Advice needed with a personal issue

[pharm1alp]

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hello,

I would like some advices from the sdn community regarding a personal matter that is related to pharmacy. I was insulted personally by a resident (perhaps acting on his/her own behalf, but claimed it was on the behalf of someone else) who stated that I dressed poorly and had poor hygiene practices while I was on my advanced rotation. I disagree with the resident's claims because I dressed accordingly to what my preceptor instructed me, "semi-casual," but did not go over the top w/ all formal wear (and definitely did not come in w/ jeans and a tee). I sweat, especially if it was towards the end of a hardworking hot day (who doesn't?), but I do shower everyday. I am especially offended at the resident's spoken examples of proper hygiene practices and outfits. If this was a paying situation, I would happily do whatever is asked, no matter how small the criticism was. However, this is a rotation, in which I am paying money to my school in the form of tuition (and does anyone know if the school pays these sites for allowing students to rotate there?). I expect that at such a high price tag, there would be some respect given for "shadowing/training/rotating/whateveruwannacallit."

Now, I have no issues w/ my other preceptors who has not mentioned of such issues. I would also certainly comply if this was the case. I feel very insulted that a resident would personally attack me verbally based on his/her own standards, and I don't see any reasons why the preceptors/director would not tell me this on their own. I am thinking of writing an e-mail to complain of this to the director, but obviously there might be some repercussions w/ grades, future job opportunities, lasting bad impressions, etc. What do you guys advise? Thanks.

 

[awval999]

hello,

I would like some advices from the sdn community regarding a personal matter that is related to pharmacy. I was insulted personally by a resident (perhaps acting on his/her own behalf, but claimed it was on the behalf of someone else) who stated that I dressed poorly and had poor hygiene practices while I was on my advanced rotation. I disagree with the resident's claims because I dressed accordingly to what my preceptor instructed me, "semi-casual," but did not go over the top w/ all formal wear (and definitely did not come in w/ jeans and a tee). I sweat, especially if it was towards the end of a hardworking hot day (who doesn't?), but I do shower everyday. I am especially offended at the resident's spoken examples of proper hygiene practices and outfits. If this was a paying situation, I would happily do whatever is asked, no matter how small the criticism was. However, this is a rotation, in which I am paying money to my school in the form of tuition (and does anyone know if the school pays these sites for allowing students to rotate there?). I expect that at such a high price tag, there would be some respect given for "shadowing/training/rotating/whateveruwannacallit."

Now, I have no issues w/ my other preceptors who has not mentioned of such issues. I would also certainly comply if this was the case. I feel very insulted that a resident would personally attack me verbally based on his/her own standards, and I don't see any reasons why the preceptors/director would not tell me this on their own. I am thinking of writing an e-mail to complain of this to the director, but obviously there might be some repercussions w/ grades, future job opportunities, lasting bad impressions, etc. What do you guys advise? Thanks.

Stop and breathe for a moment. Don't do anything rash like fire off emails.

Obviously the resident could have spoken in a more tactfully way. And yes, if the attire/personal issues were a problem it should be the preceptor that should is bearer of news and not the resident.

Personally I would search my soul and see if their is some truth to the statement. Maybe look for a new deodorant/anti-persperant, maybe iron clothes before work, etc. Now please don't offense to these recommendations, I do not know you personally, I'm just saying it's very difficult for someone to come to you and say those things so I would at least consider the possibility he was doing you a favor.

Regardless, no emails. No crying to school, etc.

 

[confettiflyer]

He probably told you how it is...no sugar coat, you should probably thank him/her for being so frank with you.

I've had to have many a talk to students about inappropriate dress...and a preceptor telling you "semi-casual" is just asking for trouble since that can be interpreted in so many ways.

Just because you pay tuition doesn't entitle you to velvet glove treatment. Yes, ideally everyone should treat each other with respect, but it's not a perfect world.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

You aren't allowed to have an opinion when you are in school. Academia is a bizarre institution when you pay people to be subservient to them and torture you. It will be over and you can look back and roll your eyes over the entire 4 yeas worth of nonsense.

 

[mustang sally]

If you do decide complain to any one, I would wait until the rotation is over and your grade has been posted online to your transcript. Yes, it sucks to be offended but it's not worth getting set back however many weeks if something goes awry on your rotation.

Also if you wait awhile, you might decide it's not worth the effort spent anyway.

