Advance Standing Program Vs. Residency

[VENEDOCTOR]

Hello.....I am curious as to what your opinion is in terms of deciding whether to aply to Advance standing or postgraduate. I am from Venezuela, graduated 2 years ago, took both my boards and have good GPA and Toefl.
A lot of people that graduated with me have aplyed to postgraduate programs (mostly ortho and pros) and have gotten in, WITHOUT the boards..This makes me feel a little down. I realy make an effort to pass this tests.
Wath is going on??.... I also now at least 10 people from Venezuela that did their postgraduate and got the dean to sing the letter in order for them to get their DDS.....so.....are we making the right choice by applying only to Advence Standing ? we are going to pay the same price for not learning nothing as opposed to paying for postgraduate education and ending up as specialists??/
Thank you for your opinion

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[NileBDS]

If you can get into a post-grad program, go for it ! Some states will still issue foreign trained dentists a license without DDS/DMD, provided that you complete a 2 year (or more) accredited post graduate study/specialty program. However, in retrospect, I would never trade my DDS training for a post graduate specialty.
Assuming that overseas training is to the same caliber as it is here in the US would be a great mistake. The foreign trained programs integrate you into their DDS/DMD programs and teach/train you for things you would otherwise have no way of experiencing.

Hello.....I am curious as to what your opinion is in terms of deciding whether to aply to Advance standing or postgraduate. I am from Venezuela, graduated 2 years ago, took both my boards and have good GPA and Toefl.
A lot of people that graduated with me have aplyed to postgraduate programs (mostly ortho and pros) and have gotten in, WITHOUT the boards..This makes me feel a little down. I realy make an effort to pass this tests.
Wath is going on??.... I also now at least 10 people from Venezuela that did their postgraduate and got the dean to sing the letter in order for them to get their DDS.....so.....are we making the right choice by applying only to Advence Standing ? we are going to pay the same price for not learning nothing as opposed to paying for postgraduate education and ending up as specialists??/
Thank you for your opinion

 

[monteiroco]

I don't understand what is happening.
I met a dentist from Venezuela and she didn't enroll in a FTD program and now she has a license to practice in Florida.
How is that possible?

 

[VENEDOCTOR]

Yes I know what you mean.....a lot of people from Venezuela like to risk it. Generaly they graduate, work for a year or two in Venezuela, aply for postgraduate education in the US, I dont know how they get accepted (every time I ask they say "I just aply and thyey call me" )(this is even without the boards), when they end the postgraduate the Dean of their university will sing the letter saying that they are qualify to apply for licensure, and they are DONE. I am talking about excellent universities, UMICH, BU, Harvard, Chicago, UPENN, etc....I know a lot of excellent dentist (mostly pedo and pros) with a huge pool of patients and they just go with the flow...I am very glad for people with this much luck, but I just think that it is not fair for the rest of us (international dentist) ho have best our butts of studying for the boards....But, what are we going to do....that is life..jajajaja

 

[monreal]

Yes I know what you mean.....a lot of people from Venezuela like to risk it. Generaly they graduate, work for a year or two in Venezuela, aply for postgraduate education in the US, I dont know how they get accepted (every time I ask they say "I just aply and thyey call me" )(this is even without the boards), when they end the postgraduate the Dean of their university will sing the letter saying that they are qualify to apply for licensure, and they are DONE. I am talking about excellent universities, UMICH, BU, Harvard, Chicago, UPENN, etc....I know a lot of excellent dentist (mostly pedo and pros) with a huge pool of patients and they just go with the flow...I am very glad for people with this much luck, but I just think that it is not fair for the rest of us (international dentist) ho have best our butts of studying for the boards....But, what are we going to do....that is life..jajajaja

Yep, I know what you are talking about. Even without experience or boards, some get accepted somehow. The secret is in vitamin C (connections)...
Now if you think its not fair! What would an American graduate applying for these PG's think?! It is freaking frustrating for them! anyway, Im proud of doing it the right way. Only because I don't have a choice😀.

