Advice for Phd/PsyD Student with numerous variables... lol

[devade]

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Hello All,
Let me try to explain my situation and yes I have done a search and there is no one that I can see that is in my situation.

I am a wounded Iraq veteran, that will be medically retired from the military. I will receive a "pension" for life. I have the option of going to school for free with the VA "Voc Rehab Program" (100% tuition, fees, books, etc. paid) So I do not have to worry about ANY costs related to school.

I earned a BS in Psychology at the University of Oregon before joining the military. I did not have a scholarship and when the economy tanked and Oregon raised out of state tuition, I had to work full time whilst in school. Needless to say, my GPA took a big hit an I limped (academically) across the stage for my degree (I know I should've been smarter, but I was the first in my family to have a degree). Sub 3.0 GPA

I want to be a clinical psychologist to help other veterans and their families, but more over help others period. I do NOT want to do research.

I currently live in Hawaii where my only two options for APA accredited schools are University of Hawaii and Argosy Honolulu.

I want to be the best Clinical Psychologist and do not want to tarnish the profession in any way and have read some extremely discouraging things about the Argosy system. I have a family and do not want to relocate for school.
My questions:

Do Phd's automatically mean that I will not get as much "hands-on" as experience as someone with a PsyD?

There are no questions about the quality of education at the UH, but with the state budget woes, there are serious and deep cuts that the UH took/are taking. Is this an example in which "for profit" schools are better?

Which would be better for my situation: to raise my undergrad GPA (possibly by earning another BS) to even have a chance at being accepted at the UH, or go with Argosy where it seems that if you can sign an educational loan (or have means to pay) your in? Since I don't have to worry about any costs, my GPA will not take a hit and I can truly excel.

If I was open to relocating, what in your opinion is my best route to becoming a great Clinical Psychologist?

Thank you for your time and help.
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[buzzworm]

Do Phd's automatically mean that I will not get as much "hands-on" as experience as someone with a PsyD?
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The amount of hands-on clinical experience depends a lot on the specific PhD program. If you check out the Insider's Guide to clinical psychology programs (you can find it at Barnes & Noble), you'll see that programs rate themselves on a 7-point scale, where 1 is almost entirely clinically-focused, and 7 is almost entirely research-focused. My impression is that you will get more hands-on experience with the programs that rate themselves closer to 1 on that scale. That being said, I know that Teacher's College (in New York) rates itself a 4 or so, and gives you a ton of hands-on experience starting your first year.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your service to our country.

Research is an important part of the training of a clinical psychologist, as it informs our clinical work. Whether you pursue a Ph.D. or Psy.D., you will have to be comfortable with research, statistitics, and being at least a consumer (if not producer) of research.

The role of research has more recently become a focus in the VA system. There is a push for more clincally-based research to be done in the VA system, as well as program development/evaluation research.....both of which are headed up by psychologists.

There is also a push for emperically based therapy (Prolonged Exposure Therapy, Cognitive Processing Therapy, etc), so psychologists working in the VA system must learn these treatments. This is again where research informs our practice, and it is important to understand the limitations of the various treatments, based on the research findings.

As for your questions....as long as you find a "balanced" program (one that provides equal time for supervision in therapy and research) you should be fine. There is a book (The Insider's Guide to Clinical/Counseling Psychology) out that rates all doctoral psych programs on a scale, so you have a better idea of the type of program at each university.

To be able to work with other veterans as a clinical psychologist, you will have to come from an APA-accredited program, as well as internship....which may very likely mean you will have to re-locate for both your program and your internship.

In the VA system there are other mental health professionals that work with veterans, so those routes may be worth investigating. I work with both addictions counselors as well as social workers, both of which do hands on work with veterans.

I'll defer the other questions to others on the forum, as I have to run and do a consult.

 

[edieb]

Very well thought-out post!

Do Phd's automatically mean that I will not get as much "hands-on" as experience as someone with a PsyD?

No, there are many university-based PhD programs that offer plenty of hands-on experience. If you buy the Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical Psychology (apa.org/books), you will see a number denoting how research-based vs. clinical-based a program is. You will see some PhD programs are very clinically based.

There are no questions about the quality of education at the UH, but with the state budget woes, there are serious and deep cuts that the UH took/are taking. Is this an example in which "for profit" schools are better?

Professional schools, especially the bottom ones like Argosy and California School of Professional Psychology, are never better in terms of prestige/qualities afforded to you after graduation. The field is very competitive and professional schools are viewed by many in the profession as places where people who couldn't get into a univeristy-based program , matriculate. You can generally gauge the quality of a program by its match rate for internship. Remember: if you do not match, you cannot become a psychologist.

