Advice on CV for Internship Applicants - Current/Former Nontrad Applicants Help!

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coloradocutter

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Hi everyone. I am adding this as a general post outside of the APPIC internship forum, but if I don't any bites, I will try there.

I am a nontraditional student. I have felt pretty isolated throughout my graduate program. My program emphasizes straight out of undergrad and students staying 7 years. I am in my 30s and surrounded by 20 somethings. I have 3 children, a law degree, and 5 years of experience practicing. I have finished my milestones in 4 years and am applying in my 4th year with good stats and hours. My DCT pretty much openly discriminated against my application, but my MP is the most senior faculty member and wanted me, so it didn't matter. I do not feel like I can talk to my DCT for advice on this matter and my MP is dealing with a family illness and won't be back until after apps. Since I am a lawyer, I know I don't have an age discrimination claim until I am 40, but as a lawyer, I also would rather jump off a bridge that be a part of any type of legal suit. However, I do not like how my DCT dismisses my legal experience as unimportant and views it as a handicap, rather than an asset because he didn't get to mold me correctly.

Let me try to get to the point... So, I really am considering leaving graduation dates off of my CV. I am very afraid of discrimination based on my age. Some sites like the BOP are likely going to do this off the bat (the BOP wants you to be younger so you don't run into the cant' be 37 when you apply for job after internship/postdoc). When I was a lawyer, I encountered nontraditional applicants alot who did this all the time. However, with the internship process, they get my transcripts which have my DOB, so it's pretty obvious there. However, if they are sitting around with my CV then it's there or not. I don't want them sitting there doing the math. I would never know if they discriminated based on age. I am so worried I won't get interviews over this.

Please give me your thoughts ASAP - deadlines are coming up and I am ready to submit things.:eek:

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I can see why you are worried since you have had this awful experience. However, I am also a nontraditional student in your age range, and my age was nothing but an asset when I was in the internship process. The two of us who were the oldest in the program got the most interviews. I did not feel like it was a liability at all, but rather that sites favored life experience.
 
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Thanks Psycycle. I guess your advice would be to bare it all? That is where I had come down pretty much, but I wasn't sure.
 
Thanks Psycycle. I guess your advice would be to bare it all? That is where I had come down pretty much, but I wasn't sure.

Well, it was definitely an asset for me. But those things might also depend on what types of places you're applying to. I did all hospitals and VAs, and matched in a VA. I did have friends who were open about their age, but did not mention their children as they felt it was possible that sites may not hire someone with children because they would discriminate based on thinking they wouldn't stay late, etc. I can't speak to that as well as I had no children at the time.

Horrible process where you have to worry about these things!
 
I don't have any firsthand experience on this, but I would wonder if leaving grad dates out would stand out in itself, prompting the reader to do a little digging and/or be annoyed. Also, I would think that if you are going to mention your law degree, they will already imagine that you are older.

Two women in my program were in their 40's and had no problems matching (although they had both graduated UG more recently).

Good luck!
Dr. E
 
what does BOP mean?

Regarding age, I really don't think it's a hindrance for internship. True, some places may prefer younger people, but in my experience, the vast majority view experience as the top priority with where you are on your dissertation as a second priority. Like you said, you can only omit so much regarding your age. It will come out in some way (e.g. transcript, speaking about having gone to law school/having a career prior to psych, how you look/dress/talk). Even more so, if some place views you as less valuable based on your age, I really doubt you'd want to be there anyway cause once you're in, they will treat you less favorably than your colleagues. One last bit: If your law experience is relevant to the settings that you're applying to, such as forensic sites, you should definitely include it on the cv and may even try to wiggle it into your cover letters.
 
All good comments everyone. I thought about the issue with children, but I am hoping that they will figure out that finishing a clinical PhD program in 4 years minus internship means that I definitely will put in hours. They don't need to know that my husband is Superman. Thanks so much. This really made me feel better!
 
