Affected by DO-associated SDN negativity

[Medbound40]

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You can't just ignore reality and say DOs get equivalent third year training to MDs, because it simply isn't true. Some of them do, many of them don't. No amount of motivation can teach you how to function in an inpatient environment when you're only doing outpatient, it just isn't ****ing possible. Does that mean you can't succeed with bad rotations? No. Does it mean your performance is likely to be inferior to your MD counterparts come auditions and electives fourth year? Hell yes.

This issue is talked about because it needs to be. This isn't discrimination or hate, this is the truth. Ignoring it doesn't fix it. The COCA won't tighten up standards unless their students start going unmatched because DO education is viewed as inferior to MD education in regard to third year. No amount of burying your head in the sand will fix things, nor will your self-interested desire to quash such conversation serve the profession well in any way whatsoever. Being a DO is a wonderful thing, and I'm damn proud of my education. Saying that it is not up to LCME standards is simply a fact, however, and one that I would like to rectify in the future precisely because I care about my profession. Calling for an end of conversation on the issue will result in it never being resolved.

I don't believe I suggested ending the conversation. I merely stated it was unproductive to suggest, on the whole, that DO is flat out inferior. This is not true. Does COCA need to get up to speed with LCME standards? Yes, absolutely. Are all of the DO programs guilty as charged? No, certainly not.

What I have been arguing is that we should put an end to making generalizations about DO as a whole and get more specific about where the discrepancies exist. Rotation quality is not compromised at all DO schools, just some. That inconsistency is definitely a problem, but it does not mean that people can't do their homework to find a good program that will prepare them well to compete with MDs for residency. The example I was using was a case in point. That DO was in fact prepared for their auditions, and continued to prove their worth against their counterparts from that point forward in their career. Truth be told, that individual did not do all of their rotations in a university hospital, yet they came away with solid skills and knowledge that allowed them to excel beyond their competitors, MD and DO alike.

I think we are both in agreement that COCA needs to elevate the standards so that no matter what DO school someone attends, they will be prepared. My initial contention was simply to refute the notion that this is a uniform problem with the DO route and that DOs only succeed because they choose less competitive specialties. The brush is too broad these days, so I advocate for continuing the conversation but changing the focus from generalized characterizations to specific situations. By no means am I suggesting we ignore the issue.

 

[68PGunner]

I've always known about the DO bias and always thought nothing of it because I've done my research and know what I'm getting into. But I have never really experienced the DO bias until yesterday; aside from comments from my parents about how bad DO school is blah blah blah. I've educated them on it fairly well and they've changed their minds a little.

I'm on a waitlist for a school and I asked my PI at my research lab to write me a LOR to help possibly move me off (anything can help at this point). And he flat out said he would not write me a letter for a DO school, but happily write me one for MD. He is one of the most respected surgical oncologists in the world, a fairly educated man. I was pretty shocked honestly.

I'm going to be honest. But from his perspective he probably thinks that he's looking out for you bc DO equals Caribbean, student debt, and no job.

 

[kbeitz]

I've always known about the DO bias and always thought nothing of it because I've done my research and know what I'm getting into. But I have never really experienced the DO bias until yesterday; aside from comments from my parents about how bad DO school is blah blah blah. I've educated them on it fairly well and they've changed their minds a little.

I'm on a waitlist for a school and I asked my PI at my research lab to write me a LOR to help possibly move me off (anything can help at this point). And he flat out said he would not write me a letter for a DO school, but happily write me one for MD. He is one of the most respected surgical oncologists in the world, a fairly educated man. I was pretty shocked honestly.

So they would rather send you to the Caribbean than have a better opportunity to match at a US residency program due to being a DO? Regardless of their relative importance, I'm also fairly certain that the letter would be less effective to get into a DO school than one from an actual DO (bias runs both ways in admissions).

 

[anktheonc]

So they would rather send you to the Caribbean than have a better opportunity to match at a US residency program due to being a DO? Regardless of their relative importance, I'm also fairly certain that the letter would be less effective to get into a DO school than one from an actual DO (bias runs both ways in admissions).

If by 'they' you mean my parents, kinda. My mom thinks Caribbean is a viable option but she doesn't understand fully the residency situation. My father is a double boarded MD out of Cleveland Clinic(IM with GI fellowship) and UF(EM); and has been in hospital admin for about 10 years. Initially he had a huge DO bias but I have reasoned with him and had logical discussions about it and he doesn't hold it anymore. Some DO docs he has hired have been the best and some have been god-awful to the point that 'DO syndrome' is a colloquial phrase in some hospitals.

My PI wants me to wait it out and try for US Allopathic again and just stay at this job until then and I don't really want to do that.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't believe I suggested ending the conversation. I merely stated it was unproductive to suggest, on the whole, that DO is flat out inferior. This is not true. Does COCA need to get up to speed with LCME standards? Yes, absolutely. Are all of the DO programs guilty as charged? No, certainly not.

What I have been arguing is that we should put an end to making generalizations about DO as a whole and get more specific about where the discrepancies exist. Rotation quality is not compromised at all DO schools, just some. That inconsistency is definitely a problem, but it does not mean that people can't do their homework to find a good program that will prepare them well to compete with MDs for residency. The example I was using was a case in point. That DO was in fact prepared for their auditions, and continued to prove their worth against their counterparts from that point forward in their career. Truth be told, that individual did not do all of their rotations in a university hospital, yet they came away with solid skills and knowledge that allowed them to excel beyond their competitors, MD and DO alike.

I think we are both in agreement that COCA needs to elevate the standards so that no matter what DO school someone attends, they will be prepared. My initial contention was simply to refute the notion that this is a uniform problem with the DO route and that DOs only succeed because they choose less competitive specialties. The brush is too broad these days, so I advocate for continuing the conversation but changing the focus from generalized characterizations to specific situations. By no means am I suggesting we ignore the issue.

The problem, again, is that even some of the better schools have a few subpar rotations, and that the majority of DO schools have a decent number of subpar rotations. Your friend at least rotated in a hospital. That gave him the opportunity to do well because he had the chance to learn inpatient skills. That does not, in any way, elaborate upon how someone who had no inpatient experience during third year aside from surgery and Ob/Gyn, might be able to function as part of an inpatient team successfully in fourth year. It also neglects the fact that PDs do not have the time to learn which DO schools are good or bad. They just don't. They've got students applying from hundreds of schools all over the world, so they need to be broad. It doesn't matter how you or I feel about individual DO schools, the only opinions that matter are those of PDs, and they need big categories like "DO," "Top 20," "IMG," and "FMG." That's reality.

You can certainly have a great experience and come out well prepared from a community hospital. That isn't my problem. My problem is with the schools out there that don't even give their students that opportunity on an acceptable level.

