Advice for a friend

[Kia K5 zoom]

*Hello, I have some questions as my friend has been struggling a lot and looking for opinions. Whether to take ochem 1 for the 4th time and ochem 2 for the second time. Had failed twice before getting a C the third time. C in Orgo 2. Wants to show Medschools that previous failures are not an accurate reflection of them. Doesn’t want to do post bac or smps unless it’s a must in this case.

They are planning to take ochem 1 and 2 at another college with no other classes accompanying. Confident that they can get an A as well as all A’s for there final semester afterwards.

Current standing: 3.4 cgpa 3.0 sgpa (ochem hurts) For EC’s a bit more then thousand hours in both clinical and volunteer work. Starting research in a month. Adequate amount of shadowing. MCAT: 515??

*Let’s say they score a 515. I know y’all ain’t too fond of people guessing there mcat. Would MD still be an option, or is that dream gone and they would have to look at the DO route.

First time: Took orgo with genetics,molecular biology, physics 1 simultaneously along with an EMT course that went for half the semester. Was able to get A (genetics) B+ (Molecular Biology) B+ (physics 1) though throughout this he/she was unable to pass orgo getting an F. Heavy course load. If it helps, switched to pre med late in college.

Second Time: Forced to get an F as they had to leave school due to family matters (After the withdrawal date) though were able to get A's and B’s in all other classes. But unable to succeed in Orgo as the exams were in person.

Third time: (Summer) Family stress continued though was able to keep A’s in all other classes but got a C in Orgo 1 and Orgo 2.

Current ECs:
Clinical

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Caregiver for dementia patient ~ 70

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EMT (ongoing) ~ 800

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Food Bank (ongoing) ~ 100

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Summer Camp Teacher ~ 1700 hours

I am happy to provide any more information if needed!!

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[Mr.Smile12]

Your friend needs to look at DO. If that friend refuses to consider DO and only wants to be an MD-doctor, then the person is going for the degree and not for the career. We have no insight on your friend, who frankly should be posting on their own.

While your friend can take their organic chem classes infinite times to get an A, all the grades will be averaged on the application GPA. The candidate will likely have to explain why they failed so many times and how they changed each time. The reasons given make me think the applicant just wasn't in a condition to make decisions to focus on their goal of being a doctor. Life doesn't stop once one gets into medical school, and I'm cautious about taking the class by itself to improve on a passing grade. What if it doesn't work out and the person gets a B-minus? How about biochemistry? I'm sure you're being a good friend, but they have to answer the question by themselves whether in written or oral format.

The person should have ditched the summer camp work to focus on their organic chemistry grades (earlier) IMO. In fact, it sounds like this person needs to get an organic chem tutor and crush the material, even for the MCAT.

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

Your friend needs to look at DO. If that friend refuses to consider DO and only wants to be an MD-doctor, then the person is going for the degree and not for the career. We have no insight on your friend, who frankly should be posting on their own.

While your friend can take their organic chem classes infinite times to get an A, all the grades will be averaged on the application GPA. The candidate will likely have to explain why they failed so many times and how they changed each time. The reasons given make me think the applicant just wasn't in a condition to make decisions to focus on their goal of being a doctor. Life doesn't stop once one gets into medical school, and I'm cautious about taking the class by itself to improve on a passing grade. What if it doesn't work out and the person gets a B-minus? How about biochemistry? I'm sure you're being a good friend, but they have to answer the question by themselves whether in written or oral format.

The person should have ditched the summer camp work to focus on their organic chemistry grades (earlier) IMO. In fact, it sounds like this person needs to get an organic chem tutor and crush the material, even for the for the MCAT.

Its not that they only want to be an MD-doctor but there are higher match rates going this route vs DO route. Not hating on the DO route in any sense.

I understand if it doesnt work out and they get a B on the 4th time it would look terrible infront of medschools, though if the opposite were to occur would that change anything.

Got an A in Biochemistry. The summer camps were during freshmen and sophmore summers before switching to pre med in the middle of junior year.

Thank you!