I do not think your DCT's actions are generalizable to the rest of the field. I am sure there are internships that prefer a range of applicants types (and age ranges). As mentioned earlier, it would be more of a red flag if you did not include your dates.

Furthermore, when you interview in person the internship will know your approximate age. So, don't waste your time trying to conceal your age.
 
I'm pullin' for ya, colorado!!! As a mid-thirty-something just starting my doc program, I really hope that you find some good fits with some mature trainers who truly appreciate your life experience--I know I will be that person when I'm in that role someday.

What do you mean when you say this (the bolded portion):

Some sites like the BOP are likely going to do this off the bat (the BOP wants you to be younger so you don't run into the cant' be 37 when you apply for job after internship/postdoc).

Is there some kind of age limit at the BOP??? :confused:
 
I am also a non traditional student in terms of age. I am 48 and I decided to leave my graduation dates and employment dates off my CV. It should be obvious that I am much older than a traditional 20-something. But why draw attention to it. If you will notice the AAPI does not have a place for dates or other personally identifiable data that might identify you as an older student. Frankly, there is age discrimination in doctoral admissions at some places. Many doctoral faculty want younger, more pliable, grad assistants in their labs. When I made conatcts at many schools I was told that Imy age was a factor against me. From a grad profs perspective you can't mold an older student into the image of yourself as easily as a younger student. But I think this is much less likely to be true among internship directors than a grad school admissions committee.
 
I am also a non traditional student in terms of age. I am 48 and I decided to leave my graduation dates and employment dates off my CV. It should be obvious that I am much older than a traditional 20-something. But why draw attention to it. If you will notice the AAPI does not have a place for dates or other personally identifiable data that might identify you as an older student. Frankly, there is age discrimination in doctoral admissions at some places. Many doctoral faculty want younger, more pliable, grad assistants in their labs. When I made conatcts at many schools I was told that Imy age was a factor against me. From a grad profs perspective you can't mold an older student into the image of yourself as easily as a younger student. But I think this is much less likely to be true among internship directors than a grad school admissions committee.

Did anyone at a program come out and tell you this directly? That could be a very dangerous statement for any program to make.
 
I'm pullin' for ya, colorado!!! As a mid-thirty-something just starting my doc program, I really hope that you find some good fits with some mature trainers who truly appreciate your life experience--I know I will be that person when I'm in that role someday.

What do you mean when you say this (the bolded portion):



Is there some kind of age limit at the BOP??? :confused:
Yes, there is an age limit at the BOP. Because you are a sworn law enforcement officer, there is a mandatory 20 year retirement. Due to this, they have an exemption from the ADA. You must be 37 at the time of employment (after internship) to be hired. Waivers are available up until age 40, but I was told by a highly credible source that it NEVER happens. The cut-off won't apply to me, but he pretty much said that they discriminate - why waste a slot on someone who cant work for them. It was pretty shameless. They are not supposed to discriminate for internship, but it sounded like they kind of do. So, basically if you will be over 37 at job application, you are likely out for internship. Not 100%, but it's going to be really tough.
 
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what does BOP mean?

Regarding age, I really don't think it's a hindrance for internship. True, some places may prefer younger people, but in my experience, the vast majority view experience as the top priority with where you are on your dissertation as a second priority. Like you said, you can only omit so much regarding your age. It will come out in some way (e.g. transcript, speaking about having gone to law school/having a career prior to psych, how you look/dress/talk). Even more so, if some place views you as less valuable based on your age, I really doubt you'd want to be there anyway cause once you're in, they will treat you less favorably than your colleagues. One last bit: If your law experience is relevant to the settings that you're applying to, such as forensic sites, you should definitely include it on the cv and may even try to wiggle it into your cover letters.
BOP=Federal Bureau of Prisons
 
I was by far the oldest in my grad school cohort of generally 22 year-olds, and I got 11 interviews for internship and matched at my first choice. In fact, many TDs asked about my previous work, why I changed to psych, etc., and we had some very meaningful conversations. I did not feel any age discrimination during interviews. In fact, it was a plus for many sites.
 
