Advice needed/rant

[AA|FCB|DOC]

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Hi everyone,

So I applied this previous cycle, but unfortunately I seem to be at the same spot I was a year ago. Although I have a 4.0 and 30+ mcat score, I received no interview invites. It leaves me really frustrated, because when I call the admissions committees to get some feedback on what they thought was weak on my application, I am denied access to this information. I want to reapply, but not knowing what is wrong with my application is making it so hard, and also leaves me in a state where I just feel stuck on what to do. I know my extracurriculars were not as strong as they could be and that's definitely something I am going to be working on now. However, the applications start in June and I won't be able to write much on my personal statement about the experiences that I start in the next week or two. I'm just trying to rant and look for some advice here. Thanks for any help in advance.

 

[mrh125]

What schools did you apply to and how did you choose them? Did you follow LizzyM data and msar data? (not applying to OOS schools if they have low acceptance rates) Did you apply broadly, how many schools did you apply to?

If you only applied to a few very selective schools, it's very difficult succeed even for the best applicants.

 

[Maeby Funke]

You may not be able to get feedback from adcoms but there's plenty of people you could get critical feedback from - advisors, professors, friends, SDN-users.

It could be many things: Lack of clinical experience, underwhelming ECs, poorly written essays, applying late, not applying broadly enough to schools in your stat-range, etc. What have you been doing throughout the application cycle to improve your application?

 

[Mr Interesting]

You are a Florida resident with a 4.0 and a 30 and didn't get any love from any of the Florida schools? What were your EC's like? Do you a have a criminal record or any IA's? Did you have anyone read over your personal statement?

 

[deleted480308]

Post your school list

 

[frosted_flake]

LORs?

 

[bearded frog]

​

 

[optimistic3]

Tells us what your ECs were.

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

What schools did you apply to and how did you choose them? Did you follow LizzyM data and msar data? (not applying to OOS schools if they have low acceptance rates) Did you apply broadly, how many schools did you apply to?

If you only applied to a few very selective schools, it's very difficult succeed even for the best applicants.

I definitely applied to less schools than people do on average and they consisted higher tier, medium, and lower tier schools. There were 16 schools total.

George Washington
Georgetown
NYU
New York Medical
Columbia
UCR
UCSD
UCLA
UCI
UCD
UCSF
Stanford
Harvard
Arizona
Elanor Roosevelt (Chicago)
USC

Although the list consists of some really excellent schools, I felt like in terms of numbers I was competitive for them. I had a 4.0 and balanced 38. Therefore, I think I can rule out numbers as the source of the problem. Essays, Extracurriculars, and letters can still be of issue.

You may not be able to get feedback from adcoms but there's plenty of people you could get critical feedback from - advisors, professors, friends, SDN-users.

It could be many things: Lack of clinical experience, underwhelming ECs, poorly written essays, applying late, not applying broadly enough to schools in your stat-range, etc. What have you been doing throughout the application cycle to improve your application?

I have actually been finishing my undergraduate studies and just volunteering here and there. Going to start the bulk of my new research and volunteer activities in the next week or so and sustain them through next summer. But this is where my dilemma is. I hope that I can still improve my application this time around even though I'm starting most of these extracurriculars now. I just was not expecting to not get a single interview up to this point. I know the personal statement has to be written very soon, but I might have more time to talk about these experiences by the time secondaries and interviews come around. I also talked to an advisor, and she said she can't see a glaring issue. Said my personal statement was not exceptional, but was not bad or alarming in any way. She did note that my application was verified by the end of september and this could have hurt me.

You are a Florida resident with a 4.0 and a 30 and didn't get any love from any of the Florida schools? What were your EC's like? Do you a have a criminal record or any IA's? Did you have anyone read over your personal statement?

Sorry my signature is old and must have confused you. That was in reference to a sports team. I don't live in Miami. I am a California resident. Which kind of sucks, because I do not think any of the schools give me preference even though I would ultimately love to go to school in California.

LORs?

The letter of rec's could be an issue considering I did not see them due to confidentiality. This is where I was hoping the adcoms could help me out with some advice..

 

[hoihaie]

so what are your EC's in total then?