 

[Mad Jack]

If by 'they' you mean my parents, kinda. My mom thinks Caribbean is a viable option but she doesn't understand fully the residency situation. My father is a double boarded MD out of Cleveland Clinic(IM with GI fellowship) and UF(EM); and has been in hospital admin for about 10 years. Initially he had a huge DO bias but I have reasoned with him and had logical discussions about it and he doesn't hold it anymore. Some DO docs he has hired have been the best and some have been god-awful to the point that 'DO syndrome' is a colloquial phrase in some hospitals.

My PI wants me to wait it out and try for US Allopathic again and just stay at this job until then and I don't really want to do that.

Do what you want, you're an adult. Unless you're like, secretly twelve, in which case, wait

The Carib route has been closing for years, just show him the ECFMG match table and that should be all the convincing she needs.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

There's a "match rates by country" section. Easy enough.

 

[anktheonc]

Do what you want, you're an adult. Unless you're like, secretly twelve, in which case, wait

The Carib route has been closing for years, just show him the ECFMG match table and that should be all the convincing she needs.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

There's a "match rates by country" section. Easy enough.

Oh I know all of that. I am just explaining their thinking. Mom is stubborn but who gives a ****. PI is awesome but I'll be out of here in a couple months anyway with my name hopefully on some big papers so he can suck my balls. Just give me one acceptance and I'll take it and be the best doctor I can

 

[NurWollen]

If by 'they' you mean my parents, kinda. My mom thinks Caribbean is a viable option but she doesn't understand fully the residency situation. My father is a double boarded MD out of Cleveland Clinic(IM with GI fellowship) and UF(EM); and has been in hospital admin for about 10 years. Initially he had a huge DO bias but I have reasoned with him and had logical discussions about it and he doesn't hold it anymore. Some DO docs he has hired have been the best and some have been god-awful to the point that 'DO syndrome' is a colloquial phrase in some hospitals.

My PI wants me to wait it out and try for US Allopathic again and just stay at this job until then and I don't really want to do that.

Tell us more about DO syndrome. What are the signs and symptoms? What is the clinical presentation? What is the next best step in management?

I kid, but I am legitimately curious. Every MD I've ever talked to has said DOs at the resident level were indistinguishable from the MDs.

 

[anktheonc]

Tell us more about DO syndrome. What are the signs and symptoms? What is the clinical presentation? What is the next best step in management?

I kid, but I am legitimately curious. Every MD I've ever talked to has said DOs at the resident level were indistinguishable from the MDs.

This is not at a teaching hospital, so the physicians are much older and don't come in contact with residents as often. So they are still holding onto/thinking about the admissions stats for DO's at the time when they applied, which was crazy low. Now it's a little more even. But from what I have gathered, symptoms don't really have to much to do with competency as a physician. But more on the lines of always feeling like they have to prove themselves as a DO. And generally being annoying in a team-based environment by bringing up that they went to a DO school because it was different.

my experience is n = 2 hospitals. both non-teaching

 

[Psai]

Says the guy with a lower MCAT and GPA than I had 😉 Imma crush you on the boards too

I dont recall posting my undergrad scores but good luck with that. You'll need it.

I honestly don't care about the prestige factor if that's your definition. However, the prestige of a specialty is usually connected competitiveness which is measured by the lifestyle and money.

Yes, ortho and derm used to be considered terrible fields. Every specialty goes in cycles. I pity the fool that goes into a field just for the money especially if things turn for the worst when the person becomes a bc doc.

Prestige is what the public thinks of a specialty. Competitiveness is measured by how many people want to go into a field vs how many soots there are. Lifestyle and money play into it but it's really more about fit. Are your board scores and grades good enough? Out of the things you can go into, which can you see yourself doing?

I agree with some of your other points, to a degree. And yes, the bias still exists due to some MDs with chips on their shoulders. Yet in terms of the above, this person outperformed MD counterparts who couldn't make it at the "bottom of the barrel", despite their supposedly superior MD degree. They didn't achieve their success because it was less competitive. Whether or not this is an accurate assessment, they were still a DO who out-competed other MD applicants, which goes to show that it is the individual that must prove their worth through action, not their degree. What you said kind of suggests that a top tier MD school hired an inferior DO physician to teach their MD students because their sub-specialty is sub-par. Maybe I'm reading too far into it, so my apologies if that is not what you intended. That would be concerning for MD students though, if it were the truth, but I highly doubt that is the case. The artificial barriers are breaking down, slowly but surely, making it more about merit than title.

Regardless of competitiveness of the specialty, they earned their place against other MD and DO applicants. It doesn't really have anything to do with being an MD/DO or competitiveness. They didn't achieve it because it was less competitive; they achieved it by working hard and proving their abilities as a trained physician. In fact, they were the first DO to be admitted to Duke's clinical ID fellowship program (this was some years ago now), which is an indication of the slowly dissolving bias. I can also say they were actively met with doubt by their peers based solely on their credential, until their MD colleagues saw what they were capable of. The MDs ended up commenting that they were kicking some butt, which is a start at recognition and breaking down the stigma. Some residencies, such as PM&R, regularly accept DO applicants due to their generally superior training in musculoskeletal medicine. Top PM&R residencies, such as Stanford's, regularly accept DO applicants for very few spots.

I would guess that due to the misinformed bias, DOs probably have to work harder than their MD counterparts to prove themselves in any specialty, even in the absence of any apparent shortcomings. I think it will raise the bar for everyone, which is a good thing. Nowadays, application to medical schools, MD and DO alike, is so competitive that the caliber of candidates is rising all around. People with stats that would have landed them in MD programs 20-years ago are now being denied simply due to the sheer volume of applicants vs. seats available. Even the average stats for matriculating students at some DO schools are higher than several of the MD programs out there. Times are changing, so we need to get past the argument of MD vs. DO because its premise is losing validity.

Why would mds have a chip on their shoulder? Who are the ones that are constantly trying to assert equality if not superiority? The degree itself is not superior. It's a good surrogate measure just like a top undergrad is for college students. Not every harvard student will be better than every penn state kid but the overall quality is at a different level. There are superstars at every school. But they tend to be the exception, not the rule. If we were to talk about merit, it's very obvious who wins and it has nothing to do with the degree itself which is something you seem to perseverate on.

Also, the do degree was started by an md. They went out of their way to try to create a different profession. If anyone has a chip on their shoulder, it is the do leadership.

There is low interest in pm&r because there is minimal exposure to it. I doubt that many of my classmates even knows that it exists. It's not because of some supposed superior musculoskeletal training lol

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You can't just ignore reality and say DOs get equivalent third year training to MDs, because it simply isn't true. Some of them do, many of them don't. No amount of motivation can teach you how to function in an inpatient environment when you're only doing outpatient, it just isn't ****ing possible. Does that mean you can't succeed with bad rotations? No. Does it mean your performance is likely to be inferior to your MD counterparts come auditions and electives fourth year? Hell yes.

This issue is talked about because it needs to be. This isn't discrimination or hate, this is the truth. Ignoring it doesn't fix it. The COCA won't tighten up standards unless their students start going unmatched because DO education is viewed as inferior to MD education in regard to third year. No amount of burying your head in the sand will fix things, nor will your self-interested desire to quash such conversation serve the profession well in any way whatsoever. Being a DO is a wonderful thing, and I'm damn proud of my education. Saying that it is not up to LCME standards is simply a fact, however, and one that I would like to rectify in the future precisely because I care about my profession. Calling for an end of conversation on the issue will result in it never being resolved.

