Advertising for Dental Services

[AhhPuller]

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Members don't see this ad.

Why do you guys think dentists spend so much on dental advertising, while physicians don't really do it to the same extent? Am I reading too much into it by thinking that there may be too great a supply in the market?

 

[aphistis]

Nationwide, there's a significant shortage of dentists.

In urban & suburban areas, however, many places are locally saturated. You have a hundred dentists competing for the same 50,000 yuppies and their disposable income. I won't disparage all those folks, since choosing where they want to hang their shingle is 100% their own prerogative, but at the same time I don't feel too sorry for them if they have trouble getting their practice established because they're in an area that's already packed full of providers. In a word, opening a dental practice is about one thing: location, location, location.

 

[jabeck74]

Is there any kind of data out there about locations of the country that have a shortage of dentists? I would like to do some sort of market research before I open mine.

 

[12YearOldKid]

This is one area where I disagree with Bill.

296,000,000 people in the US / 185,000 dentists in the US = 1600 people per dentist

A strong, healthy practice needs about 1500 to 2000 ACTIVE patients per dentist. Considering that only a third of US citizens routinely seek dental care, that creates some pretty significant competition to get reliable, paying patients in your chair.

Despite what the public health scaremongers will tell you, there is no national shortage of dentists. And you are 100% correct about the reason for so much dental advertising -- competition.

Don't let that scare you, though. Dentistry is a great profession and I have yet to meet a starving DMD or DDS.

 

[aphistis]

This is one area where I disagree with Bill.

296,000,000 people in the US / 185,000 dentists in the US = 1600 people per dentist

A strong, healthy practice needs about 1500 to 2000 ACTIVE patients per dentist. Considering that only a third of US citizens routinely seek dental care, that creates some pretty significant competition to get reliable, paying patients in your chair.

Despite what the public health scaremongers will tell you, there is no national shortage of dentists. And you are 100% correct about the reason for so much dental advertising -- competition.

Don't let that scare you, though. Dentistry is a great profession and I have yet to meet a starving DMD or DDS.

Actually, let's take a closer look at that, arbitrarily using Indiana as a sample.

http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-1.htm
http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-2.htm
http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-3.htm

If you look on pages 1 & 2, you'll see that over 1/3 (34.6%) of Indiana's dentists are concentrated within three counties--Marion County (i.e. Indianapolis), Allen County (i.e. Fort Wayne, the state's second largest city), and Lake County (greater Chicago area).

http://www.stats.indiana.edu/population/PopTotals/historic_counts_counties.html

Marion County population, 2000 census: 860,454
Lake County population, 2000 census: 484,564
Allen County population, 2000 census: 331,849

Subtotal: 1,676,897, or 27.6% of the state's population.

Those three counties do represent significant population sinks, but the population densities don't keep pace with the concentration of providers.

Second, a picture is worth a thousand words.

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/factbook02/FB302.htm

Finally, I think you're overestimating the number of dentists in practice. I've never seen a figure as high as the 185,000 you mention. HHS, in the link given, reported 164,500 practicing dentists in 1999, and as we've all had beaten into our heads, the number of dentists practicing nationwide has been in decline. I think 160,000 is a fair estimate, and adjusting that parameter alone boosts the patiententist ratio of your equation by a good 15%.

Taking a closer look, I think I agree with you that the forecasted shortage isn't as big a problem as a some folks think, and I recognize there are a lot of confounding variables that would have to be addressed in order to conclusively resolve the matter. I do, however, think there's more than enough evidence available to support my assertion that competition is highly location-dependent, easily avoided if one wishes, and by no means a universal problem within the profession.

 

[AhhPuller]

Actually, let's take a closer look at that, arbitrarily using Indiana as a sample.

http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-1.htm
http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-2.htm
http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-3.htm

If you look on pages 1 & 2, you'll see that over 1/3 (34.6%) of Indiana's dentists are concentrated within three counties--Marion County (i.e. Indianapolis), Allen County (i.e. Fort Wayne, the state's second largest city), and Lake County (greater Chicago area).

http://www.stats.indiana.edu/population/PopTotals/historic_counts_counties.html

Marion County population, 2000 census: 860,454
Lake County population, 2000 census: 484,564
Allen County population, 2000 census: 331,849

Subtotal: 1,676,897, or 27.6% of the state's population.

Those three counties do represent significant population sinks, but the population densities don't keep pace with the concentration of providers.

Second, a picture is worth a thousand words.