I would think that age is not much of a factor for internship, aside from the BoP issue you brought up. It is more likely one in doctoral admissions...and in my experience, some faculty prefer older applicants to younger ones.
 
I would think that age is not much of a factor for internship, aside from the BoP issue you brought up. It is more likely one in doctoral admissions...and in my experience, some faculty prefer older applicants to younger ones.

Agreed.
 
I am also a non traditional student in terms of age. I am 48 and I decided to leave my graduation dates and employment dates off my CV. It should be obvious that I am much older than a traditional 20-something. But why draw attention to it. If you will notice the AAPI does not have a place for dates or other personally identifiable data that might identify you as an older student. Frankly, there is age discrimination in doctoral admissions at some places. Many doctoral faculty want younger, more pliable, grad assistants in their labs. When I made conatcts at many schools I was told that Imy age was a factor against me. From a grad profs perspective you can't mold an older student into the image of yourself as easily as a younger student. But I think this is much less likely to be true among internship directors than a grad school admissions committee.

This was my impression as well. I was warned by multiple faculty that I was "aging out" as a prospective grad school applicant (this was while I was a non-trad UG). I think part of the rationale is that the department wants to train folks for career longevity; if you're "too old" at the time of matriculation, you simply don't have that long in academia prior to retirement to bring glory upon your alma mater (X years to graduate, Y years on the academic job market, Z years 'til tenure review). With regards to internship, I have read posts from folks on the doc forum here who say that they have had trouble getting an APA internship (in their early 50s) and attribute it to age (not BOP-related, and please don't ask for thread link because it's been awhile and I can't recall title).

After becoming a grad student (despite my age) and seeing how profs behave, I think the pliability argument holds water too; I also think some faculty simply like to be around young, energetic, beautiful thangs. If you're reading this skeptically, just feel lucky that you weren't exposed to profs who acted as though the 23 year old with smooth skin and a six-figure UG tuition bill from some unknown SLAC was the wisest person in the room.
 
This was my impression as well. I was warned by multiple faculty that I was "aging out" as a prospective grad school applicant (this was while I was a non-trad UG). I think part of the rationale is that the department wants to train folks for career longevity; if you're "too old" at the time of matriculation, you simply don't have that long in academia prior to retirement to bring glory upon your alma mater (X years to graduate, Y years on the academic job market, Z years 'til tenure review). With regards to internship, I have read posts from folks on the doc forum here who say that they have had trouble getting an APA internship (in their early 50s) and attribute it to age (not BOP-related, and please don't ask for thread link because it's been awhile and I can't recall title).

After becoming a grad student (despite my age) and seeing how profs behave, I think the pliability argument holds water too; I also think some faculty simply like to be around young, energetic, beautiful thangs. If you're reading this skeptically, just feel lucky that you weren't exposed to profs who acted as though the 23 year old with smooth skin and a six-figure UG tuition bill from some unknown SLAC was the wisest person in the room.

I believe it happens - I just happened to go to a place where multiple faculty valued life experiences. We had several nontraditional students. Sure, many of us were in our early 20's, but I knew people in my program ranging from 30's to 50's and there were at least two profs who had a clear preference in that direction. I completely believe that it can work against older folks at some places as well.

For internship, it just seems like less of an issue since at most places is is a one year commitment. Some people may view older applicants as more mature - other may think they'll have problems taking orders. Not sure it is an issue for everyone making selections.
 
I cannot speak to the BOP aspect, but I believe that for state, county and community systems your life experience will be seen as an asset and you should work to find a way to highlight it. Since, as you point out, those who really have age bias will have access to the DOB in transcripts, you do not really avoid the problem by leaving grad dates of the c.v. and for me might make it more notable. We actually look for maturity and employment experience prior to grad school because it usually adds flexibility, skills, and readiness to deal with the stresses of SMI and organizational demands. Just be sure you apply to a range of settings and include some that don't have age ceilings. Don't let the biases of your program contaminate your view of the real clinical world beyond grad school.
 