Despite the fact that there's a perception about not having as high a training as MDs in their 3rd year it seems that despite that the outcomes of DO schools are pretty good. None of the doctors are leaving to especially poorly treat their patients is his point.

I think we do need to improve our 3rd year training. But clearly the major place where people are learning how to be doctors are in their residencies and that it seems that for the most case DOs are entering residencies are doing fine exiting them licensed and ready to practice.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I've always known about the DO bias and always thought nothing of it because I've done my research and know what I'm getting into. But I have never really experienced the DO bias until yesterday; aside from comments from my parents about how bad DO school is blah blah blah. I've educated them on it fairly well and they've changed their minds a little.

I'm on a waitlist for a school and I asked my PI at my research lab to write me a LOR to help possibly move me off (anything can help at this point). And he flat out said he would not write me a letter for a DO school, but happily write me one for MD. He is one of the most respected surgical oncologists in the world, a fairly educated man. I was pretty shocked honestly.

Which is unfortunate. My PI is a world famous pathologist and researcher. To him he considers DOs more than trained, which isn't surprising because pathology is populated by plenty of DOs.

The issue is in fields with little DO presence in which the ppl probably assume it means they're not up to the same level. Though in all truth there are plenty of DO oncologists, my school's department head is an Anderson trained Heme/Oncologist.

 

[group_theory]

If I was a premed reading SDN right now, I would have thought that as a DO I would have no chance to match at the residency that I matched at, matched at the fellowship that I matched, or even worked with my current colleagues (all MDs with resumes that many SDNers would find impressive).

In the current climate, MDs are a dime a dozen compare to DOs. One of the worse residents I ever had was a HMS graduate ... do you think I or the other attendings blamed her severe knowledge deficit on being an MD or being from Harvard or blamed it on the individual? Now if this resident was a DO, chances are the attendings would have blamed it on the individual AND the school AND being a DO. Life's not fair. If you don't want to face the pressure of being the pioneer, then either work at a place with lots of DOs, or don't attend DO school. It's that simple. You know what you're getting into, and you know the battles you are facing. Either overcome the obstacle and impress yourself and others, join the crowd and be happy/content, or take your ball and go elsewhere to play. But once you start DO school, there's no turning back. You know the challenges that lies ahead.

The AOA/COCA and DO schools have some responsibilities for all of this as well. DO schools should have stronger clinical affiliations. It should offer ward-base for rotations that should be ward base (IM, Surgery, etc). New schools should not open until it has the clinical resources as well as physical resources to accommodate the class size ... which includes a well-rounded experience during clinical years, not just "preceptor based". Current school shouldn't metastasize with new branch campuses in every town. Students should not have find their own rotations unless they want to. Premedical students/prospective students should ask the schools about the clinical rotations, and chances to work with residents during rotations, and if you have to move cross-country and live in a suitcase for 3rd/4th year. Whether you have a brand new building with a smart board, a rock climbing wall, a holographic surgical simulation suite, and a large IMAX theater who watch skype from another campus's lecture means absolutely nothing in the long term. But your clinical years are the foundations that prepares you to be a resident, and residency is your foundation to prepare you to be a physician. Shaky foundation can lead to a very shaky, unstable, and untrustworthy building.

In the near future, older schools, with established rotations, and a strong alumni base, will probably have no problems matching their students at acgme university programs because they have sent students who did well into those programs. The newer schools will be an unknown - and I don't know how their students will do.

 

[IslandStyle808]

People who are hard working and dedicated generally end up in md schools. You guys are living in a fantasy world. MD is not a title, it's a degree. Almost no one goes to a do school for location, it's almost always because they couldn't get into an md school. Any assertions otherwise is disingenuous at best. You guys are engaging in hardcore rationalization in here

What do you want DO students to admit, that they are inferior to MD students? There are a lot who could not get into MD schools and choose DO schools, true. However, there are still are a good chunk of those that choose a DO school for whatever reason, better fit or location. It maybe hard to believe from your point of view, but it is true.

 

[Mad Jack]

I dont recall posting my undergrad scores but good luck with that. You'll need it.



Prestige is what the public thinks of a specialty. Competitiveness is measured by how many people want to go into a field vs how many soots there are. Lifestyle and money play into it but it's really more about fit. Are your board scores and grades good enough? Out of the things you can go into, which can you see yourself doing?



Why would mds have a chip on their shoulder? Who are the ones that are constantly trying to assert equality if not superiority? The degree itself is not superior. It's a good surrogate measure just like a top undergrad is for college students. Not every harvard student will be better than every penn state kid but the overall quality is at a different level. There are superstars at every school. But they tend to be the exception, not the rule. If we were to talk about merit, it's very obvious who wins and it has nothing to do with the degree itself which is something you seem to perseverate on.

Also, the do degree was started by an md. They went out of their way to try to create a different profession. If anyone has a chip on their shoulder, it is the do leadership.

There is low interest in pm&r because there is minimal exposure to it. I doubt that many of my classmates even knows that it exists. It's not because of some supposed superior musculoskeletal training lol

I'll bet I crush your USMLE score. As to whether you have a lower MCAT than me, it's possible yours was higher, but you'd be in a rare 4% of people. Anyway, the overall point is that there's plenty of DOs out there that are more than smart enough to be in MD schools. There's dozens of people in my class in the 30+ range and decent GPAs.

 

[group_theory]

I dont recall posting my undergrad scores but good luck with that. You'll need it.

I'll bet I crush your USMLE score. As to whether you have a lower MCAT than me, it's possible yours was higher, but you'd be in a rare 4% of people. Anyway, the overall point is that there's plenty of DOs out there that are more than smart enough to be in MD schools. There's dozens of people in my class in the 30+ range and decent GPAs.

Both of you, put the rulers down and zip up your pants. No one cares what your MCAT, USMLE, SAT, ACT, Head Circumference, or Mallampati Scores are.

This warning also goes to any poster who feels the need to pick up that ruler.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

People who are hard working and dedicated generally end up in md schools. You guys are living in a fantasy world. MD is not a title, it's a degree. Almost no one goes to a do school for location, it's almost always because they couldn't get into an md school. Any assertions otherwise is disingenuous at best. You guys are engaging in hardcore rationalization in here

Your first sentence here is absolute b.s. By this statement you're implying to D.O. students that if they worked hard and were more dedicated that they would have waltzed into an M.D. institution. There are MANY reasons why students go to D.O. schools. Many are older, many didn't come straight out of college, many have had to work their way through college, many have lived on their own and supported families, and many probably had the credentials to get accepted into 75% of the M.D. schools in the U.S., but were shafted because of where they live and their state of residence.