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

I wouldn't self-flagellate taking Orgo a 4th time regardless. As said, they average the grade anyway so 2 Fs, a C and an A is still like maybe a D? Not a worthy time investment.

Apply to DO schools. Match rate isn't appreciably different for most non-surgical specialties and an ambitious DO can def still snag Gen Surg and some other assorted subspecialties.

 

[Goro]

Its not that they only want to be an MD-doctor but there are higher match rates going this route vs DO route. Not hating on the DO route in any sense.

I understand if it doesnt work out and they get a B on the 4th time it would look terrible infront of medschools, though if the opposite were to occur would that change anything.

Got an A in Biochemistry. The summer camps were during freshmen and sophmore summers before switching to pre med in the middle of junior year.

Thank you!

I'd say after taking it and failing organic chemistry multiple times, those grades are and accurate assessment of their capability.

No grade is a reflection of a person, nor are they measures of someone's worth as a human being. But your friend has had multiple chances to try and show at least minimal competency, if not mastery, and not done that.

Your friend also needs to lose the attitude, and realize that Beggars can't be choosy. For a reinventor, DO schools have to be on the list.

And your friend needs to do either a do-it-yourself postbac or an smp. They should read my post on guide to reinvention for pre-meds.

We we also don't bother with hypotheticals here. It's a waste of time. When your friend has completed their reinvention, and has an MCAT score, then we could tell them their chances and provide a school list on top of that.

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

Would a master's degree in either biotechnology or medical sciences suffice?

My friend had wanted to drop ochem during those semesters but was pressured by their advisor to not.

Thank you!

 

[chilly_md]

No, a regular masters does not help. Those grades are factored in for DO, but it is assumed most people will do very well in those kinds of masters vs an SMP.

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

What is a post-bac? From what I see on the internet, it's about retaking undergraduate-level courses, "you can retake classes you took as a pre-med in college to raise your grades." My friend has received an A/B+ in every pre-med course except Orgo. Would that mean just retaking only those classes? Very confused...

Thank you!!

 

[Goro]

What is a post-bac? From what I see on the internet, it's about retaking undergraduate-level courses, "you can retake classes you took as a pre-med in college to raise your grades." My friend has received an A/B+ in every pre-med course except Orgo. Would that mean just retaking only those classes? Very confused...

Thank you!!

It means taking upper level courses that mimic those in med school:
Anatomy, physiology, immunology, medical microbiology, Medical biochemistry, neuroscience, pathology, parasitology, by statistics, Medical genetics, pathophysiology,

It would be foolish for your friend to retake courses that they already have received it A or B in.

Like it or not, your friends trouble with Organic Chemistry shows an inability to master concepts, and bad choice making

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

I understand, though I would like to raise point that every semester they had taken orgo it was accompanied with 18 credits. Most semesters had 21 or 22 credit hours. Though I realize med schools won’t care about this.

Of the courses listed, they had taken physiology (A), Immunology (A), Anatomy (A), and pathology (A), pathophysiology, (A)

Some of the courses are not offered though however would it make sense to take medical bio chem and medical genetics at a local 4 year college close to home?

So basically, taking only those 2 courses?

* Hi, I am the friend in this scenario taking over to help as it’s about me. previously a finance major switched to finance/biological sciences late in junior. Willing to provide any information on my academic career in order to gain a clear idea of what to do

I appreciate all the help. Thank you!!!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Its not that they only want to be an MD-doctor but there are higher match rates going this route vs DO route. Not hating on the DO route in any sense.

Sorry, I'm catching up... but isn't that hating on the DO route? How is it not throwing shade at those who get a DO for their medical degree? Previous posts have stated this statement is not true.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I understand, though I would like to raise point that every semester they had taken orgo it was accompanied with 18 credits. Most semesters had 21 or 22 credit hours. Though I realize med schools won’t care about this.

Of the courses listed, they had taken physiology (A), Immunology (A), Anatomy (A), and pathology (A), pathophysiology, (A)

Some of the courses are not offered though however would it make sense to take medical bio chem and medical genetics at a local 4 year college close to home?

