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nowanmd said:
I was wondering, especially now with AOA residency to be ACGME why everyone doesn't just view DO schools as just additional med school seats.
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Where are you going with this? DO schools were medical schools to begin with...
 
mnhockeyfan said:
Where are you going with this? DO schools were medical schools to begin with...
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He means as equivalent seats.

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that's what I meant there should be absoluetly no difference to an applicant to apply DO or MD
 
Thats how I've always viewed them. But I'm not sure who you mean by "everyone". Please clarify if you dont mind.
 
mnhockeyfan said:
Ah, well this sounds like the start of another DO vs MD debate
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Well yea.


nowanmd said:
that's what I meant there should be absoluetly no difference to an applicant to apply DO or MD
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As long as the letters are different there will be a difference.


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MedPR said:
And the OMM. And the board scores.

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True, but if for some reason all DO schools were able to change the letters to MD for all graduates then you will see a huge spike of applicants with very high stats and most students going Caribbean will change their mind and apply to these schools now.

So OP, its only because of the last two letters and nothing more, but students are wising up to DO and thats why the average has been creeping up year after year. I remember seeing an old Underdogs thread a few years ago with people getting into DO with a <20 and GPA in the 3.0 range. How the times sure do change.
 
DO schools will never be fully respected without their own, quality teaching hospitals and research.
 
I see plenty of scores allo and Osteo good an bad. Again in terms of those who matter, patients, there is no discernible difference.
 
Boards correlate to MCAT like weather patterns correlate to the amount of flatulence produced by the duckbill platypus during mating season.
 
EnergyDrink said:
Board scores correlate to MCAT though. So you can't really pin that on the school.
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DO schools routinely have lower usmle averages than MD.

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MedPR said:
DO schools routinely have lower usmle averages than MD.

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Correct, but with the provision that this can't be attributed to something that is inherit in the DO curriculum.
 
MedPR said:
Why not?
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It can be ostensibly argued that the curriculum are geared more towards COMLEX, but there are too many variables to say it is the curriculum.

I think one of the major factors is the average MCAT for DO schools are about 3 points lower than MD schools, suggesting that the students aren't as good at taking tests. Because we know MCAT scores moderately correlate to board scores and pass rate, its not reasonable to suggest differences in board scores are attributed to another reason.

I can't find any numerical data on MD/DO USMLE scores, because this data isn't published. I'd be interested to see how low-MCAT MD programs correlate to high-MCAT DO programs in terms of USMLE Step 1. I have a hunch they're about the same.
 
EnergyDrink said:
It can be ostensibly argued that the curriculum are geared more towards COMLEX, but there are too many variables to say it is the curriculum.

I think one of the major factors is the average MCAT for DO schools are about 3 points lower than MD schools, suggesting that the students aren't as good at taking tests. Because we know MCAT scores moderately correlate to board scores and pass rate, its not reasonable to suggest differences in board scores are attributed to another reason.

I can't find any numerical data on MD/DO USMLE scores, because this data isn't published. I'd be interested to see how low-MCAT MD programs correlate to high-MCAT DO programs in terms of USMLE Step 1. I have a hunch they're about the same.
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Innate test taking skills are not even a major part of MCAT success.

Edit: Regardless, in my original post I simply said that the difference between DO and MD are the letters and DOs score lower on the USMLE. The "why" isn't important.

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MedPR said:
Innate test taking skills are not even a major part of MCAT success.

Edit: Regardless, in my original post I simply said that the difference between DO and MD are the letters and DOs score lower on the USMLE. The "why" isn't important.

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While true...MDs have some serious outliers, being able to claim the scores of Harvard, Columbia, Yale, etc. as well as a focus on the USMLE for the MD school curriculum, vs COMLEX for DOs. So, yeah, MD USMLE stats are higher on average...

I don't think this point is lost on you, but I wanted to point it out since the numbers alone cant tell a very accurate story.
 
EnergyDrink said:
Correct, but with the provision that this can't be attributed to something that is inherit in the DO curriculum.
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DO schools are geared to the COMLEX...for better or worse, DO students would likely do better on the USMLE if that was the only test they prepped for.

Having said that, plenty of DO students rock the USMLE (and the two tests are pretty similar anyway)
 
HalfListic said:
While true...MDs have some serious outliers, being able to claim the scores of Harvard, Columbia, Yale, etc. as well as a focus on the USMLE for the MD school curriculum, vs COMLEX for DOs. So, yeah, MD USMLE stats are higher on average...

I don't think this point is lost on you, but I wanted to point it out since the numbers alone cant tell a very accurate story.
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Yea I thought about that. Then I thought about how few students are at top schools relative to how many students are at "bottom" schools (which presumably have below the national average Step 1 scores). I don't think the top schools can score high enough to bring up the national average by a significant amount.


HalfListic said:
DO schools are geared to the COMLEX...for better or worse, DO students would likely do better on the USMLE if that was the only test they prepped for.

Having said that, plenty of DO students rock the USMLE (and the two tests are pretty similar anyway)
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I was under the impression that DO students typically studied for the USMLE, took a week to study OMM, then took COMLEX?