Did anyone at a program come out and tell you this directly? That could be a very dangerous statement for any program to make.


Yep I heard that at 3 places when I was sending out feelers as to where to apply. The statements were something along the line of "Your age may work against you ..." of course this was never put in writing by anyone.
 
Yep I heard that at 3 places when I was sending out feelers as to where to apply. The statements were something along the line of "Your age may work against you ..." of course this was never put in writing by anyone.

Hi all..sorry am new to this...I'm very interested in going back to school n getting my masters or phd in psychology but I'm 42 and honestly worried bout finding a job when I graduate...id love ur feedback bout the job market n if I should get my bachelors master's or Phd..thank u
 
Hi all..sorry am new to this...I'm very interested in going back to school n getting my masters or phd in psychology but I'm 42 and honestly worried bout finding a job when I graduate...id love ur feedback bout the job market n if I should get my bachelors master's or Phd..thank u

Academic vs. clinical? Major metro center vs. other areas of country?
 
I am also a non traditional student in terms of age. I am 48 and I decided to leave my graduation dates and employment dates off my CV. It should be obvious that I am much older than a traditional 20-something. But why draw attention to it. If you will notice the AAPI does not have a place for dates or other personally identifiable data that might identify you as an older student. Frankly, there is age discrimination in doctoral admissions at some places. Many doctoral faculty want younger, more pliable, grad assistants in their labs. When I made conatcts at many schools I was told that Imy age was a factor against me. From a grad profs perspective you can't mold an older student into the image of yourself as easily as a younger student. But I think this is much less likely to be true among internship directors than a grad school admissions committee.

No doubt this is true, but remember that many departments also have young, junior faculty who may be intimidated by an older student. In many cases, a nontrad student might be older than the faculty member, and thus the preference can be borne out of insecurity more than "wanting to mold a younger person." I interviewed a older applicant last year and wrestled with some of those very thoughts. Just to provide a different perspective.
 
No doubt this is true, but remember that many departments also have young, junior faculty who may be intimidated by an older student. In many cases, a nontrad student might be older than the faculty member, and thus the preference can be borne out of insecurity more than "wanting to mold a younger person." I interviewed a older applicant last year and wrestled with some of those very thoughts. Just to provide a different perspective.

Why would junior faculty feel intimidated? They have the power in the relationship.

Is it because older prospective students may have more finely calibrated BS meters?

Not saying that this is what EmotRegulation is saying, but more generally: I think it's pretty obnoxious for faculty to assume that older folks are automatically going to be crotchety and intransigent and that young people are pliable and cooperative (I think many do assume this, but I also think they're wrong to do so). Having TAed the big intro class in my department, I can say that working with the kids was a huge pain--they acted as though they were too good to show up for lecture or meetings, chatted during lecture, screwed up the grading scale for everybody by pursuing their own agendas, etc.
 
Why would junior faculty feel intimidated? They have the power in the relationship.

Is it because older prospective students may have more finely calibrated BS meters?

Not saying that this is what EmotRegulation is saying, but more generally: I think it's pretty obnoxious for faculty to assume that older folks are automatically going to be crotchety and intransigent and that young people are pliable and cooperative (I think many do assume this, but I also think they're wrong to do so). Having TAed the big intro class in my department, I can say that working with the kids was a huge pain--they acted as though they were too good to show up for lecture or meetings, chatted during lecture, screwed up the grading scale for everybody by pursuing their own agendas, etc.

Sure, and with some people there is also a sense of entitlement with age or the expectation of "preferential" treatment (e.g., don't make me do that data entry stuff, I worked in a different industry for 15 years before this - give that to the younger people). I had a mentor that took both older and fresh out of college students, and there was more than one time that they asked me to do the more undesirable work for our team because they thought the older students would be insulted by it. In a sense, it was "taking one for the team" because we appreciated their experience and contributions. But fair? Not sure.

