Advice for Surgery Orals requested

[Metzenbaums]

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So I finished general surgery residency a few years back. I took the written exam, but had difficulties with it. I never did great on the ABSITE and it showed on the exam. Finally this past month was my last chance to take the exam, so I took it and actually passed this time around. I was actually surprised that I had passed, to be honest.

Since finishing my residency I've been doing fellowship training in a program that doesn't incorporate general surgery procedures in it. So basically I haven't done a general surgery procedure in several years now.

What advice would you guys have for prep for the oral exams? Any good references for those surgeries that I need to review the steps of the operations? Any other ideas to passing the orals?

Thanks

 

[SLUser11]

So I finished general surgery residency a few years back. I took the written exam, but had difficulties with it. I never did great on the ABSITE and it showed on the exam. Finally this past month was my last chance to take the exam, so I took it and actually passed this time around. I was actually surprised that I had passed, to be honest.

Since finishing my residency I've been doing fellowship training in a program that doesn't incorporate general surgery procedures in it. So basically I haven't done a general surgery procedure in several years now.

What advice would you guys have for prep for the oral exams? Any good references for those surgeries that I need to review the steps of the operations? Any other ideas to passing the orals?

Thanks

You will find a lot of useful information in this thread.

In addition, I think it's safe to say that you are high risk for failing the boards. For that reason, if I was in your shoes, I would do the full court press. I recommend taking this course. I don't have any firsthand experience with it, but they have published their results, and they are impressive.

 

[Buzz Me]

So I finished general surgery residency a few years back. I took the written exam, but had difficulties with it. I never did great on the ABSITE and it showed on the exam. Finally this past month was my last chance to take the exam, so I took it and actually passed this time around. I was actually surprised that I had passed, to be honest.

Since finishing my residency I've been doing fellowship training in a program that doesn't incorporate general surgery procedures in it. So basically I haven't done a general surgery procedure in several years now.

What advice would you guys have for prep for the oral exams? Any good references for those surgeries that I need to review the steps of the operations? Any other ideas to passing the orals?

Thanks

What were you doing between residency and fellowship?

 

[Metzenbaums]

What were you doing between residency and fellowship?

I went from residency to fellowship and have been working in that field now. I am board certified in that field, got it first time with writtens and orals. For some reason, though, the general surgery exam just did not come easy to me.

 

[sleeping]

You will find a lot of useful information in this thread.

In addition, I think it's safe to say that you are high risk for failing the boards. For that reason, if I was in your shoes, I would do the full court press. I recommend taking this course. I don't have any firsthand experience with it, but they have published their results, and they are impressive.

I put off my orals during fellowship. I should of just manned up and took them.

You are pretty up to date about this stuff and I value your opinion. I was looking at the Odyssey course vs. the one you recommend. Which one do think is better?

Please PM me, if there is something you rather not discuss on the board. Thanks

 

[SLUser11]

I put off my orals during fellowship. I should of just manned up and took them.

You are pretty up to date about this stuff and I value your opinion. I was looking at the Odyssey course vs. the one you recommend. Which one do think is better?

Please PM me, if there is something you rather not discuss on the board. Thanks

I discuss everything on this board!

The link I posted above is a small, intensive, expensive review course that boasts very impressive pass rates, which are published with links on the website to the articles. I've never done the course, nor do I know anyone that has. However, it's hard to argue with their methods. I believe it's appropriate for someone at a very high risk for failing the boards, or for someone who has already failed them once. Since the OP is in the high-risk category, and has already burned some eligibility years taking the QE, I thought the course was appropriate.

For an average surgeon taking the CE, my guess is that the above-mentioned course is overkill. I personally took the Osler course, and I thought it was a waste of time, as I've mentioned previously. That being said, many people really liked it. I don't have first-hand knowledge of Odyssey, but my guess is that it's similar in caliber to Osler. I would pick one of those two.

 

[Metzenbaums]

I discuss everything on this board!

The link I posted above is a small, intensive, expensive review course that boasts very impressive pass rates, which are published with links on the website to the articles. I've never done the course, nor do I know anyone that has. However, it's hard to argue with their methods. I believe it's appropriate for someone at a very high risk for failing the boards, or for someone who has already failed them once. Since the OP is in the high-risk category, and has already burned some eligibility years taking the QE, I thought the course was appropriate.