So basically, taking only those 2 courses?

* Hi, I am the friend in this scenario taking over to help as it’s about me. previously a finance major switched to finance/biological sciences late in junior. Willing to provide any information on my academic career in order to gain a clear idea of what to do

I appreciate all the help. Thank you!!!

You need to have your friend speak up for themselves. If that person cannot do that, they can't stand up for themselves in medical school, much less stand up for others they care for. That person needs to set up their own account. I know you're trying to be a good friend, but you wouldn't impersonate this person by signing in for them for a lecture (that would be fraud), right?

Your friend wants to take an overload plus care for family and maybe work to support themselves? Admissions committees do not give pity points to people who do this. Your friend's academic advisor should be fired for allowing this to happen multiple times PLUS force this student to cope with personal challenges.

Yes, we do care about the upper-level biomedical courses if this person got an A, but we don't give them credit for not handling organic chemistry at the same time. In fact, we would wonder, who in their right mind would do this to themselves? Would we want this person to be at our school?

The ends do not always justify the means, and adcoms are concerned about the means too.

 

[Goro]

I understand, though I would like to raise point that every semester they had taken orgo it was accompanied with 18 credits. Most semesters had 21 or 22 credit hours. Though I realize med schools won’t care about this.

Of the courses listed, they had taken physiology (A), Immunology (A), Anatomy (A), and pathology (A), pathophysiology, (A)

Some of the courses are not offered though however would it make sense to take medical bio chem and medical genetics at a local 4 year college close to home?

So basically, taking only those 2 courses?

* Hi, I am the friend in this scenario taking over to help as it’s about me. previously a finance major switched to finance/biological sciences late in junior. Willing to provide any information on my academic career in order to gain a clear idea of what to do

I appreciate all the help. Thank you!!!

Can you get retroactive W from your school on the Fs?

This is a thing at some schools, and the worst that they will tell you is no. Contact their registrar to find out.

Can you give us a year by year cgpa, and S gpa?

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

Sorry, I'm catching up... but isn't that hating on the DO route? How is it not throwing shade at those who get a DO for their medical degree? Previous posts have stated this statement is not true.

I apologize to all those who I have offended by that. I am new to SDN and have not seen posts concerning this. From what I had heard there are more hurdles for those who go the DO route and wish to be specialty doctors. I am not discrediting their education in any way.

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

You need to have your friend speak up for themselves. If that person cannot do that, they can't stand up for themselves in medical school, much less stand up for others they care for. That person needs to set up their own account. I know you're trying to be a good friend, but you wouldn't impersonate this person by signing in for them for a lecture (that would be fraud), right?

Your friend wants to take an overload plus care for family and maybe work to support themselves? Admissions committees do not give pity points to people who do this. Your friend's academic advisor should be fired for allowing this to happen multiple times PLUS force this student to cope with personal challenges.

Yes, we do care about the upper-level biomedical courses if this person got an A, but we don't give them credit for not handling organic chemistry at the same time. In fact, we would wonder, who in their right mind would do this to themselves? Would we want this person to be at our school?

The ends do not always justify the means, and adcoms are concerned about the means too.

I understand this is a HUGE red flag. Currently looking into upper-level biomedical courses to take at nearby institutions. Not looking for pity points from medschools. Rather an opportunity to show a demonstration of growth and past troubles are behind me.

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

Can you get retroactive W from your school on the Fs?

This is a thing at some schools, and the worst that they will tell you is no. Contact their registrar to find out.

Can you give us a year by year cgpa, and S gpa?

Currently trying to get a hardship withdrawal for my second semester of taking ochem 1.

