Advice for a pre-med in a guaranteed MD program. Apply out or not?

[TheRadiologist]

My son is will be stating as a freshman in the UIC GPPA Medicine program. The program is 8 years but there is an option to complete the undergraduate part of the program in 3 years using AP credits. He has the option to apply to other schools without loss of the guaranteed spot in the medical school. I am an alumnus of UIC College of Medicine myself and I consider it a decent school and do not feel any great need to apply out. However, my son is interested in applying out, and I am hoping that users of forum can provide useful advice.

If he does not apply out, he can easily save one year at the undergraduate level and perhaps take a year off in medical school for research to boost his application for residency.

I have been told that many med schools do not like applicants that do not spend 4 years at the undergraduate level. Is this really true?

If he finishes all of the degree requirements in three years using AP credits(mostly for general ed reqs), will he be a competitive applicant at the top 20 med schools assuming that he has competitive MCAT, GPA, published research, etc. In other words will finishing undergrad in three years instead of four be held against the applicant even if he is otherwise highly qualified?

If it is necessary to spend 4 years to be a competitive applicant, is it worth spending an extra year at the undergraduate level? In terms of getting a better residency is it better try to go to a top 20 medical school (no year off for research), or is it better to just stick with UIC and do a year of research with the time saved at the undergraduate level.?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

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[rmaj79]

If it is necessary to spend 4 years to be a competitive applicant, is it worth spending an extra year at the undergraduate level? In terms of getting a better residency is it better try to go to a top 20 medical school (no year off for research), or is it better to just stick with UIC and do a year of research with the time saved at the undergraduate level.?

Thanks in advance for you advice.

Why does he want to apply out? I'm at an 8 year combined Ba/MD program as well, the only difference being that I can't apply out. That being said, I can't think of a legitimate reason to apply out... if he is as self-motivated as he sounds I would assume that achieving a satisfying residency through the UIC program would be just as attainable if not easier? Is "boosting the application" worth the stress of becoming a "normal premed" and losing a guaranteed spot?

I've heard that many attendings are often disconcerted with their residents who have finished undergrad in FOUR years because they believe that amount of time is not enough for sufficient emotional/personal development. Quite honestly, I'll be entering the SOM in Fall 2011 and I feel kinda rushed finishing in four years as it is. I have loved every minute of my experience in a combined program thus far, with the caveat that I feel pressure to graduate and "move on".

As you say, if "time is saved," what is lost?

 

[armybound]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Ultimately it's his life and he can do whatever he likes and make his own mistakes.

 

[drizzt3117]

I'd definitely apply out, that's one of the biggest advantages of that type of program, that you have an acceptance in your back pocket and no stress and can pick and choose only programs better than the home program!

 

[armybound]

Whoa I misread that, he gets to apply out AND he gets to keep his guaranteed acceptance? Of course he should apply out. He has nothing to lose.

 

[amine2086]

My son is will be stating as a freshman in the UIC GPPA Medicine program. The program is 8 years but there is an option to complete the undergraduate part of the program in 3 years using AP credits. He has the option to apply to other schools without loss of the guaranteed spot in the medical school. I am an alumnus of UIC College of Medicine myself and I consider it a decent school and do not feel any great need to apply out. However, my son is interested in applying out, and I am hoping that users of forum can provide useful advice.

If he does not apply out, he can easily save one year at the undergraduate level and perhaps take a year off in medical school for research to boost his application for residency.

I have been told that many med schools do not like applicants that do not spend 4 years at the undergraduate level. Is this really true?

If he finishes all of the degree requirements in three years using AP credits(mostly for general ed reqs), will he be a competitive applicant at the top 20 med schools assuming that he has competitive MCAT, GPA, published research, etc. In other words will finishing undergrad in three years instead of four be held against the applicant even if he is otherwise highly qualified?

If it is necessary to spend 4 years to be a competitive applicant, is it worth spending an extra year at the undergraduate level? In terms of getting a better residency is it better try to go to a top 20 medical school (no year off for research), or is it better to just stick with UIC and do a year of research with the time saved at the undergraduate level.?

Thanks in advance for you advice.

Your son is about to start college. I think he should be the one posting this question. I am glad to see you as a parent take interest in his endeavors, but I think he should be the one in the driver seat when decision like this have to be made. Provide him with guidance but do not do all the leg work for him.

