know why people are making such emotional pleas.

I just wanted to know how adcoms count people in their demographic statistics who don't report their ethnicity.

 

[KnuxNole]

Probably as "other" 😛

 

[histidine]

Everyone is judged based on their race, family, hometown, country, sexuality etc. Can't avoid it.


Finally it's disrespectful to EVERYONE to think that they will "judge" you based on your skin.

 

[274631]

I don't know why people are making such emotional pleas.

I just wanted to know how adcoms count people in their demographic statistics who don't report their ethnicity.

I've seen several schools have a separate category for not specified/reported. My guess is that you'd be put into that category.

 

[Pacna]

Honestly, you should be more worried about this if you're Caucasian. Or have an eyepatch. 🙁

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Dbate, you have an acceptance at one of the best schools (top 25) in the nation.
You will never truly know whether your race factored into your interviewer's recommendation to accept you or not.

Would you truly decline an acceptance if it was discovered that they accepted you because of a slight URM advantage? My guess is no. So just enjoy it, because there are a lot of people who would love to be in your place, myself included.

IMHO, your URM status would not have mattered as much because your numbers are fine. If anything, your being a URM probably just helped you get accepted earlier during the prematch instead of during/after the match. So you would've gotten in regardless.

 

[DokterMom]

Sounds more like an "I didn't claim it, so they can't count it" to me --

But I think ChemEng's point is valid:

"I don't get why this is of any importance to you? Do you not want future black students attending your institution to know the accurate number of black students at the school? It is important for many of us applying to apply to schools with baseline levels of diversity...I don't understand why you wouldn't want yourself being counted among the diversity ranks."

 

[medschoolmyname]

In the end your in and you'll never truly know if they did or didn't... so why don't you focus on getting through your studies and show through your actions that they made the right decision in picking you the person. That alone will speak volumes.

 

[Ismet]

I just wanted to know how adcoms count people in their demographic statistics who don't report their ethnicity.

As "not reported" or some permutation of that response. It's not up to the adcoms to interpret your race or ethnicity from your picture, although it certainly may come up in discussion if that school makes the picture available to the whole committee.

 

[The Buff OP]

¿Te refieres a los que se conocen como pochos que fisicamente se ven mexicanos, tienen nombres típicos mexicanos y tienen papás o abuelos mexicanos pero ni hablan una palabra de español? Pobres, cuando vienen pa acá como turistas se la pasan con su cara de what cuando todo el mundo les empieza a hablar en español asumiendo que hablan bien el idioma.

 

[Cheetah13]

Are you trolling? I think I've seen you bring up the fact that you did not disclose your ethnicity about three different instances on these forums.It is as if you want to receive an applause or pat on the back...from anonymous people on SDN..which is odd...

In order for there to not be any confusion amongst your classmates and professors about your qualifications, it might serve you well to wear a name tag with your MCAT score, GPA and undergrad institution.

 

[Dbate]

Are you trolling? I think I've seen you bring up the fact that you did not disclose your ethnicity about three different instances on these forums.It is as if you want to receive an applause or pat on the back...from anonymous people on SDN..which is odd...

In order for there to not be any confusion amongst your classmates and professors about your qualifications, it might serve you well to wear a name tag with your MCAT score, GPA and undergrad institution.

Strong bump on a thread that died.

Here's a tip: If you don't like what i post, then don't read it.

But I guess I would see the URM benefit differently if I was sitting on a 2.9 sGPA too.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/e1044b1e765141572abec0cbfda75f99/tumlr_mh5pbqCebQ1s3regwo1_250.gif

 

[WaterIsGood]

Strong bump on a thread that died.

Here's a tip: If you don't like what i post, then don't read it.

But I guess I would see the URM benefit differently if I was sitting on a 2.9 sGPA too.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/e1044b1e765141572abec0cbfda75f99/tumlr_mh5pbqCebQ1s3regwo1_250.gif

Your response is a tragedy.

 

[Cheetah13]

Strong bump on a thread that died.

Here's a tip: If you don't like what i post, then don't read it.

But I guess I would see the URM benefit differently if I was sitting on a 2.9 sGPA too.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/e1044b1e765141572abec0cbfda75f99/tumlr_mh5pbqCebQ1s3regwo1_250.gif

and a 4.0 Master's GPA?
You could have PM'ed me for more details. Try again.

 

[Amygdarya]

Here's a tip: If you don't like what i post, then don't read it.

This doesn't make sense: how can you know you don't like the post if you don't read it? And if you read and don't like it, how can you unread it?

 

[Dbate]

This doesn't make sense: how can you know you don't like the post if you don't read it? And if you read and don't like it, how can you unread it?

Except he stated that he's seen me mention this topic three times and then proceeded to open a thread I started on the same topic and read it again.

http://electricliterature.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/learn-to-read.jpg

I think I've seen you bring up the fact that you did not disclose your ethnicity about three different instances on these forums.It is as if you want to receive an applause or pat on the back...from anonymous people on SDN..which is odd...

In order for there to not be any confusion amongst your classmates and professors about your qualifications, it might serve you well to wear a name tag with your MCAT score, GPA and undergrad institution.

 

[EMDO2018]

There's no baseline (or at least it's not publicized), but I think LizzyM has said before that med schools are required to have a diverse racial student body (and I think that also extends to faculty members) or else they will get a punishment from the accrediting body of med schools.



Estoy de acuerdo con ustedes. 😀

This can't be true for DO schools at least, as most of them are 99% white