 

[anafossil]

I am from venezuela, came here 7 years ago took my boards and I am applying to the International program right now, I know what do you mean, because i know people that has license in Massachusets and they never told me how they got it, I think that state has some kind of temporary license. But anyways don't loose your faith, specially on this difficult times of "Mr Chavez" in power.

 

[NileBDS]

I am from venezuela, came here 7 years ago took my boards and I am applying to the International program right now, I know what do you mean, because i know people that has license in Massachusets and they never told me how they got it, I think that state has some kind of temporary license. ...

Massachusetts does in fact have a temporary license program for foreign trained dentists. No advanced training (DDS/DMD) needed. You can only work under direct supervision of a licensed practitioner, mostly public health and under serviced areas (jails, government health facilities, ...). No private practice.

 

[NileBDS]

... I also now at least 10 people from Venezuela that did their postgraduate and got the dean to sing the letter in order for them to get their DDS ...

I can tell you right now, that this is very far fetched. A dean does not grant doctoral degrees. S/he can not just sign a piece of paper, and POOF, you have a DDS. I am guessing what you meant to say was that the dean certified those graduates in order for them too be eligible for dental and board licensure.

.....so.....are we making the right choice by applying only to Advence Standing ? we are going to pay the same price for not learning nothing as opposed to paying for postgraduate education and ending up as specialists??/
Thank you for your opinion

It all comes down to you and how motivated/determined you are to get a good education. I know for a fact that many graduates whom have not completed advanced standing programs, and have just went through the states board exams for dental licensure have a pretty tough time finding jobs, even in areas of shortage.
I can not say it enough. Overseas training and US training are not the same. The problem is that almost everyone here knows that except for foreign grads, since most of us assume that it can not be much different and always get frustrated with the system here.

 

[NileBDS]

Yes I know what you mean.....a lot of people from Venezuela like to risk it. Generaly they graduate, work for a year or two in Venezuela, aply for postgraduate education in the US, I dont know how they get accepted (every time I ask they say "I just aply and thyey call me" )(this is even without the boards), when they end the postgraduate the Dean of their university will sing the letter saying that they are qualify to apply for licensure, and they are DONE. I am talking about excellent universities, UMICH, BU, Harvard, Chicago, UPENN, etc....I know a lot of excellent dentist (mostly pedo and pros) with a huge pool of patients and they just go with the flow...I am very glad for people with this much luck, but I just think that it is not fair for the rest of us (international dentist) ho have best our butts of studying for the boards....But, what are we going to do....that is life..jajajaja

Well, of course you know that before they can apply for licensure, they need to have completed both parts of the board exams, right ? Further more, most university based programs require that you have completed at least part I of the NBDE prior to your application. They allow you to postpone part II and study for that exam while in the program, but part I is a must. I know that because I am applying for a post grad GPR now, and have a good understanding of the process and requirements.
It also makes a huge difference WHEN all of these people applied. Things have changed dramatically after 2003. In the old days, you could even take your NBDE exams outside of the US. The rules were much different (easier) back in the 80's and 90's.

 

[monreal]

...I know for a fact that many graduates whom have not completed advanced standing programs, and have just went through the states board exams for dental licensure have a pretty tough time finding jobs, even in areas of shortage.

I can't disagree more. All that the employers (company, as a beginning) care about is the license. If have a state license you are all welcome. I am talking from the experience of 4 of my friends who did Rochester AGED, or Ohio GPR. They began working one week after the license was issued, with a green card sponsorship from the company!

 

[VENEDOCTOR]

I am liking this threat....jajajaja...thank you for all your thoughts....
NileBDS...in all honestly, I am currently working as a dental assistant for an AEGD program and we have 2 american Drs. and 5 foreing trained dentist. I agree thet things are not the same in regards of training, but, in comparing my self among them, I think that the level of practical training that we (foreing trained dentist) have is something uncamparable to americans. In my university we started treating patients since our first year, in most universities they treat patients for 3 years, as oposed to North America where you only treat patients for two years. So, in regards to their theoretical training I agree that north americans have an excellent training but I am compleately convinced that the practical/clinical preparation outside the US is much better... Just two days ago I had a chat with one of the american residents. She graduated from one of the best schools in us, and she did not prepare a single tooth for all ceramic crown....I repeat, this is something that very rarely happens outside or at least in my country....
Just my opinion, I hope not to offend anybody


monreal

 