For an average surgeon taking the CE, my guess is that the above-mentioned course is overkill. I personally took the Osler course, and I thought it was a waste of time, as I've mentioned previously. That being said, many people really liked it. I don't have first-hand knowledge of Odyssey, but my guess is that it's similar in caliber to Osler. I would pick one of those two.

Actually I'm under the old rules, so I haven't burned any eligibility for the CE regardless of the QE. I have 5 attempts to be able to pass the CE. That being said, I'd rather not have to take it a second time if I can avoid it!

 

[sleeping]

Thanks for the response. I am the worrier type personality. Will take a course as suggested. I feel I rather waste some money now. If it helps me pass it was worth it not to take that dang exam a second time. If I fail, well I tried everything and back to square one.

 

[droliver]

Do you even really need you surgery boards? If you've already passed your subspeciality boards that's probably all you need going forward. In the future, many of the accelerated track surgery specialties (vascular, CTVS, plastics) aren't even going to be board eligible in general surgery.

I did the Osler course in 2003 from which I had 2 observations

1) you could literally just show up and listen to the discussions and be in ok shape if you did any kind of reading during residency

2) there must be some really poor training programs around based on some of the jaw-droppingly bizarre questions and answers that came out of some people's mouths. It made me feel much better heading into the exam.

 

[Metzenbaums]

Do you even really need you surgery boards? If you've already passed your subspeciality boards that's probably all you need going forward. In the future, many of the accelerated track surgery specialties (vascular, CTVS, plastics) aren't even going to be board eligible in general surgery.

I did the Osler course in 2003 from which I had 2 observations

1) you could literally just show up and listen to the discussions and be in ok shape if you did any kind of reading during residency

2) there must be some really poor training programs around based on some of the jaw-droppingly bizarre questions and answers that came out of some people's mouths. It made me feel much better heading into the exam.

Do I absolutely need them? No. Would I like them? Yes. It does open more potential job opportunities. My current job doesn't require it, but what about the next job?

My main issue is regarding procedures that I've not seen in years. What are good, straightforward resources for that? I don't really have the time to read a textbook (sabiston, greenfield, etc), but any good oral review books I think would be helpful.

I was considering the Osler course. I actually took it for the QE the first time taking it. The course was months before the exam and life took over and I felt it didn't help all that much. I took it again with my guarantee this past time and it was given the week right before the exam. I think that is what helped me to pass this time around.

Any other thoughts?

 

[A400]

Do I absolutely need them? No. Would I like them? Yes. It does open more potential job opportunities. My current job doesn't require it, but what about the next job?

My main issue is regarding procedures that I've not seen in years. What are good, straightforward resources for that? I don't really have the time to read a textbook (sabiston, greenfield, etc), but any good oral review books I think would be helpful.

I was considering the Osler course. I actually took it for the QE the first time taking it. The course was months before the exam and life took over and I felt it didn't help all that much. I took it again with my guarantee this past time and it was given the week right before the exam. I think that is what helped me to pass this time around.

Any other thoughts?

I'm afraid there are very few short cuts with the General Surgery Oral boards. There is no way of getting around the time necessary to read. If it's important to you, you will need to find the time. In my case, I would say I studied intensively for 4 weeks right before the Oral boards. In Weeks 2 through 4, prior to the Exam, I was studying when I could after work (I was in fellowship). Then the week prior to the exam, I took 1 week of vacation, and studied about 12-16 hours a day. Maybe some people might just need 2 weeks of study, and others might need 6 months. But you have to put in time accordingly. Otherwise, you will be hard pressed to pass. Looking at the ABS site, the failure rate for the Orals has been 20-28% over the last 5 years.

Oral boards are very difficult exam and preparing for it so that you pass comfortably is difficult. For me, a helpful source was Surgical Decision Making, to outline a management algorithm. But for any specific topic, this outline would then prompt me to read the sections in one of the textbooks (Sabiston/Cameron/Mattox). Then finally, I would read the section in Mastery of Surgery for detailed description of how to do the surgery. Since we all have limited time available, you do need to spend your time wisely, and pick and choose which topics to read during your limited study time. That means skipping certain things, and concentrating on the higher yield, core general surgery topics. But the bottom line is that you have to know the management of all the major general/trauma/vascular surgery topics, and if you say you're going to do something, you have to be able to succinctly describe it.