Which would be better for my situation: to raise my undergrad GPA (possibly by earning another BS) to even have a chance at being accepted at the UH, or go with Argosy where it seems that if you can sign an educational loan (or have means to pay) your in? Since I don't have to worry about any costs, my GPA will not take a hit and I can truly excel.

I would definitely raise my GPA, gain some research experience at Uun. of of Hawaii (whether you like research or not, it is needed), join the Hawaii Psychological Association and the American Psychological Association as a student member and network through their listserv, and then apply


If you have any questions, feel free to PM me. Thanks for your service to our country!!![/B]

 

[PrisonPsych]

You may also want to double-check and make sure there is no annual or total cap on how much funding you can receive through the retraining program. Although the Rehab program is much better than the standard GI Bill, IIRC when we were looking into my other half's educational situation (same situation to yours, 40% rated by the VA) there is still a cap on total funding available for re-education. If there is such a cap, it will probably make most for-profit programs prohibitive to complete without investing any of your own money.

 

[Ollie123]

Difficult situation, mostly because of the inability to relocate. Even in the best of circumstances, it is difficult when you really have no choice but to put all your eggs in one basket.

First, PhD absolutely does not mean you won't get as much hands on experience, its a common myth. In fact, on average PhDs have more hands on experience than PsyDs though as others have mentioned it is program dependent.

The economic collapse is hitting everyone. Professional schools haven't been immune to budget cuts, and I certainly wouldn't want to take on 100k in debt right now.

Perhaps one place to start that others haven't mentioned...why is the goal to be a clinical psychologist? Not that I'm saying it isn't a great choice😉 However, your goal of "help other veterans and their families" can be achieved by other paths as well..counseling, social work, etc. Not sure if there are programs for these in Hawaii. Again, not that I'm discouraging you from the path of clinical psychologist, I just want to make sure you've really thought through the options carefully and that clinical psychology is the only route for you to achieve your goal. I think many people default to it as a "helping" profession, but a true clinical psychologist is far more than just a therapist and there are a number of alternative routes to the "helping" aspect of psychology that are just as viable and may have fewer barriers in your situation.

I can't recommend Argosy, but I will also say that while many of us have strong feelings against the school itself, we also recognize that there are certain situations where a person may not have a choice. I think attending such a school will make success more difficult. It may close some doors, opportunities will certainly not be as plentiful as they will at other programs, etc. In some cases, individuals don't have a choice and I think its important to acknowledge that a person at such a program CAN still succeed. That doesn't change my view that such programs are bad for the field and I'd still like to see them shut down for the sake of a broader benefit, but at the same time I wouldn't fault you as an individual for attending the program

You can complete another BA, network like crazy and work really hard and it would still be a huge gamble to ONLY apply to UH. If relocation was an option, it would be less of a gamble and I would probably recommend re-enrolling, working in labs, volunteering, etc.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Like others have said, thank you for your service to your country. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that UH is a very research-focused program, so you probably need a considerable deal of research experience and a good research match to get in. Also, Hawaii is one of the "best" Argosy programs--they place around half their applicants in APA internships. Not ideal to be sure, but you could do worse...

 

[vesper9]

Dear devade,

Thank you for your service! I wanted to give you some thoughts on another possible issue related to working at the VA.

At the end of your training, you would be required to do an internship. The "gold standard" are APA-approved internships, which are very competitive. The VA will only hire psychologists who attend an APA-approved internship.

At present there are only 3 sites in HI (Honolulu VA, Tripler Army Medical Center, and UH) . You can search for them here: http://appic.org/directory/search_dol_internships.asp make sure to select APA-accredited.

I was in a situation similar to yours. I went to a school in my area and was really hoping to secure one of the handful of APA-approved sites for internship. The reality is that by the end of my training, half of these cites were not a good fit (e.g. university counseling centers) or I did not receive an interview at the other half. In the end, I was lucky enough to match to an APA-approved VA internship but on the opposite coast of the country.

While the VA is not the only option for working with veterans, you would be a great asset to the system! I would have a conversation with your family about what sacrifices you are willing to make for this career move (e.g. moving the whole family, you being gone for a year, etc). I would also find out more information about Social Work degrees. In my experience, social workers at the VA do a lot of supportive therapy and are integral parts of interdisciplinary teams (e.g. the OIF/OEF treatment teams).

The VA is also working towards integrating veterans into mental health treatment in roles of peer support. At our VA, we actually have a growing (paid) staff of certified peer specialists, although most are volunteers. I think this is still rare at most facilities, but growing since it was included in the VA's Uniform MH Plan. More info here: http://www.veteranrecovery.org/

Good luck! Please PM if you would like more info about something