advice please

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amelie04

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Are there any females out there trying to balance or figuring out how to balance (in the future) a medical career and a family?

I am a 3rd year undergrad right now and since I can remember I have wanted to pursue a career in medicine. Just recently I started to wonder and agonize over where a family will fit into the picture. I don't want to give up on my career goals and dreams, but I also don't want to end up lonely or bitter because I didn't foster a family.

Do many of you have spouses and or children? Are you able to enjoy a good quality of life with them?

I have considered other careers in the health professions, but I honestly believe medicine is where I belong. However, I don't want to exclude the idea of having a family.

Any advice is appreciated.......
 
Realize that it won't be easy. You'l want to look for both med schools and residencies that are family friendly.

I know of several med students at my school who gave birth at various stages of med school. It's probably easier during med school than during residency, as school is more flexible.

I'm interviewing for general surgery residency right now. I have encountered a number of female surgery residents who have given birth during the residency. Most notable was univeristy of Connecticut, where many of the upper level residents have born children during the residency. The other residents and faculty just took it in stride, it really wasn't seen as any big deal.

Do what you like. You'll figure out a way to manage when you need too. And know that there won't be a "good time" to start a family.
 
Hi Amelie!

?Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined? (Henry David Thoreau, 1817-1862).

I am 4th year medical student, my son will be 5 years old this summer and I did just great in med school!

I think it is not a big deal if your husband supports your decision and has a little more flexible schedule then you. It can get hard sometimes around boards or major exams, however there is nothing better than to come home after a hard day and play and laugh with your child, takes your mind off from any problems that you might have.

In reality it all comes down to efficient time management. If you feel that being a doctor is your life long dream go for it, just make sure other people in your life are OK with it too.

Good Luck!
🙂
 
There's a website called mommd.com that focuses on this topic.
 
I would take the quote that general surgery programs "really don't think it is a big deal" with a huge grain of salt--they have to say those things to attract applicants. Some fields are more family-friendly than others, but as a whole, I think medicine is in the stone ages when compared to other industries. My general surgery program is happy when it's female residents get pregnant, but then does things like make those residents make up every call from their maternity leave, make breastfeeding an impossibility, etc. You want to look for places that put their money where their mouth is, and I don't think many exist.
 
why shouldn't someone make up calls they missed?
who should do them?
 
The American Women's Surgical Association recommends that women who go on maternity leave not be required to make up call, just as people who are injured or sick not be required to make up call. It's hard enough to have a child during residency without having to work twice as hard after the child is born. And yes, women have a right to have children during residency--it is not fair to demand they delay childbearing until they are in their mid 30's, when it becomes statistically more difficult to conceive.
 
hmmm...i agree with a woman having a right to have a child whenever she wants. and i do agree that the employer needs to make that a reasonalbe possibility. but, that is a lot of time off. and other residents get absolutely screwed with call when someone is out that long. it seems very reasonable that they be required to make that time up to the other residents. this is not like missing one call due to the flu...

these are things that need to be considered before you start a residency. nobody is asking you to delay having a child. but, if you are going into medicne, you are starting a residency, you have special responsibilities. do an easier residency, delay the residency, or expect to make up call that others had to cover for you. fair is fair.
 
So in other words, we as males are supposed to pick up your slack because of your perceived "right" to have a child? How arrogant, unfair and rude!! Now, I support having children, I hope to have some myself, but will never be allowed to miss my responsibility at the hospital. What about those of us who have families of our own or wives who are delivering children? Do we deserve to be off of work less simply because we are not in labor ourselves? Are we not equally "entitled" to spend time with our families? Granted, the physical act of delivery warrants some time off, but the emotional aspect of a family is EQUALLY important for mothers and fathers. However, fathers are not "allowed" the same "right" as a mother to tend to family. If you take time off to deliver, so be it..I support that entirely. However, expect to make up call when the rest of us pick up the pieces because we have every bit of a right to develop our personal lives as you do. If you miss the time, I could not imagine such selfishness as to ecpecting others to make up the time and never living up to your responsibilities by refusing to make it up to them and the program. Sound unfair?? Remember, its a choice that you have made. I would love to have even an OPPORTUNITY to be able to do so. Sounds harsh, but as a man I very much would like the opportunity to take the time to do what you would like to do but I would not ever be allowed to do so. Im sick of this double standard. Its unjust, illogical and a symptom of our society that values motherhood and relegates fatherhood to second class status.
 
sorry guys but i disagree with you on this one. i think women have the right to have children during residency and when on maternity leave, they should not be required to make up the calls. they are on leave, and that would be penalizing that person. i also don't believe that it should be injurious to the other residents. what is done in my hospital at times is that attendings take call to help out with schedules to prevent going over the 80hrs/week rule.
also men have the right to paternity leave, so you can get 'even' there.
i also don't think that if you take vacation you should get penalized for call later.
the whole purpose of vacation/leave is to get away and have some time where you are released from all your hospital duties...even if that means missing call. i don't think it is right how some programs schedule call and vacation. in my medical school, the gen surg program had the policy that you had to do 10 call/month. if you happened to take vacation for 1-2 weeks you still needed to take those 10 calls. i think that is assenine! the program should have ways of dealing with this without having to screw the parent (male or female) or the vacationer.
i think that is what makes a program family friendly or not.
my 2 cents
 
jimdo
you do that the right, most residency programs allow for paternity leave.
 
