Advice From a Friend of Mine

[DrArete]

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[PCxX]

As I have been having some serious doubts lately about going ahead with the post bacc route and going to med school, I decided to get some advice from a friend of mine who is MS3 at a top med school.

I sent her a link to this article - http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/05/physicians-training-prospects-lead-careers-cx_tw_0505doctors.html, because after reading it AND the comments on it by physicians, I was discouraged.

Her response was well thought out, and I think worth sharing.

I still haven't decided what I will do, unfortunately I am living in a foreign country now, and they have been totally unwilling to let me shadow a doctor or scrub into surgery to observe, as that is just not done here by people who aren't med students or residents.

Really, I have 3 options right now - just go ahead and do it and return to the USA in 3 weeks (risky, like anything in life), delay/defer for a year and explore the field more (I'm a non trad and almost 30, so time is not on my side), not do it and keep on in my current job for a few more months before moving to Brazil.



The email from my friend:


I read through the article you sent, and to be honest, I wouldn't be
discouraged by it unless money is the main thing that motivates you to
pursue medicine. I don't think this is the case.

It doesn't take someone too business savvy to know that there are much
easier ways to make money than becoming a doctor. All my non-medicine
friends make much more money than I was making in the PhD program and
what I make now (which is negative) and more than I will be making as
a resident/fellow (which will be at least six years). And they won't
have the debt that I have. That said, sure that for all the fields, in
the end you make enough to pay those back and be content, and in other
firelds, you make a TON of money (cardiothoracic surgery?? transplant
surgery? anesthesia??). Again, these are TERRIBLE reasons to go into
medicine. And I think that you are doing it for the right reasons.

Now, the article is accurate, of course, so the more important
question is are you willing to put up with the long training to get to
doing what you want to do. If the answer is yes, then by all means go
for it, realizing it won't be easy. I went into medicine because I've
had paying jobs that I was good at, but in the end I didn't care about
them. I wanted to learn about medicine, about physiology, about the
human body, and of course, about disease and how to help people. And
these are the same things that motivate me today (by the way. I've
decided to go into internal medicine, with plans to then specialize in
hematology/oncology, cardiology, or critical care. or maybe geriatrics
😉 ). This year has been really tough, but I can honestly say that I
love being in the hospital and talking to and helping patients,
gathering data, making diagnoses, and planning treatment. And none of
that has to do with any paycheck. I'm PAYING to do this right now.

I think you know what you have ahead of you: 1 year post bac, 4 years
schooling, and for surgery, 5-7 years (many programs have a 2 year
research requirement, and you would be silly not to do this and expect
to specialize in a highly competitive surgical field like pediatric
surgery). But then again, during those first five years you'll be
learning, and during those next 5-7, though in training, you will be
actually be a doctor doing what doctors do. Do I study eight hours a
day? Absolutely not, until maybe the day or two before a test when I
have the time and the panic 🙂. Do I work long hours? YES. Today is my
first day off in two weeks. And I have to be back at the hospital at 7
tomorrow. On my ob/gyn rotation, I had one day where I got there a
little before 6am and didn't leave until 9:30 pm. This was the day
before Thanksgiving. On my surgery rotation, I had one shift where I
started at 5:30 AM, worked until 11pm, spent the night at the
hospital, started the enxt day at 6AM, and didn't leave until 4pm. And
there were other days where i was just 6Am-6PM, and most of them were
like that, some shorter. So it's highly doable.

I think that shadowing someone is a good idea, though. I'm surprised
they wouldn't let you. Maybe you should try to argue that, and
convince the surgeon that maybe you could just watch a case or two and
not be scrubbed in.

I agree with what she says in that money should not be the primary motivator. However, concern for one's paycheck is, imo, perfectly reasonable.

When you're going through years of schooling and training with hundreds of thousands to pay in debt, salaries have to be high or else most won't go into it. Altruism is great, but I can guarentee that many good doctors wouldn't have become doctors if a 60,000 salary was all they had to show for it.

There are many less demanding fields where you can help people and still make decent money with around half the extra training (and debt).

 

[DrArete]

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[shiftingmirage]

I still haven't decided what I will do, unfortunately I am living in a foreign country now, and they have been totally unwilling to let me shadow a doctor or scrub into surgery to observe, as that is just not done here by people who aren't med students or residents.

