advice

[voltron]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Esteemed Colleagues:
I have this "FRIEND" who is non-AOA, average grades first 2 years(mainly pass/high pass), even split on honors/high pass 3rd year with honors in surgery, 229 step I. Given decent letters of rec, some good leadership activity, and pending research what would be your advice regarding 1) taking step II early (he felt he could have done better than he did on step I) and 2) Schools that he would be competetive for. He is also good at street fighter II turbo champion edition, especially with Ken. Should he mention that on his interviews?

 

[doc05]

inasmuch as this forum is anonymous, why not just say that this is you. we all know it's not your friend.

 

[Skylizard]

Originally posted by voltron
...non-AOA, average grades first 2 years(mainly pass/high pass), even split on honors/high pass 3rd year with honors in surgery, 229 step I...decent letters of rec, some good leadership activity, and pending research...

1) taking step II early (he felt he could have done better than he did on step I)
2) Schools that he would be competetive for...

1. The application as presented seems to be sound. Everyone always thinks they will do better on Step II, but when I was in med-school per my advisor the statistics said otherwise. he said Step I was a good indicator how you will do on step II. A score of 229 is just fine for Gsurgery.

2. Things are changing a bit. A good advisor would likely be able to give you some insight as to where you would do well. Your application should do fine for most community, and most community-U-affiliated programs. I suspect your application would be fine with numerous if not most University programs. Again your advisor would be a good resource. I will leave anything further to be provided by more senior residents that may take part in ranking of applicants. Some of them might be able to tell you what their program looks for and how they view an applicant like the one you describe. I too am curious to see what they might say in reply to your question #2.

 

[voltron]

I was joking about the friend thing, thats why i put in quotation marks. You're supposed to read the post out loud and use quotation fingers when you get to that part, its funnier that way I hear. I am concerned primarily with academic place, my advisor and m4s I've talked to said I would be competetive for stronger mid-tier academic programs which is fine with me. I just wanted some different views on it from people that don't go to my school or know me personally or know how strikingly chiseled my features are (Some people say I look like a younger version of Patrick Stewart). I think i can do well on step2 based on my shelf exams this year, they've all been over 90%, so I think if I study hard, i can do well, but maybe I'm blowing smoke up my own as*.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Your USMLE I score is high enough to get you an interview at most academic programs, and the fact that you honored surgery will definetly help.

I'd like to know what you mean by "pending research"? Does that mean you have a research article submitted and waiting for acceptance by a journal or are you in the process of gathering data/writing up the paper?

And definetly play up the fact you excell at Street Fighter II or any other video game...it lets them know you have good hand-eye coordination and may be a budding laparoscopic surgeon. 😉

 

[triathlete411]

The only school where you might encounter a problem with that USMLE Score is the University of Michigan, which had a cut-off of 230 this past year. All other schools, of the list that I applied, look at other factors in addition to scores.

 

[voltron]

pending research means that I'm working/nagging a resident who is doing some research her intern year. Not very fun or promising for a pub or even a paper ready for a review by the time I interview. I have attempted to ***** myself out to as many surgeons as possible, but they are so busy that its hard to get something going. When you say 230 cutoff, is it computerized? I mean will they really jack me for 1 lousy point, or will they be willing to give me that 1 point knowing that I probably should have guessed B intead of C.

 

[Skylizard]

Originally posted by voltron
...When you say 230 cutoff, is it computerized? I mean will they really jack me for 1 lousy point, or will they be willing to give me that 1 point ...

It just depends on if it is a ERAS system filter they are using. There are computer filters that will automatically ~block/reject your application based on certain parameters. "people" would likely not even see your application to even give you the benefit of the doubt over that 1-5 point issue. Some programs use the filters to the hilt and some use it as a first pass tool and then take a quick glance at some of the rejected apps. I suggest you talk with your Med-school surgery department program coordinator and ask how they do it and they can likely explain these details better. This might give you an idea how other programs might do it.

 

[voltron]

That just seem outrageous to me. One of my roomies is AOA, all honors 3rd year, 20+ research pubs, and a 228 step 1. So this will keep him out of top programs in surgery?

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Originally posted by voltron
That just seem outrageous to me. One of my roomies is AOA, all honors 3rd year, 20+ research pubs, and a 228 step 1. So this will keep him out of top programs in surgery?

I encountered one place out of the >20 to which I applied (a small univ. program, actually) that outright stated that they had a Step 1 cutoff of 215 and step 2 of 220. Like triathelete said, some may have cutoffs but many do not and take plenty of other things into consideration.

I wouldn't let any one factor in your application stop you. I had friends who were average (in that I refer to board scores around the mean, no outstanding experience or research) who obtained interviews at top-notch places. On the contrary, some strong applicants were denied interviews at similar institutions. It's definitely a bit of a crapshot (you'll get some and be denied some), so apply to the programs which interest you and you may just get an interview. And don't let it get your down when you receive a rejection- I didn't feel that it had much consistency.

good luck

 

[Skylizard]

Originally posted by voltron
That just seem outrageous to me. One of my roomies is AOA, all honors 3rd year, 20+ research pubs, and a 228 step 1. So this will keep him out of top programs in surgery?