At the risk of sounding totally stone-age...

I'm a female pursuing general surgery (anxiously awaiting match day) and I really would not appreciate it if I had to take much more frequent call due to someone's maternity or paternity leave. Choosing to be a parent is exactly that- a choice that takes a whole lot more dedication than just time off to bear (or help bear) the child. Until programs start to do something so that maternity/paternity leave does not cause problems for everyone else, it's really not fair to expect others to pick up the slack over your choice.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind covering for someone in uncontrollable circumstances (personal illness, family death, etc.) Maybe a better place for someone who is determined to start a family at a young age is peds, path, or something where one individual not taking call is not going to screw the rest of the residents. I think I am void of a biological clock because I have no desire to reproduce... seems as if I am really in the minority in most places I've seen.
 
I agree absolutely that programs should take more responsability for their maternity leave programs and not make it a "punishment" for their other residents. Most of them don't take it very seriously, so they just ask their chief residents to take care of any sick or maternity leaves (who promptly redistribute calls). I don't think program directors or department chairs ever even think about it. Personally, I had my kid during a year off so I wouldn't have to deal with this bull---- and so I could breast feed without being considered a freak, but I have colleagues who were reprimanded for trying to breast pump a couple of times a day, and overheard other colleagues on several occasions say, "if she thinks she's going to get to spend time with her baby while she's working with me, she's got another thing coming." Isn't anyone else bothered by this?
 
yeah, not being able to do things like breast pump, have the kid stop in to say hello, that is ridiculous. i absolutely agree there. just think it is unfair to ask the other residents to cover for you, and i also would be a bit upset if i was working and somebody got a ridiculous amount of time off to have a baby.

it would be nice if the programs did have something in place that gave mom plenty of time to have a baby and get settled, or give dad some time to get comfortable and settled with a new baby without punishing the other residents. but i don't think that is often the case...and even so, it would be a bit upsetting to me if i was taking call q3 and someone got out of 3 months of it...i would love to have three months no call, but i don't wanna get anybody pregnant to do it!

as for the vacation argument...sorry, no dice. vacation is handed out to all residents equally (or should be!). therefore, you all cover for each other and then someone covers for you. in a maternity deal, you do all the covering, and when do you get paid back? leaves have no such reciprocity, and if the fellow residents cover for you, you owe it to them.

in the unfortunate circumstance where the other residents do have to cover maternity leave out of their own time ,decency would dictate that mom returns the favor. if you are planning on having a child during residency, make sure you find a very child freindly program, or be prepared to cover for yourself. that is only fair to your fellow residents!
 
Just for the record--a month of maternity leave is no vacation! A newborn infant needs feeding every 2 hours on the dot. There is no break from this. I've never felt so tired in my life.
 
At the risk of sounding rude... the fact of the matter is that it really is not someone else's concern or responsibility for your or my desire/"right" of parenthood or how much work maternity or its leave can be. (No disrespect intended) I do not doubt the difficulty and I tremendously respect parenthood. It is something that is vitally important to most of us in our lives! But in reality, it is really not anyone's responsibility to cover for the choice someone else has made. And its just that, A CHOICE. When we CHOOSE, we do so out of responsibility and can not expect others to "pay the price" for our choice. What ever happened to responsibility? Is it now the duty of others to pick up my slack when my child is born? And if I am fortunate enough for them to do so and help me at a very important time, how can I in any good conscience have EXPECTED them to do so simply because I have a "right" to the decision I made? Seems awfully inconsiderate, irresponsible, absurd and rude to colleagues. Worse yet, its that kind of thinking that may lead to a bad example for the newborn child down the road.
 
I cannot believe some of the comments made re: this post. No one should have to put their lives entirely on hold for residency: man or woman. That's why a lot of you are calling for the "80-hr work week", isn't it? So parents can go home to see spouses and children. And single folks can go home to see cats or dogs or just sleep in their own bed.

A woman has the right to maternity leave as well as a man having the right to paternity leave. Some of you sound like relics before the feminist movement. I am not saying that people should go crazy and have like 3 kids during residency, but who in their right mind would do that. Someone mentioned a woman gettting 3 months off, which is ridiculous. No program would do that. You are exagerating and being an insensitive jerk-off.

That being said, if you know that having children is possibly in your future and possibly doing residency, find a family-friendly program. Many programs will try to rearrange your schedule so that you are in a call-free month during the last month of pregnancy. Other programs have enough residents, so that if one person needs time off for any reason it does not heavily burden other residents. Believe me, no woman wants her fellow collegues to suffer. But pregnancies happen. Should these woman get an abortion, so you aren't called in to do jeopardy call.