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/factbook02/FB302.htm

Finally, I think you're overestimating the number of dentists in practice. I've never seen a figure as high as the 185,000 you mention. HHS, in the link given, reported 164,500 practicing dentists in 1999, and as we've all had beaten into our heads, the number of dentists practicing nationwide has been in decline. I think 160,000 is a fair estimate, and adjusting that parameter alone boosts the patiententist ratio of your equation by a good 15%.

Taking a closer look, I think I agree with you that the forecasted shortage isn't as big a problem as a some folks think, and I recognize there are a lot of confounding variables that would have to be addressed in order to conclusively resolve the matter. I do, however, think there's more than enough evidence available to support my assertion that competition is highly location-dependent, easily avoided if one wishes, and by no means a universal problem within the profession.

Very interesting points Bill. The BLS state that there are approximately 150K working dentists in the United States. If your argument is correct, and I agree that it's a very sound one, then a lot of dentists in these "dense" areas MAY be working with less than the 1500 to 2000 patients needed to have a successful practice. Then again, it may be an indication that those in the rural areas simply do need see a dental professional.

 

[AhhPuller]

Actually, let's take a closer look at that, arbitrarily using Indiana as a sample.

http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-1.htm
http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-2.htm
http://www.state.in.us/isdh/publications/dental1998/chapter2/table_2b17-3.htm

If you look on pages 1 & 2, you'll see that over 1/3 (34.6%) of Indiana's dentists are concentrated within three counties--Marion County (i.e. Indianapolis), Allen County (i.e. Fort Wayne, the state's second largest city), and Lake County (greater Chicago area).

http://www.stats.indiana.edu/population/PopTotals/historic_counts_counties.html

Marion County population, 2000 census: 860,454
Lake County population, 2000 census: 484,564
Allen County population, 2000 census: 331,849

Subtotal: 1,676,897, or 27.6% of the state's population.

Those three counties do represent significant population sinks, but the population densities don't keep pace with the concentration of providers.

Second, a picture is worth a thousand words.

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/factbook02/FB302.htm

Finally, I think you're overestimating the number of dentists in practice. I've never seen a figure as high as the 185,000 you mention. HHS, in the link given, reported 164,500 practicing dentists in 1999, and as we've all had beaten into our heads, the number of dentists practicing nationwide has been in decline. I think 160,000 is a fair estimate, and adjusting that parameter alone boosts the patiententist ratio of your equation by a good 15%.

Taking a closer look, I think I agree with you that the forecasted shortage isn't as big a problem as a some folks think, and I recognize there are a lot of confounding variables that would have to be addressed in order to conclusively resolve the matter. I do, however, think there's more than enough evidence available to support my assertion that competition is highly location-dependent, easily avoided if one wishes, and by no means a universal problem within the profession.

Very interesting points Bill. The BLS state that there are approximately 150K working dentists in the United States. If your argument is correct, and I agree that it's a very sound one, then a lot of dentists in these "dense" areas MAY be working with less than the 1500 to 2000 patients needed to have a successful practice. Then again, it may be an indication that those in the rural areas simply do need see a dental professional. Let's just wait til the vaccine hits..

 

[DrJeff]

Rural is great! 👍 👍 The county that I live in in CT, based on the 2004 U.S. census has 114,343 residents and based on the list I have of dentists in the county, we have 36 dentists (including specialists) in the county, so on outright numbers(even including the specialist in the math), thats 3,176 patients per dentist). That actually put s me and my partner slightly ahead of the curve since we have just over 6500 active patients in the practice with an average over the 5 years since I've been in the practice of 47.8 new patients per month coming into the practics vs. a 5 years average of 5.8 patients a month having their charts go "inactive" (i.e. no visits in the last 2 years, transferring out of the practice, or patient death).

Plus the decay rate tends to be higher in a rural setting. On average I'll typically see 2 to 3 new patients a month that have greater than 20 carious lesions 😱 😍 😀 , and based on the numbers that we track in the office, the "average" new patient that came into the practice last year had 4.6 teeth with carious lesions that required 13.7 surfaces of restorative material (amalgam, composite, porcelain, etc). Those new patients also averaged just under $1350 worth of work done on them in the following 6 months after their initial examination. In general the work load in my practice is roughly 70-75% of the procedures I'm doing on a daily basis is on those "new" patients (i.e. patients of record in the office for less than 1 year) and the remainder being "old" patients with either the work being done due to emergency(i.e. fractured cusp) or found on routine 6 month recall visit/exam. I also tend to do more direct placment restorative work on the new patients and more crown and bridge wok on the established patients. The numbers reflect this, as on average if an "old" patient has work done in my office in a calender year, their average expendature in the office is just under $1850 (more likely to need an endo/build up and crown), and as crude as this may sound, you'll often learn to think of that large (close to the pulp) amalgam or composite that you place now as a future endo and crown.

