Affirmative Action Again!!!

[daysleeprx]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I just started to read this thread...and 4 posts or so down I think I have read the GAYEST comeback in my life....



Wow. If you're better looking than me, that must mean you're gonna be a better doctor

hahaha...I didn't even notice that. Good catch

 

[jackfibi]

You are all missing the point of AA. You think its unfair that an URM gets in with lower stats. Do think its unfair that blacks have suffered the effects of severe racism and slavery. Do you think its unfair that when a black person walks past you it is ingrained in your social understanding of people to believe that this person should act out their racial identity. One of the first things we notice about people when we meet them is their race and we utilize this to provide clues about who a person is. Can you guess what the first thing most people think when they see a black man walk by them is. I can tell its usually not "I bet he's on his way home to his wife and kids after a hard days work at a good desk job". Most people would think the same thing. Don't you think it's amazing that most people think the same thing without knowing the guy. These thought form our common sense understanding of race and who told us that these thoughts should be our common sense. Not blacks. Do you think thats fair. The government (white elites) dictated the dominant racial meanings and placed themselves at the top and blacks at the bottom and that is absolutely reflected in the way we unconsciously view blacks. So Do you know that the point of AA is to get people who have historically been repressed into a position to have an influence over other young blacks or indians who feel as though there life is already dictated for them. They will be poor, they will steal, they will go to jail. I think it's great that med schools are forced to provide role models for the youth besides basketball stars. Not everyone is athletic but through an education you can succeed. See and heres proof, so and so is a doctor. We need AA to change the common sense understanding of blacks and indians and so on. If some have to suffer and be left out that too bad they deserve it for the oppression they have faced and that is reflected by the way you view a black man sitting next to you on a bus. So go feel sorry for yourself some other time.

 

[SoCalRULES!!!!!]

my point is that lowering the lowering of standards for a physician can have serious repercussions 10 years down the road when that person is called upon to save lives.

What a tool you are.

Emergeny response teams, fireman, and cops save far more lives than your average clinician who manages peoples chronic health problems according to nationally recommended protocols. And they don't even have to go to college.

I hope all the med school slots in the country get filled with URMs with MCATs of 20 and GPAs of 2.8 before a toolish whiner jack-off such as you gets in.

 

[MadameLULU]

the OP is ridiculous.
His posts are so trollish i'm surprised that ppl still genuinely address his questions.

A sample of his posts
"girls dig doctors: is this true"
I'm scared:...scared that no one will accept me"
"I got in!: the celebration begins"
Let's be honest...: If you medicine didn't provide strong financial rewards, would we all be busting our asses right now?
"Japanese girls are...uhum...sexually promiscuous "
"Which specialty makes the most money: Does anyone know where I can find a link to this"
"It's sad to be asian"
"which residency makes the most money: is there a list of some sort"
"schools with a high percentage of asian girls: this is somewhat of a concern"
"this application processing is depressing: give me some comfort please"
"what does DO stand for?"
"MDs have trouble getting girls? "
"do girls flock to M.D.s? "
"losing my girlfriend because I'm a premed "
"Life beyond SDN: I'm wondering what other people do for fun besides staring at this website. I find myself addicted to SDN beyond cure."
"still a virgin?: was wondering what percentage of students entering med. school are virgins. I'm just fruitlessly curious."

And my favorite:
"Life slipping through your fingers" 🙄 🙄

 

[medic170]

yes. gpa is a measure of a person's motivation for hard work. mcat is an indicator of a person's intelligence. Both are measures of competence which are essential to being able to compassionately save lives.

What about *****s like me who had to work 50 hours a week to put themselves through school, and got a slightly lower GPA because of that. Does my GPA give an accurate measure of my motivation you idiot.

 

[reggae girl]

Madame Lulu, I know I should ignore this ***** but I realized that quite a few people have/will read this post, I thought it was important for someone to briefly clarify certain things.

First, it is supremely ignorant to believe that 300+ years of oppression and repression can be erased within the 40 years that black people have gained "civil rights" in this county. There is still significant social, economic and racial disparities within our society that have not yet been ameliorated. So for someone to say that we are or should be already on a level playing field is ludicrous.