For those of you who posted the asinine comments: Most women think about balancing family and medicine from day one. We know that sacrifices must be made. It influences where we go to residency and what field we go into. We know that we aren't superwomen. But we are women.

For the guy who says he has children and understands, let your wife read your comments. I am sure she was not overjoyed to play full-time parent while you studied for boards or were doing q3 call. Everyone makes sacrifices. Maybe you feel this way because you haven't been the one making those sacrifices. One day your kid will be sick and hopefully your colleagues won't be as callous as you and grumble while you are sitting at that child's bedside.

By no means, should any program give women "special treatment," just basic human kindness.

PediaSure
 
The prior post was nothing but a tired argument from someone with an obvious feminist agenda. No one is advocating an abortion so that we as men can avoid call. It is equally absurd to suggest that we as men are somehow obligated to fill in for a woman who becomes pregnant. Youre absolutley right though when you say that we should not put our lives on hold for medicine. My point is simple, my life will be put on hold when a pregnant woman EXPECTS me to cover for her even though it is a CHOICE in which I have had nothing to say. My life then becomes altered dramatically. Has anyone considered that if I cover for someone who is pregnant, when my turn comes along to support my wife an child during pregnancy, it would be that former pregant colleague who likely would be unwilling to "repay the favor"? I can hear the excuses now..."I need to spend time with my family now, and I can't help you even though you put your whole life on hold to help me out. "I deserve to be with my family" they may say. "I will not put my life on hold for medicine, and anyone who disagrees with me is anti-woman and spiteful" may be another comment. I have no problem helping people, I do so whenever I can, and enjoy doing it. Its simply this holier than thou, Im entitled because Im a woman garbage that I hear in this forum that is deeply disturbing to me. YOU CHOOSE, if you cant handle making a choice, dont expect the rest of us to make your life easier because of some self perceived, hypocritical "right". If you want a family, perhaps you should set your priorities straight. Which is more important because despite what you hear in society, you cant likely have it all. Im sorry, but choose your priorities. When I have a child and you have a newborn baby at home, will you be willing to sacrifice then to help me?? Doubtful. Excuses will fly. Im sure. But what do I know, Im just another of those women hating, anti-feminist freaks who isnt in touch with reality and is not willing to give up my life and personal fulfillment so that someone else (man or woman) can enjoy theirs. Sorry, I dont intend to pick up after you when expected to do so. If you ask nicely and are willing to take mine someday in return, then Im likely to help.
 
handygirl, I give you credit for making it work out and wish you luck. I'd like to add that one of my good friends is a rads resident who had a baby during medical school and she's absolutely outstanding- great teacher, hard worker, very intelligent; so it can work out quite well.

I think the "feminist/family-oriented" efforts out there have backfired for some of us. It seems to me that there is an assumption out there that all women automatically want children and to raise a family- in other words, I feel female candidates may be seen as a burden to the program in some of the more time intensive things like surgery. When in fact, I for one have purposely chosen not to get married and start a family because I love what I do and have no desire to have children. I hope not all programs hold these prejudices.

I do agree that if you want a family, checking into programs that will work with you to give call-free months at the end of your pregnancy (or your spouses for the guys) is a great idea. I see that happening in things like IM, peds, rads, path, but not in things like general surgery because there are usually no call free months. I won't place judgement on anyone else's decisions but I do think that programs should fashion maternity/paternity leave so that it does not punish other residents who choose not to have families.

BTW I've actually been asked more often to cover for men who are dealing with starting famillies than women. Perhaps it's due to my choice of specialty.
 
You know, one of my colleagues took several months off, with an even longer period of being back at work but free from call obligations, due to a medical issue. When he came back, we (the residents) had a meeting, discussed the issue, then went to our program director to ask that the resident NOT be required to make up the lost call, despite the mandates of our department (which, ironically, were written ENTIRELY with the concept of maternity leave in mind).

We felt that it would simply be a superhuman obligation that no one should be required to attempt. Ten surgery calls a month is physically and emotionally brutal as it is - and truthfully, our demanding schedule had a great deal to do with how and why this resident needed a leave of absence in the first place. I have little doubt that this resident would not have finished the program if we had handled this otherwise.

On the other hand, when we had our most recent pregnant resident (in IM), she went to 8 1/2 months working all clinical obligations without complaints or excuses. When it got to a point where it was literally physically impossible for her to remain on her feet for 36 straight hours, she asked if she could be excused from call. She went on to deliver, took her month off, and came back to a heavier call schedule than she'd ever had in her life.

How would you feel if your wife recovered from a difficult birth, went back to work emotionally and physically depleted after four weeks, and found herself with 12 calls that month? At a time when just barely getting by felt like the hardest thing in the world to do. When the two of you were struggling to understand and adjust; leaving you at home to deal with all the demands of a new infant?