Oh and 1 last advantage to the rural practice with respect to advertising. Essentally all the advertising that one doe sin my area is a simple 1 line listing in the phone book, no big color adds, billboards, radio ads, etc. Jst good old fashioned word of mouth from happy patients!

 

[TKD]

This is one area where I disagree with Bill.

296,000,000 people in the US / 185,000 dentists in the US = 1600 people per dentist

A strong, healthy practice needs about 1500 to 2000 ACTIVE patients per dentist. Considering that only a third of US citizens routinely seek dental care, that creates some pretty significant competition to get reliable, paying patients in your chair.

Despite what the public health scaremongers will tell you, there is no national shortage of dentists. And you are 100% correct about the reason for so much dental advertising -- competition.

Don't let that scare you, though. Dentistry is a great profession and I have yet to meet a starving DMD or DDS.

wrong. statistically that holds no weight. you can't just take avgs and assume dentists are evenly located throughout the country. fact is dentists are clustered closer to metropolitan areas. travel to upstate new york and you'll know what i'm talking about. can't understand how many young grads in nyc graduate, yet very few travel upstate, where patients literally wait over 6 months to get a root canal done. many other areas like this as well, rural PA another example that I personally am aware of.

now to the original question - why dentists spend on advertising?? i don't know, i am against most advertising that goes on nowadays (bleaching 1/2 off, free exams, etc). much of the advertising is pushed by office managers who don't view health care the same way we do.

 

[12YearOldKid]

wrong. statistically that holds no weight. you can't just take avgs and assume dentists are evenly located throughout the country. fact is dentists are clustered closer to metropolitan areas. travel to upstate new york and you'll know what i'm talking about. can't understand how many young grads in nyc graduate, yet very few travel upstate, where patients literally wait over 6 months to get a root canal done. many other areas like this as well, rural PA another example that I personally am aware of.

now to the original question - why dentists spend on advertising?? i don't know, i am against most advertising that goes on nowadays (bleaching 1/2 off, free exams, etc). much of the advertising is pushed by office managers who don't view health care the same way we do.

right. My numbers were in response to Bill's assertion that nationally, there is a shortage of dentists. I was simply showing that, nationally, there is no such thing.

Even if we assume Bill is right and there are only 160,000 practicing dentists in the US then we have:

296,000,000 people / 160000 dentists = 1850 patients per dentist

Many of those (2/3 if we believe the most commonly thrown around number) will not go to the dentist.

Of course there are areas of local saturation and areas of relative undersupply. That will always be the case. But it is not a national crisis. And even there the numbers lie. It is simply a fact that urbanites utilize dental services more frequently than those in rural communities. It is much more socially acceptable for a 40 year old farmer to have a bombed out or missing #8 than it is for a Chicago businessman. So the disparity isn't quite as bad as it seems.

The public health people promote the scare of a dentist "shortage" because that is what gets them more funding from the government. Dental schools love the idea of a dentist shortage so they can pump young people up with the promise of the "New golden Age of Dentistry" and justify the staggering debt current dental students are incurring. Come on, I want a raise of hands. Who DIDN'T get some form of the "new golden age" speech either just before entering or during orientation? And I bet the intensity of the speech was directly proportional to the amount of debt you were about to incur. I.E. NOVA, BU, and UOP all shouted it a lot louder than Alabama.

And there can be no doubt about the reason for advertising. It is to convince new patients who have dozens of other dentists to choose from that you are the one for them. Competition.

 

[NileBDS]

............. much of the advertising is pushed by office managers who don't view health care the same way we do.

I believe that just about sums up this whole argument.

 

[aphistis]

right. My numbers were in response to Bill's assertion that nationally, there is a shortage of dentists. I was simply showing that, nationally, there is no such thing.

Even if we assume Bill is right and there are only 160,000 practicing dentists in the US then we have:

296,000,000 people / 160000 dentists = 1850 patients per dentist

Many of those (2/3 if we believe the most commonly thrown around number) will not go to the dentist.

Of course there are areas of local saturation and areas of relative undersupply. That will always be the case. But it is not a national crisis. And even there the numbers lie. It is simply a fact that urbanites utilize dental services more frequently than those in rural communities. It is much more socially acceptable for a 40 year old farmer to have a bombed out or missing #8 than it is for a Chicago businessman. So the disparity isn't quite as bad as it seems.