It is always amusing to see non URMs whine about the unfairness of AA. But yet they never complain about the benefits they receive in life b/c they're not URM. They receive higher paying jobs, they receive less police harassment, banks are more willing to give them loans and help them with home ownership, they can walk into stores without people watching everything they do, and I could go on and on forever. These people would never want to walk a day in my shoes, live in the "urban" neighborhood I live in, go to the crummy public schools that I went to but yet they want to diminish my accomplishment of getting into medical school b/c it is "unfair" to them.

If you want a scapegoat to blame for taking your spot at your dream medical school why don't you blame the legacy students, who get in b/c their parents are alums, their grand daddy built the library or their uncle is a professor. Or better yet why, don't you examine the real reason you or your "over qualified" buddy didn't get into school. Maybe it's not URMs or legacy kids, maybe it's just YOU.

 

[Rzarecta]

Madame Lulu, I know I should ignore this ***** but I realized that quite a few people have/will read this post, I thought it was important for someone to briefly clarify certain things.

First, it is supremely ignorant to believe that 300+ years of oppression and repression can be erased within the 40 years that black people have gained "civil rights" in this county. There is still significant social, economic and racial disparities within our society that have not yet been ameliorated. So for someone to say that we are or should be already on a level playing field is ludicrous.

It is always amusing to see non URMs whine about the unfairness of AA. But yet they never complain about the benefits they receive in life b/c they're not URM. They receive higher paying jobs, they receive less police harassment, banks are more willing to give them loans and help them with home ownership, they can walk into stores without people watching everything they do, and I could go on and on forever. These people would never want to walk a day in my shoes, live in the "urban" neighborhood I live in, go to the crummy public schools that I went to but yet they want to diminish my accomplishment of getting into medical school b/c it is "unfair" to them.

If you want a scapegoat to blame for taking your spot at your dream medical school why don't you blame the legacy students, who get in b/c their parents are alums, their grand daddy built the library or their uncle is a professor. Or better yet why, don't you examine the real reason you or your "over qualified" buddy didn't get into school. Maybe it's not URMs or legacy kids, maybe it's just YOU.

You know what I hate about this argument? You forgot that other minorities outside URMs face persecution also. I am South Asian, yet I look Arab, so imagine the gut reaction most people have when they see me. Sorry just something I wanted to get off my chest. On to the OP's topic:

Though people bitch that AA isn't the best system, it is a SYSTEM THAT WORKS. Medicine SHOULD be to some degree representative of the population. Even with AA, minority applicants are still few and far between. Imagine traditionally black/hispanic neighborhoods and what kind of medical care would most greatly benefit them. Of course both a nonURM or URM doc would be able to treat them, but who would the patient rather have? Who would understand better the cultural intricacies of such socities? Come on people, being a doctor doesn't require genius, so I hate that competency BS being thrown around. People are going to be a GOOD doctors if they get through med school.

Everyone that thinks this system sucks, instead of just bitching about it why don't you come up with something better? If you don't have anything, then shut the hell up. Personally, I believe that AA should also grow to encompass economic reasons. There are prolly plenty of poor white/asian kids who don't have the financial means that others do.

Alright, I am done, have a good weekend.

 

[uptoolate]

I really hesitate to contribute to an inane posting but there's a another point people seem to missing aside from the blatant disparity in educational resources available to URMs. That is patient care.

A URM woman that has spent hours crossing the city on a public bus, with a sick child in tow, missing a day's work at a hourly wage job is far more comfortable with a URM doc that she believes she can relate to than with a Caucasian (or whatever non-URM) Harvard grad with a 4.0 and a 43 MCAT. Osler said it back in the day and I can attest that Hopkins, for one, still teaches that the diagnosis is most often delivered in the patient history. Hard to get that if the patient is initimidated, embarassed or uncomfortable with her doc. Hands down, that woman prefers the 2.95er from Coppin State than said Harvard grad any day of the week. Rage against it if you want, but this IS supposed to be about treating sick people right? Data show that most illnesses segregate by SES, with the sicker among the lower end. Oh yeah, URM status tends to segregate the same way.