You know, women don't have babies, families have babies. And furthermore, they SHOULD. When medical training absorbs anywhere from 11 to 16 years of your early adult life, expecting people to not bear children during that time is completely unrealistic. Policies which are essentially prohibitions on pursuing and nurturing your private relationships are unhealthy, unreasonable, and ought not to be defended by any rational person. And, like it or not, ACGME will put a quick halt to demands which would result in a resident working excessive hours in any case. But more than that, it's just decent and ethical to have reasonable protection of family rights.
 
Womansurg--that was beautifully said. I'm sorry that I touched a nerve here, but I do feel that medicine (and most glaringly, medical education) has not dealt with the physical, social, and emotional realities of starting families. Those physical realities are more real for women, but valid for men as well. It's just so ironic that we work in such a technologically advanced field which is so benevolent towards humanity, yet is so archaically cruel to its fellow practitioners.

Amelie--sorry you had to see all of this, but these are realities you might have to face both in residency (some fields more than others) and in practice. Hopefully change is afoot (let's hope so, graduate medical education hasn't changed much in 75 years!), but until then, you must make very informed choices and do what is right for you (medicine will never make those choices for you).
 
Womansurg,

You make some good and valid points. I agree with your emphasis on family and share that ideal. I congratulate you on a well thought and expressed set of views.
However, my qualm lies when somebody expects me to do something for them simply because of a perceived right to do it. From a man's perspective, I cannot know the rigor of childbirth firsthand. Consequently, I have a great deal of respect for those who choose to go through it and become pregnant. It is unfortunate in our society that women can be treated poorly and as second class when it comes to child rearing. But from my chair it appears as though the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. As a man, we are now "supposed" to support everything that female activisits preach or else we are dubbed as egotists, chauvinists and anti-woman/anti-family. On the contrary, I am neither and am quite pro-family/woman. But as men, we are constantly sent conflicting messages. First we are to remain as providers and as partners in the marriage/child raising process but are quickly and repeatedly told that our role is not as important as the wife/mother and that we should focus on our work in that we are not capable of the prior. You have all hearrd it, many of you have said it. "that damn insensitive man just doesnt get it. He doesnt have a clue." How unfair of a thing to say let alone believe. I offer that if we dont "get it" then perhaps you havent told us what you want or maybe dont know yourselves. We are not mind readers nor should we have to read your "signals".
Then, once we do go back to the role of provider, we are told that we are insensitive for neglecting the needs of our partners despite being either directly or indirectly told that we are incapable and basically unimportant (or at least as important as the mother). So... we are constantly jumping from foot to foot not knowing our role and feeling as though we are not really that important to the process. Then on this board to basically be told to shut up, accept the fact that we have to cover for female colleagues who are pregnant who are not even our wives and to not object. If we do object, suddenly all of that namecalling comes back. Some kind of self-entitlement superiority complex has crept into popular feminist thought that relegates the man to second class status. Sounds kinda like what you ladies dont want for yourselves doesnt it? Sounds like an unfair discriminatory practice to me.
Many of you have said that paternity leave is important..how many of you actually believe that it is of EQUAL importance to maternity leave? I would hazard to guess very few.
I hope that those of you who fit into this category reexamine your perspectives. I hear alot about how men should be more sensitive to your needs, but do you really allow us to be?? Most of us are willing and interested in doing so but in the same way you dont want to be told your not an equal partner, neither do we. Im happy to help those who are pregnant during residency. Just drop the entitled, superior and arrogant tone and Ill probably volunteer to do it before you ask.
 
interesting responses.

i wonder if switching to an 80 hour work week is going to make it even tougher? before at least programs were heavily front loaded so that by the end you could make up calls and take maternity leave. now essentially what is happening is that young residents who put their time in will get totally screwed in that as senior residents they will take up the slack from switching to the 80 hour system. the incoming residents will benefit early on from less call, but will make it up with more call as seniors, which makes it harder to take maternity leave and such.
 
thanks to all those that responded with thoughts, opinions, and comments. i do have an additional question about the entire "family" issue? are there any of you out there who plan to begin having children upon completion of residency in order to avoid all of the physical and emotional rigor as well as inconvenience to colleagues. personally i feel as though waiting until after residency would work better for myself......30 or 31 is plenty of time right? (at least i hope so)
 
In private practice you will also have the added pressure to prove yourself the first few years in order to make partner. Hopefully your group is one that values family life and does not prey upon its employees/associates.
 
Jimdo--no one has used any "anti-male" language in this thread (although I believe you have used the term "feminist" many times), nor is this a "battle of the sexes" issue. The whole point is: residents should not be pitted against each other when issues of illness and family leave arise. Training programs obviously don't want to spend any time addressing this issue, so they just pass it on to residents who are already paranoid about the time commitments they are being asked to make. These residents, obviously don't have the resources to deal with this in a fair manner. I don't belittle any man's need to take time to be with a newborn baby--you are right, in this day and age, we should take fatherhood more seriously. But I don't think you appreciate the physical toll having a baby takes. Nor do you appreciate the time commitment and practicalities of breastfeeding (not to get gross). It is impossible for a woman to have a child and pretend that "nothing happened." How would you feel if your wife wasn't allowed to breastfeed due to work constraints?
 