Your statement about "if you work hard and are dedicated" doesn't work dude. Let's give you an example:

Student A attends their state no-name university and because of the lack of competitive students that want to go into medicine, it is MUCH easier for them to earn an extremely high GPA. They studied for the MCAT and scored 28. They apply to their state MD schools and are accepted because there aren't as many applicants where they live and the average of these schools are low.

Let's compare now:

Student B attends a top tier university that is known to be extremely competitive and cut-throat when it comes to academics. They study all day and all night and even though they bust their a**, their GPA is a 3.5 (which at the podunk university that student A went to would have been a 3.95). They then took the MCAT and score a 31. However, student B lives in a state where all their MD schools have MCAT averages over 32 and GPAs over 3.7.

Student A gets into their state MD school and student B doesn't get accepted. However, if student B lived in the same place as student A, they would have easily been accepted.

Now you're statement is saying that if you work HARD you will get in. There are so many other things that play into this. I understand that the clinical rotations at certain DO schools may not be up to par with the MD, but don't sit here and say that DO students are where they are because they didn't work hard. I know of many students in my class alone that have 35 MCAT's and interviewed at top tier medical schools and were only rejected because they were too young.

 

[Psai]

What do you want DO students to admit, that they are inferior to MD students? There are a lot who could not get into MD schools and choose DO schools, true. However, there are still are a good chunk of those that choose a DO school for whatever reason, better fit or location. It maybe hard to believe from your point of view, but it is true.

No, I just don't want them to think that it's treated the same and that there are some hidden advantages because there aren't. I find it hard to believe that anyone chose a do school for fit or location. I've talked to several dos and only one said that they chose it for location and that they regretted it. I'm not sure if they applied md though. It's not a making a choice if you only had one option in the first place. There are medical schools all over the country and there are way more md than do schools. Is nycom in a better location than the 11 or so md schools in new york? Is pcom better situated than temple, jefferson, penn or drexel? People frequently go across the country to attend school so that argument is not convincing.

Your first sentence here is absolute b.s. By this statement you're implying to D.O. students that if they worked hard and were more dedicated that they would have waltzed into an M.D. institution. There are MANY reasons why students go to D.O. schools. Many are older, many didn't come straight out of college, many have had to work their way through college, many have lived on their own and supported families, and many probably had the credentials to get accepted into 75% of the M.D. schools in the U.S., but were shafted because of where they live and their state of residence.

Your statement about "if you work hard and are dedicated" doesn't work dude.

Now you're statement is saying that if you work HARD you will get in. There are so many other things that play into this. I understand that the clinical rotations at certain DO schools may not be up to par with the MD, but don't sit here and say that DO students are where they are because they didn't work hard. I know of many students in my class alone that have 35 MCAT's and interviewed at top tier medical schools and were only rejected because they were too young.

No, I'm saying that people who have worked hard and achieved things will continue to do so. Just because you're coming from a position where you have to work harder to get to the same place doesn't mean that you will work harder. Plenty of older people and people with families in my school. No one's saying that hard work will necessarily get you anywhere. I'm saying that people with a track record will continue doing what they're doing and that going to a better school is generally a mark that someone did well in the past.

 

[Brorthopedic]

I'll bet I crush your USMLE score. As to whether you have a lower MCAT than me, it's possible yours was higher, but you'd be in a rare 4% of people.

You're such a badass bro

 

[Brorthopedic]

No, I just don't want them to think that it's treated the same and that there are some hidden advantages because there aren't. I find it hard to believe that anyone chose a do school for fit or location. I've talked to several dos and only one said that they chose it for location and that they regretted it. I'm not sure if they applied md though. It's not a making a choice if you only had one option in the first place. There are medical schools all over the country and there are way more md than do schools. Is nycom in a better location than the 11 or so md schools in new york? Is pcom better situated than temple, jefferson, penn or drexel? People frequently go across the country to attend school so that argument is not convincing.

To be fair, I did choose my state DO school over an OOS MD school that I was accepted at because of location and cost. I know others in my class alone that did the same, too. Albeit, it's one of the top DO schools with great match lists, but times are changing man. There are differences between MD and DO, but for the vast majority of graduates (both MD and DO), those differences are minutiae.

 

[WSU_BMS]

As to whether psai has a lower mcat than MINE, it's VERY possible his was higher, since he would be in the common 43% of people.

 

[IslandStyle808]

No, I just don't want them to think that it's treated the same and that there are some hidden advantages because there aren't. I find it hard to believe that anyone chose a do school for fit or location. I've talked to several dos and only one said that they chose it for location and that they regretted it. I'm not sure if they applied md though. It's not a making a choice if you only had one option in the first place. There are medical schools all over the country and there are way more md than do schools. Is nycom in a better location than the 11 or so md schools in new york? Is pcom better situated than temple, jefferson, penn or drexel? People frequently go across the country to attend school so that argument is not convincing.

I don't have a lot of DOs in this area so I can't give very many examples myself. I remember from an interview a while back speaking to a woman whose son went to the local DO school at the airport of this small town. She said her son choose the local DO school over the local MD because he like the environment of the DO school more and being in a small town. She had no reason to tell me her son got accepted to the nearby MD school, so I believe there is truth to the story. There are definitely those out there who have choose DO over MD. They are just in the minority. There are also those who apply over and over again to same MD school just because they want to be near their families (I know of 3 examples of this). They are also in the minority. In the end, these events still happen and not everyone follows the apply broadly formula that SDN states regularly.

 

[Medbound40]

Why would mds have a chip on their shoulder? Who are the ones that are constantly trying to assert equality if not superiority? The degree itself is not superior. It's a good surrogate measure just like a top undergrad is for college students. Not every harvard student will be better than every penn state kid but the overall quality is at a different level. There are superstars at every school. But they tend to be the exception, not the rule. If we were to talk about merit, it's very obvious who wins and it has nothing to do with the degree itself which is something you seem to perseverate on.

Also, the do degree was started by an md. They went out of their way to try to create a different profession. If anyone has a chip on their shoulder, it is the do leadership.

There is low interest in pm&r because there is minimal exposure to it. I doubt that many of my classmates even knows that it exists. It's not because of some supposed superior musculoskeletal training lol

Let's be clear about what I said, before my words get turned into silly putty. 'Some' MDs hold a bias against DOs for no legitimate reason other than what they were groomed to think along the way by others, that MDs are academically superior based on pre-med test scores--just as we often see here on SDN. A simple straight-forward prejudice; if DO is after their name they lose interest, mock it or suggest an inferiority. That's the chip I am talking about. It stinks, but it happens sometimes, we all know that. Same is true for some DOs, but for different reasons, which I don't condone either.

I was actually making the point, very directly and explicitly, that the degree has nothing to do with the ability to succeed; it is the hard work, commitment and dedication of the individual that is responsible for the outcomes.

Whether the undergrad school is a good surrogate measure is certainly open to debate. There is a recent NY Times article on this very topic, whereby top tier, including Ivy League schools, are beginning to change the metrics by which they choose candidates. But as long as we keep thinking the best come from those 'top' feeder schools, we are being prejudice and judgmental toward all others. Not much different than what we're talking about here. And your comment perpetuates the problematic rationale.