But to answer your question, he will be treated just like any other applicants and his chance of acceptance schools outside UIC will depend on his undergraduate GPA, MCAT, extracurriculars and other achievements.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I've never understood why SDN is so anti-parent (btw Original Poster, there is a forum I believe that is parent focused. You might get less grief there).

 

[lovemesomeTJ]

Your son is about to start college. I think he should be the one posting this question. I am glad to see you as a parent take interest in his endeavors, but I think he should be the one in the driver seat when decision like this have to be made. Provide him with guidance but do not do all the leg work for him.

But to answer your question, he will be treated just like any other applicants and his chance of acceptance schools outside UIC will depend on his undergraduate GPA, MCAT, extracurriculars and other achievements.

What the flip, dude?!?! Parents like to be educated, too. I don't recall OP saying that her son is too chicken **** to ask the question himself. She is just curious, and if she relays this information to him, then all the better. Some people don't have time to waste with SDN, and others do. It doesn't make them weak, or lazy...just preoccupied with, I dunno, life?? I swear...🙄

Anyway, OP, I don't know about UIC or how strong a program it is or what your son is looking for in a school, so I can't say whether it would be better to apply out. Maybe he'll find that he absolutely loves it, wants to stay in Ill., has made connections with faculty at the med school level, and life would just be easier with him staying one place for 7+ years. If that were the case, then 7 years would be good, and who cares about other medical schools? Plus, he could keep money in his (or your) pocket by not applying to other schools.

On the other hand, he may find after a couple of years at the undergrad level that he'd like to try something else, maybe even another part of the country. He doesn't HAVE to do 4 years (so long as he'll have completed 90 credits, which I think about rounds out to 3 years), but to play it safe and increase chances at other schools it would be best if he completed the four years.

So I think that in order to keep the most options open, he should complete 4 years, do the best he can, and if that's not up to snuff with other schools, then at least he's got his guaranteed spot.

Oh, and top 20, bottom 20, whatever school's match list you look at, you will see impressive matches in impressive programs all over the country. It's how your son performs in the clinical years and on Step 1 that will particularly count. So what he needs to do is work hard, shine, perform well in those areas, and he'll have better chances at top programs.

 

[Musclemass]

Just so I have this right,

He's in high school, he thinks he knows what he wants to do for medical school (or at least what he doesn't want to do), and you're wondering if he's making the right decision.

FTW, the answer is, he can't possibly have the slightest clue today about what he'll want to do when that time comes, and you don't either. For now, he's in a program, congrats for that, there's nothing further to think about for a good long while.

You both need to take a deep breath.

 

[student113]

With regard to the timing part of your question:

Medical schools like to see that you have at least 3 years of college experience (coursework + EC's) by the time you APPLY. So even for people who graduate in 3 years, they still apply at the end of the 3rd year and use the 4th year to do something else instead of another year of school. So I don't see what you mean by "save a year." He would be entering medical school at the same time even if he finishes in 3 years.

If you are suggesting he could apply out after 2 years of undergrad, that's risky and often not very successful, unless he somehow gets some amazing EC experiences during those 2 years...

But hey he really has nothing to lose, so I would apply out unless he was absolutely in love with the program.

 

[JokerMD]

the extra year is worth it...cause undergrad is sooo much fun 😀

 

[drizzt3117]

The op's son is in a bs/md program so if they don't apply out and grad in 3 years they can start at uic med school right after 3rd year

With regard to the timing part of your question:

Medical schools like to see that you have at least 3 years of college experience (coursework + EC's) by the time you APPLY. So even for people who graduate in 3 years, they still apply at the end of the 3rd year and use the 4th year to do something else instead of another year of school. So I don't see what you mean by "save a year." He would be entering medical school at the same time even if he finishes in 3 years.

If you are suggesting he could apply out after 2 years of undergrad, that's risky and often not very successful, unless he somehow gets some amazing EC experiences during those 2 years...

But hey he really has nothing to lose, so I would apply out unless he was absolutely in love with the program.

 

[Nevadanteater]

If he does not apply out, he can easily save one year at the undergraduate level and perhaps take a year off in medical school for research to boost his application for residency.

He can take a year off in medical school regardless of him taking a longer or shorter time in undergrad. This whole process does not have to take 8 years.

I have been told that many med schools do not like applicants that do not spend 4 years at the undergraduate level. Is this really true?

The general feeling seems to be that they are less successful not because they are finishing early, but that applicants with that extra year are able to accomplish that much more which often makes them more appealing applicants.

