Advice on Research

[texantiger]

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I am going to be a sophomore this comming fall, and I am making plans to join a lab. I have narrowed down the offers I've gotten for a lab position to two labs, both of which are very enticing. Both labs work on developmental biology. One is headed by a new professor, working on zebrafish development (which is an exciting model system from my point of view). Moreover, I would also be one of only two students in her lab, meaning more personal attention, a chance to do more substantial research and possible more opportunties for publication. The other lab is headed by a Nobel prize winner working on fruit flies (which I have previously worked with in another lab internship). His lab is larger, but still has a personal feeling to it, though not as personal as the smaller lab. My concerns with this lab are that I would be at the bottom of the lab totem pole, so to speak. I find myself sort of leaning to the fish lab, but always having second thoughts. I always wonder whether or not I should turn up the opportunity to work with a Nobel winner, even if it means starting off doing scut work.
As far as applying for an MSTP position, or even a regular MD, would I benefit more from doing more substantial work with a greater opportunity for publication, or working for a Nobel prize winner?

Any thoughts?

 

[neurotiger]

Texantiger, I'm going to guess that we're at the same undergrad. institution and give you some angled advice...the zebrafish lab is extremely new and therefore may take a little bit of time to settle in. Unfortunately, because it's new, you can't get any insight from students already working there. However, a large number of students are in or have passed through the fly lab and can tell you about the personality of the PI (from what I've heard, he's great to work with but e-mail them directly). If you're intending to do your thesis in the same lab, which from what I've seen is more than likely, choose carefully in terms of: the type of research (though this should be a win-win situation), the people already in the lab (you'll be seeing a lot of them), and the strength and willingness of the PI as an important advisor.

 

[ninebillion]

You'll be presented with a number of more potent, exciting opportunities if you go with the new professor. You'll no doubt have an opportunity to do more hands-on work, and there is a greater chance that you will see your name in print. You'll also learn more about establishing a lab and finding a research niche.

Working with a "big name" (e.g., Nobel winner) is helpful to some extent, but in the end the goal is to demonstrate your own personal initiative, drive, and success. Sure, you'll have a Nobel winner's signature on what will no doubt be a positive recommendation letter, but you can more adequately impress admissions committees (not to mention learn a whole lot more) by anchoring yourself in a new lab and pursuing a sustained, productive experience.

Besides, you sound like you'll enjoy the zebrafish much more than you'll enjoy those damn flies.

 

[ninebillion]

Actually, if you're talking about Dr. Wieschaus (I'm guessing from the "tiger" in your username), you might get a lot more done and have a good time doing the stuff he does in his lab. You should schedule a visit with him and ask him about different projects and how you can get involved in X project with Y graduate student (or postdoc, as the case may be).

 

[Neuronix]

One other consideration is money. I don't know how much money the new lab has, but I'm sure that funding will not be an issue with the nobel prize winner. This means trips to conferences, a possible paying position, lots of cool new equipment, etc...

Just a thought.

 

[saco]

The money issue is certainly a good point. I chose a PI with a number of sizable grants and 10+ people in the lab. There are many advantages to that: I was able to get paid during summers so that I didn't have to get a regular job to pay the bills. I went to a couple of conferences with everything paid for by the lab. Apart from having my own project, within the years I got to work closely with everyone in the lab on a variety of other projects. This allowed me to learn virtually all techniques that were used in the lab. These are certainly things that you might consider.
As mentioned already, the types of techniques and equipment are also an issue to consider.

 

[psyuk]

i'm going to be brutally honest. no one gives a hoot about undergrad research. as an undergrad you should be more concerned about your gpa and mcat scores. with that said join the nobel laureate's lab so that you could get the big guy's signature on your loc. learn basic molecular bio techniques and get your name on a paper or two. in regards to undergrad thesis just bull**** your way through.

also note that the zebrafish genetics is much more difficult for the obvious reason of their being a higher ordered species than fruit flies. i.e. the crosses take much longer (long generation time) and you have to put up with more complex polymorphisms, mutagenesis screens and cloning.

 

[superdevil]

Its all about what you personally want. From my experience, if you work in a new professor's lab, he/she is under pressure by your university to publish papers to fill a certain quota to obtain tenure and rank. Therefore, they are heavily focused on their specific projects. He/she MAY choose to throw your name on some publishings, which is certainly tempting.

On the other hand, I've seen (and experienced) that in a larger lab with better funding, a PI is sometimes more inclined to let you start your own projects, which would demonstrate essential initiative and independence.

Just speaking from what I've seen-- both choices have many benefits. Enjoy!

 

[DarkChild]

my two cents:
undergrad research is usually hit or miss with more misses.
i would do research with the Nobel prize winner. if anything working with him will give you a sense of perspective - careerwise and also in the given field. plus its a rare chance to see how a laureate thinks...
i wouldnt even hesitate.

 

[Habari]

it doesn't matter where you work

about what dark_child said: as an undergrad in the lab you probably won't get to see how the laureate thinks and chances are you'll have little to no interaction with her.

furthermore, a completely impersonal letter from a laureate may carry weight, but certainly not as much as a much more personal letter from someone else - someone that can speak to you as a person intellectually, your creativity and personality.

basiclaly - it doesn't matter - just do something that interests you - as hackneyed as that may sound chances are you'll do better in that in the long run.


dark_child: i am the hot stepper

 

[noy]

If you had a feeling for one lab, trust your gut instinct.

I say go with your first thoughts, it sounds like you were leaning towards the zebrafish for logical reasons. You will have 2 years left as an undergrad, and even with the longer cycle times (as opposed to worms/flies), you can get a good project going by the time a year has gone by and tell all the MSTP programs about it.

Realistically, undergrad research is not usually as in depth because undergrads cannot devote 40 hours a week to experiments and thinking. So it ends up being scut work often, but if you get to develop your own project and work on it at your own (undergrad) pace, there is a chance for independence - which is is what you should be looking for (and what MSTP's want).

This might be a stronger possibility at the fish lab, as the younger PI might be full of ideas and side projects she/he can hand directly to you without going through a postoc.

In my experience, with any big-name scientist who runs a big lab and perhaps is director of a center or whatnot, you will end up working for an advanced grad student or postdoc, with minimal interaction at the top. The letter from a smaller lab, provided the PI knows you well, will carry much more weight.

When you are in an MSTP program, its very good to have a Nobel Laureate signing off on your dissertation :> Till then, I would not worry about it...

 

[crimson39]

i actually work for a nobel laureate and have found the experience to be quite rewarding. yeah, he's gone a lot, but it's not like he doesn't know who i am. i'm a pretty independent person, so it's nice to have a PI who just checks on you once a week and isn't always bothering you in lab. my lab is one of the top in the world in its field, and i've been published several times, once in science. all that has a lot to do with the fact that my PI is so good at what he does. it's great to be able to learn from someone like that.

on the other hand, my experience isn't for everyone. if you want to have your hand held, then the younger professors are more likely to do that. if you want to learn from the master, go with the nobel.

 

[crimson39]

i actually work for a nobel laureate and have found the experience to be quite rewarding. yeah, he's gone a lot, but it's not like he doesn't know who i am. i'm a pretty independent person, so it's nice to have a PI who just checks on you once a week and isn't always bothering you in lab. my lab is one of the top in the world in its field, and i've been published several times, once in science. all that has a lot to do with the fact that my PI is so good at what he does. it's great to be able to learn from someone like that.

on the other hand, my experience isn't for everyone. if you want to have your hand held, then the younger professors are more likely to do that. if you want to learn from the master, go with the nobel.