[g3k]

I am liking this threat....jajajaja...thank you for all your thoughts....
NileBDS...in all honestly, I am currently working as a dental assistant for an AEGD program and we have 2 american Drs. and 5 foreing trained dentist. I agree thet things are not the same in regards of training, but, in comparing my self among them, I think that the level of practical training that we (foreing trained dentist) have is something uncamparable to americans. In my university we started treating patients since our first year, in most universities they treat patients for 3 years, as oposed to North America where you only treat patients for two years. So, in regards to their theoretical training I agree that north americans have an excellent training but I am compleately convinced that the practical/clinical preparation outside the US is much better... Just two days ago I had a chat with one of the american residents. She graduated from one of the best schools in us, and she did not prepare a single tooth for all ceramic crown....I repeat, this is something that very rarely happens outside or at least in my country....
Just my opinion, I hope not to offend anybody


monreal

Wonder what happened to my earlier post... Anyway, what I wanted to say was I wouldn't generalize. It is all personal experience and opinions. If you have seen students better esperienced from their home countries maybe that is what your experience is. Just out of curiosity, if you feel you had better education there why do students come here for education? I am not saying that education here is hands down better than anywhere else. All I am saying is education here is fit for treating patients here. The culture is different. Everyone is sue happy. It is more technologically advanced here and all that.
Also, how did you get to work on patients without knowing the science behind dentistry? What is you gave the wrong medication to the patient and so on?

 

[NileBDS]

I can't disagree more. All that the employers (company, as a beginning) care about is the license. If have a state license you are all welcome. I am talking from the experience of 4 of my friends who did Rochester AGED, or Ohio GPR. They began working one week after the license was issued, with a green card sponsorship from the company!

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree (unless you disagree with that too).
If you go back and read my post carefully, you will understand that I was talking about foreign trained dentists that have opted to go through "state board licensure" without any proper training (California, Minnesota, Hawaii, Oklahoma in the past), and not only those who have done AEGD/GPR, although even AEGD/GPR foreign graduates will still certainly face difficulties finding decent jobs. All 4 of your friends may consider themselves lucky. You may also refer to another post I wrote earlier today on a different thread:

... Most states now are moving towards licensure by post graduate training, and that seems to be the emerging trend. The only problem I see though, is most dentists will have a hard time taking your CV and/or job application seriously with a foreign degree. But on the bright side, you can always apply for advanced standing later, and you will have a much better shot at acceptance.
PS: I know for a fact that foreign grads with foreign degrees will eventually find jobs, but you must ask them what the nature of their jobs are. Some end up doing hygiene, working as temporary employees, fast turnover chain offices with poor pay. It is a good thing that you decided to investigate this now, and I would encourage you to continue to ask around for better answers.

In any case, good luck with your applications.

 

[NileBDS]

Wonder what happened to my earlier post... Anyway, what I wanted to say was I wouldn't generalize. It is all personal experience and opinions. If you have seen students better esperienced from their home countries maybe that is what your experience is. Just out of curiosity, if you feel you had better education there why do students come here for education? I am not saying that education here is hands down better than anywhere else. All I am saying is education here is fit for treating patients here. The culture is different. Everyone is sue happy. It is more technologically advanced here and all that.
Also, how did you get to work on patients without knowing the science behind dentistry? What is you gave the wrong medication to the patient and so on?

👍 👍 👍 as always.

On a lighter note, how's the program ? What have the gophers been up to ? Nice to see you again.

PS: I guess you accidentally deleted your previous post. I can restore it for you if you wish to do so. If not, let bygones be bygones ...

 

[monreal]

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree (unless you disagree with that too).
If you go back and read my post carefully, you will understand that I was talking about foreign trained dentists that have opted to go through "state board licensure" without any proper training (California, Minnesota, Hawaii, Oklahoma in the past), and not only those who have done AEGD/GPR, although even AEGD/GPR foreign graduates will still certainly face difficulties finding decent jobs. All 4 of your friends may consider themselves lucky. You may also refer to another post I wrote earlier today on a different thread:



In any case, good luck with your applications.