As a young faculty member, I personally haven't had to make any admission decisions yet. But I'd imagine there is a somewhat bimodal distribution when it comes to age and sense of entitlement. I'd agree with you that you are more likely to get younger students that act unprofessionally. Some of the students I teach are older than I am, and I personally think that they are my best students.

I wouldn't be intimidated by an older mentee. But I think I would feel very hesitant about assigning them duties in my lab, just given my natural inclination to defer to my elders. That is a bridge I am going to have to cross as the years go by.
 
Yes, the faculty member has the power, but academics are also quite prone to imposter syndrome. I've worked hard to get where I am, as have other junior faculty, but I remember talking to one of my colleagues last year who, in her fifth year, said "I think it's only about now that I feel like I know what I'm doing and am justified in being here." I also think that taking obviously younger students who need more mentoring (in writing, in time management, etc.) could make a junior faculty member feel more secure, and less so when mentoring an older student. It's not logical, but it might be a factor. Along with "Is this person, ten years my senior with a family and life experience really going to listen to me?" It absolutely isn't fair; I'm not condoning the practice. I just happen to believe that people make selfish decisions more than outwardly intentionally rude ones.
 
I think it's pretty obnoxious for faculty to assume that older folks are automatically going to be crotchety and intransigent and that young people are pliable and cooperative (I think many do assume this, but I also think they're wrong to do so). Having TAed the big intro class in my department, I can say that working with the kids was a huge pain--they acted as though they were too good to show up for lecture or meetings, chatted during lecture, screwed up the grading scale for everybody by pursuing their own agendas, etc.

I also think that taking obviously younger students who need more mentoring (in writing, in time management, etc.) could make a junior faculty member feel more secure, and less so when mentoring an older student. It's not logical, but it might be a factor. Along with "Is this person, ten years my senior with a family and life experience really going to listen to me?" It absolutely isn't fair; I'm not condoning the practice. I just happen to believe that people make selfish decisions more than outwardly intentionally rude ones.

I think these are really good points. Not all faculty are going to respond the same. I've long admitted my own bias towards older (or, not young) students and I am starting to really see what wigflip is talking about (and what I've always known based on my own life experience)--the younger grad students in my program are anxious, they overinflate their knowledge, the speak as if they know when they couldn't possibly and they lack the corresponding humility, and they are fairly naive. They've learned to be this way to get where they are. Of course, an older student will be jaded and expect to have their experiences valued, and they'll be nervous in their own way. Everyone will choose their preference, maybe based on their own experience as a young/old student. Very interesting.
 
I don't think this will be a systematic issue. For those sites that would discriminate if they saw your dates on your CV, they will discriminate when they see you sitting in front of them and are not 24.

Btw I am a non-trad as well. I am considering dying my hair as I have significant greys and feel a little icky about doing that, but as a straight blonde that still won't make me look 15 years younger, despite all that moisturizing ;)
 
I don't think this will be a systematic issue. For those sites that would discriminate if they saw your dates on your CV, they will discriminate when they see you sitting in front of them and are not 24.

Btw I am a non-trad as well. I am considering dying my hair as I have significant greys and feel a little icky about doing that, but as a straight blonde that still won't make me look 15 years younger, despite all that moisturizing ;)

Woo-hoo! Non-trads unite! I got the greys too. I like to think of them as my "highlights." :cool:

As for older students feeling entitled--interesting point, but I don't think I've seen that as much in my department. I like to think that as a non-trad I've gained some pragmatism and know how to pick my battles and when to roll over. Perhaps not on sdn, but in real life...:laugh:
 
Woo-hoo! Non-trads unite! I got the greys too. I like to think of them as my "highlights." :cool:

As for older students feeling entitled--interesting point, but I don't think I've seen that as much in my department. I like to think that as a non-trad I've gained some pragmatism and know how to pick my battles and when to roll over. Perhaps not on sdn, but in real life...:laugh:

I am sure that many younger students aren't aware of the concept of picking battles. Then of course there are the completely entitled younger students that will battle any expectations.

