Advice needed for a 3rd year D.O. student...

[misparas]

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I apologize in advance for starting this thread... I'm sure everyone hates the "what should I do" \ "what are my chances" threads. Feel free to stop reading now.

Here is my story... I'm a D.O. student who is just finishing up his 2nd week of an anesthesia elective. I love it! It really fits. I really enjoy the material and feel that I could be very good at the job. I really think that this is what I want to do.

The problem is that I am, on paper, a very average student... maybe even below average. I really didn't work that hard during my first 2 years of school. I ended up with an 80-something% average, which was good for the bottom 25% of my class. I don't have many extra-curricular activities on my application.

Anatomy bit me in the pants during my first several months of med school. I had to retest, and did very well when I actually took the time to learn the material. That went down as a 70% on my transcript.

I took COMLEX step 1 and not the USMLE... I scored a 502. 2 points above average.

Having said that... I'm doing very well in the clinical years. Sadly these years will not factor into class rank at all.

I am planning on really getting down to business and taking USMLE step 2. I'm confident that I can do well.

I want to set up away rotations in which I can really bust my hump and prove my worth to someone.

What programs are there out there which will overlook my stats and give me a shot at this thing? Are there any?

I have no geographic preferences. I have a wife and child... so a family friendly place would be a plus. Other than that... we are willing to move anywhere for 4 years.

Thanks in advance for any help. Feel free to be brutally honest. I just need to know where I stand and what would be my best approach from here on out.

 

[RxBoy]

After a very looong interview process I can offer you some advice.

1) I would def. take the USMLE exams, and try to do your best. Now most bigger programs (cadidate wise) I interviewed at were based on a point system. The first thing was always step 1 score, the second was overall class performance. Some places had #honors, some had #research ect., some either pass step 2 or score for step 2. (I know this because I would occasional glance at what they were filling out). You will probably be on the lower end for the objectiveness unless you smoke the boards. THen there is the "subjective" portion aka appearance, communication, commit toward field, ability to work with others ect. This area you can accel during your interview.

2) Get outstanding LORs. Don't be bashful, ask faculty if they can write you a "strong" letter. If they can't, don't bother. Most will though. Try to get one from the Department Head and/or one from the PD. It will really help your app. There were so many times during the interview, the PD would ask me "How is Dr. X doing, I met him multiple times at the ASA confrences, I really like that guy"... huge bonus points. The other LORs, your choice.

3) Its not too late. Withen 2 months (July/August) I was able to start a anesthesia research project, take an anesthesia elective and got 3 very strong LORs, Join ASA Medical student chapter, and honor my anesthesia elective (you can put that in the awards section for your ERAS). Plus any clinical classes you honor whether they count for class rank or not, you can also put in the awards section.

4) Apply broadly, primarily DO/IMG friendly places. Just ask around, you'll find them. Skip the really big name programs (waste of money if you ask me unless you get Step 1>220), and try to land as many interviews as humanly possible. You can never have too many invites. If you have more than 15, then you can be choosey which ones you want to go to instead of the other way around. The bigger the residency size, the better your chances. I believe 5 interviews with 10+ residents/year is a better chance than 10 interviews with 3 residents/year. But its not always the case, some smaller programs might get to know you better and that could help.

5) Ask a DO anesthesia resident personally. I'm from the US MD camp so I giving advice on what I observed, plus I am still waiting for match results myself.

6) Above all else be CONFIDENT. Don't walk in the room like you are ashamed, walk in like you have "matured" since your subpar performance days. Make sure to bring that home on each interviewer that asks you about your basic science years.

 

[treasurefull2]

To add to the above... do an audition rotation at the program you are interested in going to.

I just received the "Program Director Survery" and doing a visiting rotation was a big factor in picking candidates.

This would be especially important in your case with, as you stated, a weaker performance in other areas.

 

[Buckeye Anes]

After a very looong interview process I can offer you some advice.