 

[samisab786]

hello,

I would like some advices from the sdn community regarding a personal matter that is related to pharmacy. I was insulted personally by a resident (perhaps acting on his/her own behalf, but claimed it was on the behalf of someone else) who stated that I dressed poorly and had poor hygiene practices while I was on my advanced rotation. I disagree with the resident's claims because I dressed accordingly to what my preceptor instructed me, "semi-casual," but did not go over the top w/ all formal wear (and definitely did not come in w/ jeans and a tee). I sweat, especially if it was towards the end of a hardworking hot day (who doesn't?), but I do shower everyday. I am especially offended at the resident's spoken examples of proper hygiene practices and outfits. If this was a paying situation, I would happily do whatever is asked, no matter how small the criticism was. However, this is a rotation, in which I am paying money to my school in the form of tuition (and does anyone know if the school pays these sites for allowing students to rotate there?). I expect that at such a high price tag, there would be some respect given for "shadowing/training/rotating/whateveruwannacallit."

Now, I have no issues w/ my other preceptors who has not mentioned of such issues. I would also certainly comply if this was the case. I feel very insulted that a resident would personally attack me verbally based on his/her own standards, and I don't see any reasons why the preceptors/director would not tell me this on their own. I am thinking of writing an e-mail to complain of this to the director, but obviously there might be some repercussions w/ grades, future job opportunities, lasting bad impressions, etc. What do you guys advise? Thanks.

I can agree that was not the nicest way to say that. If you are truly not dressed professionally, they should tell you how you should dress as a pointer. Also, are you sure hygiene has to do simply with the way you smell? It could be nails, etc (I've heard some job interviewers talk about how they consider long, dirty nails unsettling...) I guess my best bet would be to not complain: you can clarify with the resident as to what the heck they are talking about. Keep deodorant, a mini toothbrush and toothpaste with you and groom yourself well. And clarify. However, because it's a rotation, I would think you should feel more compelled to follow directions as it is not your employer and you carry more responsibility to maintain the best impression of that facility as somebody who doesn't really work there (ex: at my chain rotation, I do my best to be super careful b/c I don't want to mess up anything at a place I don't work for).

With that said, some people on IPPES/rotation can be straight up mean, they can pick on you in ways that are unfair. I guess this is an unfortunate reality of the working world. I know the feeling and I get exhausted, but you have to just do your best I guess. Don't take offense, just evaluate what you are doing, and if it is completely uncalled for, do your best to ignore it.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Do you wear deoderant? I've worked with folks who were from places where no one wears deoderant and everyone has BO. They had other hygiene habits that were inconsistent with what we are used to in this country as well. Needless to say, they needed some guidance about hygiene - that most people in the US wear deoderant, wear clean clothes every day, keep nails trimmed, etc.

 

[Stilltrying1288]

You aren't allowed to have an opinion when you are in school. Academia is a bizarre institution when you pay people to be subservient to them and torture you. It will be over and you can look back and roll your eyes over the entire 4 yeas worth of nonsense.

Pretty much this.

 

[deleted480308]

You are a student being evaluated, if it's not illegal or immoral just do what you are told and get your grade

 

[BidingMyTime]

I wouldn't say anything, the rotation will be over before you know it. Depending on how much longer you have left on your rotation, you possibly may want to talk to the preceptor (don't mention the resident's name) and ask your preceptor if they have any specifics they would like you to change concerning your dress/grooming.

 

[pharmd201389]

Don't listen to any of these people that tell you to suck it up. IF, you are 1000% sure that you are hygenic, and that you don't smell (and I mean 100% sure), that you wear deodorant, spray cologne, and at least look professional, I would have confronted that bitch ass resident.

It's a ****ing resident. They aren't your preceptor. Technically, in a way, they are also doing a type of rotation. They answer to their preceptor the same way you do to yours.

I had a resident during rotations at a hospital who started RANDOMLY cursing at me in front of everyone because I was drinking water in the computer lab. I only did so because everyone else was doing so also, and because I was thirsty as hell. The guy even had a Starbucks coffee by his computer. What gives him the right to say that to me when he's doing it himself?

Needless to say, I started yelling back at him, the preceptor found out, and he just laughed. He said don't worry about him. Don't be afraid about what may happen to you. Nobody can fail you based on an isolated incident. Even if it goes back to the school, you could say listen,"I've had x amount of rotations with x amount of preceptors and residents. Call them right now and see how much they loved me and if they had a problem."

Unless, of course, you want to be treated like a bitch. If so, then don't say anything and stay quiet.

If you don't stick up for yourself, no one will. I don't care if you're a student. Never, ever, ever let anyone treat you wrongly, unless its your parent or your boss. And this douchebag resident was neither.