I don't think it is necessarily a blatant thing with older students. But at least in my experience, there has been some subtle entitlement and preferential treatment of nontraditional students, at least in the setting I was in. I suppose some would just consider that an equalizer to whatever discrimination they have faced in other settings.

But much like I have commented in the past about having to work more hours for my colleagues with children, I didn't really like having to do the more annoying work. I could have been a squeakier wheel about it, but in the long run it seems that knowing my place and being a "team player" helped open doors to get the positions I wanted and the ongoing, full support of most people I have ever worked with.

There has to be a graduate school search committee out there with binders full of nontraditional students :smuggrin:
 
But at least in my experience, there has been some subtle entitlement and preferential treatment of nontraditional students, at least in the setting I was in. I suppose some would just consider that an equalizer to whatever discrimination they have faced in other settings.

But much like I have commented in the past about having to work more hours for my colleagues with children, I didn't really like having to do the more annoying work. I could have been a squeakier wheel about it, but in the long run it seems that knowing my place and being a "team player" helped open doors to get the positions I wanted and the ongoing, full support of most people I have ever worked with.

It's so different program by program. I have not seen that, in fact I have seen the opoosite, with bright young things gettng preferential tx to older folks. However, in most of my clinical placements, I have had a good response to being older. Occasionally i have noticed some tension when the supervisor is my age, but as the student i take it as my responsibility to make them feel comfortable and make it clear i am there to learn from them. i have far more expereince being an older grad student than they have teachng older students.
 
It's so different program by program. I have not seen that, in fact I have seen the opoosite, with bright young things gettng preferential tx to older folks. However, in most of my clinical placements, I have had a good response to being older. Occasionally i have noticed some tension when the supervisor is my age, but as the student i take it as my responsibility to make them feel comfortable and make it clear i am there to learn from them. i have far more expereince being an older grad student than they have teachng older students.

When you talk about preferential treatment, what do you mean? I am stating that I have seen cases where nontraditional students don't have to "pay dues" as much as younger ones do in a research lab. Perhaps that means they don't have to do as much of the grunt work (such as data entry) or aren't expected to burn the midnight oil as much. It wasn't really anything beyond that...I just recall having to put in more time up front in the program before getting some of those perks.
 
Same question to you, wig.

I think a lot of it is subtle and interactional, and can also get muddied by other statuses (race, class, gender, appearance). A few examples come to mind, mostly what I suggested before: the "kids" get away with a lot in terms of absenteeism, lateness, shenanigans (mostly as TAs, but also with regards to classes). I've never witnessed nor heard of any of that coming back to bite anyone. On the contrary, these seem to be the same folks who garner the departmental funding awards. I also recall Mr. Gorgeous 23 year-old showing up late for class in the middle of the term the first year and using the excuse that he "got lost." The prof fell all over himself, gibbering something to the effect that "Mr. Gorgeous is absolutely the last person I would have imagined that happening to." :rolleyes: Same prof appeared to favor those sporting twenty-something cleavage.

Oh, another quick example: one class had two TAs: grandma here and Young Thang. I started tracking and at one point realized that YT had missed >25% of lectures. And the prof seemed to think I knew something about this, "Wig, have you seen YT?" As if we were just hangin' out at Crappy's Slopalot in Campustown, or I'd just locked YT in a chest or something so I could get all that TA-y goodness for myself.
 
I think a lot of it is subtle and interactional, and can also get muddied by other statuses (race, class, gender, appearance). A few examples come to mind, mostly what I suggested before: the "kids" get away with a lot in terms of absenteeism, lateness, shenanigans (mostly as TAs, but also with regards to classes). I've never witnessed nor heard of any of that coming back to bite anyone. On the contrary, these seem to be the same folks who garner the departmental funding awards. I also recall Mr. Gorgeous 23 year-old showing up late for class in the middle of the term the first year and using the excuse that he "got lost." The prof fell all over himself, gibbering something to the effect that "Mr. Gorgeous is absolutely the last person I would have imagined that happening to." :rolleyes: Same prof appeared to favor those sporting twenty-something cleavage.