But if that URM doc happened to also go to Harvard and got a 4.0, or Coppin State and got a 4.0, bonus all around.

The reason it is called Under Represented Minority is because, said group is, well under-represented, especially given the patient population out there. Ever notice that URM Hispanic is very narrowly defined? Its because there are a lot more Mexicans living in the US and seeking health care than there are, say, Bolivians.

Hey, but don't take my word for it- check out the gajillion research articles on the subject. And don't flame me, go to the nearest Health Service Research conference and take them on.

 

[gbiz]

I found this post to be the most useful in this entire thread 🙂

the OP is ridiculous.
His posts are so trollish i'm surprised that ppl still genuinely address his questions.

A sample of his posts
"girls dig doctors: is this true"
I'm scared:...scared that no one will accept me"
"I got in!: the celebration begins"
Let's be honest...: If you medicine didn't provide strong financial rewards, would we all be busting our asses right now?
"Japanese girls are...uhum...sexually promiscuous "
"Which specialty makes the most money: Does anyone know where I can find a link to this"
"It's sad to be asian"
"which residency makes the most money: is there a list of some sort"
"schools with a high percentage of asian girls: this is somewhat of a concern"
"this application processing is depressing: give me some comfort please"
"what does DO stand for?"
"MDs have trouble getting girls? "
"do girls flock to M.D.s? "
"losing my girlfriend because I'm a premed "
"Life beyond SDN: I'm wondering what other people do for fun besides staring at this website. I find myself addicted to SDN beyond cure."
"still a virgin?: was wondering what percentage of students entering med. school are virgins. I'm just fruitlessly curious."

And my favorite:
"Life slipping through your fingers" 🙄 🙄

 

[Khenon]

So what about the generic middle class white kids with the low stats who get in? Are they worthy of the white coat?

What a stupid question. Of course they're not worthy. They should all be lined up, along with the URM's, and shot in the back like the dogs they are.

 

[med009]

HAHAHAHAHAHA
the first thing i thought when i read the original post was "wow, this guy's gotta have the smallest d!ck on earth"

um...dude.... I am south asian. That's why I'm feeling your pain.

................. and i was right!!!!!!!!

 

[ShyRem]

My thoughts on AA:

People will be truly equal when they are truly judged only on their merits and not by the color of their skin, size or sex of their body, age, or genetic lineage.

Until we get to that point, AA will always be a bone of contention for all sides. (Yes, I realize that due to basic human nature this ideal is a fantasy. But I do feel it is truly the only fair way to judge.)

 

[nico05]

I don't care how great your ECs are, when your stats are this low, you're not fit to be a doc.

That is a pretty ignorant statement and has nothing to do with being a minority.

 

[canttouchthis]

I have an friend who is a half black. This guy is rich(actually my dad's boss's son). Always has been extremely priviledged. Now my friend has gotten into 6 top ten schools with full rides at most of them. His scores are ok, but nothing close to the averages at the schools he got into. Now I love this guy and am very happy for him, but I think it is the med schools that are missing the point of A.A. in that they want to snap up anyone who checks that URM box on their application, and if it happens to be an incredibly overpriviledged dude who pretty much considers himself white otherwise, so be it. I mean at each school he would get additional recruitment letters from the Deans of Multicultural Affairs, additional interviews specifically with them, and his turnaround time for hearing from these schools was incredibly fast. Don't get me wrong, I think A.A. is a great idea, but it needs tinkering for shizzle.

 

[reggae girl]

You know what I hate about this argument? You forgot that other minorities outside URMs face persecution also. I am South Asian, yet I look Arab, so imagine the gut reaction most people have when they see me. Sorry just something I wanted to get off my chest. On to the OP's topic:

Though people bitch that AA isn't the best system, it is a SYSTEM THAT WORKS. Medicine SHOULD be to some degree representative of the population. Even with AA, minority applicants are still few and far between. Imagine traditionally black/hispanic neighborhoods and what kind of medical care would most greatly benefit them. Of course both a nonURM or URM doc would be able to treat them, but who would the patient rather have? Who would understand better the cultural intricacies of such socities? Come on people, being a doctor doesn't require genius, so I hate that competency BS being thrown around. People are going to be a GOOD doctors if they get through med school.

