Advice?

[smallbutmighty]

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Hi everyone! I'm a current pre-med and I'm trying to decide whether or not I should apply MD/DO this coming cycle or the next. I plan to take the MCAT this spring. My main reason for waiting is that if I wait until June 2021 then I have more time to show an upward trend in my GPA. If I apply this coming cycle then my cGPA will be about 3.4 and sGPA 3.2. Only reason my GPA isn't at 3.6 or higher is because I decided to take OChem sequence in the summer (I'm stupid I know) and it totally brought down my GPA. I'm currently retaking Orgo and it looks like I'll get an A or A+. I have good EC's and great LOR's - I'm just worried about my GPA holding me back. Thoughts?

 

[Cornfed101]

What is your trend? break it down by year

 

[Whysoez]

Hi everyone! I'm a current pre-med and I'm trying to decide whether or not I should apply MD/DO this coming cycle or the next. I plan to take the MCAT this spring. My main reason for waiting is that if I wait until June 2021 then I have more time to show an upward trend in my GPA. If I apply this coming cycle then my cGPA will be about 3.4 and sGPA 3.2. Only reason my GPA isn't at 3.6 or higher is because I decided to take OChem sequence in the summer (I'm stupid I know) and it totally brought down my GPA. I'm currently retaking Orgo and it looks like I'll get an A or A+. I have good EC's and great LOR's - I'm just worried about my GPA holding me back. Thoughts?

Are you still an undergrad? If so then just finish your degree and focus on raise your gpa.

 

[Goro]

Hi everyone! I'm a current pre-med and I'm trying to decide whether or not I should apply MD/DO this coming cycle or the next. I plan to take the MCAT this spring. My main reason for waiting is that if I wait until June 2021 then I have more time to show an upward trend in my GPA. If I apply this coming cycle then my cGPA will be about 3.4 and sGPA 3.2. Only reason my GPA isn't at 3.6 or higher is because I decided to take OChem sequence in the summer (I'm stupid I know) and it totally brought down my GPA. I'm currently retaking Orgo and it looks like I'll get an A or A+. I have good EC's and great LOR's - I'm just worried about my GPA holding me back. Thoughts?

Unless you have a massive rising GPA trend, your stats are lethal for MD. And meh for DO.

 

[DocOrBust2019]

Unless you have a massive rising GPA trend, your stats are lethal for MD. And meh for DO.

Is it the sGPA that is the biggest concern for OP?

 

[samosamosa]

I applied with a 3.3 and 522 this year, and like you I also retook ochem and a few other classes. I've been accepted into multiple DO schools this year despite my GPA. I think you should focus on maintaining your grades right now, and smash that MCAT in the spring. If you get a high score I think that'll offset your GPA and you'll have a good shot at DO! 🙂 Especially if you have a rising GPA trend. I'd say it's worth applying to your state MDs as well.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I applied with a 3.3 and 522 this year, and like you I also retook ochem and a few other classes. I've been accepted into multiple DO schools this year despite my GPA. I think you should focus on maintaining your grades right now, and smash that MCAT in the spring. If you get a high score I think that'll offset your GPA and you'll have a good shot at DO! 🙂 Especially if you have a rising GPA trend. I'd say it's worth applying to your state MDs as well.

If you have a 522 mcat, you should really do SMP—>MD

 

[DocOrBust2019]

If you have a 522 mcat, you should really do SMP—>MD

I don't know that a SMP should be necessary with a 522. It's hard to imagine not getting a few MD acceptances.

Ultimately though, if someone applied DO and have acceptances I don't think there's any way anyone should pass on them. SMP->MD is deferring two years of max earning potential as well as adding unnecessary debt. It's very possible they can do whatever residency they'd like anyways despite the longer odds.

 

[Kardio]

I don't know that a SMP should be necessary with a 522. It's hard to imagine not getting a few MD acceptances.

It's not hard to imagine. 40% of people with >517 and 3.2-3.4 are not accepted at MD schools. Some percentage (my guess, a large one) of the 60% who are accepted with those stats will have done an SMP.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I don't know that a SMP should be necessary with a 522. It's hard to imagine not getting a few MD acceptances.

Ultimately though, if someone applied DO and have acceptances I don't think there's any way anyone should pass on them. SMP->MD is deferring two years of max earning potential as well as adding unnecessary debt. It's very possible they can do whatever residency they'd like anyways despite the longer odds.

The bolded is wrong.

if accepted next year into an smp linked to an MD school, it’s only one year lost for better career opportunities.

 

[DocOrBust2019]

The bolded is wrong.

if accepted next year into an smp linked to an MD school, it’s only one year lost for better career opportunities.