If he finishes all of the degree requirements in three years using AP credits(mostly for general ed reqs), will he be a competitive applicant at the top 20 med schools assuming that he has competitive MCAT, GPA, published research, etc. In other words will finishing undergrad in three years instead of four be held against the applicant even if he is otherwise highly qualified?

No, but some schools (many, i think) don't accept AP credit for pre-reqs. This could be a stumbling block in the future. I believe this can be waived on a case by case basis, but regardless your son will want to check individual school requirements.

I think this decision will be a bit easier a year or two into undergrad and probably doesn't need to be made right now. Your son will be able to decide if UIC is the right place for him for an additional 5-7 years after spending some time there.

 

[rmaj79]

I've never understood why SDN is so anti-parent (btw Original Poster, there is a forum I believe that is parent focused. You might get less grief there).

College Confidential?

 

[mmmcdowe]

College Confidential?

Definitely, but I meant here on SDN.

 

[Practitioner]

Why not apply out after 3 years? Even if some programs will review his application and see him as slightly "less experienced" than his peers and he gets nothing but rejection letters he has nothing to loose.

If the consideration being made is whether to finish the fourth year instead of continuing into UIC after the third, I'd say wait till the time comes. Maybe look at the possibility of deferring the UIC position for a year so it matches with the time of applying out to other schools and he has it as a back up -- he gets the 4 years, the UIC position in case, and can apply out if that's what he wants.

As long as he has the position there's nothing to lose. If he gets other offers he can consider them then otherwise he can continue into UIC like he would have otherwise.

If he has to forfeit the position in order to finish the fourth year and then reapply/apply out then I'd say: No. Keep the position.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

what i'm most amazed by is how a name like "theradiologist" has managed to not get taken until now

 

[NickNaylor]

College Confidential?

That forum is even more neurotic than SDN.

For the OP, though, if he can apply out AND keep his acceptance, then why not? There's no reason not to. If he loses his guaranteed acceptance it'd be a little riskier, but if he's capable of getting into a combined program I'm betting that he's motivated enough to do well in college and gain acceptance somewhere else.

 

[schrizto]

Even with the option of applying out, I would not. At UIC-GPPA you get the benefit of a pretty good med school and in-state tuition. To apply out would mean you're either chasing names or unhappy with the school.

It looks like he would only go to another school over UIC if it were a top 20 school. Getting into a top 20 school would mean working to make a much more impressive resume than just meeting the requirements of the BS/MD program. Having a great MCAT, gpa, and published research is easier said than done. I don't think a bigger name med school necessarily translates into a much better residency (when comparing MD schools altogether in general). UIC does just fine.

Also, he has not started the program yet, so though he may be seriously considering applying out now, that may change later.

 

[drizzt3117]

Even with the option of applying out, I would not. At UIC-GPPA you get the benefit of a pretty good med school and in-state tuition. To apply out would mean you're either chasing names or unhappy with the school.

Uic is not exactly cheap...

 

[amine2086]

Uic is not exactly cheap...

The estimated CoA for four years is $262K. Beats some private schools. On the top of that they are planning on increasing the tuition by 7-10%.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

what i'm most amazed by is how a name like "theradiologist" has managed to not get taken until now

Haha, true that.

 

[TheRadiologist]

The estimated CoA for four years is $262K. Beats some private schools. On the top of that they are planning on increasing the tuition by 7-10%.

Just out of curiosity, which specific private schools are cheaper than this? I think Baylor might be one of them.

 

[schrizto]

The estimated CoA for four years is $262K. Beats some private schools. On the top of that they are planning on increasing the tuition by 7-10%.

UIC may be expensive for an IS public school, but the issue isn't even primarily cost here. Even thinking strictly financially, applying out will cost more than staying in the program. You would potentially be paying for 1 more year of undergrad* and then the fees involved in applying for medical schools everywhere (such as app fees and airplane tickets for interviews). I don't think one should expect a top 20 school to cost significantly less than UIC either.

*I say "1 more year of undergrad" because BS/MDs usually have less requirements for the students in the program to award a bachelor's degree, such as being more lenient with gen ed requirements. I don't know if this is the case at UIC, but someone considering applying out may have to take a few more classes to fulfill pre-reqs wanted by other med schools.

So I think someone should only apply out of the program if they are willing to take on the more stress and costs involved. It's not necessarily a bad idea, it's just you'll have to work harder than people in the program who don't plan on applying out at all (for example, volunteering enough hours to look impressive even though you've likely done plenty in hs).