 

[Mr Interesting]

Sorry my signature is old and must have confused you. That was in reference to a sports team. I don't live in Miami. I am a California resident. Which kind of sucks, because I do not think any of the schools give me preference even though I would ultimately love to go to school in California.

Ah, I see now. You did not answer the questions about having institutional actions or a criminal record though. If you have neither, it's most likely your EC's, essays, and perhaps your LOR's. Your numbers sound great but I'd still probably apply to about 20 schools given how unpredictable things can be sometimes.

 

[VictorAlpha]

i would guess it is probably a lack of clinical EC's but that is just a guess as i don't really know what you have and haven't done.
The other thing i noticed was that you have some very very great schools on the list (you certainly have the numbers for them too). But, having said that, you didn't get any interview invites, I would open up your list and add like 6 more schools and spread them out. I know a decent number of students from the west coast who came to my school in the midwest...it kind of comes down to how much you want to go vs. how much you want to go to "x" school. Only you will know that though

 

[candbgirl]

Where/what is Eleanor Roosevelt? I have never heard of a Chicago Med school with that name.

 

[whatever5]

George Washington
Georgetown
NYU
New York Medical
Columbia
UCR
UCSD
UCLA
UCI
UCD
UCSF
Stanford
Harvard
Arizona
Elanor Roosevelt (Chicago)
USC

Well here's your problem! UCR, UCSD, UCLA, UCI, UCD, UCSF and USC are all incredibly selective for California applicants. There are so many california applicants with awesome stats applying to those schools, that without amazing ECS and letters, you don't stand out. Same when it comes to Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, and to a lesser extent NYU. They also heavily favor research, so if you don't have that it could be a big problem. Elanor Roosevelt is not a medical school. There is a school called Roosevelt in Chicago but they do like interpretive dance and musical theater and that sort of thing. I'll assume you meant Rosalind Franklin. Arizona is a state school so they probably favor in state as well.

Basically, your list is way too top heavy and you got cocky. You realistically applied to GW, Georgetown, Rosalind Franklin and NYMC. With only 4 realistic schools on your list, I'm not shocked that you didn't get in.

 

[ponyo]

I don't think OP's biggest problem is not applying to enough schools. With his numbers, if everything else was average he should at least be getting interviews at some of the schools, since that process definitely isn't that selective for some of those schools. It seems like OP has some sort of red flag and might benefit from having someone informed look through his application (like at least a medical student). If there's nothing there, I would be worried about the strength of the LoRs.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Do you have any past legal or institutional action problems?

 

[rumlodlk]

Your situation is extremely similar to mine. I was unaware of how the process worked and applied to only five schools with a 3.9+ GPA and a 39 to 42 MCAT. I've now found that I applied quite late (I submitted my primary application in the middle of October). When did you apply?

 

[terp720]

Well here's your problem! UCR, UCSD, UCLA, UCI, UCD, UCSF and USC are all incredibly selective for California applicants. There are so many california applicants with awesome stats applying to those schools, that without amazing ECS and letters, you don't stand out. Same when it comes to Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, and to a lesser extent NYU. They also heavily favor research, so if you don't have that it could be a big problem. Elanor Roosevelt is not a medical school. There is a school called Roosevelt in Chicago but they do like interpretive dance and musical theater and that sort of thing. I'll assume you meant Rosalind Franklin. Arizona is a state school so they probably favor in state as well.

Basically, your list is way too top heavy and you got cocky. You realistically applied to GW, Georgetown, Rosalind Franklin and NYMC. With only 4 realistic schools on your list, I'm not shocked that you didn't get in.

given the number of applications these schools get, idk if even these are "realistic". I don't think high stats will save an applicant when there are this many applicants if he is lacking in other areas or doesn't show actual interest.

 

[moisne]

Harvard Med... And you admit to not having strong EC. I think you know what to do.

 

[Ismet]

Where/what is Eleanor Roosevelt? I have never heard of a Chicago Med school with that name.

Pretty sure she means Rosalind Franklin...

 

[OrgasmicChemistry]

Best advice I ever got was to just bite the bullet and apply to 30 schools. Also, you may not know it, but essentially every school you applied to was a reach without strong ECs/ties to the school.