 

[jadedpharmer]

Don't listen to any of these people that tell you to suck it up. IF, you are 1000% sure that you are hygenic, and that you don't smell (and I mean 100% sure), that you wear deodorant, spray cologne, and at least look professional, I would have confronted that bitch ass resident.

It's a ****ing resident. They aren't your preceptor. Technically, in a way, they are also doing a type of rotation. They answer to their preceptor the same way you do to yours.

I had a resident during rotations at a hospital who started RANDOMLY cursing at me in front of everyone because I was drinking water in the computer lab. I only did so because everyone else was doing so also, and because I was thirsty as hell. The guy even had a Starbucks coffee by his computer. What gives him the right to say that to me when he's doing it himself?

Needless to say, I started yelling back at him, the preceptor found out, and he just laughed. He said don't worry about him. Don't be afraid about what may happen to you. Nobody can fail you based on an isolated incident. Even if it goes back to the school, you could say listen,"I've had x amount of rotations with x amount of preceptors and residents. Call them right now and see how much they loved me and if they had a problem."

Unless, of course, you want to be treated like a bitch. If so, then don't say anything and stay quiet.

If you don't stick up for yourself, no one will. I don't care if you're a student. Never, ever, ever let anyone treat you wrongly, unless its your parent or your boss. And this douchebag resident was neither.

This.

But don't bother writing an email complaining. It's not worth the effort and time.

If the preceptor and other pharmacists working there have not made any complaints, then just keep doing what you're doing. You can tell the resident to go **** him/her-self if he/she continue to bitch at you.

 

[Sparda29]

Was it a pharmacy resident or a medical resident? This is important.

 

[KARM12]

I would ask the preceptor to clarify the dress code. Casual can mean different things. When in doubt, follow the dress code that your school suggests for rotations (usually is a shirt and tie). Also take cues from how the other pharmacists and students dress at the site.

Is there any true behind the "smell" issue? I've encountered some people with BO issues that seem to be unaware. Make sure you wear a good deodorant every day in addition to showering. Are your clothes clean? I've also enountered people who wear dirty shirts and you can tell. Do you have an honest friend or classmate that you can ask?

 

[Momus]

Most Immigrant Indians I encountered have bad BO issues. I don't know this until I go to their houses and it smells like them. I don't know what they use daily to make it smell so bad. Some kind of body oil or incense? They are cheap as hell also. Once, I try to rent out my house and the guy's family tried to haggle me down to $2500 from $2850, and will pay 6 months upfront. I just said "I'd consider it". Little that they know I'd never rent it to them because I have a better prospect with excellent credit history/landlord references who will pay full rent amount and have better BO -.-; I didn't want my house to stink LOL

 

[Sparda29]

This is why scrubs (disposable or hospital issued at beginning of shift and returned at end of shift) should be standard wear for everyone at the hospital except the non-healthcare personnel. I used to do this on some of my hospital rotations where I knew that I wouldn't see the preceptor for the rest of the day.

 

[owlegrad]

I really doubt anyone would tell you that you have BO if it wasn't true. It would not be a fun thing to tell someone and you should be thankful that they did - you can fix something that you didn't realize was an issue. Probably time to shower daily and wear deodorant, if you are not already.

 

[PharmEcon]

I really doubt anyone would tell you that you have BO if it wasn't true. It would not be a fun thing to tell someone and you should be thankful that they did - you can fix something that you didn't realize was an issue. Probably time to shower daily and wear deodorant, if you are not already.

This. Look at it this way- at least someone brought up a potential issue now when you can fix it without much harm as opposed to during an interview or something where it could cost you a job.

 

[BenJammin]

Lots of unanswered questions so I'll ask them anyway in case you come back.

• Are you a male or a female?

This is a very important question because men and women aren't equal in terms of what is defined as professional, semi-professional, casual, semi-casual, etc. If you're a guy put on an undershirt, button up shirt, slacks, belt, dress shoes, and black socks. That is semi-professional. There is no such thing as semi-casual. Add a tie and coat optional and you have professional. If you're a lady then I can't comment. I really don't understand how a male pharmacy student can "dress poorly" unless they are indeed poor. You don't have a dress shirt and slacks? If not, this is a problem. Your professors taught you NOTHING if you have been wearing jeans and plaid shirts to the hospital every day.

• Resident: medical or pharmacy?

If it's a medical resident then who cares? Don't respond to them. Just smile and nod. Pharmacy resident is different because they are certainly giving input to your preceptor.

• What were these hygiene practice examples that the resident gave to you?