The "quality" should be judged independent of the institution. This argument just sounds like an extension of the MD/DO debate based on superficial labels, not actual substance. I know far too many who came from top schools and they couldn't think their way out of a box. Yet I wouldn't blame it on the institution, nor could I credit them for it... . I also know people who came up from rough beginnings, without the high grades or AP classes to create opportunities for them. But they persevered and made it to medical school, law school, business school, etc. and thrived thereafter, despite going to lesser known institutions. It all comes down to hard work and providing opportunity. In this conversation it means getting COCA up to speed so all medical school graduates are prepared for residency. But as Group-Theory points out regarding the HMS grad, that still may not guarantee success.

As for PM&R, I'd rather not assume why it isn't as popular. I will say, that regardless of popularity, it is common sense to derive the understanding that the additional time DO students spend in OMM labs (manipulation aside) offers the opportunity to become more knowledgeable and fluent about biomechanics, neuroanatomy/physiology, etc., which only serves to strengthen ones candidacy for such a program. Again, you are making the same assertion that someone else here made, that DOs are competitive for these residencies because no one else wants them. There's always a reason that excludes merit, right? A DO couldn't possibly have learned a little more about something... that would be absurd to think.? I also know first-hand that DO candidates are in fact appealing to PM&R residency directors for that reason, but they still have to prove themselves like any other applicant, and there's no reason why an MD applicant can't work a little harder to make up the ground.

This entire debate is futile. Are there problems with consistency? Yes! So... where are the gaps and how do we fix them? Why do people insist on pitting themselves against one another? One upping and insulting each other... ?

 

[68PGunner]

Prestige is what the public thinks of a specialty. Competitiveness is measured by how many people want to go into a field vs how many soots there are. Lifestyle and money play into it but it's really more about fit. Are your board scores and grades good enough? Out of the things you can go into, which can you see yourself doing?

That's perfectly fine. I see myself being happy as a physician whether it's family medicine, radiology, PMR, Psy, etc... Don't go on here and start painting people with a broad brush. Time is changing.

Attached is how much I make in a single trade. Don't go on here and tell me that I'm inferior to your MD counterparts, when I can make close to your entire school year tuition in five minutes. I left about 80-100K on the table in this trade by closing my position too quickly despite my initial game plan of holding it until ER or 1 week before ER.

It doesn't even matter what specialty I go into in my case. There's a 99% that I would still make more money than you and work less hours than you regardless of your prestigious specialty.

There's less of a difference between a DO and MD applicant nowadays. I was forced into applying strictly DOs bc of my injuries, work, and family situation. Do you honestly think that my intellectual capacity is less than that of your MD buddies? Get real, bro.

 

[Psai]

Let's be clear about what I said, before my words get turned into silly putty. 'Some' MDs hold a bias against DOs for no legitimate reason other than what they were groomed to think along the way by others, that MDs are academically superior based on pre-med test scores--just as we often see here on SDN. A simple straight-forward prejudice; if DO is after their name they lose interest, mock it or suggest an inferiority. That's the chip I am talking about. It stinks, but it happens sometimes, we all know that. Same is true for some DOs, but for different reasons, which I don't condone either.

I was actually making the point, very directly and explicitly, that the degree has nothing to do with the ability to succeed; it is the hard work, commitment and dedication of the individual that is responsible for the outcomes.

Whether the undergrad school is a good surrogate measure is certainly open to debate. There is a recent NY Times article on this very topic, whereby top tier, including Ivy League schools, are beginning to change the metrics by which they choose candidates. But as long as we keep thinking the best come from those 'top' feeder schools, we are being prejudice and judgmental toward all others. Not much different than what we're talking about here. And your comment perpetuates the problematic rationale.

The "quality" should be judged independent of the institution. This argument just sounds like an extension of the MD/DO debate based on superficial labels, not actual substance. I know far too many who came from top schools and they couldn't think their way out of a box. Yet I wouldn't blame it on the institution, nor could I credit them for it... . I also know people who came up from rough beginnings, without the high grades or AP classes to create opportunities for them. But they persevered and made it to medical school, law school, business school, etc. and thrived thereafter, despite going to lesser known institutions. It all comes down to hard work and providing opportunity. In this conversation it means getting COCA up to speed so all medical school graduates are prepared for residency. But as Group-Theory points out regarding the HMS grad, that still may not guarantee success.

As for PM&R, I'd rather not assume why it isn't as popular. I will say, that regardless of popularity, it is common sense to derive the understanding that the additional time DO students spend in OMM labs (manipulation aside) offers the opportunity to become more knowledgeable and fluent about biomechanics, neuroanatomy/physiology, etc., which only serves to strengthen ones candidacy for such a program. Again, you are making the same assertion that someone else here made, that DOs are competitive for these residencies because no one else wants them. There's always a reason that excludes merit, right? A DO couldn't possibly have learned a little more about something... that would be absurd to think.? I also know first-hand that DO candidates are in fact appealing to PM&R residency directors for that reason, but they still have to prove themselves like any other applicant, and there's no reason why an MD applicant can't work a little harder to make up the ground.

This entire debate is futile. Are there problems with consistency? Yes! So... where are the gaps and how do we fix them? Why do people insist on pitting themselves against one another? One upping and insulting each other... ?

Having a chip on the shoulder is something you use to describe someone who feels some sort of inferiority and is always trying to prove something. For example, when someone sells some stock and posts the picture in an attempt to flash their wealth. What you're describing is a superiority complex which is the opposite. It sucks that some people are assumed to be better than others due to pedigree or whatnot but the reality is that not everyone is the same and people have different strengths and weaknesses. Some people are just better than others, whether they are smarter or work harder or have a nicer personality. MD applicants are not behind DO applicants in anything at baseline and it's bizarre that you would try to make that assertion.

And what makes you think that quality isn't being judged by the individual? There have been many times when I observe a resident and they're bad which makes me wonder if they're from overseas or a do school. They almost invariably are. Whether or not that's affected by recall bias or selection bias or something is up for debate. There have definitely been great residents from the same institutions but they are a noticeable minority. None of our professors or attendings go around grooming their students to be prejudiced against do physicians. That is a very strange belief. You can throw out all the arguments you want against a do bias but the fact is that it exists, there are reasons for it and pretending otherwise won't change anything.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

First paragraph: MD & DOs aren't much different.

Second Paragraph: Most doctors who are bad are either foreign MDs or DOs.


At least Meattornado has some consistency and poise. You're just frankly boring.

 

[Medbound40]

Having a chip on the shoulder is something you use to describe someone who feels some sort of inferiority and is always trying to prove something. For example, when someone sells some stock and posts the picture in an attempt to flash their wealth. What you're describing is a superiority complex which is the opposite. It sucks that some people are assumed to be better than others due to pedigree or whatnot but the reality is that not everyone is the same and people have different strengths and weaknesses. Some people are just better than others, whether they are smarter or work harder or have a nicer personality. MD applicants are not behind DO applicants in anything at baseline and it's bizarre that you would try to make that assertion.