DOs get into every single specialty. This is a fact. The odds are lower for certain specialties and much lower for a few. This is also a fact. The bolded is not wrong.

~$250,000 lost + ~$50,000 more in debt is not insignificant. Especially if the person already has a pretty good idea of their desired specialty and it's something that DOs match pretty consistently like EM.

Someone who can get 99th percentile on the MCAT can probably figure out a way to be one of the DO students who can do whatever specialty they want. There are no guarantees in medicine. People who go to Harvard can still end up in family med.

 

[Ho0v-man]

DOs get into every single specialty. This is a fact. The odds are lower for certain specialties and much lower for a few. This is also a fact. The bolded is not wrong.

~$250,000 lost + ~$50,000 more in debt is not insignificant. Especially if the person already has a pretty good idea of their desired specialty and it's something that DOs match pretty consistently like EM.

Someone who can get 99th percentile on the MCAT can probably figure out a way to be one of the DO students who can do whatever specialty they want. There are no guarantees in medicine. People who go to Harvard can still end up in family med.

IMGs also get into every specialty. This is a fact. But you would recommend the Caribbean schools to anyone? You also said “residency” not “specialty”. Some residencies even in non competitive fields will never take DOs.

Your point about money is fair. But if that person wants derm or a surgical sub or just academic IM in a competitive location being a DO severely limits you. A problem with premeds looking at match lists is they cherry pick the 2-3 that match insanely well and don’t acknowledge that those are some of the best DO students in the country.

If there are no guarantees in medicine, then isn’t it actually more outlandish to suggest that as a DO student you’ll match extremely well despite the inherent obstacles? Please remember that to a lot of places a 50th percentile step 1 MD will be ranked higher than an 85th percentile DO. Your argument is nonsense.

I might have made similar arguments when I was premed as well. But now that I’m looking at programs and realizing that my current reach programs would be safeties if the letters after my name were different, I know better. Being an MD student makes life waaay easy by comparison.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

 

[DocOrBust2019]

IMGs also get into every specialty. This is a fact. But you would recommend the Caribbean schools to anyone? You also said “residency” not “specialty”. Some residencies even in non competitive fields will never take DOs.

Your point about money is fair. But if that person wants derm or a surgical sub or just academic IM in a competitive location being a DO severely limits you. A problem with premeds looking at match lists is they cherry pick the 2-3 that match insanely well and don’t acknowledge that those are some of the best DO students in the country.

If there are no guarantees in medicine, then isn’t it actually more outlandish to suggest that as a DO student you’ll match extremely well despite the inherent obstacles? Please remember that to a lot of places a 50th percentile step 1 MD will be ranked higher than an 85th percentile DO. Your argument is nonsense.

I might have made similar arguments when I was premed as well. But now that I’m looking at programs and realizing that my current reach programs would be safeties if the letters after my name were different, I know better. Being an MD student makes life waaay easy by comparison.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

Huge difference between DO and Carribean schools for obvious reasons. DO schools won't arbitrarily kick you out and leave you saddled with debt without a degree. If the Carribean schools weren't known for predatory practice, people wouldn't be so staunchly against the Carribean. A life as a family med doctor isn't the worst thing in the world by a long shot.

I respect your opinion but disagree. Best of luck with respect to matching!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

DOs get into every single specialty. This is a fact. The odds are lower for certain specialties and much lower for a few. This is also a fact. The bolded is not wrong.

It is wrong. Period. You will not be able to do any residency you want coming from a DO school, and your chances at entire fields are extremely hampered. You can literally have a perfect app as a DO and still not get a competitive specialty, and even in non-competitive fields there are programs that will straight up throw your app in the trash regardless of that 260 and 10 pubs. That same app on an MD? Yes they can do whatever residency they want.

People who go to Harvard can still end up in family med.

Also wrong. The people who struggle at Harvard land IM at BWH (have you looked at their match lists, go pick out the people who struggled and get back to me).... nobody "ends up in FM" from Harvard.

 

[Cornfed101]

IMGs also get into every specialty. This is a fact. But you would recommend the Caribbean schools to anyone? You also said “residency” not “specialty”. Some residencies even in non competitive fields will never take DOs.

Your point about money is fair. But if that person wants derm or a surgical sub or just academic IM in a competitive location being a DO severely limits you. A problem with premeds looking at match lists is they cherry pick the 2-3 that match insanely well and don’t acknowledge that those are some of the best DO students in the country.

If there are no guarantees in medicine, then isn’t it actually more outlandish to suggest that as a DO student you’ll match extremely well despite the inherent obstacles? Please remember that to a lot of places a 50th percentile step 1 MD will be ranked higher than an 85th percentile DO. Your argument is nonsense.