Everyone that thinks this system sucks, instead of just bitching about it why don't you come up with something better? If you don't have anything, then shut the hell up. Personally, I believe that AA should also grow to encompass economic reasons. There are prolly plenty of poor white/asian kids who don't have the financial means that others do.

Alright, I am done, have a good weekend.

Although I agree with the majority of your argument 🙂 , I do not entirely agree with the statement made in your first paragraph. I never said that other groups do not face discrimination in this country, that would be naive. I was just making the point that the synergy of factors that affect a URM's life makes it such that special considerations given to them (AA) are not absurd.

 

[Aero047]

I honestly don't understand the need for it (I know, I know; how insensitive and what a terrible person I must be). Frankly, cultural change needs to occur in certain communities in this nation. Hard work can pull you out of the gloom and doom and into prosperity in this country more than any other in the world. It doesn't help that we live in a society that loves to create victims out of people and tells that they should feel entitled to something and that others should feel guilty about it.

Growing up, my dad had one pair of jeans and one pair of dress pants. That was it. He worked 80-hours a week and made something of himself. No one gave him a dime.

I'm not one of these people who is going to go shouting on the rooftops how unfair AA is, but I do think it's wrong and ultimately counterproductive.

There really isn't any good that's coming out of whining, though, and I think pointing fingers is also counterproductive.

So I'm done with this thread.

I wholeheartedly agree. There must come a point where society must stop picking up slack for people who don't work hard enough to get good grades to get into a good medical school. Relying on the color of your skin is an incentive for people to put in less effort to get mediocre grades, guaranteed they'll get in because of their race. The non-URMs have to work 2x harder for what? The playing field has been level for a long time, however AA is working AGAINST leveling the playing field because of favoritism. It's time for everyone to have some personal accountability for their future.

 

[Blinky_1]

ummm.....average for asians is not 30. The AMCAS website has a statistical report up and if I remember (correct me if I'm wrong), it's 26. Above average, but not 30.

Geez, why so defensive gilly? I can understand the OPs point of view though. URMs do consistently get in with lower numbers. I mean, according to the AMCAS numbers, I think the average MCAT scores are something like 3 points lower on average.

That's a pretty big dropoff.

Besides, why is it more likely that an admissions committee will look past a URMs numbers just because they are a URM? Why aren't whites or ORMs getting that same benefit of the doubt on a more consistent basis, because I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of asians with 27s on their MCATs that are applying to medical school, yet the overall average for asians is a 30.

That's not to say there aren't qualified URMs, it's just blatantly unfair that particular races re judged by different standards. What happened to equality and the fight to be judged on one's abilities and not the color of their skin.

 

[Blinky_1]

ummm.....average for asians is not 30. The AMCAS website has a statistical report up and if I remember (correct me if I'm wrong), it's 26. Above average, but not 30.

2004 numbers:

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/sum2004.pdf

Alright. I was wrong. Combining the individual averages of Asians to a lump score makes a number of 25.2. Of all people taking the MCAT, the average score is 24.6. What I find interesting is that people that take the test over again do significantly worse. 1.2 points worse on average according to the link below. My guess is that once you study for it the first time, you never want to put yourself through it ever again and consequently you end up not studying as hard the second time around. BTW, this race thing is stupid to me. To be honest with all of you, diversity is a good thing and something we need more of.....whether it be by religion, culture, economic status, or just plane color of skin. Let's make this world more intersting. 😀

 

[reggae girl]

I wholeheartedly agree. There must come a point where society must stop picking up slack for people who don't work hard enough to get good grades to get into a good medical school. Relying on the color of your skin is an incentive for people to put in less effort to get mediocre grades, guaranteed they'll get in because of their race. The non-URMs have to work 2x harder for what? The playing field has been level for a long time, however AA is working AGAINST leveling the playing field because of favoritism. It's time for everyone to have some personal accountability for their future.