Oh, another quick example: one class had two TAs: grandma here and Young Thang. I started tracking and at one point realized that YT had missed >25% of lectures. And the prof seemed to think I knew something about this, "Wig, have you seen YT?" As if we were just hangin' out at Crappy's Slopalot in Campustown, or I'd just locked YT in a chest or something so I could get all that TA-y goodness for myself.
Interesting. I can see how that would be frustrating.

Your examples seem mostly about people getting away with unprofessional behavior. Absenteeism definitely didn't fly in my program for anyone, and if students came late more than once to class, they seemed to get dinged in their formal faculty evaluations. I suppose those types of norms do vary from place to place. It is probably much more centered on individual biases when it comes to being a ta.

Perhaps my example isn't common, but I think it reflects preferential treatment in a different way - meaning the old folks got a pass on some of the dues-paying activities that were more time consuming. But that likely varies from lab to lab as well.
 
How about the preferential ability to get away with being uber-confident and saying whatever sounds really impressive, regardless of whether the young one has any experience with it, whatsoever? It's amazing what they can get away with! Do aliens invade their college graduation and implant them with mini-search engines??
 
How about the preferential ability to get away with being uber-confident and saying whatever sounds really impressive, regardless of whether the young one has any experience with it, whatsoever? It's amazing what they can get away with! Do aliens invade their college graduation and implant them with mini-search engines??

there's certainly a surfeit of self-confidence amongst some of our young'uns.
 
This is definitely interesting - I've seen both ends of the spectrum. I've certainly encountered plenty of folks who are clearly still "children" even as undergrads or early grad students. I find it particularly interesting that one of the complaints seems to be overconfidence in the young'uns while just a few posts earlier there was discussion that faculty might accept them because they are perceived as more "malleable".

As for me - I can really only comment on undergrads since I'm not yet at a point where I'd be taking grad students (obviously, still being one myself). Grad students are obviously a VERY different population than undergrads (at least here), so its certainly up for discussion how much these are likely to generalize.

My older students are quite frequently my favorites when teaching. At least on the average, they are more motivated, respectful and professional. However, I've also seen their experience hinder them...often significantly. Not that I necessarily think this applies to any of the posters here, but whenever I see people talking about how "inexperienced" the young'uns are it causes me to raise an eyebrow. Many of the problems I've had with older students has been due to them assuming their "years of experience/elderly wisdom/etc." makes them right. In other words, I get far more of the "but my cousin used unproven treatment x and quit smoking...it must work!" from that crowd and no amount of literature, etc. can convince them otherwise. .

The lab has been interesting in different ways. I've had freshman straight out of undergrad, and I've had folks twice my age as RAs. Unquestionably, the older folks "got" the whole work setting professionalism thing and its rarely been an issue with them. Don't show up late, don't dress like a hobo, etc. However, I've also seen what Pragma mentioned...some resistance to doing the grunt work (and some other supervisors reluctance to give them grunt work...I have no such qualms;) ). Less expectation that they will put in extra hours - which of course can be both good and bad. On the one hand...less work for them. On the other hand, if they aren't asked to stay late, take on extra work, etc. they don't get the credit for it and are less likely to get the "awesome" LORs, etc.

Actually the biggest issue I've run into is having them working with other interns as part of a team. Almost guaranteed, they will take over and my other RAs will defer to them. Sometimes this works out, many times it does not. I don't worry so much about a power struggle with me - I can take control if need be. I'm not afraid to fire RAs (or threaten to) and have done so in the past.. I was planned on law before psychology so I can play hardball when need be. I HAVE run into issues when I have placed more "senior" RAs who have been in the lab longer in charge of things (i.e. train them in this task). I come by to check only to discover the older student has convinced the younger one of a "better" way to do it and now I have to retrain both of them. Doesn't happen too frequently, but enough for a pattern to emerge (and it never seems to happen with any other combination of ages).