This is huge because it will let us know the problem. They're giving you examples so you can fix the problem...there is absolutely no reason for you to think "I have no idea what he's talking about". Did they talk to you about showering and deodorant? That means you're stinky. Did they talk to you about brushing your teeth? That means you have bad breath.

This is just confusing all around. During my last year of rotations I was around pharmacy residents a lot and some of them were dumber than a box of rocks. Anything they said I would usually respond with a sarcastic "yes" and just keep going about my business. But the point here is that you should probably do some self examination first. Do you smell? Do you dress unprofessionally? If you want, send me pictures through private PM of what you normally wear to your advanced rotations and I will tell you my honest opinion. I won't share any pictures you send me and it will remain 100% private. Blur your face and any name tags if it makes you feel more comfortable.

 

[Estrace]

I really doubt anyone would tell you that you have BO if it wasn't true. It would not be a fun thing to tell someone and you should be thankful that they did - you can fix something that you didn't realize was an issue. Probably time to shower daily and wear deodorant, if you are not already.

Agreed. You should be grateful that this person said something to you instead of behind your back. I'm sure others are probably making fun of you behind your back but the resident chose to let you know so that you can fix it. The truth is that most people who smell or have bad breath don't know that they do. Don't take it personal, be appreciative that someone cared enough to call your attention to it.

 

[Carboxide]

I sincerely doubt this resident said this just to piss you off. It is an extremely uncomfortable conversation to have to have, so even if it was JUST his opinion, he must have felt strongly to bring it up.

I think BenJammin is on the money here. Answer those questions and I have more input, I think.

By the way - I think it's very strange that you would be willing to do more if you were getting paid. Failing a rotation is bad news...do you really want to delay graduation for potentially a year? Students do not get the kind of respect you are thinking of. The site typically does NOT get paid (unless it is a new diploma mill) and the preceptors spend a lot of time and energy helping you out. They don't get anything for it except the personal satisfaction of helping a student...and it takes them a LOT of work.

 

[ucrx]

Personally I would search my soul and see if their is some truth to the statement. Maybe look for a new deodorant/anti-persperant, maybe iron clothes before work, etc. Now please don't offense to these recommendations, I do not know you personally, I'm just saying it's very difficult for someone to come to you and say those things so I would at least consider the possibility he was doing you a favor.

This. If they brought it up, there was a reason. Just because no one else has said anything doesn't mean it isn't a problem. It might be that others don't spend as much time with you or are uncomfortable, or it may be the resident knows what the preceptor evaluates students on and is trying to do you a favor.

Even if you're wearing appropriate clothes, are they ironed? Is your white coat clean or is it covered in coffee stains? Do you rewear clothes before washing? I know that many students (and professionals) don't realize the importance of these things. It isn't just what you wear to work/rotations, but the details as well.

It's a ****ing resident. They aren't your preceptor. Technically, in a way, they are also doing a type of rotation. They answer to their preceptor the same way you do to yours.

They might not be the official preceptor, but depending on where you're doing the rotation they may be a lot more than just another person on rotation. At my PGY2 site, residents acted as preceptors for students several times in the year. They were the ones rounding with the students and doing discussions. They were the ones filling out the evaluation at the end of the rotation. So be careful- the resident may have way more pull than you realize.

Nobody can fail you based on an isolated incident. Even if it goes back to the school, you could say listen,"I've had x amount of rotations with x amount of preceptors and residents. Call them right now and see how much they loved me and if they had a problem."

Yes they can, especially if it has to do with a professionalism issue. It doesn't matter if you got amazing scores and impressed every single person you came in contact with at other rotations. You can be failed at a site because of a single issue. Policies of course vary by school, but most schools will allow a preceptor to fail you (or kick you off a rotation which really can mean the same thing) if they deem it appropriate.

I'm not saying if you're truly doing nothing wrong or someone is being rude to just suck it up no matter what. But take into consideration the reasons they're saying what they are and that the situation may have a bigger impact than you realize.

 

[BenJammin]

Yes they can, especially if it has to do with a professionalism issue. It doesn't matter if you got amazing scores and impressed every single person you came in contact with at other rotations. You can be failed at a site because of a single issue. Policies of course vary by school, but most schools will allow a preceptor to fail you (or kick you off a rotation which really can mean the same thing) if they deem it appropriate.

I'm not saying if you're truly doing nothing wrong or someone is being rude to just suck it up no matter what. But take into consideration the reasons they're saying what they are and that the situation may have a bigger impact than you realize.