1) I would def. take the USMLE exams, and try to do your best. Now most bigger programs (cadidate wise) I interviewed at were based on a point system. The first thing was always step 1 score, the second was overall class performance. Some places had #honors, some had #research ect., some either pass step 2 or score for step 2. (I know this because I would occasional glance at what they were filling out). You will probably be on the lower end for the objectiveness unless you smoke the boards. THen there is the "subjective" portion aka appearance, communication, commit toward field, ability to work with others ect. This area you can accel during your interview.

2) Get outstanding LORs. Don't be bashful, ask faculty if they can write you a "strong" letter. If they can't, don't bother. Most will though. Try to get one from the Department Head and/or one from the PD. It will really help your app. There were so many times during the interview, the PD would ask me "How is Dr. X doing, I met him multiple times at the ASA confrences, I really like that guy"... huge bonus points. The other LORs, your choice.

3) Its not too late. Withen 2 months (July/August) I was able to start a anesthesia research project, take an anesthesia elective and got 3 very strong LORs, Join ASA Medical student chapter, and honor my anesthesia elective (you can put that in the awards section for your ERAS). Plus any clinical classes you honor whether they count for class rank or not, you can also put in the awards section.

4) Apply broadly, primarily DO/IMG friendly places. Just ask around, you'll find them. Skip the really big name programs (waste of money if you ask me unless you get Step 1>220), and try to land as many interviews as humanly possible. You can never have too many invites. If you have more than 15, then you can be choosey which ones you want to go to instead of the other way around. The bigger the residency size, the better your chances. I believe 5 interviews with 10+ residents/year is a better chance than 10 interviews with 3 residents/year. But its not always the case, some smaller programs might get to know you better and that could help.

5) Ask a DO anesthesia resident personally. I'm from the US MD camp so I giving advice on what I observed, plus I am still waiting for match results myself.

6) Above all else be CONFIDENT. Don't walk in the room like you are ashamed, walk in like you have "matured" since your subpar performance days. Make sure to bring that home on each interviewer that asks you about your basic science years.

I agree. Programs definitely vary on how DO friendly they are so stack your odds by finding out which places these are apply as such. Also one of the big things looked for during the selection process is dedication to the field. i.e. does this person know what they are getting into (1 rotation in anesthesia vs 3 rotations), did they do research in the field (especially helpful for academically weaker applicants), did they make the extra effort (contact the programs directly that you are really interested in). Also even though you are off to a slower start there is time to turn things around by honoring your rotations (not just anesthesia as they wonder about the work ethic of someone who honors anesthesia and nothing else) and really get prepared for step 2 as a good step 2 score can make up for a lot academically.

 

[fakin' the funk]

honor my anesthesia elective (you can put that in the awards section for your ERAS). Plus any clinical classes you honor whether they count for class rank or not, you can also put in the awards section.

6) Above all else be CONFIDENT. Don't walk in the room like you are ashamed, walk in like you have "matured" since your subpar performance days. Make sure to bring that home on each interviewer that asks you about your basic science years.

Overall a great post from RxBoy. I personally think putting honors in clinical coursework as "awards" in ERAS is 100% the wrong thing to do since it's not an award - it's a grade for a clinical clerkship you're required to do X amount of. When I was prepping ERAS I went a lot on what aProgDirector (an IM PD) posted in the ERAS/NRMP forum on what to put where and he/she was emphatic that those don't count.

But, I 100% agree with the part about confidence, especially for DO's. At interview days you can tell who has confidence and who doesn't - the ones without are easily rattled by "tough" questions during the interviews and come into the bullpen and complain to the other applicants. For DO's, you are more likely to be grilled or interrogated and treated like an "outsider," and if you crack or show a lack of confidence due to your status as a DO then they smell blood and you're done.

 

[climbingdocs]

I agree with above about audition rotation.
Another thing, during interviews don't ask "why don't you have DOs in your program?" They get deffensive. If I could do it again I wouldn't have asked it. I interviewed at 3 programs that don't have DOs.
If you think you can take USMLE 1 do it. Most programs want USMLE 1.

 

[Chrysanthemum]

As a DO applicant I haven't found that I've been treated much like an outsider but I will not shy away from asking whether being a DO will affect how I will be ranked. PD's have told me that if I got the interview I stand the same chance as everyone else... most were sincere but I think one of them was bsing me.