Amelie--mandownunder is right--being in practice does not get rid of all of the issues being discussed (I have heard a few horror stories from fellow residents who have finished). The caveat being that you have a little more control over the practice you join.
 
I do NOT support anything that doesnt "allow" a woman to breastfeed her child, nor do I support a program that is unsympathetic to the needs of a family. My qualm probably is less apparent than may seem. I simply am opposed to an entitlement mentality and expectation of others to compensate for my needs when they are not directly involved.
I cannot understand the rigor of labor, nor can I adequately appreciate the fatigue it involves. But women are built with the ability to handle this type of physical stress, men are not. In the same way, men are built to handle physical stresses that women are not able to handle as well. I intend not to be sexist but it is physiologic and anatomic that we are suited better for different things. There are many things for which I could say as a man that I would be "entitled" to due to stressors, and that others should pick up the pieces for my entitlement, but society does not allow me to do this. Why should we do it for child rearing then? Now I believe we SHOULD DO SO, but remain committed to the need for fairness and a single standard being applied to both sexes for the uniques stresses/challenges that we face. There are issues that men face that are comparable to us as labor may be to you. First of all, believe it or not, Im certain that our wives in labor and a new baby at home is just as stressful for men, albeit it a different manner from a different perspective. Sounds weird and impossible, but there are times in which we need to be able to support a spouse, attend to an ill loved one, fight a disease etc. All the while we are still expected to tough it out?? I dont intend to complain, but is this fair that we do not value the man's role at home as much as the woman's role at home? That is my point, one against the double standard and the sense of entitlement that has crept in through the agenda originally put forth by the feminist movement in regard to pregnancy issues.
 
Originally posted by amelie04
thanks to all those that responded with thoughts, opinions, and comments. i do have an additional question about the entire "family" issue? are there any of you out there who plan to begin having children upon completion of residency in order to avoid all of the physical and emotional rigor as well as inconvenience to colleagues. personally i feel as though waiting until after residency would work better for myself......30 or 31 is plenty of time right? (at least i hope so)
Click to expand...
my wife did. several of her residency mates did as well.
it's a complicated issue, but i would hope you would have the baby at the time when it seemed right for you. there is never really a great time. after you finish residency, you will be responsible to your group whom you will be partners with for much longe than your residency class mates (if you are lucky). after a couple of years, you will go to a productivity formula of some sort, so while you can take time off, you will feel it directly in your pocketbook. so your partners may pressure you to come back asap if they are feeling it too.
 
Interesting points being brought up....I truly like the idea of a residency finding attendings to cover for residents. Could you tell me which places do that???

I disagree with applying a single standard to both men and women: we are different. I, as a man, cannot get pregnant, cannot go through labor, and cannot breast feed. I agree with having a double standard and having a longer maternity leave compared to paternity leave. It is easier to replace the husband (with help from parents, in-laws, hired help) than it is to replace the mother once she goes back to work. I can't imagine what the stress of working 80hrs/wk plus making up calls would do on a mother's breast milk production! (assuming she chooses to breastfeed). While the added 6 weeks divided amongst the residents is quite a lot of extra call, I would gladly do it for any woman who becomes pregnant in my residency. Put this in perspective: having a child is a major major life event (for both men and women). The amount of work either parent has to put in the first months is tremendous. The added few calls cannot compare. Ideally, we will become smarter and realize there is nothing wrong with working less hours and seeing less during residency. I would gladly choose to make my residency a year longer if I had to work 20-25% less per week.

Amelie04: as for when to have kids, I agree with prior comments. The way our society if structured, where workaholism is encouraged, there will never be a good time. One fact we do know, the earlier you have kids the better it is in terms of genetic abnormalities, fertility, etc...So, my suggestion is to just do it when you feel you'll have some help and support.
Dani
 
Do most of you know the requirements of most residency programs? Do you know that the max most programs will allow is 4 weeks maternity leave and 2 weeks paternity leave. Spread out over medium-large residency program that means 1-2 extra calls per person if it has not been rescheduled for that person to take leave in a non-call month. Why are you opposed to this? How would this drastically affect your life? Some of You guys (and girls) are being overly dramatic and it sounds as if you have a chip on your shoulder.

As I wrote in a previous post, no one (man or woman) wants to overly burden their collegues. Most residents would be glad to do you a favor in return. You speak of others having a "high and mighty tone," but saying that you will "probably" return that favor is the same thing.

I do not have a feminist agenda (my post was directed at the men AND women of the stone age), but I do believe that future mothers and fathers should not put their lives on hold. "I'll have the baby after med school. Well, I'll wait until after residency. No, I'll wait until I have been with the group for 5 years."

Amelie, there is no perfect time. Just look for a family-friendly program. If the residency that youu are after is not deemed as family-friendly, talk with men and women in that field and ask their opinion. In some places, a woman will be deemed as "not pulling her own weight," if she takes time out for family. Sad, but true. Consider the expense of getting a nanny or doing residency near family that would be willing to help.