If you are interested in shadowing a doc, could you just come to the US for a couple weeks? Maybe you don't have to move here, but take a vacation and have some scheduled shadowing lined up. I've heard that who ever runs the DO app service has something where you can contact them, and they can hook you up with a DO to shadow as lots of DO schools require a letter from a DO. Even if you are more interested in doing an MD, a surgeon that is a DO will not differ from an MD.

Also, you could try volunteering at a local hospital. Make nice with the docs and nurses and after a while, say, hey, can I observe you as you do x? More likely than not, they would agree.

As for the $ thing, I may be in the minority, but I think it will work itself out. If there ever becomes a time when most physicians cannot afford to practice due to high malpractice and low medicaid reimbursement it will be addressed. Sure some physicians are leaving the field, but if/when a landslide occurs, the problem will get attention and be addressed.

 

[drizzt3117]

Wait till the midterm bloodbath then reevaluate what you think about the future of health care reform.

In the future, as the government moves towards single payer/socialized medicine/universal health care, whatever you want to call it, there will be an inevitable downward pressure on salaries, much more so than what has happened in the past ten or fifteen years. And this will happen. Of course, the government will also have to end up completely financing medical school, as is the case in Europe.

I am not concerned about the money, as doctor or not, I am personally secure in my finances.

I suppose I am under the impression that being a doctor may interesting, and will keep me occupied and contributing in new and different ways.

Of course, I dont know either way at this point.

 

[DrArete]

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[drizzt3117]

I'm sure Clinton didn't think it was going to happen either. But it did. The GOP has a good working relationship with insurance, pharma, and the AMA, we'll see what happens.

I don't think the "mid term bloodbath" will really pan out.

I think it will be more along the lines of traditional mid term losses for the governing party.

Also, even if Republicans regained control, they would not be able to just repeal HCR.

Its very difficult to curtail an entitlement program.

People get used to having something, they get pissed when it is taken away.

My experience in comparing the health system of Spain to that of the USA - doctors in Spain make far less money, have no school debt, and have ****ty short term contracts after their residencies.

However, health care in Spain is, in terms of the whole population, better than it is in the USA. Sure, if you have money in the USA you are fine. But if you don't, you are screwed.

In short, I think HCR will make overall improvements to healthcare for many people, and make conditions worse for doctors.

 

[thesauce]

As I have been having some serious doubts lately about going ahead with the post bacc route and going to med school, I decided to get some advice from a friend of mine who is MS3 at a top med school.

I sent her a link to this article - http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/05/physicians-training-prospects-lead-careers-cx_tw_0505doctors.html, because after reading it AND the comments on it by physicians, I was discouraged.

Her response was well thought out, and I think worth sharing.

I still haven't decided what I will do, unfortunately I am living in a foreign country now, and they have been totally unwilling to let me shadow a doctor or scrub into surgery to observe, as that is just not done here by people who aren't med students or residents.

Really, I have 3 options right now - just go ahead and do it and return to the USA in 3 weeks (risky, like anything in life), delay/defer for a year and explore the field more (I'm a non trad and almost 30, so time is not on my side), not do it and keep on in my current job for a few more months before moving to Brazil.



The email from my friend:


I read through the article you sent, and to be honest, I wouldn't be
discouraged by it unless money is the main thing that motivates you to
pursue medicine. I don't think this is the case.

It doesn't take someone too business savvy to know that there are much
easier ways to make money than becoming a doctor. All my non-medicine
friends make much more money than I was making in the PhD program and
what I make now (which is negative) and more than I will be making as
a resident/fellow (which will be at least six years). And they won't
have the debt that I have. That said, sure that for all the fields, in
the end you make enough to pay those back and be content, and in other
firelds, you make a TON of money (cardiothoracic surgery?? transplant
surgery? anesthesia??). Again, these are TERRIBLE reasons to go into
medicine. And I think that you are doing it for the right reasons.