Misparas, your comlex score is flat out average. Some people get away with applying with just comlex scores but in your case I'd say you have to take one of the usmle's and rock it. It's somewhat unfortunate but board scores are what will get u the interview. They literally weed out applications from the pile that don't meet their minimum board score requirements. By the way I only took Step 2 and I got interviews at almost every DO friendly program that I applied to.

You have to realize that being a DO makes you subpar in a lot of MD PD's eyes.... so you have to take their board exams and do better than the rest of the MD candidates that they will be comparing you with.

As far as applying to the super competitive programs if you do really well on your boards you stand a chance at getting an interview. There are some programs that are completely anti-DO... not too many but ask around.

If I were in in your position judging from my past performances I would assume that my step 2 scores would probably follow the same trend... (unless you are rocking all of ur shelf exams)... therefore, I'd play it pretty safe and do my rotations at low tier programs and impress the crap out of them.

Solid advice from RxBoy.

 

[amyl]

i know someone who matched at a good program with a step one AND two like yours....but he did two aways there, one in the anes run unit and one in the ors. of course it would be great to take usmle one if you can and improvement on step two will really help. the good news: comlex step two is EASY, so study hard and put up a good score. do as many aways as you can. my DO school had limitations (only two rotations in anesthesia) but you can also do an icu month, or peds anesthesia, etc. best of luck

 

[DO4lifer]

okay, so i worked my tail off during school (top of the class + honors), killed the USMLE (250+), and did plenty of research and extracurricular activities. i applied to top tier programs and found that:

1) most california programs are anti-DO. doing an away rotation is your best shot and getting an interview.

2) there are a lot of applicants to these programs, so a phone call goes a long way.

3) apply widely and broadly...in your case to mid-low tier programs to be safe.

4) good luck, its hardcore competitive, but there is still more spots than US applicants.

 

[treasurefull2]

I would definitely call programs about 2 weeks after submitting your application.

Programs get about 1500 applications and even if have an excellent resume you might fall through the cracks. Call a program early on brings you to their attention and will give you a good chance at getting an interview.

One prelim program I applied to didn't even look at my application untill I made a phone call and I got an interview shortly there after.

Trust me, calling a program is not the type of thing where you're bothering them or steppnig out of line. It's a good thing, and I think most programs wont mind.

I would just say someting like "I just wanted to express my strong interest in your program and I would love to interview with you."

 

[psycho-matic]

If you're willing to move to Arkansas, the anesthesiology program at UAMS in Little Rock is very DO friendly. If you look on their webpage, about half of their residents are DO's. Solid program with a lot of different cases and lots of peds too. Living expenses are low and it's a nice city.

 

[zackmorris fan]

umdnj camden is also do friendly but they only have 4 spots. I would say if you rotate there and show interest, you'd have a great chance.

 

[nightflight747]

Agree w/ Fakin. Honors are not awards, haven't even heard of anything like that. I wouldn't do anything like that, especially if your application isn't the best-- would just come across as desperate.
Otherwise agree w/ RxBoy's advice. Met a few DOs on the trail, but only at schools that had already shown to be DO friendly (resident roster online).

 

[BColorado]

To the original poster and especially for DO4lifer, go AZCOM right? I am a DO, the only one one in my program, which is notoriously difficult to get in to. The real issue is being a solid candidate on paper and an outstanding candidate in person. Yes study hard and take the USMLE 1, and rock it. It is not that different than the COMLEX, pick up a biostats book and your golden. Now I am not saying that you cant get into a subpar allopathic residency without doing the USMLE, but do you reallly want to?

I just had a visiting resident working with me for the last month from Brigham and Womens Hospital in Boston. I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she was smart. But damn, either the experience was not there or she just did not know how to resucitate. I was way dissapointed. When getting interviews, really delve into what experiences residents get, and the autonomy that they are allowed. after all, after three years you will be on your own.

Feel free to PM me if you want to know what my scores where or my class rank

 

[misparas]

Thanks for all of the great feedback! This has been helpful.

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