 

[bamtuba]

If I were in the situation described by the OP, I would use that "less stressed than the typical pre-med" time to do even more well-rounded cool stuff in which I was interested with the goal in mind that I would be shooting for an even "better" school, or at least one that would be cheaper and perhaps have great connections to a great residency.

If all else fails he'll have more fun and probably become a much more interesting person even if he doesn't end up getting in at other programs.

 

[flip26]

OP:

Does he have to maintain certain grades, and take the MCAT with a minimum score? I would recommend going this route especially if he could avoid taking the MCAT.

Does he have to get LORs? Again, another huge hassle worth avoiding.

Are there shadowing reqs? And volunteer EC reqs? Anybody interested in medicine should do at least some of this for personal reasons, but again, it would be sweet not having to do it, and never knowing if you have done enough.

Depending on the above, I see far more plusses than minuses.

 

[TheRadiologist]

OP:

Does he have to maintain certain grades, and take the MCAT with a minimum score? I would recommend going this route especially if he could avoid taking the MCAT.

Does he have to get LORs? Again, another huge hassle worth avoiding.

Are there shadowing reqs? And volunteer EC reqs? Anybody interested in medicine should do at least some of this for personal reasons, but again, it would be sweet not having to do it, and never knowing if you have done enough.

Depending on the above, I see far more plusses than minuses.

The program requires you to keep GPA above 3.5. MCAT is required but you will not loose spot in Medical School based on score. If you score below 30 on MCAT, you have to go to remedial summer school before you start M1 year. You have to maintain requirements for the Honors College- this means you have to participate in some “honors” activity every semester like research, volunteer, special honors classes, etc.
The people accepted to the program usually have a lot of medical experience in high school and go though a med school admissions process similar to what college pre-meds go through.

 

[flip26]

The program requires you to keep GPA above 3.5. MCAT is required but you will not loose spot in Medical School based on score. If you score below 30 on MCAT, you have to go to remedial summer school before you start M1 year. You have to maintain requirements for the Honors College- this means you have to participate in some “honors” activity every semester like research, volunteer, special honors classes, etc.
The people accepted to the program usually have a lot of medical experience in high school and go though a med school admissions process similar to what college pre-meds go through.

So a 3.5/30...should not be too tough.

Is it possible to major in anything? Like lib arts? With a guaranteed program, I would hope that there is more freedom in choosing a major. I am probably biased here, but I was a lib arts major, and I felt that it enhanced my app, based on the response I got from interviews.

Is it possible to do a semester or year abroad in this scheme? Lots of traditional science pre meds never get around to doing this, and I think it hurts their personal development, thus hurting their med school app...again, I did a year abroad, a cultural immersion deal, and interviewers were very interested in this.

 

[TheRadiologist]

So a 3.5/30...should not be too tough.

Is it possible to major in anything? Like lib arts? With a guaranteed program, I would hope that there is more freedom in choosing a major. I am probably biased here, but I was a lib arts major, and I felt that it enhanced my app, based on the response I got from interviews.

Is it possible to do a semester or year abroad in this scheme? Lots of traditional science pre meds never get around to doing this, and I think it hurts their personal development, thus hurting their med school app...again, I did a year abroad, a cultural immersion deal, and interviewers were very interested in this.

You can major in anaything you want including multiple majors and minors. You can study abroad, go to NIH for a year to do research, take GAP a year, get JD, MBA, and MPH and still keep your Medical School spot. The students in the program get top priorirty for funded research.

 

[flip26]

You can major in anaything you want including multiple majors and minors. You can study abroad, go to NIH for a year to do research, take GAP a year, get JD, MBA, and MPH and still keep your Medical School spot. The students in the program get top priorirty for funded research.

Based on this and everything else you have posted, I see more positives than negatives. It would be nice knowing that 3.5/30 = med school in a world where 3.7+/32+ is needed to be competitive and nowhere near a guaranteen of admission. There is enough pressure in college, and being a pre med, and a program like this would greatly reduce that pressure.

 

[jla314]

Just wait for a few years so your son can actually experience college and see if he likes UIC. If he doesn't like it, apply out. If he does like it, still apply out. His spot at UIC will be waiting for him, and applying out will, if nothing else, allow him to see other schools and to convince himself that UIC is really the place for him for med school.

It seems like a no brainer to me to apply out and see what the world beyond UIC has to offer.