Thinking that the playing field is level demonstrates your naivete and ignorance. It also shows that you did not take the time to read the previous posts as this subject was addressed. You are entitled to your opinions, however uninformed and misguided they are. But I do hope when you becone a doctor you will choose NOT to work in a predominantly URM neighborhood b/c those patients certainly don't need or deserve an ignorant, narrow-minded doctor such as yourself.

By the way, speaking from experience, every URM who I know who has gotten into medical school, has worked damn hard to get there.

 

[Shredder]

Every time I see an URM get into an ivy league school with a 25 mcat and 3.5 gpa, it makes me cringe in thinking how unfair this process is. What's worse is the fact that that person's gain is someone else's loss. I don't care how great your ECs are, when your stats are this low, you're not fit to be a doc.

its a legitimate concern that 3.5 and 25 may be unfit to be an eventual doctor, and especially not from a top school. lately ive wondered why not hold urms to a binding contract saying they must practice in the underserved areas from which they supposedly came, rather than the implicit but ineffective agreement that goes on now? i mean the urms that get in solely based on their status, with glaringly substandard qualifications. i guess this may be partially accounted for in the match, but i dont know how urm status works there. it's sad that stellar ORMs and the Majority get the short end of the stick.

i wont take up the defeatist attitude and say were stuck with this system so why fight it--but in our current positions in life i dont think we have the leverage to change anything. time and effort are probably better spent elsewhere at this point. maybe when lots of opposers gather enough money and power one day, change can be made. but once we get past all of these hurdles how much will we care, kind of like a 21+ year old pushing to lower the drinking age.

i never understood how aff action can be touted while seeming to be so fundamentally at odds with MLK's famous words in his dream speech

 

[getunconcsious]

Actually if you read all of my posts in this thread you will see that I was making a point...but what if I like being thought of as a selfabsorbed *ss

Former models represent! 😎

Sounds like you did much better than me if you were doing runway in france, but I used to do crappy catalog work for like $75 per 30 min...makes me wonder why I'm wasting my time with this bull$hit doc stuff now. It sure was way easier money!

I wonder who else on SDN used to be a model. I know a couple other premeds at my undergrad who did. I say we hijack this thread and make it the home for self-absorbed former models.

[edited because i am clearly losing my mind.]

 

[visualwealth]

there are only around 1000 black people in all medical schools... Compare that to their population in America... America needs more black doctors that is, we need more diversity in the medical field... I am sick of people pretending like one's GPA or MCAT score determine the type of doctor they will be... Let me give a practical example that most of you will understand... I know several people with good grades that suck at lab thus, can their GPA and MCAT determine if they have the hand to eye cordination etc that it takes to be a doc??? Like someone already said it does not take a genius to be a doctor... Doctors are generally not smart they are just the hardworkers with average to above average intelligence... The real intellects are bill gates and others of that sort...

Finally, no one gets into a top 20 school that does not deserve to be there... I know black people with 31+ MCAT that did not attend a "top" medschools... Also, I highly doubt that the average mcat for a minority at an IVY LEAGUE school is 25 I would guess it is closer to 34...

 

[gbiz]

See, the thing is, if an URM got into an Ivy league school with a 25, they are by no means the norm.

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=438

This is a white guy with a 25 MCAT. Accepted to Vanderbilt, Utah, and HARVARD. So now, should I start a thread on how it pisses me off that these over-represented white guys get into Ivy leagues with a 25 MCAT?????

THESE ARE NOT THE NORM, THEY ARE EXCEPTIONS, AND THERE IS A REASON THEY ARE AN EXCEPTION! Hell, maybe the schools liked he was a paramedic? Maybe there is a hell of a lot more then what his mdapps.com profile shows!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[EvoDevo]

Every time I see an URM get into an ivy league school with a 25 mcat and 3.5 gpa, it makes me cringe in thinking how unfair this process is. What's worse is the fact that that person's gain is someone else's loss. I don't care how great your ECs are, when your stats are this low, you're not fit to be a doc.

Just saw this. Closing.