It depends on:
1. how the applied to program uses filters in their application evaluation process
2. How the applicant deals with rejection. Some programs will auto filter you out. The applicant can sometimes get the filter overidden so to speak by having a a dean or surgery PD at ther med-school telephone the PD on their behalf. Assuming the scenario you have provided above is true, your friend will likely have no difficulty overcoming any automated filters. Remember, each applicant is different. We can come up with extremes on how applicants would not pass a programs computer filter...i.e. my friend has a Nobel prize in genetics but only 212 on his USMLE. Filters are out there and programs use them as they choose. Do not become indignant, just know what your application means and what it would require to secure the interviews you want.

Outrageous or not, each program looks at applicants the way they feel serves them best. That is just how it is. How a program uses filters and other tools will change year to year based on numerous factors not the least of which will be 1. how they did in the matchg the previous year and 2. what the trend in number and quality of applicants happens to be during any certain ERAS season.

 

[jollygood]

I am a senior resident. From my experience, barring any outright profound negative in your application, your Step 1 score should not be the stumbling block at all for most university programs for g-surg. Some university programs (mine) have even taken foreign grads because of lack of interest from applicants, and regardless you should be ranked higher than a foreign grad. Subspecialties are a different story.

 

[voltron]

thanks for all the replies everyone. Jollygood, what school would you recommend I apply to in the east coast and midwest areas? I know its a stupid question, but just a general idea since you know whats up.

 

[jollygood]

That's not a stupid question....Actually, I would not limit your applications. The worst that can happen is they send you a rejection letter outright, and worse things can happen in life, so don't let that get you down. You just won't know if you had a chance, regardless of what someone says unless you apply since it's not specifically the "program" that matters, rather it is the attendings reviewing your application that matters. Different people are struck by different aspects of an application making it very difficult to predict who might offer you an interview. Nonetheless, your Step 1 score as you present it is solid and puts you at the above average applicant status, so you should have no problem with G-surg. Apply to high, mid and a few low tiered for the hell of it. You should be able to hit mid or higher, I'm pretty sure. Apply to all that you are interested in. Specifically, I can try to tell you what not to waste your time on not because you won't get in, but because it would not be worth getting in:

In the east:

stay away from Duke-although changing overall in character from malignant program, seems to still have the impression of a hard-core training system though original chair who brought this perception upon Duke (Sebastian) is gone.

Apply everywhere else your heart desires

In the midwest:

stay away from Univ of Chicago-I've been a resident here for many years and made a big mistake coming here. You can read all about our problems on the thread, "gen surg programs in Chicago"

DO not forget to apply to: Northwestern, Rush (probably the best program-resident friendly-in the midwest and you have a solid chance here), and Univ of Illinois, Wash Univ-St Louis

In general, if you can hit bigger university programs, that will be better for you, especially if you want to go for academia. However, as many of my resident friends at the Univ of Chicago have experienced, unless the administration is enthusiatically supporting you for post grad positions, you actually end up doing worse.

Good luck.

 

[voltron]

Makes sense jollygood. I'm actually from the chicago area originally so I wouldn't mind staying there at all. After judging from your post as well as what I've heard from other, I think NW is my top choice. Can you tell me alittle about surg-onc, colorectal, and especially MIGI fellowships? How tough are they to get into, and what should I do to be competetive for them? What exactly do surg-oncs and MIGI do? Is MIGI the hot new thing, or is it a phase? And I hate to ask it, but what is lifestyle/pay like for these 3 fellowships?

 

[jollygood]

Personally, surg-onc is a great field to go into because of the diversity and number of cases. Of course, you can't go wrong with the other fellowships you mention. I would not worry too much yet about fellowships, because you have a lot of time during residency to experience the different fields, and make a sound decision for yourself. The best advice I can give you if you want to be competitive for fellowships is two-fold:
1) publish, publish, publish
2) make sure you end up in a program that actually supports you when you go to apply for fellowships, because that can actually mean the world.
The fellowships you mention are not particularly demanding, unfortunately the pay is not at all great but depends on where you go (45 to 60+K). The pay will be different by the time you're ready for a fellowship. Don't worry about the pay because it all tends to pay off when you're done and g-surg alone nowadays is really not worth it. If you want to stay in Chicago, NW is an excellent choice. I would love to say better things about my place but I can't find great things to say. All the other programs in Chicago will give you the best chance of getting what you want (mine may bite you in the back) after you're done with residency. good luck

 

[Skylizard]

Originally posted by jollygood
...The fellowships you mention are not particularly demanding, unfortunately the pay is not at all great but depends on where you go (45 to 60+K)...

Just to clarify for all reading, you are talking about the pay during fellowship if I am not mistaken?

 

[jollygood]

yes, skylizard, the pay for fellowships