 

[candbgirl]

Pretty sure she means Rosalind Franklin...

Maybe that's why she wasn't accepted there.

 

[solitarius]

Top-heavy with a few backup safeties is a losing strategy for anyone.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

George Washington - Crap shoot (too many apps)
Georgetown - Crap shoot (too many apps)
NYU - Crap shoot
New York Medical
Columbia - crap shoot
UCR - are you in line with their very narrow target population?
UCSD - crap shoot
UCLA - crap shoot
UCI
UCD
UCSF - crap shoot
Stanford - crap shoot
Harvard - crap shoot
Arizona - Anecdotal evidence suggests they are not friendly to high-stat OOS
Elanor Roosevelt (Chicago)
USC

You only have a few "safe" schools on your list (bold). I think that's why you're reapplying despite your stats

 

[amvet70]

Long term, post med school, you’ll probably enter a residency program. According to the most recent survey of residency program directors, graduating from any US med school is a more important factor than graduating from a highly regarded US med school in selecting which applicants to interview and in ranking applicants for their residency programs. The point is all US med schools are good. You just need one acceptance. Consider broadening your search to arguably “middle and lower” tier schools.
http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/

 

[Goro]

100% agree. A 30 MCAT is below avg, and a killer at OOS state schools, especially the uber-competitive UC system.

OP's best bet is with low tier MD schools, all new MD school and DO schools.

Well here's your problem! UCR, UCSD, UCLA, UCI, UCD, UCSF and USC are all incredibly selective for California applicants. There are so many california applicants with awesome stats applying to those schools, that without amazing ECS and letters, you don't stand out. Same when it comes to Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, and to a lesser extent NYU. They also heavily favor research, so if you don't have that it could be a big problem. Elanor Roosevelt is not a medical school. There is a school called Roosevelt in Chicago but they do like interpretive dance and musical theater and that sort of thing. I'll assume you meant Rosalind Franklin. Arizona is a state school so they probably favor in state as well.

Basically, your list is way too top heavy and you got cocky. You realistically applied to GW, Georgetown, Rosalind Franklin and NYMC. With only 4 realistic schools on your list, I'm not shocked that you didn't get in.

 

[terp720]

100% agree. A 30 MCAT is below avg, and a killer at OOS state schools, especially the uber-competitive UC system.

OP's best bet is with low tier MD schools, all new MD school and DO schools.

OP had a balanced 38, not a 30
with a 4.0.

stats were probably not the problem?

 

[samurkai]

100% agree. A 30 MCAT is below avg, and a killer at OOS state schools, especially the uber-competitive UC system.

OP's best bet is with low tier MD schools, all new MD school and DO schools.

I think OP said in a later post that s/he actually has a 38. (original post only said 30+)

"I had a 4.0 and balanced 38." at the bottom of the post in which they listed the schools they applied to.

 

[deleted577188]

Troll. Damn nobody caught this??!!

 

[terp720]

Troll. Damn nobody caught this??!!

if OP is a troll... that is some committed trolling considering OP has posts in all of the school-specific threads over this past application cycle.

 

[Goro]

Concur

Ah, I see now. You did not answer the questions about having institutional actions or a criminal record though. If you have neither, it's most likely your EC's, essays, and perhaps your LOR's. Your numbers sound great but I'd still probably apply to about 20 schools given how unpredictable things can be sometimes.

 

[LizzyM]

Do you have research listed among your experiences?
Do you have exposure to patients in a health care setting among your experiences? (shadowing, employment, or volunteer work where you are in close proximity to patients)
Do you have evidence of service to your local community (altruism) among your experiences?

If you answered no to any of the above, you might as well skip a year, improve your experiences and reapply in 2015. I'm serious. If you didn't have these things on the application last year and you still don't have them, you are throwing good money after bad to reapply in 2014.

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

Ah, I see now. You did not answer the questions about having institutional actions or a criminal record though. If you have neither, it's most likely your EC's, essays, and perhaps your LOR's. Your numbers sound great but I'd still probably apply to about 20 schools given how unpredictable things can be sometimes.