Sherif, the thread is all about "residency vs advanced standing". nobody is talking about "state board exams" except you. However, my post stands correct here as well. This makes my "lucky" friends 6 as you will add 2 who opted for California Bench, and they suffered for "two whole weeks" to find a job in the competitive californian market. And I don't see the point of paying a dentist salary for a hygienest job, seriously!...or "Fast turnover chain offices with poor pay" although its the case for a seventh friend "a periodontist", but I would take it over 200k loan!

I am not trying to advocate any alternative way over advanced standing programs. I didnt apply to any GPR/AGED program, and I am joining a 2 years DMD. I wanted to say that this country is too big to generalize the case of my 6 lucky friends or the 20 unlucky of yours, which you probably already know as you have been here for a long time.

Good luck with your GPR application👍

 

[soriandra]

Hey guys, good thread, I've been wondering about the same things and I don't really know anybody that is in the know so your discussions are more than appreciated. Thanks!🙂

 

[monreal]

Hey guys, good thread, I've been wondering about the same things and I don't really know anybody that is in the know so your discussions are more than appreciated. Thanks!🙂

Its better though to make your own research before enrolling in any program other than DDS/DMD, or a shourtcut whatsoever. Otherwise it's gonna be painfull.

 

[soriandra]

Its better though to make your own research before enrolling in any program other than DDS/DMD, or a shourtcut whatsoever. Otherwise it's gonna be painfull.

Well, considering that I don't know anyone in the States that could advise me about what's best to do... I'm trying to get my info from anywhere I can - including this MB (which has helped me understand some things better already).
And I think in the end it's much safer to go the "regular" way and do an advanced standing and in the end I can really use the extra training - getting in is the pain in the ass though...

 

[NileBDS]

Sherif, the thread is all about "residency vs advanced standing". nobody is talking about "state board exams" except you. However, my post stands correct here as well. This makes my "lucky" friends 6 as you will add 2 who opted for California Bench, and they suffered for "two whole weeks" to find a job in the competitive californian market. And I don't see the point of paying a dentist salary for a hygienest job, seriously!...or "Fast turnover chain offices with poor pay" although its the case for a seventh friend "a periodontist", but I would take it over 200k loan!

I am not trying to advocate any alternative way over advanced standing programs. I didnt apply to any GPR/AGED program, and I am joining a 2 years DMD. I wanted to say that this country is too big to generalize the case of my 6 lucky friends or the 20 unlucky of yours, which you probably already know as you have been here for a long time.

Good luck with your GPR application👍

Like I said, good luck with your applications. I really am no match for your inexperience.

 

[monreal]

Like I said, good luck with your applications. I really am no match for your inexperience.

I am really sorry you don't make a distinction between "different experience" and "inexperience".

 

[g3k]

👍 👍 👍 as always.

On a lighter note, how's the program ? What have the gophers been up to ? Nice to see you again.

PS: I guess you accidentally deleted your previous post. I can restore it for you if you wish to do so. If not, let bygones be bygones ...

Oh Did I? No wonder! Anyway I think I said the same thing earlier. Program is great so far. Nothing to complain. I am happy I chose this school. The city is probably not as exciting as San Fransisco though!!😀 How is Pacific... with just 7 months to graduate you must be extremely happy!

 

[g3k]

Monreal: I seriously think your 6 friends are truly "LUCKY"!! I know people who tried this route and found it real hard to find a job - the state dental licensure and the AEGD (not anyone through GPR). I agree with Sherif that it is hard to find a job... very hard without a DDS/ DMD. I spoke to so many private practitioners and so have my friends in the very state of "California" and they said they would doubt giving a job to a foreign dentist - one reason they all gave: litigation. There were other reasons too - some irrational, but I don't care. You have to realize (and you probably will soon) the culture here is very different. It wouldn't be surprising if those "companies" your friends joined were one of those dental mills. They are production based and not healthcare based.
Also, Sherif had a point here. Maybe not the original point of this thread, but I have seen threads go way off the topic. This was very well within the topic... just a little extra information. Let us not get heated over that! 🙂

Also what is with "VENEDOCTOR" signing off as "monreal" 😉 ?