And what makes you think that quality isn't being judged by the individual? There have been many times when I observe a resident and they're bad which makes me wonder if they're from overseas or a do school. They almost invariably are. Whether or not that's affected by recall bias or selection bias or something is up for debate. There have definitely been great residents from the same institutions but they are a noticeable minority. None of our professors or attendings go around grooming their students to be prejudiced against do physicians. That is a very strange belief. You can throw out all the arguments you want against a do bias but the fact is that it exists, there are reasons for it and pretending otherwise won't change anything.

My goodness, pardon my choice of phrasing, Psai. There was a sentiment of grievance I was thinking about when I used the phrase. As if some MDs might feel DOs did not have to meet the same standards yet may practice the same work--an unfair competition and stepping on their territory. But I digress. I'm sorry you couldn't see past that one specific bit of phrasing to understand what I was getting at, which was NOT that MDs are behind DOs, but that DOs are often viewed as inferior. It should be, as you mention, an individual comparison, not one of pertaining to this degree or that. But I said that already.

And no, I didn't state or suggest that your professors or attendings are grooming you to be prejudiced against DO physicians--not at all. It permeates multiple settings, including this one. YOU are doing it now by suggesting that the lesser quality residents are either foreign or DOs, or by stating those who are hard working and dedicated end up going to MD schools. Totally ridiculous. Give everyone a break and get over yourself. Assumptions and generalizations from one person's experience, true or not, is inappropriate and useless.

I'm not sure what you're reading, but I have yet to deny that their is a bias, as subtle or gross as it may be. Quite the contrary. What I have said is that the source of that bias should be identified (which it seems to have been--rotation deficiencies/consistencies) and addressed, rather than making inaccurate generalizations about the entire field of DOs. Do you know how many shotty and neglectful MDs I've met over the past many years? I don't hold it against the profession for a second, I just chalk it up to the type of people it sometimes attracts... . Same applies to DOs, I have no bias when considering the quality and character of a professional.

I don't get why arguing and belittling people is the preference. Your view is n=1. The fact that you can't understand why someone would choose a medical school for its location is an example of that very limited perspective. People have families, own houses, have spouses with careers, etc.. They aren't all able to just pick up and move. Life doesn't work that way for everyone. And for each time, in your small world, you encounter a low quality resident and assume they're foreign or a DO, there are MDs out there who care less about the two letters on their colleagues' coat, and simply recognize them for being quality physicians and surgeons. Your view is myopic, exaggerated and judgmental.

I might argue, at this point in the thread, that MD schools may have some remediations of their own to consider in their criteria for selecting applicants. This is immature, arrogant and unbecoming of a physician.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Can we please end this thread?

 

[Psai]

My goodness, pardon my choice of phrasing, Psai. There was a sentiment of grievance I was thinking about when I used the phrase. As if some MDs might feel DOs did not have to meet the same standards yet may practice the same work--an unfair competition and stepping on their territory. But I digress. I'm sorry you couldn't see past that one specific bit of phrasing to understand what I was getting at, which was NOT that MDs are behind DOs, but that DOs are often viewed as inferior. It should be, as you mention, an individual comparison, not one of pertaining to this degree or that. But I said that already.

And no, I didn't state or suggest that your professors or attendings are grooming you to be prejudiced against DO physicians--not at all. It permeates multiple settings, including this one. YOU are doing it now by suggesting that the lesser quality residents are either foreign or DOs, or by stating those who are hard working and dedicated end up going to MD schools. Totally ridiculous. Give everyone a break and get over yourself. Assumptions and generalizations from one person's experience, true or not, is inappropriate and useless.

I'm not sure what you're reading, but I have yet to deny that their is a bias, as subtle or gross as it may be. Quite the contrary. What I have said is that the source of that bias should be identified (which it seems to have been--rotation deficiencies/consistencies) and addressed, rather than making inaccurate generalizations about the entire field of DOs. Do you know how many shotty and neglectful MDs I've met over the past many years? I don't hold it against the profession for a second, I just chalk it up to the type of people it sometimes attracts... . Same applies to DOs, I have no bias when considering the quality and character of a professional.

I don't get why arguing and belittling people is the preference. Your view is n=1. The fact that you can't understand why someone would choose a medical school for its location is an example of that very limited perspective. People have families, own houses, have spouses with careers, etc.. They aren't all able to just pick up and move. Life doesn't work that way for everyone. And for each time, in your small world, you encounter a low quality resident and assume they're foreign or a DO, there are MDs out there who care less about the two letters on their colleagues' coat, and simply recognize them for being quality physicians and surgeons. Your view is myopic, exaggerated and judgmental.

I might argue, at this point in the thread, that MD schools may have some remediations of their own to consider in their criteria for selecting applicants. This is immature, arrogant and unbecoming of a physician.

Everyone's view is n=1. That doesn't make it any less useful. You can't get a randomized control trial for everything. You can call names if you want but sometimes what you want to believe and what happens in reality aren't the same. Just try not to drink the kool aid for when you actually start school

It's not that it's hard to believe someone would choose a medical school for its location. It's hard to believe that location was the actual reason when someone has a sub-30 mcat for example

 

[Medbound40]

Everyone's view is n=1. That doesn't make it any less useful. You can't get a randomized control trial for everything. You can call names if you want but sometimes what you want to believe and what happens in reality aren't the same. Just try not to drink the kool aid for when you actually start school

Yes, to your previous deleted post. And since I've been a working professional for the past two decades, my n=1 has been repeated a few times over. We're all entitled to our opinion, some come with broader and more diverse experiences than others. But your assertions are part of the problem by perpetuating stereotypes. I wonder, had you made these comments during your med school interview, do you think you would have been accepted? It defies humility. This whole "pedigree", 'privilege' in schooling, 'those who are dedicated and work hard go to MD schools' and 'certain people are better than others' is all rather repulsive (paraphrasing here). But that's only n=1, so a conclusion cannot be drawn. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Everyone's view is n=1. That doesn't make it any less useful. You can't get a randomized control trial for everything. You can call names if you want but sometimes what you want to believe and what happens in reality aren't the same. Just try not to drink the kool aid for when you actually start school

It's not that it's hard to believe someone would choose a medical school for its location. It's hard to believe that location was the actual reason when someone has a sub-30 mcat for example

Then believe the ones that had a sub-30 MCAT and rejected the MD school for the DO one. Or find some who had a 30+ MCAT score and choose a DO school for location. Again, they are in the minority, but I bet they exist.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Screw prestige. And screw this d!ck measuring.

This week, I have been spending nearly 10 hours on campus due to some mandatory activity my school has. I have never felt how valuable time off is until now. I have come to a realization that there's no enough money and prestige on earth to make me happy for working long hours. I now comprehend that success is not a universal term; it is achieving YOUR dreams and what makes you happy. Of course, this doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive to make the best out of every situation you encounter, but you shouldn't kill yourself over achieving goals only to make people think you are successful.