Fortunately most examiners, especially the ABS examiners, are very fair people who know you are under stress and I do not feel they are trying to deliberately trip you up. In my case, the only examiner I had a problem with was a Local examiner in the Trauma/Critical care room -- who I would have liked to see his exam scores first to see if he had any business examining me. (Each exam room has a National examiner from ABS who is usually a fairly big name and has been doing this a lot -- a thankless job which I would never want. Then there's a Local examiner from the host institution -- I think for some of them, it's their moment to act like a big shot.)

I never took any of the Osler or other review courses, so I don't know how much it helps. Some people like the review course structure. I personally preferred studying on my own. But in any case, it's all about how much quality time was invested.

Good luck to you, and others taking the Orals soon.

 

[Metzenbaums]

Just wanted to give an update on this thread. So I took the Orals in 2014 and got what I felt to be three pretty difficult rooms. The examiners seemed pretty aggressive, at least to me. Needless to say, I did not pass this exam. For that exam I read some old mock oral reviews from a past Osler course and from the Odyssey courses, all from around 2004-2006 timeframe. I felt that they did very little to prepare me for the test.

This year, I decided to take the Osler oral review course over a three day period. In addition to this, I bought the Dimick book - Clinical Scenarios in Surgery. I read through this book, supplementing it with sections of Mastery of Surgery and Greenfield as needed. I took the review course and then was scheduled on day 3 of the exam period, so I had the other two days to study over the mock orals from Osler as well as the other three resources. This year, I felt the examiners were far more laid back and the selection of topics was much easier than last year. I'm not sure if it was a combination of the location of the exam, my preparation, or a bit of both. This time they gave me a pass, so I am now board certified. It's take a few years and more money that it should, but it was successful.

Now I just have to deal with the whole MOC process, but the big hurdle is over.

 

[SLUser11]

Just wanted to give an update on this thread. So I took the Orals in 2014 and got what I felt to be three pretty difficult rooms. The examiners seemed pretty aggressive, at least to me. Needless to say, I did not pass this exam. For that exam I read some old mock oral reviews from a past Osler course and from the Odyssey courses, all from around 2004-2006 timeframe. I felt that they did very little to prepare me for the test.

This year, I decided to take the Osler oral review course over a three day period. In addition to this, I bought the Dimick book - Clinical Scenarios in Surgery. I read through this book, supplementing it with sections of Mastery of Surgery and Greenfield as needed. I took the review course and then was scheduled on day 3 of the exam period, so I had the other two days to study over the mock orals from Osler as well as the other three resources. This year, I felt the examiners were far more laid back and the selection of topics was much easier than last year. I'm not sure if it was a combination of the location of the exam, my preparation, or a bit of both. This time they gave me a pass, so I am now board certified. It's take a few years and more money that it should, but it was successful.

Now I just have to deal with the whole MOC process, but the big hurdle is over.

Congratulations!

 

[Metzenbaums]

Congratulations!

Thanks. It's definitely a good relief to be done.

I did look at the data to compare my group last year to this year to see if there was any difference. I noted 11 of 29 people did not pass in 2013-2014 at my session. This year, there were 8 of 28 not pass in my session. That gives a pass rate last year of about 62% and this year of about 71%. Can't do any stats on this as the other 11 groups at each location are unknown to me. I'm sure the ABS knows this info, but I've never seen anything published that breaks down pass rates by location.

 

[doc05]

congrats. but....based on your previous posts, you must be practicing in CT, vascular, or plastics, so... why put in all the effort on something you don't need?

 

[Metzenbaums]

congrats. but....based on your previous posts, you must be practicing in CT, vascular, or plastics, so... why put in all the effort on something you don't need?

Well, a few reasons. One, I had already signed up for the QE before I found out about becoming boarded. So I took that, passed it, figured that I got past that hurdle, might as well get it all done. Two, a sense of personal accomplishment. Three, to potentially help myself be more marketable for jobs.