Sorry forgot that part, no I do not have any criminal history or anything like that.

Where/what is Eleanor Roosevelt? I have never heard of a Chicago Med school with that name.

LOL sorry my head was jumbled up, I was reading something else previously and mixed up the names. I meant Rosalind Franklin.

Your situation is extremely similar to mine. I was unaware of how the process worked and applied to only five schools with a 3.9+ GPA and a 39 to 42 MCAT. I've now found that I applied quite late (I submitted my primary application in the middle of October). When did you apply?

I applied in end of July but realized my application was not even processed until end of September

Troll. Damn nobody caught this??!!

Don't jump the gun, I'm not trolling. I just don't check the forums as often as you might.

Do you have research listed among your experiences?
Do you have exposure to patients in a health care setting among your experiences? (shadowing, employment, or volunteer work where you are in close proximity to patients)
Do you have evidence of service to your local community (altruism) among your experiences?

If you answered no to any of the above, you might as well skip a year, improve your experiences and reapply in 2015. I'm serious. If you didn't have these things on the application last year and you still don't have them, you are throwing good money after bad to reapply in 2014.

I actually do have research, shadowing, and volunteering at the hospital. What I am missing is non clinical volunteering, but I have recently started two different programs and I am starting a new research project in a week. Do you really think I should still not apply in June? I am going to be continuing these extracurriculars for the next year while I'm waiting. I'm worried about taking a year without applying because I don't want my mcat score to expire either. I know some schools only accept 2-3 year old scores and it has already been a year since I took my mcat.

 

[LostinLift]

I actually do have research, shadowing, and volunteering at the hospital. What I am missing is non clinical volunteering, but I have recently started two different programs and I am starting a new research project in a week. Do you really think I should still not apply in June? I am going to be continuing these extracurriculars for the next year while I'm waiting. I'm worried about taking a year without applying because I don't want my mcat score to expire either. I know some schools only accept 2-3 year old scores and it has already been a year since I took my mcat.

That's a bit too vague of answer. How many hours of volunteering do you have? What about research? Any posters/pubs/abstracts? Any leadership experience? Sports/music? Experience working in the service industry (medicine is a service industry)?

What exactly will you put on your application this year that will be different than last? Have your grades stayed consistent? Being very young also wouldn't help you.

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

That's a bit too vague of answer. How many hours of volunteering do you have? What about research? Any posters/pubs/abstracts? Any leadership experience? Sports/music? Experience working in the service industry (medicine is a service industry)?

What exactly will you put on your application this year that will be different than last? Have your grades stayed consistent? Being very young also wouldn't help you.

I have volunteered about 200 hours up to now at the hospital. Almost a 100 in shadowing. I do not have a research publication. And in terms of employment I have been working in the fitness industry full time for the past six years. Kind or some of the reasoning as to why I couldn't keep up my grades, work that much, and do volunteering all at the same time. In terms of what's going to be different on my application, there will be two to three new volunteer opportunities, and a new research opportunity. I know that by the time June comes around I would have not had that much time in these experiences, but I know by the time secondaries and any possible interviews come around I would have gained more experience. Do you really think it's not worth reapplying under these circumstances.

P.s I would be applying immediately when the apps come out this time rather than end of July.

 

[V5RED]

edit: covered by the time I posted

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

edit: covered by the time I posted

Yea I had some trouble with the letter of recs, and got some better ones throughout this year, but unfortunately it was too late to send them in for this cycle. I am also looking to add some letter of recs from my employer too considering I didn't do this last time. In terms of volunteering and research I had close to a year for each.

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

Obviously I know some people on the forums will have extracurricular hours that dwarf mine. But I also don't feel like everyone had to work full time to pay expenses, and keep up as high numbers. So I feel like where my application might have lacked on the ec's, I am stronger elsewhere. But apparently the adcoms don't really give much weight to the fact that I had to balance all this while taking care of expenses too. In either case, I'm working on improving my extracurriculars, but the question is whether it's worth reapplying in this time frame.