The fact of the matter is, comments such as these posted on the board reflect people with no sense of teamwork and comraderie. At one program I interviewed at an intern was called off of a cush elective month to fill-in for another intern with a sick grandmother. She put it perfectly when she said, "It sucks being called in, but it's good to know that this system is in place if I ever need it."
 
I was really surprised to read some of the comments by the residents here. Why are you blaming the woman for having her baby instead of the residency program for inflexibility? Do you think women really want to be making other residents pick up the slack while they are at home? They are not just relaxing and eating bon bons you know. Recovering from childbirth is not a piece of cake you know, without even bringing in things like c-sections. Sure, women's bodies were "built to handle childbirth", but were they built to handle 80-120 hours per week right afterwards? With extra call piled on top of that?

I've really been noticing that people in the US have a really punitive concept of woman's career and family. It's like a sin to have a child, because you and only you are burdening the work force with your time consuming child. And forcing others to work harder all because you *dare* to be thinking of having a family. How the hell are children supposed to get here otherwise? Immaculate conception? Surrogate motherhood? Maybe aspiring women surgeons can just do that, so they won't be bothering the almighty team with the pesky problem of pregnancy, labor and childbirth.

With more and more women becoming physicians, I certainly hope that residency programs design maternity leave policies that take into account that women actually will be having children, and assign adequate coverage so the rest of the group isn't overwhelmed.

And while I certainly agree that paternity leave is important (and would like to see this better enforced as well), the fact is that women need time to physically adjust from having a child, as well as adjusting to breastfeeding.

End rant.
 
this has got to be an interesting thread...i do think a lot of people agree, but don't even know it...what i think we agree on:
1. women should have the right to have a child during residency with the full support of the program
2. the implementation of this right should not affect the other residents in the program's call schedules to significantly (other methods of coverage should be in place)
3. both men and women deserve leave for having children
4. covering for a mom-to-be would not be to much to be asked, on a limited basis

it seems like the problem is in the expectation that if someone wants a baby others MUST cover for them. i would disagree here. if you want a baby, you are responsible for making it happen. go to a freindly program, work something out or whatever. might not be the easiest thing in the world for you, but if you approach it like a reasonable human, it should work out. womansurg had a great example of how residents cooperating can solve the problem. maybe you will have to make up a shift or two, maybe not. such is life. this is your choice, and if the situation is not perfect then you have to accept some responsibility. if some jackass in the program does not WANT to cover for you, even if you ARE perpetuating the species, it does not seem fair to force him/her to cover without returning the favor.

we can all get along! just a matter of being reasonable, not forcing your views, or desire to have a family on others, and making sure that these issues are resolved on a hospital level, not just left up to the residents. if that happens than it seems like mom and the other residents both get screwed.
 
i guess i am confused why you think that makeup calls need to be done in a way which is so punitive. why don't you space them out and make them up one per month. how about before you deliver, you do some of them. if you know you plan to get pregnant next year, how about picking some calls up early. how about doing some of them 1 year out.
of course, that doesn't help surprise pregnancies, but hopefully people in the medical field know that there are things that can be done to avoid pregnancy. 😉

some of the posters above kill me. life is unfair! me me me my baby my family. when it is suggested that everyone do the same # of calls, that somehow seems unfair to them?

i have yet to see the individual who after birth of the child have less occassions to ask for small favors-cover me for two hours, or four hours, or i can't get here until such and such time. why not d your best to minimize the effect of your family life on your colleagues by doing the appropriate call?

in most cases i have seen, residency mates have been more than happy to cover for people with unexpected absences. i think that's a different scenario than maternity leave though. during my residency we had 1 resident get mugged and had severe injuries necessitating a loss of 6 months. everyone pitched in no one complained, but the resident did 'make up the calls', although by the time this individual was able to make up the calls, many of the people who pitched in the most had graduated.
 
These days some women want it all. They want the career, the family, and leisure time... Somewhere along the way, "modern" women were sold this bill of goods... that they CAN have it all.

In my opinion, women who are most interested in a family should opt for a career other than medicine. If you are a woman who values a family highest, why on earth would you pick a field as demanding as medicine anyway? You're just stacking the deck against yourself. The fact is that it has nothing to do with chauvinistic male physicians. It just has to do with the fact that being a doctor is probably one of the most rigorous, demanding jobs there is. Family-first women: use your heads!

That said, if you're a woman who places career first, then go for it!

I get sick and tired of hearing women whine about how hard it is to manage a family while being a physician. I have a newsflash for y'all... IT'S HARD FOR MEN TOO! Do I need to start citing dicorce rates, or telling you about how many f***ed up doctor's kids there are out there. If I had a nickel for every time I heard the son of a doctor say "my daddy never came to my baseball games" I'd have no student debt.

When I was a first year, a very well-known surgeon told me to be very careful picking a wife. He said to pick a woman who will understand that your patients are you family too. He said to pick a wife who will be devoted, and understanding... Now, it makes a whole lot more sense than it did then. And best of all, it applies to female doctors too... pick up a husband who might not mind being Mr. Mom...
 