The public health people promote the scare of a dentist "shortage" because that is what gets them more funding from the government. Dental schools love the idea of a dentist shortage so they can pump young people up with the promise of the "New golden Age of Dentistry" and justify the staggering debt current dental students are incurring. Come on, I want a raise of hands. Who DIDN'T get some form of the "new golden age" speech either just before entering or during orientation? And I bet the intensity of the speech was directly proportional to the amount of debt you were about to incur. I.E. NOVA, BU, and UOP all shouted it a lot louder than Alabama.

And there can be no doubt about the reason for advertising. It is to convince new patients who have dozens of other dentists to choose from that you are the one for them. Competition.

Good points, all. 👍

 

[TKD]

right. My numbers were in response to Bill's assertion that nationally, there is a shortage of dentists. I was simply showing that, nationally, there is no such thing.

Even if we assume Bill is right and there are only 160,000 practicing dentists in the US then we have:

296,000,000 people / 160000 dentists = 1850 patients per dentist

Many of those (2/3 if we believe the most commonly thrown around number) will not go to the dentist.

Of course there are areas of local saturation and areas of relative undersupply. That will always be the case. But it is not a national crisis. And even there the numbers lie. It is simply a fact that urbanites utilize dental services more frequently than those in rural communities. It is much more socially acceptable for a 40 year old farmer to have a bombed out or missing #8 than it is for a Chicago businessman. So the disparity isn't quite as bad as it seems.

The public health people promote the scare of a dentist "shortage" because that is what gets them more funding from the government. Dental schools love the idea of a dentist shortage so they can pump young people up with the promise of the "New golden Age of Dentistry" and justify the staggering debt current dental students are incurring. Come on, I want a raise of hands. Who DIDN'T get some form of the "new golden age" speech either just before entering or during orientation? And I bet the intensity of the speech was directly proportional to the amount of debt you were about to incur. I.E. NOVA, BU, and UOP all shouted it a lot louder than Alabama.

And there can be no doubt about the reason for advertising. It is to convince new patients who have dozens of other dentists to choose from that you are the one for them. Competition.

Several good points. But i would encourage you to go to a ER in rural america and see how many dental emergencies present each day. I agree certain stakeholders exaggerate the golden age theory. access to care is a significant problen, but is unfortunately being abused and is an excuse for just about everything nowadays (i.e. expanded function hygienists), i too wish that more attn. would be paid to student debt and small group based learning, as opposed to some of the dentist manufacturing factories out there. funny, yet true comment about intensity of speech!

 

[mdub]

i am against most advertising that goes on nowadays (bleaching 1/2 off, free exams, etc). much of the advertising is pushed by office managers who don't view health care the same way we do.

Or it's because competition drives down net profits for the industry.

 

[TKD]

Or it's because competition drives down net profits for the industry.

most advertising nowadays dumbs dentistry down into a commodity.

 

[mdub]

most advertising nowadays dumbs dentistry down into a commodity.

Like I said, I think the real reason people here oppose it is because it drives down profits. That's not to say that their opposition is somehow morally wrong or anything like that. I understand that people look out for their own self-interest. I do it too.

And to be quite frank, most of dentistry is, in a sense, a commodity. There very fact that pricing charts for dental procedures exist and are easy to find on the internet suggests that it's quite commodified. You have lots of people with similar training, doing similar procedures, with similar results, for similar amounts of money.

You might say, "hold on, what about the variations in quality among dentists?" Sure, there is a range of skill. There's a range of quality in potatoes, corn, hard drives, and RAM, too. But they're still commodities.

So, when you say that the advertising dumbs down dentistry into a commodity, it seems like you're too late. It already has been. I know most people -- particularly professionals -- don't like to hear that, but it's more true than not.

 

[NileBDS]

Like I said, I think the real reason people here oppose it is because it drives down profits. That's not to say that their opposition is somehow morally wrong or anything like that. I understand that people look out for their own self-interest. I do it too.

And to be quite frank, most of dentistry is, in a sense, a commodity. There very fact that pricing charts for dental procedures exist and are easy to find on the internet suggests that it's quite commodified. You have lots of people with similar training, doing similar procedures, with similar results, for similar amounts of money.

You might say, "hold on, what about the variations in quality among dentists?" Sure, there is a range of skill. There's a range of quality in potatoes, corn, hard drives, and RAM, too. But they're still commodities.

So, when you say that the advertising dumbs down dentistry into a commodity, it seems like you're too late. It already has been. I know most people -- particularly professionals -- don't like to hear that, but it's more true than not.

You're entitled to your opinion, however, I strongly differ and am sure that most people on here would as well.