 

[lmn]

I think it is a bad presumption to assume Adcoms don't care that you worked your way through school, I have only heard the complete opposite. Your EC's obviously aren't stellar, but I don't think they are stopping you from getting interviews if you are accurately describing you and your situation in your PS. I think as others have highlighted previously, your school list is really fickle, UC's/CA schools are so overloaded with applications that it is hard to predict/rely on them, many of your other choices are top schools or ones with the most applications every year. Sure it is possible that you could reapply to the same exact set of schools this round and get interviews depending on your luck, but I think it would be a lot smarter to broaden your school list to include more schools. You also should probably look to apply at more mid/mid-upper tier schools rather than top schools, many of those top schools really look for significant research work, which you don't currently have, and unless you got really lucky with the project you just joined, most likely won't be enough this cycle.

 

[LizzyM]

Basically, your list is way too top heavy and you got cocky. You realistically applied to GW, Georgetown, Rosalind Franklin and NYMC. With only 4 realistic schools on your list, I'm not shocked that you didn't get in.

Add to that -- with exceptional GPA and MCAT, those schools may have thought you were treating them as a safety while the research powerhouses that look for those excellent numbers are also expecting research experience.

Also, if you earned that 4.0 GPA by taking classes part-time, you won't be considered as a strong a candidate as someone who took a full-time load. Sure, you were working but schools have their choice of applicants and want students who have proven that they can handle a full-time academic load plus other activities.

The AMCAS application is what is really seen... anything that happens after that is invisible unless the adcom makes an intense effort to find out and most of the time they are too busy with applicants who "have it all" in the AMCAS application to go digging for more information from someone whose AMCAS application is light in a couple of areas.

 

[OrgasmicChemistry]

If you are describing yourself accurately and doing the ECs you're claiming in the off-season, applying more broadly will ensure you get in. Just think about it like this: Even at target schools, you probably need 7 applications to get one acceptance. I'm not joking, 30+ schools and a better blend; you'll be golden.

I'd also contact every single school and ask why I didn't get interviewed/accepted. You might get some feedback...

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

If you are describing yourself accurately and doing the ECs you're claiming in the off-season, applying more broadly will ensure you get in. Just think about it like this: Even at target schools, you probably need 7 applications to get one acceptance. I'm not joking, 30+ schools and a better blend; you'll be golden.

I'd also contact every single school and ask why I didn't get interviewed/accepted. You might get some feedback...

Yea I agree with you on that one. I have contacted most schools and they have been reluctant, but I will give it another chance to see if I can gain some further insight. In addition, I have seen the MSAR plenty of times, but is there another decent source that lists the "tiers" of schools? Thanks

 

[lmn]

Yea I agree with you on that one. I have contacted most schools and they have been reluctant, but I will give it another chance to see if I can gain some further insight. In addition, I have seen the MSAR plenty of times, but is there another decent source that lists the "tiers" of schools? Thanks

"Tiers" is very arbitrary, most consider something like top 20 (USNWR/Residency Director Score), and mid/low below that depends on the person's definition. Just use the MSAR/LizzyM score to find schools with your score and slightly below that are IS or friendly to OOS, with missions that fit you, etc.

 

[Plecopotamus]

Hi everyone,

So I applied this previous cycle, but unfortunately I seem to be at the same spot I was a year ago. Although I have a 4.0 and 30+ mcat score, I received no interview invites. It leaves me really frustrated, because when I call the admissions committees to get some feedback on what they thought was weak on my application, I am denied access to this information. I want to reapply, but not knowing what is wrong with my application is making it so hard, and also leaves me in a state where I just feel stuck on what to do. I know my extracurriculars were not as strong as they could be and that's definitely something I am going to be working on now. However, the applications start in June and I won't be able to write much on my personal statement about the experiences that I start in the next week or two. I'm just trying to rant and look for some advice here. Thanks for any help in advance.

You need to have someone read your PS -- you can PM it to me if you would like and I will offer you my opinion (I'm a graduating med student).
If there is not something obviously wrong with your PS and you believe this is an EC issue, I do not recommend reapplying this year. I recommend reapplying next cycle. You cannot make significant change to your application by June if you haven't done it already. Regardless of whether it's new LORs or ECs, a year of preparation will find your application money better spent than doing one right now -- the answer to "what have you done to improve your application since the last cycle?" can rarely be answered by activities you scrambled to complete once you realized you weren't getting in this cycle.