Year 1: 3.70 cgpa 2.5 sgpa (C+ in stats, one class)

Year 2 (switched colleges moved away) : 3.45 cgpa

Summer: 3.64 cgpa

Year 3: 3.261 cgpa

Summer (Switched to premed) : 3.33 cgpa 2.9 sgpa (B's in intro classes Bio 2, Chem 1 & 2, 21 credit hours)

Year 4: 3.175 cgpa 2.94 sgpa (3.6 sgpa w/o ochem, every class taken this year was a pre-med required course except for medical terminology which doesn't count, 43 credit hours)

Summer (Current): 3.25 cgpa 3.1 sgpa (C in ochem 1 & 2, 15 credit hours)

I appreciate all the help. If this was not the format asked, please let me know as I will fix it.
Thank you!!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I understand this is a HUGE red flag. Currently looking into upper-level biomedical courses to take at nearby institutions. Not looking for pity points from medschools. Rather an opportunity to show a demonstration of growth and past troubles are behind me.

Wait, but you already said you got A's in four/five upper-level biomedical science classes:

Of the courses listed, they had taken physiology (A), Immunology (A), Anatomy (A), and pathology (A), pathophysiology, (A)

I think showing us growth involves accepting that you had past troubles and the consequences of bad decisions that resulted in you taking organic chemistry in an overloaded schedule and prioritizing your other classes and your personal issues... at least TWICE. Maturity is demonstrated over time and making GOOD decisions.

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

Wait, but you already said you got A's in four/five upper-level biomedical science classes:

I think showing us growth involves accepting that you had past troubles and the consequences of bad decisions that resulted in you taking organic chemistry in an overloaded schedule and prioritizing your other classes and your personal issues... at least TWICE. Maturity is demonstrated over time and making GOOD decisions.

@Mr.Smile12 Yes, I have gotten A's in several upper-level biomedical science classes. I understand that showing maturity for my previous actions takes time. What would be the appropriate decision moving forward? I can confidently state that all issues that hindered my academic career are no longer impacting me. I don't know how else to convey this other than saying I am ready to commit 100% to my education.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

@Mr.Smile12 Yes, I have gotten A's in several upper-level biomedical science classes. I understand that showing maturity for my previous actions takes time. What would be the appropriate decision moving forward? I can confidently state that all issues that hindered my academic career are no longer impacting me. I don't know how else to convey this other than saying I am ready to commit 100% to my education.

Read Goro's Guide to Reinvention and take no shortcuts to your MCAT preparation. Do you research on DO's. Carefully consider expert advice.

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

@Mr.Smile12
I have read Goro's guide to reinvention, and will soon be starting MCAT prep as well as getting a private tutor to help with ochem (plan to study for 5 months before taking it).
As I have already taken several upper-level biomedical sciences, would it be worth taking ochem 1 & 2 again with no other classes accompanying, ( I know this was mentioned earlier by me)? Only saying this cause, I have already gotten A's in most classes that were on the DIY post bacc list. Confident I can get an A this time.
I plan on applying to DO schools though, would MD schools be out of the picture, if even I got a good MCAT score?

Read Goro's Guide to Reinvention and take no shortcuts to your MCAT preparation. Do you research on DO's. Carefully consider expert advice.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You have replied to a couple posts as you are starting MCAT prep and getting a tutor for O Chem, not your friend. This actually matters little to me who actually you are referring to. What matters is you owning the decisions you have made, and make the necessary adjustments to be successful. The O chem score helps us determine who might be able to handle upper level science courses. What I would like to emphasize is for you NOT to take the MCAT before you are completely prepared and your practice scores are in the target range. A good or bad score will have a big impact on reaching your goals. Taking it too soon may reflect poorly on your decision making and maturity. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[Kia K5 zoom]

You have replied to a couple posts as you are starting MCAT prep and getting a tutor for O Chem, not your friend. This actually matters little to me who actually you are referring to. What matters is you owning the decisions you have made, and make the necessary adjustments to be successful. The O chem score helps us determine who might be able to handle upper level science courses. What I would like to emphasize is for you NOT to take the MCAT before you are completely prepared and your practice scores are in the target range. A good or bad score will have a big impact on reaching your goals. Taking it too soon may reflect poorly on your decision making and maturity. Good luck and best wishes.