If you ask me, I'd tell you that being successful is being able to make enough money to live and retire comfortably while being able to spend a big portion of your time doing things with your family and loved ones.

 

[Brorthopedic]

Everyone's view is n=1. That doesn't make it any less useful. You can't get a randomized control trial for everything. You can call names if you want but sometimes what you want to believe and what happens in reality aren't the same. Just try not to drink the kool aid for when you actually start school

It's not that it's hard to believe someone would choose a medical school for its location. It's hard to believe that location was the actual reason when someone has a sub-30 mcat for example

I like you, but sometimes you talk out of your ass man. Let's crunch some numbers.

Midwestern Class of 2019 Profiles
-Average Overall GPA: 3.51
-Average Composite MCAT: 30

Last year, 48% of allo applicants who applied with stats in that range were accepted (https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstablea24-4.pdf). There were also a good amount of allo applicants with stats below that average that were also accepted.

That's from a pool of 250 students. It's not hard to believe that some of those matriculates chose DO over MD for personal reasons.

 

[Mad Jack]

I like you, but sometimes you talk out of your ass man. Let's crunch some numbers.

Midwestern Class of 2019 Profiles
-Average Overall GPA: 3.51
-Average Composite MCAT: 30

Last year, 48% of allo applicants who applied with stats in that range were accepted (https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstablea24-4.pdf). There were also a good amount of allo applicants with stats below that average that were also accepted.

That's from a pool of 250 students. It's not hard to believe that some of those matriculates chose DO over MD for personal reasons.

What really seems to separate DO schools from MD schools these days at the borderline is GPA. Utah School of Medicine, for instance, has a 30 average MCAT and a 3.78 average GPA. UNM had an MCAT of 28, GPA of 3.67. Touro-CA had an average MCAT of 30.8, GPA of 3.5. Basically it seems like GPA is becoming more the defining factor for DO applicants than the MCAT. It'll be interesting to see where scores go in the future, but I predict that they'll continue to close in on one another and the lower-to-mid tier MD schools will have stats similar to the higher-to-mid tier DO schools.

 

[Psai]

I like you, but sometimes you talk out of your ass man. Let's crunch some numbers.

Midwestern Class of 2019 Profiles
-Average Overall GPA: 3.51
-Average Composite MCAT: 30

Last year, 48% of allo applicants who applied with stats in that range were accepted (https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstablea24-4.pdf). There were also a good amount of allo applicants with stats below that average that were also accepted.

That's from a pool of 250 students. It's not hard to believe that some of those matriculates chose DO over MD for personal reasons.

You didn't crunch any numbers and that was a complete non sequitur

And you're not really comparing the same thing when one group has grade replacement and the other doesn't

 

[Brorthopedic]

You didn't crunch any numbers and that was a complete non sequitur

And you're not really comparing the same thing when one group has grade replacement and the other doesn't

Fair point, what about the MCAT? You kept using that to justify your remarks. Is it about GPA forgiveness now?

 

[68PGunner]

Having a chip on the shoulder is something you use to describe someone who feels some sort of inferiority and is always trying to prove something. For example, when someone sells some stock and posts the picture in an attempt to flash their wealth. What you're describing is a superiority complex which is the opposite. It sucks that some people are assumed to be better than others due to pedigree or whatnot but the reality is that not everyone is the same and people have different strengths and weaknesses. Some people are just better than others, whether they are smarter or work harder or have a nicer personality. MD applicants are not behind DO applicants in anything at baseline and it's bizarre that you would try to make that assertion.

And what makes you think that quality isn't being judged by the individual? There have been many times when I observe a resident and they're bad which makes me wonder if they're from overseas or a do school. They almost invariably are. Whether or not that's affected by recall bias or selection bias or something is up for debate. There have definitely been great residents from the same institutions but they are a noticeable minority. None of our professors or attendings go around grooming their students to be prejudiced against do physicians. That is a very strange belief. You can throw out all the arguments you want against a do bias but the fact is that it exists, there are reasons for it and pretending otherwise won't change anything.

Nobody is arguing with you about MD students generally being more prepared for residency due to the existing resources. However, you seem to be on here flashing your superiority complex and citing your USMLE scores, GPAs, and MD prestige. I just put you in your place by reminding you that there are existing people that are better than you in all walks of life, whether that is due to experience, intelligence, or money. You seem to be pretty butt hurt about it, considering that I'm going to be a DO. Your MD prestige is just one factor contributing to your success.

FYI, I wasn't born in riches. I created my wealth by myself. Both of my parents are immigrants. I received a full ride to an Ivy League school for undergrad. During college, I worked and saved about $20k by the end of my junior year. I start getting into the business in my senior year, and have been investing in equities ever since that time. I'm very good at processing a huge amount of information, separating the essentials from the garbage, and making quick, good decisions.

I have extreme confidence in my abilities. I'm going to be a DO due to some unfortunate circumstances. It's going to be alright because the real world is based mostly on merits rather than school prestige. I came from prestige, and it didn't matter for me out there due to some of my bad decisions in life. I just have to work a little harder to get where I want to go, if my desired field is extremely competitive at the time.

So, enough of this bs about DO students being inferior to MD students. Both kinds of students are going to be physicians. Instead of diick measuring our stats, we should strive to learn from each other and focus on ways to improve the quality of students coming out of both DO and MD schools.

 

[Psai]

Nobody is arguing with you about MD students generally being more prepared for residency due to the existing resources. However, you seem to be on here flashing your superiority complex and citing your USMLE scores, GPAs, and MD prestige. I just put you in your place by reminding you that there are existing people that are better than you in all walks of life, whether that is due to experience, intelligence, or money. You seem to be pretty butt hurt about it, considering that I'm going to be a DO. Your MD prestige is just one factor contributing to your success.

FYI, I wasn't born in riches. I created my wealth by myself. Both of my parents are immigrants. I received a full ride to an Ivy League school for undergrad. During college, I worked and saved about $20k by the end of my junior year. I start getting into the business in my senior year, and have been investing in equities ever since that time. I'm very good at processing a huge amount of information, separating the essentials from the garbage, and making quick, good decisions.

I have extreme confidence in my abilities. I'm going to be a DO due to some unfortunate circumstances. It's going to be alright because the real world is based mostly on merits rather than school prestige. I came from prestige, and it didn't matter for me out there due to some of my bad decisions in life. I just have to work a little harder to get where I want to go, if my desired field is extremely competitive at the time.

So, enough of this bs about DO students being inferior to MD students. Both kinds of students are going to be physicians. Instead of diick measuring our stats, we should strive to learn from each other and focus on ways to improve the quality of students coming out of both DO and MD schools.

Lol what? I don't know where you're getting any of this

 

[Mad Jack]

Nobody is arguing with you about MD students generally being more prepared for residency due to the existing resources. However, you seem to be on here flashing your superiority complex and citing your USMLE scores, GPAs, and MD prestige. I just put you in your place by reminding you that there are existing people that are better than you in all walks of life, whether that is due to experience, intelligence, or money. You seem to be pretty butt hurt about it, considering that I'm going to be a DO. Your MD prestige is just one factor contributing to your success.