Now, the article is accurate, of course, so the more important
question is are you willing to put up with the long training to get to
doing what you want to do. If the answer is yes, then by all means go
for it, realizing it won't be easy. I went into medicine because I've
had paying jobs that I was good at, but in the end I didn't care about
them. I wanted to learn about medicine, about physiology, about the
human body, and of course, about disease and how to help people. And
these are the same things that motivate me today (by the way. I've
decided to go into internal medicine, with plans to then specialize in
hematology/oncology, cardiology, or critical care. or maybe geriatrics
😉 ). This year has been really tough, but I can honestly say that I
love being in the hospital and talking to and helping patients,
gathering data, making diagnoses, and planning treatment. And none of
that has to do with any paycheck. I'm PAYING to do this right now.

I think you know what you have ahead of you: 1 year post bac, 4 years
schooling, and for surgery, 5-7 years (many programs have a 2 year
research requirement, and you would be silly not to do this and expect
to specialize in a highly competitive surgical field like pediatric
surgery). But then again, during those first five years you'll be
learning, and during those next 5-7, though in training, you will be
actually be a doctor doing what doctors do. Do I study eight hours a
day? Absolutely not, until maybe the day or two before a test when I
have the time and the panic 🙂. Do I work long hours? YES. Today is my
first day off in two weeks. And I have to be back at the hospital at 7
tomorrow. On my ob/gyn rotation, I had one day where I got there a
little before 6am and didn't leave until 9:30 pm. This was the day
before Thanksgiving. On my surgery rotation, I had one shift where I
started at 5:30 AM, worked until 11pm, spent the night at the
hospital, started the enxt day at 6AM, and didn't leave until 4pm. And
there were other days where i was just 6Am-6PM, and most of them were
like that, some shorter. So it's highly doable.

I think that shadowing someone is a good idea, though. I'm surprised
they wouldn't let you. Maybe you should try to argue that, and
convince the surgeon that maybe you could just watch a case or two and
not be scrubbed in.

I'm not sure what part of the email you thought was particularly well thought out. It's pretty basic stuff and provides little detail aside from her own personal schedule. Besides that, it only represents the opinion of one person, whereas that article cites multiple sources and stats regarding the direction of the industry as a whole. I think it's poor judgment to dismiss the article out of hand because of one opinion.

 

[DrArete]

I'm not sure what part of the email you thought was particularly well thought out. It's pretty basic stuff and provides little detail aside from her own personal schedule. Besides that, it only represents the opinion of one person, whereas that article cites multiple sources and stats regarding the direction of the industry as a whole. I think it's poor judgment to dismiss the article out of hand because of one opinion.

I don't dismiss the article out of hand, and didn't intend to give that meaning. Rather, I took it quite seriously, which is why I wanted to get some feedback from someone currently in medical school who I both know and trust.

My friend doesn't dispute the article, and in fact states that it is true/accurate, and so, one needs to be clear on what you want to get out of medicine and whether or not this matches up with the reality of the field.

Direction of the industry - more work for doctors, less pay, less freedom, and in general an increasing commodification that takes away the mystique of the profession, although, this is true for pretty much everything these days.

 

[saveourpens]

I stopped reading after the typical pre-med blabber.."It doesn't take someone too business savvy to know that there are much
easier ways to make money than becoming a doctor."

 

[thesauce]

I don't dismiss the article out of hand, and didn't intend to give that meaning. Rather, I took it quite seriously, which is why I wanted to get some feedback from someone currently in medical school who I both know and trust.

My friend doesn't dispute the article, and in fact states that it is true/accurate, and so, one needs to be clear on what you want to get out of medicine and whether or not this matches up with the reality of the field.

Direction of the industry - more work for doctors, less pay, less freedom, and in general an increasing commodification that takes away the mystique of the profession, although, this is true for pretty much everything these days.

Fair enough. I do think your assimilation of the information is most important, though. The decision to pursue medicine is a personal choice and one that you'll have to live with for life, so try not to cloud the issue with someone else's priorities.

 

[DrArete]

I stopped reading after the typical pre-med blabber.."It doesn't take someone too business savvy to know that there are much
easier ways to make money than becoming a doctor."

Actually, you stopped reading before then.

If you had read and comprehended, you would have realized that the person who wrote that was MS3, not a pre med.

 

[saveourpens]

Actually, you stopped reading before then.

If you had read and comprehended, you would have realized that the person who wrote that was MS3, not a pre med.

uhhh smart ass, it was the very fact that an M3 was spewing typical pre-med nonsense that I stopped reading at the second sentence.