This is “friend who needs advice”, I will be taking the MCAT after 5 months of study + tutoring.
If I were to get an A in ochem 1 & 2 as well receiving a decent MCAT score. Would MD still be an option? I will be explaining to med schools that during those semesters I had received an F, I had family matter relating to my grand mother who had a fallen sick and thought it was lethal according to doctors . This affected me greatly as I grew up with my grandmother (outside of USA) for several years as parents were in college/working in the USA. She is someone I adore dearly, and the thought of loosing her sent me into a downward trajectory. My grandfather passed the year prior. Not looking for pity but explaining my situation.

 

[chilly_md]

An A is meaningless, you've seen the same material two or more times. An A in those classes is what would be expected.

Explaining your circumstances is not going to help. You would have taken leave for school or done poorly across most of your courses during those terms. Overall, you say you are not looking for pity points from medical school, but that is what you are trying to do. From glancing at your GPAs (summer term will not be a separate line on AMCAS), there was not a year you did particularly well in from an MD standpoint, whether before or after you switched to pre-med. This is a consistent pattern across all 4 years.

Please make your own account if you want to ask more questions or share additional details. It is too confusing for users to look for whether it is you or your friend who is speaking, and sharing of accounts is against SDN policy.

 

[lostcadet21]

@Mr.Smile12 @Goro @chilly_md

Hi, this is the "friend". I have made my own account to continue this discussion, due to causing confusion. Sorry for going against SDN policy.

For a little back story, though it wouldn't help probably, I was a Finance/Economics/Supply Chain major and Data Science minor though I wanted to switch after my grandfather's death during my 2nd year of college. He was a doctor and I had always wished to be a doctor due to him but was pressured into going the Investment banking route, I had planned on going back to college later in life to pursue medicine but decided that I couldn't wait and didn't care about the money I would receive from the IB route in year 4. Had several internship offers but declined them to switch ( most here would probably think I am an idiot, which is probably true ).

I was hesitant to withdraw from all my courses those semesters, due to financial and scholarship reasons. Luckily most of my professors had allowed me to continue from home, sending me notes from class or taking exams at a later date in the semester / or Online tests proctored through Zoom. Unfortunately, I was unable to do it for ochem as the professor had required all exams to be in-person, no make-up exams.

I'm lost on what to do to show med schools that I'm not the student that my gpa trend shows. I have several A's in upper-level biomedical courses, so I assume that rules out a DIY post bacc. Retaking orgo 1 & 2 for an A seems pointless from yall's perspective.

I appreciate this discussion a lot as there are not that many people I can go to questions on what to do next. Thank you!!

Year 1: 3.7 cgpa 2.5 sgpa (one class)
Year 2: 3.5 cgpa
Year 3: 3.4 cgpa
Year 4: 3.026 (3.58 cgpa w/o orgo) 2.973 sgpa ( 3.4 sgpa w/o orgo)
Final Semester: ??

 

[Goro]

I can't sugar coat this, multiple Fs in Orgo combined with a declining GPA trend is going to look really, really bad.

And Adcoms aren't likely to parse a transcript to say "well, it was only Orgo this this applicant did poorly in".

 

[lostcadet21]

@Goro I know, I messed up big time. What should I do from here onwards, I plan on applying to all DO schools. Do I take a higher level ochem for another semester afterwards? DIY post bacc wont help it seems, SMP is super costly.

 

[LizzyM]

Its not that they only want to be an MD-doctor but there are higher match rates going this route vs DO route. Not hating on the DO route in any sense.

The match rates for people who took o-chem 4 times are more relevant here than a discussion of match rates for MD vs DO. Sadly, it's apples and oranges and the fact that MD grads match better has something to do with what those students go into medical school with (they are, in the aggregate, a stronger pool) than what initials follow their names.

 

[chilly_md]

@Goro I know, I messed up big time. What should I do from here onwards, I plan on applying to all DO schools. Do I take a higher level ochem for another semester afterwards? DIY post bacc wont help it seems, SMP is super costly.

If there are not additional courses that you have not taken that are similar to the ones Goro suggested at your local state universities, look at UC Extension. You will need 30 credits in courses like genetics, cell biology, epidemiology, pharmacology, hematology etc. UC Extension has an analytical chemistry and clinical chemistry class as well.