I don't doubt there are people who prefer younger students. It sounds like wigflip and psychadelic might prefer older students if/when they are in a position to take students:) So its important to keep in mind this goes both ways. There is likely no magic way to tell in advance, so all you can do is cast a wide net and focus on finding the right fit.
 
This is definitely interesting - I've seen both ends of the spectrum. I've certainly encountered plenty of folks who are clearly still "children" even as undergrads or early grad students. I find it particularly interesting that one of the complaints seems to be overconfidence in the young'uns while just a few posts earlier there was discussion that faculty might accept them because they are perceived as more "malleable".

As for me - I can really only comment on undergrads since I'm not yet at a point where I'd be taking grad students (obviously, still being one myself). Grad students are obviously a VERY different population than undergrads (at least here), so its certainly up for discussion how much these are likely to generalize.

My older students are quite frequently my favorites when teaching. At least on the average, they are more motivated, respectful and professional. However, I've also seen their experience hinder them...often significantly. Not that I necessarily think this applies to any of the posters here, but whenever I see people talking about how "inexperienced" the young'uns are it causes me to raise an eyebrow. Many of the problems I've had with older students has been due to them assuming their "years of experience/elderly wisdom/etc." makes them right. In other words, I get far more of the "but my cousin used unproven treatment x and quit smoking...it must work!" from that crowd and no amount of literature, etc. can convince them otherwise. .

The lab has been interesting in different ways. I've had freshman straight out of undergrad, and I've had folks twice my age as RAs. Unquestionably, the older folks "got" the whole work setting professionalism thing and its rarely been an issue with them. Don't show up late, don't dress like a hobo, etc. However, I've also seen what Pragma mentioned...some resistance to doing the grunt work (and some other supervisors reluctance to give them grunt work...I have no such qualms;) ). Less expectation that they will put in extra hours - which of course can be both good and bad. On the one hand...less work for them. On the other hand, if they aren't asked to stay late, take on extra work, etc. they don't get the credit for it and are less likely to get the "awesome" LORs, etc.

Actually the biggest issue I've run into is having them working with other interns as part of a team. Almost guaranteed, they will take over and my other RAs will defer to them. Sometimes this works out, many times it does not. I don't worry so much about a power struggle with me - I can take control if need be. I'm not afraid to fire RAs (or threaten to) and have done so in the past.. I was planned on law before psychology so I can play hardball when need be. I HAVE run into issues when I have placed more "senior" RAs who have been in the lab longer in charge of things (i.e. train them in this task). I come by to check only to discover the older student has convinced the younger one of a "better" way to do it and now I have to retrain both of them. Doesn't happen too frequently, but enough for a pattern to emerge (and it never seems to happen with any other combination of ages).

I don't doubt there are people who prefer younger students. It sounds like wigflip and psychadelic might prefer older students if/when they are in a position to take students:) So its important to keep in mind this goes both ways. There is likely no magic way to tell in advance, so all you can do is cast a wide net and focus on finding the right fit.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Ollie. I think it is important to view some of these "trends" as objectively as possible. Your supervisory experiences definitely shed an interesting light on the spectrum of potential behavior.

As with anything, it is important not to generalize too much. I have plenty of complaints about entitled, fresh out of UG students...but I don't think most of them are that way (maybe just the ones we remember saliently).

One thing that I anticipate doing when I have nontraditional RAs is having an explicit conversation about it. I think it is perfectly fine to recognize someone's unique skills, experience, and maturity, while also setting the tone for equality in the lab. I have an attitude in the classroom where I enjoy learning from students...this helps create an environment supporting nontraditional students. I think that attitude will, to an extent, be important in the research lab as well.
 
One thing that I anticipate doing when I have nontraditional RAs is having an explicit conversation about it. I think it is perfectly fine to recognize someone's unique skills, experience, and maturity, while also setting the tone for equality in the lab.

Precisely what I did:)

Beyond that...agreed.
 
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