I might have made similar arguments when I was premed as well. But now that I’m looking at programs and realizing that my current reach programs would be safeties if the letters after my name were different, I know better. Being an MD student makes life waaay easy by comparison.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

you just have to weigh the risks and make the decision that makes the most sense for you. I work with a DO ophthalmologist, and I know it is definitely possible, but he was #1 in his class at DMU.

if you get both MD and DO then you should take the MD, but I wouldn’t personally wait another year if I only got DO. It depends on your situation. I’m 30 with 2 kids. I’m not gonna wait another year, and if some doors are much smaller (or closed) that’s ok. You just have to be comfortable with that reality and work your a** harder than ever to make up the difference if you want something competitive.

 

[Ho0v-man]

you just have to weigh the risks and make the decision that makes the most sense for you. I work with a DO ophthalmologist, and I know it is definitely possible, but he was #1 in his class at DMU.

if you get both MD and DO then you should take the MD, but I wouldn’t personally wait another year if I only got DO. It depends on your situation. I’m 30 with 2 kids. I’m not gonna wait another year, and if some doors are much smaller (or closed) that’s ok. You just have to be comfortable with that reality and work your a** harder than ever to make up the difference if you want something competitive.

And I get that and totally understand your point. But folks like you and me are the minority here. The vast majority are single sub 26 y/o who just didn’t quite make the MD cut. Those people need to realize that there are real and hard limitations to this path that can’t be overcome by merely working your *** off. Working your *** off is the baseline level of performance.

I think 5-10 years ago this would have been a good point. But with the current influx of med students, you need every advantage. Someone with a mediocre gpa and a 504 should just go DO. Someone with a weak gpa and Ivy League mcat should do an smp. performing slightly above average at an MD school affords one more opportunities than being in the 90th percentile of all DO students.

 

[Kardio]

In this 3.3/520+ scenario, the cost of waiting to matriculate MD has to be weighed against the career limitations of going DO. It’s a personal decision someone has to make - but it’s silly to pretend that career limitations don’t exist.

 

[Whysoez]

OP all you can get from this is speculation, your GPA can still rise or fall, and you do not have an MCAT score. Anything can happen to you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You just have to be comfortable with that reality and work your a** harder than ever to make up the difference if you want something competitive.

I agree with the idea that it might depend a bit on personal situation, but this simply isn’t true. Going DO means you will NEVER make up the difference. You are closing a number of doors forever.

You can be perfect on paper and you still won’t land that competitive specialty spot, it happens to DO applicants every year in these specialties where the match rates for DOs are sub 50% (and I’m talking to AOA programs).

This is only going to get worse with the rapidly increasing applicant burden that grows every year.

 

[Cornfed101]

I agree with the idea that it might depend a bit on personal situation, but this simply isn’t true. Going DO means you will NEVER make up the difference. You are closing a number of doors forever.

Maybe if you have your heart set on a specific residency in a specific speciality, but you can specialize in anything you want. You just have to do a lot more work than just beating your cohort at your school. You have to beat out most of the DOs in the country. This would be doing significant research in the field of your choice (difficult for DOs), doing away rotations, killing your boards, etc. How do I know this? I talked to a number of DOs that matched into ophtho. This is what they had to do. It’s not a secret.

I know you are all doom and gloom about being a DO, but the match rate is not 0% in ANY speciality for DO. Don’t be ridiculous. Is it super difficult? Yeah. If you have the choice to go MD, then take it!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I know you are all doom and gloom about being a DO, but the match rate is not 0% in ANY speciality for DO. Don’t be ridiculous. Is it super difficult? Yeah. If you have the choice to go MD, then take it!

I’m not doom and gloom. I’m realistic. To anyone that doesn’t have significant life situations where that extra year absolutely cannot be taken that extra year spent improving one’s app for MD schools is worth it. I am one of those people actually. I am also someone with a wife and kids who could not afford an SMP to get into MD, and my MCAT was well above MD average and I am confident I could have gotten into MD after an SMP.

I’ve also done all those things you are talking about. I have high board scores and more pubs than most MDs applying to ANY specialty. You can do everything right and still not match at all in those specialties, whereas an MD with the same app will have a 98% chance of matching and will likely match very strongly.

Your statement is simply wrong. For the vast majority of applicants they should take the extra year to try and get into an MD school. A DO will essentially close certain doors forever, and that difference cannot be overcome by hard work.