 

[monreal]

Monreal: I seriously think your 6 friends are truly "LUCKY"!! I know people who tried this route and found it real hard to find a job - the state dental licensure and the AEGD (not anyone through GPR). I agree with Sherif that it is hard to find a job... very hard without a DDS/ DMD. I spoke to so many private practitioners and so have my friends in the very state of "California" and they said they would doubt giving a job to a foreign dentist - one reason they all gave: litigation. There were other reasons too - some irrational, but I don't care.
You couldn't be clearer, I got your point. But may I keep my conviction as they are six friends who are already in?
You have to realize (and you probably will soon) the culture here is very different.
Hell yea. Agree; Litigation and irrational reasons!
It wouldn't be surprising if those "companies" your friends joined were one of those dental mills. They are production based and not healthcare based.
You are not wrong at all. Bur in the handpiece, pedal to the metal, and Prostho job non-stop!
Also, Sherif had a point here. Maybe not the original point of this thread, but I have seen threads go way off the topic. This was very well within the topic... just a little extra information. Let us not get heated over that! 🙂
No heated no! I am still shocked by his immature statement though. It was like "Either you agree, or you are "inexperienced""

Also what is with "VENEDOCTOR" signing off as "monreal" 😉 ?
I see. You are implying double-account in here, ok:
1- You can ask NileBDS, as an administrator, to compare our respective IP adresses, then clarify this issue to you.
2- In 100 posts (5 of them in this thread), I have never signed my name, why would I this time?

Maybe VENEDOCTOR wanted my input on his post

Thank you g3k👍

 

[NileBDS]

Oh Did I? No wonder! Anyway I think I said the same thing earlier. Program is great so far. Nothing to complain. I am happy I chose this school. The city is probably not as exciting as San Fransisco though!!😀 How is Pacific... with just 7 months to graduate you must be extremely happy!

Happy ? It's a pressure cooker over here !! I'm stressing and starting to worry about graduation/requirements/interviews/boards already ! But it's all worth it. And yes, very happy ...

I hear a lot of good things about your program. Looks like Dr. Berthold is really stirring things up over there. I also read one of your other posts about the program, and it sounds like you're having a great time ! I am really really happy for you. Remember where we were a couple of years back ! What a difference ... we've come a long way.
As for me, I'm currently applying/interviewing for GPR's on the east coast, and hopefully will find a one I like. I'll keep you posted.
I know this may sound a bit pre-mature to you, but if I were you (which I kind of am), I would start thinking about your post-graduation opportunities. These 2 years (1.5 actually) will go by QUICK! You want to make sure you find the right place to practice, and do enough interviews, whether it's buying a practice, associateships, start-up practice, post-grads ? Think about your options. It's never too early. What will you be doing June 2009 !! Will it be or 😴 ?

BTW, what board exam does UMN prepare you for ? Or will you just sit for state boards ? Does Minnesota do the PGY-1 licensure thing ? Here, we'll be taking the WREBS. Cal board is becoming obsolete by the minute, specially since the PGY-1 law is expected to pass any minute here in California.

Alright G ! Keep up keeping up !

 

[NileBDS]

Oh Did I? No wonder! Anyway I think I said the same thing earlier. Program is great so far. Nothing to complain. I am happy I chose this school. The city is probably not as exciting as San Fransisco though!!😀 How is Pacific... with just 7 months to graduate you must be extremely happy!

Oh, and PS: YOUR AVATAR IS DRIVING ME CRAZY ! Seriously ...