I've also heard that USMLE tests more details (making it harder than COMLEX), but is also written better/more clearly (making it easier than COMLEX). Not sure how much truth there is to that though...?
 
I'm not sure the exact figures, but anectodally at my school it seems like less than 50% of the class takes the USMLE. That's probably because the majority of students at my school aren't as interested in the super-competitive residencies, so they feel they don't need to take it.

I'll be taking both; atm I plan on taking the COMLEX prior to the USMLE, since it is more important to pass it to continue on to rotations.

I have heard the same generalizations that you have MedPR, but again I can't attest to their validity personally.
 
A good usmle will get you invites to some average radiology programs and some good anesthesia, IM, neurology, PM&R, etc. programs. It still won't get you any invites for Acgme derm, rad-onc, or surgical subspecalties, like ortho, urology...

I thought the usmle was easier than the comlex. It was more straightforward.

Going to a DO school really isn't a big deal unless you want to do derm, rad-onc, urology, ENT, or opthmaology.
 
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mnhockeyfan said:
Where are you going with this? DO schools were medical schools to begin with...
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On my interviews, interviewers have made a distinction between medical school and osteopathy school. Some people don't think they are the same thing at all.
 
does this mean less argument or differentiated views towards competency of physician training since they are all going to be ACGME accredited?
 
cliquesh said:
On my interviews, interviewers have made a distinction between medical school and osteopathy school. Some people don't think they are the same thing at all.
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Even at DO school interviews they ask "why DO?". The DO schools want to separate themselves but also want to be treated equally.. Can't have both.

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MedPR said:
Even at DO school interviews they ask "why DO?". The DO schools want to separate themselves but also want to be treated equally.. Can't have both.
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Why do you think equality is impossible while maintaining individual identity? The optimist in me would say that it is entirely possible. Both MDs and DO's are already equal legally. So it just comes down to everyone else realizing it. The realist in me says that there are plenty of ego-driven individuals in both fields that will always be striving for superiority, making equality impossible.

Either way, I feel this is a discussion that can't be solved one way or the other. The reality will evolve the way it evolves.
 
NeuroSpeed said:
Why do you think equality is impossible while maintaining individual identity? The optimist in me would say that it is entirely possible. Both MDs and DO's are already equal legally. So it just comes down to everyone else realizing it. The realist in me says that there are plenty of ego-driven individuals in both fields that will always be striving for superiority, making equality impossible.

Either way, I feel this is a discussion that can't be solved one way or the other. The reality will evolve the way it evolves.
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I think most people realize that practicing DOs are equivalent to practicing MDs. I just dislike the DO application process.

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I'm just going to put this out there since it seems a lot of people have lost sight of the reasoning behind "MD>DO".

Practicing physicians are equivalent regardless of the letters. However, MDs have greater access to many career options than DOs do. That is where the discrepancy lies.
 
EnergyDrink said:
It can be ostensibly argued that the curriculum are geared more towards COMLEX, but there are too many variables to say it is the curriculum.

I think one of the major factors is the average MCAT for DO schools are about 3 points lower than MD schools, suggesting that the students aren't as good at taking tests. Because we know MCAT scores moderately correlate to board scores and pass rate, its not reasonable to suggest differences in board scores are attributed to another reason.

I can't find any numerical data on MD/DO USMLE scores, because this data isn't published. I'd be interested to see how low-MCAT MD programs correlate to high-MCAT DO programs in terms of USMLE Step 1. I have a hunch they're about the same.
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True you can't pin it on the school but pre-clinical grades do correlate very strongly with COMLEX I and even more so than the MCAT.

Here is one study I have attached showing how strong a correlation doing well in pre-clinical classes has with COMLEX step I scores.

http://www.jaoa.org/content/101/6/347.full.pdf+html
 
MedPR said:
DO schools routinely have lower usmle averages than MD.

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You also have to remember that your top 25%ers who are gunning for ortho, neurosurg, derm, and these ultra cometitive residencies know that they aren't going to match ACGME so they don't waste their time with the USMLE. If you were to look at just the middle of the MD class, I would bet scores would be very comparable.
 
DO school is medical school. When you graduate you are going to be a doctor who practices medicine with full scope in the United States.

If you go to an MD school you may have more opportunities getting into more competitive specialties but nobody hands you a golden pass into the residency of your choice. You have to work your ass off regardless. Just get in somewhere, work hard and pray really hard that you will achieve your goals. If you do get into medical school, MD or DO you are having the opportunity of a life time. If you are hardworking and lucky enough to gain an acceptance you will be entering a career that many people have tried to and failed or wish they had the opportunity to enter.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
You also have to remember that your top 25%ers who are gunning for ortho, neurosurg, derm, and these ultra cometitive residencies know that they aren't going to match ACGME so they don't waste their time with the USMLE. If you were to look at just the middle of the MD class, I would bet scores would be very comparable.
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Again, I don't think the top MDs can bring up the national average by a noticeable amount.