 

[Damson]

It seems like a no-brainer for a 522 premed to be able to kill a smp. But, looking at all the struggles from smp people over at the post-bacc forum - there just isn't a guarantee you'll get the grades you expect. Like goro advises, it's high-risk, only do if your gpa is under 3.0. Just get into med school. However high your mcat, it isn't worth skirting around the edges waiting to get in, as we get older and actually lose attending pay every year, so good move by @samosamosa

 

[Whysoez]

It seems like a no-brainer for a 522 premed to be able to kill a smp. But, looking at all the struggles from smp people over at the post-bacc forum - there just isn't a guarantee you'll get the grades you expect. Like goro advises, it's high-risk, only do if your gpa is under 3.0. Just get into med school. However high your mcat, it isn't worth skirting around the edges waiting to get in, as we get older and actually lose attending pay every year, so good move by @samosamosa

There will always be that "what if" alongside the 522 should you later run into difficulties matching into your desired residencies due to DO bias. The "What if" mentality that comes with a 522 is way bigger than that of a sub-505. Only time will tell whether or not that person will be able to sit still with DO letters behind his name, knowing that he was able to achieve an MCAT score dreamed by many other MDs.

 

[Damson]

There will always be that "what if" alongside the 522 should you later run into difficulties matching into your desired residencies due to DO bias. The "What if" mentality that comes with a 522 is way bigger than that of a sub-505. Only time will tell whether or not that person will be able to sit still with DO letters behind his name, knowing that he was able to achieve an MCAT score dreamed by many other MDs.

I think your comment is true to an extent. It depends on the type of person, their personal biases and goals. Are they stoic, meaning they only worry about things they can control, and don't ruminate over the past and things out of their control? Do they feel proud of being an osteopath, appreciate omt and all that, and will never look back? As a doctor, do they care about stigma and want MD instead of DO after their name? Are they gunning for certain specialties and want to maximize their chances?

So eh, the decision depends on every person's stats and goals. It's good that we're describing those thought processes on here so other premeds can make a more informed decision - I'm considering my cards as well, either attend DO next fall or do a guaranteed admit MD smp and start at 22 or 23 y.o. I don't want to extend my timeline, though.

 

[samosamosa]

To address everyone - I applied both MD and DO hoping for MD, but knowing that I could end up with DO only. I feel my GPA is low enough that many MD schools can easily reject me despite the high MCAT - only 57% of people with my unbalanced stats get even one MD acceptance. I didn't want to sink more money into a SMP, nor reapply to MD, I just want to get on with my life. I'm mostly interested in primary care so DO works fine for me. As some people have said, there is of course a risk that I'll change my mind and want derm or something, at which point the DO will hinder me. However, it's a risk I'm willing to take to save myself more years of premed stress and uncertainty about my future. I will definitely "be able to sit still" knowing I have the privilege of being a doctor that so many people don't get, no matter what specialty I get. 🙂

However, let's not detract from OP's question by debating what I should have done. OP, focus on killing the MCAT so you have the best shot at both DO and MD! You got this.

 

[Damson]

Hi everyone! I'm a current pre-med and I'm trying to decide whether or not I should apply MD/DO this coming cycle or the next. I plan to take the MCAT this spring. My main reason for waiting is that if I wait until June 2021 then I have more time to show an upward trend in my GPA. If I apply this coming cycle then my cGPA will be about 3.4 and sGPA 3.2. Only reason my GPA isn't at 3.6 or higher is because I decided to take OChem sequence in the summer (I'm stupid I know) and it totally brought down my GPA. I'm currently retaking Orgo and it looks like I'll get an A or A+. I have good EC's and great LOR's - I'm just worried about my GPA holding me back. Thoughts?

The path ahead is clear, in my opinion
Raise GPA, don't study for MCAT in the middle of semester. Take one or two gpa-booster science courses every semester that isn't off-putting on your transcript. I'd do the mcat blitz study either beginning of winter break/beginning of summer. Plan it out. You can do dis

 

[Whysoez]

To address everyone - I applied both MD and DO hoping for MD, but knowing that I could end up with DO only. I feel my GPA is low enough that many MD schools can easily reject me despite the high MCAT - only 57% of people with my unbalanced stats get even one MD acceptance. I didn't want to sink more money into a SMP, nor reapply to MD, I just want to get on with my life. I'm mostly interested in primary care so DO works fine for me. As some people have said, there is of course a risk that I'll change my mind and want derm or something, at which point the DO will hinder me. However, it's a risk I'm willing to take to save myself more years of premed stress and uncertainty about my future. I will definitely "be able to sit still" knowing I have the privilege of being a doctor that so many people don't get, no matter what specialty I get. 🙂

However, let's not detract from OP's question by debating what I should have done. OP, focus on killing the MCAT so you have the best shot at both DO and MD! You got this.

As long as you don't become one of those self-hating DOs because you settled, you are good 😉. OP's chance for DO/MD is too uncertain to predict atm, focus on raising GPA and score high on the MCAT will be the things to do now.