With regards to "tiers", keep in mind that the schools you presumably felt were lower tier "safety" schools for you get so many applications that they actually aren't a safety for anybody. Indeed, I suspect that they are unlikely to interview high MCAT/GPA applicants, because it would be a poor use of resources when most such candidates would turn them down if they got an offer from a higher tier school.

How big of a difference do you think your new LORs will make? Nobody here can guess that.

Did you go to school full time at any point or were your courses completed as a part time student?

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

You need to have someone read your PS -- you can PM it to me if you would like and I will offer you my opinion (I'm a graduating med student).
If there is not something obviously wrong with your PS and you believe this is an EC issue, I do not recommend reapplying this year. I recommend reapplying next cycle. You cannot make significant change to your application by June if you haven't done it already. Regardless of whether it's new LORs or ECs, a year of preparation will find your application money better spent than doing one right now -- the answer to "what have you done to improve your application since the last cycle?" can rarely be answered by activities you scrambled to complete once you realized you weren't getting in this cycle.

With regards to "tiers", keep in mind that the schools you presumably felt were lower tier "safety" schools for you get so many applications that they actually aren't a safety for anybody. Indeed, I suspect that they are unlikely to interview high MCAT/GPA applicants, because it would be a poor use of resources when most such candidates would turn them down if they got an offer from a higher tier school.

How big of a difference do you think your new LORs will make? Nobody here can guess that.

Did you go to school full time at any point or were your courses completed as a part time student?

Thanks for your help. I'll message you about the ps. I was at school full time except for one quarter. And my issue with waiting is actually with my mcat score expiring.

 

[zhopv10]

Honestly I would just reapply this year but apply to a broad range of schools and get your AMCAS in the first day you can. If you're not deadset on getting into a top tier (like some of the ones on your list) I think you could get in with those stats easily enough (assuming good PS, essays, and interview) you should be golden. It is odd how it works out sometimes, two schools that I didn't think I had a great shot at are the ones that accepted me whereas the WL's I have are from schools that I thought I had a really good shot at so you never know.

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

Honestly I would just reapply this year but apply to a broad range of schools and get your AMCAS in the first day you can. If you're not deadset on getting into a top tier (like some of the ones on your list) I think you could get in with those stats easily enough (assuming good PS, essays, and interview) you should be golden. It is odd how it works out sometimes, two schools that I didn't think I had a great shot at are the ones that accepted me whereas the WL's I have are from schools that I thought I had a really good shot at so you never know.

Thanks for the encouraging words. Sometimes that can be of the most help. My advisor was actually saying what you did as well. She said as much as she hates to say it, a lot of this process can also be random sometimes. So with 16 schools I could have also had some bad luck too. She said that she read some research that was just recently done, and they said that if you get interviewed after someone has lunch versus before, your chances of getting accepted are significantly higher. Just puts it into perspective for you that even a 4.0 and 30+ MCAT score isn't a guarantee anywhere. Either way, my best course of action now is to continue my EC's and get working on my new application.

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

Thanks for the encouraging words. Sometimes that can be of the most help. My advisor was actually saying what you did as well. She said as much as she hates to say it, a lot of this process can also be random sometimes. So with 16 schools I could have also had some bad luck too. She said that she read some research that was just recently done, and they said that if you get interviewed after someone has lunch versus before, your chances of getting accepted are significantly higher. Just puts it into perspective for you that even a 4.0 and 30+ MCAT score isn't a guarantee anywhere. Either way, my best course of action now is to continue my EC's and get working on my new application.

A random question I thought I would ask while I'm here, is the primary amcas ready and verified to be viewed by schools even without sending the letters? I believe we can send letters with secondaries too right?

 

[Goro]

Definitely apply to all schools in FL if you're a FL resident!

 

[AA|FCB|DOC]

Definitely apply to all schools in FL if you're a FL resident!

I am a CA resident but unfortunately I don't remember any out of state friendly Florida schools for me to apply to. And California schools themselves have no in state preference from what I remember.