And even so, the DOs who are looking at the most competitive residencies (and therefore score highest on COMLEX) won't necessarily do better than the average DO on the USMLE. There are many examples (at least I've seen them on SDN) of people doing very well on COMLEX and not great on USMLE (and vice versa).
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psychgirrrl said:
DO school is medical school. When you graduate you are going to be a doctor who practices medicine with full scope in the United States.

If you go to an MD school you may have more opportunities getting into more competitive specialties but nobody hands you a golden pass into the residency of your choice. You have to work your ass off regardless. Just get in somewhere, work hard and pray really hard that you will achieve your goals. If you do get into medical school, MD or DO you are having the opportunity of a life time. If you are hardworking and lucky enough to gain an acceptance you will be entering a career that many people have tried to and failed or wish they had the opportunity to enter.
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Like x10000
 
psychgirrrl said:
DO school is medical school. When you graduate you are going to be a doctor who practices medicine with full scope in the United States.

If you go to an MD school you may have more opportunities getting into more competitive specialties but nobody hands you a golden pass into the residency of your choice. You have to work your ass off regardless. Just get in somewhere, work hard and pray really hard that you will achieve your goals. If you do get into medical school, MD or DO you are having the opportunity of a life time. If you are hardworking and lucky enough to gain an acceptance you will be entering a career that many people have tried to and failed or wish they had the opportunity to enter.
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Agreed

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MedPR said:
Again, I don't think the top MDs can bring up the national average by a noticeable amount.

And even so, the DOs who are looking at the most competitive residencies (and therefore score highest on COMLEX) won't necessarily do better than the average DO on the USMLE. There are many examples (at least I've seen them on SDN) of people doing very well on COMLEX and not great on USMLE (and vice versa).
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right but there are about 18,000 MD students taking the USMLE every year. As far as DOs there were 70 people at DMU who took the USMLE last year and a class of 220, so if 1/3 of every DO class takes the USMLE and out of 4500ish spots, that is about 1,500 DO students. If the majority of DO students taking the USMLE fall in the middle of their class, then the shear volume of the people at the top is more than enough to pull the average way up.
 
psychgirrrl said:
DO school is medical school. When you graduate you are going to be a doctor who practices medicine with full scope in the United States.

If you go to an MD school you may have more opportunities getting into more competitive specialties but nobody hands you a golden pass into the residency of your choice. You have to work your ass off regardless. Just get in somewhere, work hard and pray really hard that you will achieve your goals. If you do get into medical school, MD or DO you are having the opportunity of a life time. If you are hardworking and lucky enough to gain an acceptance you will be entering a career that many people have tried to and failed or wish they had the opportunity to enter.
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Best comment to come out of an MD vs DO thread in a long time.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
right but there are about 18,000 MD students taking the USMLE every year. As far as DOs there were 70 people at DMU who took the USMLE last year and a class of 220, so if 1/3 of every DO class takes the USMLE and out of 4500ish spots, that is about 1,500 DO students. If the majority of DO students taking the USMLE fall in the middle of their class, then the shear volume of the people at the top is more than enough to pull the average way up.
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I see...


I understand your argument that top MD students will bring up the MD average. However there are way more bottom MD than top MD. Considering that, it's safe to assume hat the average MD student scores slightly higher than the average step score (which is brought up by top students, but down even more by bottom students).

So the notion that the current DO average is likely to be around that of the middle MD students doesn't seem accurate.

I'd rather not get into it regarding why the DO scores are lower on USMLE. It is what it is.
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psychgirrrl said:
DO school is medical school. When you graduate you are going to be a doctor who practices medicine with full scope in the United States.

If you go to an MD school you may have more opportunities getting into more competitive specialties but nobody hands you a golden pass into the residency of your choice. You have to work your ass off regardless. Just get in somewhere, work hard and pray really hard that you will achieve your goals. If you do get into medical school, MD or DO you are having the opportunity of a life time. If you are hardworking and lucky enough to gain an acceptance you will be entering a career that many people have tried to and failed or wish they had the opportunity to enter.
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Comments like these are probably the most refreshing. Thank you!
 
Completely irrelevant to the current discussion but I am curious.

MD= Doctor of Medicine

DO= Doctor of Osteopathic medicine

Why don't they change the MD degree to DA for Doctor of Allopathic medicine? Seems kind of unfair that they get the title MD when they are both doctors of medicine. (Yea I know MD came first but still)
 
Cuongoff said:
Completely irrelevant to the current discussion but I am curious.

MD= Doctor of Medicine

DO= Doctor of Osteopathic medicine

Why don't they change the MD degree to DA for Doctor of Allopathic medicine? Seems kind of unfair that they get the title MD when they are both doctors of medicine. (Yea I know MD came first but still)
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Changing the degree would serve no purpose.
 
Cuongoff said:
Completely irrelevant to the current discussion but I am curious.

MD= Doctor of Medicine

DO= Doctor of Osteopathic medicine

Why don't they change the MD degree to DA for Doctor of Allopathic medicine? Seems kind of unfair that they get the title MD when they are both doctors of medicine. (Yea I know MD came first but still)
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I thought this before as well. Maybe people would mistake going to the DA's office as the District Attorney's office, so they figured it would be less confusing to just keep it as MD.
 
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