FYI, I wasn't born in riches. I created my wealth by myself. Both of my parents are immigrants. I received a full ride to an Ivy League school for undergrad. During college, I worked and saved about $20k by the end of my junior year. I start getting into the business in my senior year, and have been investing in equities ever since that time. I'm very good at processing a huge amount of information, separating the essentials from the garbage, and making quick, good decisions.

I have extreme confidence in my abilities. I'm going to be a DO due to some unfortunate circumstances. It's going to be alright because the real world is based mostly on merits rather than school prestige. I came from prestige, and it didn't matter for me out there due to some of my bad decisions in life. I just have to work a little harder to get where I want to go, if my desired field is extremely competitive at the time.

So, enough of this bs about DO students being inferior to MD students. Both kinds of students are going to be physicians. Instead of diick measuring our stats, we should strive to learn from each other and focus on ways to improve the quality of students coming out of both DO and MD schools.

The students aren't inferior. The opportunities, however, are. That is a fact.

 

[68PGunner]

The students aren't inferior. The opportunities, however, are. That is a fact.

And nobody is even debating that issue at least the DOs on this thread. Yes, that means that DOs have to work harder especially if they want to go into competitive fields.

 

[68PGunner]

Having a chip on the shoulder is something you use to describe someone who feels some sort of inferiority and is always trying to prove something. For example, when someone sells some stock and posts the picture in an attempt to flash their wealth. What you're describing is a superiority complex which is the opposite. It sucks that some people are assumed to be better than others due to pedigree or whatnot but the reality is that not everyone is the same and people have different strengths and weaknesses. Some people are just better than others, whether they are smarter or work harder or have a nicer personality. MD applicants are not behind DO applicants in anything at baseline and it's bizarre that you would try to make that assertion.

Alright, big guy. You know that you believe DOs are inferior to you and your MD counterparts. Your tone is very clear from your previous msgs. I don't need to dig up your bs and quote every sentences here.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The students aren't inferior. The opportunities, however, are. That is a fact.

I think a lot of it is is undeserved and a lot of it has been defended under the premise that we're not trained well enough to deserve to go to these positions.

But yes, no one is denying that there is an uphill battle for these positions. Psai just wants to remind you that as a DO you'll be a worse doctor than he is straight off the bat because he understands the real details, like how ppl don't choose anything for location or that his patients who hate his guts will find another doctor....

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

...shouldn't you all be studying?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Medbound40]

You didn't crunch any numbers and that was a complete non sequitur

And you're not really comparing the same thing when one group has grade replacement and the other doesn't

Maybe TCOM would be a better example, since TMDSAS doesn't do grade replacement. There are many scenarios, and we can never surely know them all. Applicants I met at TCOM (TX) were predominately from TX and chose to stay in state for cost reasons (cheap schools!)--state regulations also dictate the IS vs OOS matriculate ratio, making it very favorable for IS apps. And although those I spoke to were applying to multiple programs in the state (all MD except TCOM), many didn't care it was a DO program because of the reputation it had throughout the state. The avg MCAT is 28 (yes below 30), with a range of 22-40 / gpa 3.60 in '14 and 24-34 / 3.67 in '15 and a good residency match. Clinical rotations match those of the typical MD program and it receives the most NIH funding of any DO school by about 10-fold, so research is an option. Faculty is both MD, PhD and DO. With top board scores and above average pass rates, there's nothing you're missing by choosing this program over an MD (there are a few lower quality MD programs than this in TX). Now, if such standards were required of all DO programs we wouldn't be having this conversation. There is work to be done, for sure. But it's not quite what some are painting it to be.

I include numbers only to demonstrate that many applicants are perfectly qualified and competitive for MD programs, but choose otherwise for reasons we'll never know. But from the looks of it, it doesn't seem to simply be an issue of sub-30 scoring.

 

[Mad Jack]

...shouldn't you all be studying?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Studying is for noobs.

 

[AlteredScale]

...Clinical rotations match those of the typical MD program and it receives the most NIH funding of any DO school by about 10-fold, so research is an option. Faculty is both MD, PhD and DO. With top board scores and above average pass rates, there's nothing you're missing by choosing this program over an MD (there are a few lower quality MD programs than this in TX). ...

Except that fact that NYP, UCSD, UCSF, UCLA (RR), NYU, MGH, BWH, BMC, JHU, Einstein Montefiore, Icahn, Scripps Mercy/Green, + many others STILL will not accept you simply on the fact of the letters for your medical degree (which sucks...a lot especially in the context of TCOM being a strong Do school comparable to many MD schools). This is on the basis of IM residency and not PM&R, FM, Psych, Path.

One of our students at KCU is doing a Sarnoff Research Fellowship at UMich with the Chair of Emergency Medicine. In spite of this, he still would be unable to do IM at UMich and still has a very small chance of landing EM at UMich (they just took their first DO from VCOM this year however).

EDIT: If any of you saw the part regarding the Baylor-IM DO bias I was informed that is not the case and I stand corrected. My bad.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

...shouldn't you all be studying?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I'm still decompressing tbh. Also endo is boring the crap out of me and I think I'm going to end up just craming it.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Studying is for noobs.

That's true. Screw studying. Party time.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Except that fact that NYP, UCSD, UCSF, UCLA (RR), NYU, MGH, BWH, BMC, JHU, Einstein Montefiore, Icahn, Scripps Mercy/Green, + many others STILL will not accept you simply on the fact of the letters for your medical degree (which sucks...a lot especially in the context of TCOM being a strong Do school comparable to many MD schools).

https://www.bcm.edu/departments/medicine/education/internal-medicine/residents/pgy1

Not a single DO but MD's from the lower tier MD schools in TX like TTU and UTMB.

Yah, strong IM programs aren't going to like DOs. That's the truth. Join the psych train, KCU has send psych residents to pretty much all of these programs 😀.

But on a more serious note, for IM you're going to have to pick your battles and go for places that have taken DOs before, like Gtown, GWU, or etc. And to also honestly look towards the lesser competitive IM fellowships like Rheum, Endo, ID.


But as I said before. You'll never know where you end up until you apply I guess. The ability to match more established programs in IM will be increasing for DOs as time goes on and more and more DOs manage to match.

 

[AlteredScale]

Yah, strong IM programs aren't going to like DOs. That's the truth. Join the psych train, KCU has send psych residents to pretty much all of these programs 😀.

But on a more serious note, for IM you're going to have to pick your battles and go for places that have taken DOs before, like Gtown, GWU, or etc. And to also honestly look towards the lesser competitive IM fellowships like Rheum, Endo, ID.

Yeah, it's pretty insane when you look at any DO match for IM, you'll consistently find that none of them are a university hospitals.

But, of the most palatable routes one can go for a solid path from IM to fellowship is the Cleveland Clinic.