 

[VENEDOCTOR]

People....cool off a little.....sorry about the signing like I was MONREAL....i just mark the name down when I was typing to make shure I did not use another one and forgot to deleted at the end...
I knew that this thread could take this way....the only reason that I started it was bacause I might get accepted into an Advance Standin Program AND a perio posgraduate and wanted to ask your opinion on what to do...
I know that generaly people will think that what they did is the best, that is normal and understandable (otherwise you would not have done it right?) so everybody that I have talk to in person give me advice based on their own expirience....but that is not what I want...I think that resi and advanced dds are respectable programs but what if I make the wrong move....
I dont know, I am only 24 years old, maybe I just have to learn that there is nothing wrong with which path you take as long as in the end I can PRACTICE DENTISTRY IN THE USA...
I also know a lot of people who have done postgraduate and an advence standing after it...they are happy, have debt to the neck but they are very happy practicing...
You might continue....jajajajajajajajajajaja

 

[toothbud5]

hi guys,
this is a good thread and this is an important discussion.I am currently in an advanced standing DMD program that I got in after hardship for 2 yrs, and I found out about the option of post grad programs a little too late.In the school that i am in there are some foreign dentists doing pg courses in pedo, prostho,without the DMD/DDS.........somedays I wonder if that is what I should have done, some days dental school seems repetitive, boring and unnecessary, while some days the program seems educative and seems to enhance my knowledge, but still if I was accepted to both the program and I had the freedom to work in any state in US I would definitely do the pg option.I knew about the AEGD program and that some states will give you the license after it, but then I spoke to a few private practitioners and asked thme how they feel about employing a foreign dentist with AEGD , and most of them gave a not so positive answer, one suggested they would, so that they can pay them a couple of hundred dollars less per day, and the other guy who said yes, has a sh***y practice.but at the same time i personally know foreign dentist with AEGD who have a good job, so I guess it is a good option,finding a job might be a little tough though and you might be paid a little less though.
but foreign dentists who did pg programs from my school, are doing awesome! i know some who got placement this yr without being asked questions and are paid equally.
another intersting finding was that a couple of the dentists said they would be hesitant to employ even foreign grads with an advanced standing DDS/DMD........what can we say for that one!!
In the office that I worked as a dental assistant past one yr, employed a foreign dentist who did advanced standing, the owner was a little not so happy with him and always doubted his abilities, though i thought he wasnt worst than other US trained dentists in the office.
so overall, i think the road is tough and one needs to work hard to make it good. and luck would be a key as well!and in the end we all will do good regardless of whatever path we take!!

 

[g3k]

Monreal: It was a joke. I knew you both were different... I did my homework 😉

Venedoctor: See what you want to do. If you want to be a periodontist your whole life and you know the states you are going to be in and you know the licensure guideines for those states; pick the residency. If you want freedom of practicing anywhere go for the DMD/DDS. It is worth the time and money.
Good luck in your decision.

 

[g3k]

Happy ? It's a pressure cooker over here !! I'm stressing and starting to worry about graduation/requirements/interviews/boards already ! But it's all worth it. And yes, very happy ...

I hear a lot of good things about your program. Looks like Dr. Berthold is really stirring things up over there. I also read one of your other posts about the program, and it sounds like you're having a great time ! I am really really happy for you. Remember where we were a couple of years back ! What a difference ... we've come a long way.
As for me, I'm currently applying/interviewing for GPR's on the east coast, and hopefully will find a one I like. I'll keep you posted.
I know this may sound a bit pre-mature to you, but if I were you (which I kind of am), I would start thinking about your post-graduation opportunities. These 2 years (1.5 actually) will go by QUICK! You want to make sure you find the right place to practice, and do enough interviews, whether it's buying a practice, associateships, start-up practice, post-grads ? Think about your options. It's never too early. What will you be doing June 2009 !! Will it be or 😴 ?

BTW, what board exam does UMN prepare you for ? Or will you just sit for state boards ? Does Minnesota do the PGY-1 licensure thing ? Here, we'll be taking the WREBS. Cal board is becoming obsolete by the minute, specially since the PGY-1 law is expected to pass any minute here in California.

Alright G ! Keep up keeping up !

Hey Sherif... I am sure it is that way!! I know what a difference. I sometimes cannot believe it! Thank you for all the help. And thanks for the advice. I need that piece of motivation every now and then! 😀
We host the ADLEX. I think currently 40 states accept these boards. So that is a good one. It is hosted three times throughout the year and we can take it all before we graduate, which makes it a sweeter deal.
It will be pretty cool to have the PGY1- it makes more sense than these licensure exams. I don't know if Minnesota has that option! I will have to find that out.