In all fairness, there really has not been ANY whining on this thread--the only thing being discussed here is how to give women 4 measly weeks off in order to nurse a newborn--something that every other industry in this country has managed to do and something which is a third of the time of the Family and Medical Leave Act. The backlash posts here are really frightening (geez-I haven't heard the word "feminist agenda" since I was in college!). This is not 1975! Since when is having children the equivalent of taking a month's vacation to Bermuda in the eyes of your colleagues. To the angry men on this forum (far angrier than the women, I might add): you will likely never have to worry about when to have children nor how to pull off the logistics of infant care while working. 90% of the married men have children in my program. Among the married women? Maybe around 30%. The reason? It's logistically too hard. Is this equitable? I personally don't think so, but obviously you disagree. Hopefully your wives won't be in the same boat.
 
I do agree that there is a conflicting issue of where in society *is* the woman's place? Housewives work is often undervalued, yet women are often resented at the workplace. I think family issues at work are not exclusively due to women, but men play a pretty big role in it as well.

My issue I guess is a little bit different. I don't want to be married or have kids; my interests are in what I do and I clearly put that first. I'm not placing judgement on other peoples decisions (something different works for all of us.) My miff is that because a person is single doesn't mean their free time is of no value. One of my single resident friends got a nasty virus that involved lots of vomiting and they gave her h#ll for missing ONE day, saying it was "weak" where it was seen perfectly acceptable when the male resident on the same team took a day off because his spouses' uncle was sick. Not saying that he SHOULDN'T have the day off, but why was it such a big deal to cover for her when she was having a hard time?

Also, holidays are a big thing for me. I've seen single people getting the shaft on Christmas and New Year- just because we opt NOT to have kids doesn't mean that we are void of people like our parents, brothers, and sisters that we want to spend time with.

My thing is I'd definitely cover for someone who was in trouble and I have several times already. No problem. But I do have a problem with it when it is assumed that my time is of no value and it is an expectation that I take crappy shifts/schedules because I don't choose to create a "family."
 
Originally posted by Foxxy Cleopatra
I do agree that there is a conflicting issue of where in society *is* the woman's place? Housewives work is often undervalued, yet women are often resented at the workplace. I think family issues at work are not exclusively due to women, but men play a pretty big role in it as well.

My issue I guess is a little bit different. I don't want to be married or have kids; my interests are in what I do and I clearly put that first. I'm not placing judgement on other peoples decisions (something different works for all of us.) My miff is that because a person is single doesn't mean their free time is of no value. One of my single resident friends got a nasty virus that involved lots of vomiting and they gave her h#ll for missing ONE day, saying it was "weak" where it was seen perfectly acceptable when the male resident on the same team took a day off because his spouses' uncle was sick. Not saying that he SHOULDN'T have the day off, but why was it such a big deal to cover for her when she was having a hard time?

Also, holidays are a big thing for me. I've seen single people getting the shaft on Christmas and New Year- just because we opt NOT to have kids doesn't mean that we are void of people like our parents, brothers, and sisters that we want to spend time with.

My thing is I'd definitely cover for someone who was in trouble and I have several times already. No problem. But I do have a problem with it when it is assumed that my time is of no value and it is an expectation that I take crappy shifts/schedules because I don't choose to create a "family."
Click to expand...

if you are asking for fairness, you have come to the wrong place.
i got put on thanksgiving and christmas the first year, and then the second year too. i figured it was just my turn to do those things, but then i realized-hey 3 year residency with 100 residents. 4 people on call per night? wtf? it turns out everyone else requested off except me, so i got screwed for assuming it would be doled out fairly and not requesting it off. (you know the old i need to go somewhere dec 28 [and we have q3 call], not so stupid as i need christmas and ny's eve off.)
ymmv.
 
As I've said before--important issues in the lives of residents are left to other, harried residents to enact since program directors, chairmen, hospitals, etc. don't care enough to intervene. Foxxy Cleopatra is right in that the holidays of single residents should not be devalued (in my program holidays seem to be assigned by the russian roulette approach--I've had to work Thanksgiving day four years in a row). These issues deserve to be taken seriously (we tend to forget we are adults who serve an important role in medical care--hospitals get more out of us if we feel devalued) and will never be dealt with in a fair manner until someone objective with authority steps up to the plate to come up with equitable policies. Until then, expect to negotiate your holidays, leaves, illnesses with someone who doesn't want to spend more than five minutes thinking about it and who (in my case) may be several years younger than you.
 