Most definitely. You'd be surprised at how many people assume they can keep on with their erratic behavior because one rotation site decided to tolerate it. That goes for all kinds of behavior, by the way, including how you handle yourself with questions. I had one preceptor tell me that I'm going to be a great pharmacist in whatever avenue I choose and another preceptor call me lazy and embarrassing. Take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I have a coworker who has hygiene problems. I didn't realize it until I spent an hour sitting next to him in a hot conference room. The stench of BO was horrible.

 

[pharm1alp]

I appreciate everyone's inputs regarding this issue, and I've decided to let it go for the better of things in the future. I will disagree with some of the comments about how the resident was giving good advice because it was true. It is not true to the extent that the resident does not know me well enough to make that kind of assumption. This was perhaps the 3rd time I've met that person, and frankly that week was incredibly hot. It is ridiculous that I would need to present myself in a pristine manner after working hard throughout the day while the resident was sitting in a cubicle all day. In any case, I have changed my appearance to be more professional, and none of my preceptors have taken noticed or mentioned anything. They seemed to cared more about my work than my appearance. Btw, I will also mention on the issue of payments. I don't know about everyone here, but I value my money. Just because I don't see the physical cash being taken away to pay for my tuition, doesn't mean that amount has no value. This is why I think these pharmacy schools are ripping off students, and yet no one complains about it. It is not okay to tolerate these kind of insults while some third party is taking your money and putting you in this kind of situation. So I am not sure how anyone here can not expect more from what you are paying for.

 

[Bubblewrap]

What if someone has good hygiene, but has hyperhidrosis? 😛

 

[BenJammin]

What if someone has good hygiene, but has hyperhidrosis? 😛

Do what I do: wear black pants, darker colored shirts, and use Degree Clinical+ anti-perspirant.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Do what I do: wear black pants, darker colored shirts, and use Degree Clinical+ anti-perspirant.

Agree with all of this. I have a tendency to get very hot too, especially when working retail. The other thing I would add to that is if you are a sweater, you have to wash your clothes every time you wear them. No trying to get two wears out of a pair of pants. Clean clothes every day to avoid being stank.

 

[rph3664]

I had one preceptor tell me that I'm going to be a great pharmacist in whatever avenue I choose and another preceptor call me lazy and embarrassing. Take it all with a grain of salt.

I had the same experience, and filed a complaint against the latter preceptor, who I did understand was going through some major changes in her life - positive changes, but changes nonetheless. She did get a talking-to, and the insulting behavior stopped. And I did pass the rotation.

At my old job, we had a student on rotations who showed up in Daisy Dukes pants, and a tank top with a lacy poncho over it and several inches of midriff showing through. She was not asked to go home to change, but was told that she needed to cover up a little more. And she did have the figure to dress that way, but it was not appropriate in that setting.

 

[rph3664]

I had a classmate who had one of these t-shirts, and regularly wore it to class. My brother had one too, but he never went out in public without a jacket or vest. The host of MTV's "120 Minutes", a late-night alt-rock show, also wore this one evening, likewise with a vest, but I knew what his shirt said. 😀

Most of the images are NSFW.


https://www.google.com/search?q=ins...aFYba9AS4kYCYAg&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=679

The band is better known for the t-shirts than for any of their music.

No, he didn't wear it on rotations.

 

[Ackj]

What if someone has good hygiene, but has hyperhidrosis? 😛

Doesn't matter if you're a male, trim your hairy armpits. The sweat will collect there and it stinks. Also the deodorant will not apply as well to your skin because it will just get stuck on the hair. I'm not saying you have to fully shave them, but definitely trim.

 

[rph3664]

Is Drysol still available? I dispensed, and recommended, it a few times when I worked in retail. It's not very expensive, either.

 

[Lnsean]

Is Drysol still available? I dispensed, and recommended, it a few times when I worked in retail. It's not very expensive, either.

ye, it's available as hypercare

 

[Bubblewrap]

Doesn't matter if you're a male, trim your hairy armpits. The sweat will collect there and it stinks. Also the deodorant will not apply as well to your skin because it will just get stuck on the hair. I'm not saying you have to fully shave them, but definitely trim.

I like it when guys shave anyways

 

[knight on horse]

Get deodorant and a tie you chump

You are paying, but they are also putting up with you.

Not that I particularly respected my preceptors or other staff either

 

[knight on horse]

You aren't allowed to have an opinion when you are in school. Academia is a bizarre institution when you pay people to be subservient to them and torture you. It will be over and you can look back and roll your eyes over the entire 4 yeas worth of nonsense.

Agreed, wish I had not had to waste my time there