I have never posted on this forum but this time, I think I will. I was active duty Army for six years and had both of my children while active duty. The military does give some time off (I think it was four-six weeks) but once that was over, we where back to do the same things we had previously being doing. No exceptions were made because I just had a child. I even had to go to war! right after my first child was born, she was barely one year old. Yes, childbirth does take a toll on you, but dang it is not that hard. As women we have to realize that most of the times we do *choose* when to have a child. We need to plan accordingly and not expect that once we have a child things will change at work. Medicine, just like the military is very demanding and if you have a family, well, sometimes the job will have to come first. No one asked me if I wanted to go to war, I joined, so I had to go period. I am just using this as an example that hey, you chose medicine and it does require a lot of hours so plan to have a family knowing that the hours are still there when you come back. And no, women cannot have it all. Let us be realistic is not possible to be Suzy Homemaker and work 80 hours per week. Something will give at some point or the other, choices will have to be made. I am choosing to apply for medical school now, that my kids are older and much more self-sufficient. If you choose to have your kids now, that is fine but then women should not complain/whine about how hard it is to balance both (not that anyone posting here did this), well duh. Life is not fair, but we do make choices, I made mine to join the military and hey the sent me off the gulf war regarldess of how many kids I had. So guess what? I had to suck it up and move on. Try telling your commander that hey, I just had a baby, stop the war, I cannot go although I know that you need me! You know it is expectations to be treated differently that have given us females a bad rep often times. Yes, we should have time for childbirth and to recuperate, but after that it is back to normal. Look at the past times when females had babies by the bushel and then would work in the field, now that was stamina. Cheers.
 
I am intrigued--what posts here contain women whining about not being able to have it all? I am a surgical resident and know very well what personal and family sacrifices you have to make to work in this field. I have never shirked responsability so I could be with my husband, and have given plenty of my male colleagues time here and there to spend on their anniversaries, at their kids' baptisms and bris's, etc. The only think being discussed here is the ability to take four weeks off after giving birth! Look at the response that set off! Clearly there are still some issues with women in the workplace . . .
 
No, no no. I did write on my post that no one here had complained, please go back and see for yourself. I have often times listened to many women complain in a resentful way about issues mentioned here. Some women (not us here of course) do expect a lot, they want the best of both worlds, and that is just not very realistic. It is so very difficult to balance family life with a demaning job. And I am not saying that we cannot do both, but just that both facets will not be 100% perfect. It is unrealistic expectations that sometimes sets other people off.
 
Perhaps many of us seem like "angry men" who are "far angrier than the women" because we have been told repeatedly that we are the cause of the ills of society and that we are to blame for all unfairness that exists in the workplace. We are "male chauvinists" and "anti-woman/anti-family" if we choose to disagree with what a woman may want. Add to that the double standard that applies to men in that we are expected to suck it up and do what is best for someone else's family issues despite an inability to tend to our own. Now Ill say it again... I have no problem helping out someone in need. I want to do so.. But the EXPECTATION, the double standard and sense of entitlement is disturbing to me.

By the way, does it really end after the delivery? If one has the 4 weeks off as you suggest (which I support under prior arrangement) and you do get the time, what happens 6 months after birth? Or 2 years? I suspect there would be all kind of "I need to spend more time with my baby" or "I have kids now and my priorities have changed" and "Who are YOU to tell me that I need to spend time away from my family" issues. "Youre a male chauvinist and are anti-woman/anti-family". All the while, a commitment you have made is neglected and others suffer for it. It just is not right. As men we will NEVER be able to claim the same rationales albeit ones that are equally important to us. CHOOSE your priorities. CHOOSE your timing carefully. Of course you should be able to have families, but we are responsible adults who must make decisions with all things kept in mind and perspective. Why shouldnt you be inconvenienced if I am? Do you deserve it more? No.
 
Dear Amelie,

You have started an interesting and important thread. I do think a medical career and family are possible. I have 2 children and will graduate from med school this May. Yeah! There are many options for physicians who feel their career is only part of who they are. I loved surgery but would never choose this speciality for residency. I admire people like womansurg and foxy cleopatra who can make that committment. During interviews last month I indentified family friendly programs. These community programs may limit my fellowship options but I need balance. As a practicing physician there are also options. I know several happy hospitalists who work 4 days a week. Good Luck Amelie!

Rachael
 
Wow. I have to admit I never expected to elicit such a huge response. I visit the forum eagerly each day to read the new posts. It's good to hear all sides of the "story", and it is also refreshing to know that there are some people who can manage a balance in their lives.....I hope I am one of them. Since I am still an undergrad it is very difficult for me to imagine what I will want or what my life will be like ten years down the road. So much can change over that period of time and I want more than anything to make an informed decision and the "right" decision for myself.

At this point I am struggling because I feel like I am going to cheat myself out of something either way. If I pursue another health-related career, a part of me will always wonder "what could have been", while I if I choose medicine and end up having a poor quality of life with my family, I will resent my career and wonder what my so called "goals" have amounted to.

I have always been a perfectionist and I know I can't settle for performin as a mediocre physician or a mediocre wife, mother, daughter, friend etc. So now I am faced with the task of maximizing the aspects of my life that I value the most........if onlye that were as easy as pie!
 
Very difficult to do. For me it is the most difficult area of medicine. Its taken a long time for me to realize my true priorities. While medicine is certainly a good and noble profession, in the end it boils down to being a job. Whereas, I have not yet begun a family of my own, when that does happen, medicine will take a back seat. Its just not that important. Be the best you can be at everything you do, but decide what is most impotyant to you and place your priorities there.
 
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