Afganistan....urm minority?

[VanillaBear]

Hey Guys,
I was born in Afghanistan and came here when I was very little!
I can't figure out what category I fall under. The TMSDAS describes "Asian" as middle east, southeast asia, east asia, countries on the Indian subcontinent, and some ipacific island countries, BUT Afghanistan is not in ANY of those categories.

For now I chose the "other" option, but let me know what you guys think I fall under? And do u think being Afghani is considered under represented in medicine? Thanks in advance for those who reply...much appreciated!

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[VanillaBear]

oops...I spelled Afghanistan wrong in the thread title! lol 😛

 

[jochi1543]

Please take time to at least look at the front page before you post...

http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm

 

[VanillaBear]

ok....so it doesn't fall under URM according to AMC.

But wut about falling under Asian category or falling under "other" category??

 

[armybound]

Afghanistan doesn't fit "Middle East"?

if not, wouldn't you consider it southwest Asia?

 

[jochi1543]

Afghanistan is traditionally considered part of the Middle East - other opinions do exist, but this is the one accepted by the majority.

 

[VanillaBear]

TMDSAS description of Asian/Pacific Islander:
A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, the Indian subcontinent or Pacific Islands (this includes, for example, China, Japan, Korea, the Philippine Islands, India, Pakistan, American Samoa and Vietnam).

That description doesn't include southwest Asia. So I think Afghanistan might fall into the "other" category.

 

[jochi1543]

Just e-mail TDMSAS if it's such a huge deal to you personally....it's not gonna make any difference in your admissions success.

 

[Trojan-LY]

Hey Guys,
The TMSDAS describes "Asian" as middle east

Do they I thought the people of the Middle East are classified as White, which I think is not right,since no one really considers them that way. The difference between whites and middle eastner is really apparent in airports.

 

[Trojan-LY]

White/Caucasian
A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa or the Middle East (except those of Hispanic origin).

Thats from their site.

 

[TomWestmanRules]

I can't figure out what category I fall under.

Take 3 seconds and look at yourself in the mirror. Problem solved.

 

[BIG Daddy#1]

Trojan is right. If you are from any of the middle eastern countries such as Iran, Iraq and surrounding countries, you are considered White and not a minority

 

[TheRealMD]

Perhaps they should make Middle Eastern as the next ethnicity...

 

[Meatwad]

Languages and cultures are a hobby of mine, so I'm no expert, but here is what I have to say about this:

First off, as far as I know, "Afghan," is not really an ethnicity. Do you mean you are a Pashtun (for a long time, Afghan and Pashtun were used interchangeably by Westerners, but nowadays we're more sensitive to other cultures). I'll assume yes, since they are a dominant ethnic group in Afghanistan.

Pashtuns speak a language that is related to Persian (Indo-Iranian is the branch, I think). They are also descendants of Aryan tribes, like Persian people. Furthermore, Pashtuns are caucasoids, so I don't see how they'd be URMs.

BTW, Afghanistan is considered a cross-road between the Middle East, Central Asia, and the Indian subcontinent. Any of these three would be a fairly accurate description of the countries' location. Since it is right next to Iran, most would consider it the Middle East, though.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Afghans are caucasian.

 

[philios]

Perhaps they should make Middle Eastern as the next ethnicity...

perhaps they should through this affirmative action crap out the window, do away with the "select an ethnicity" section and accept applicants solely based on competancy and their academic and extracurricular acheivements. America needs to stop catering to "minorities" and treat them the same as everyone else. And before you go and tell me Im crazy, check out the AAMC stats for accepted students based on ethnicity. It is seriously disturbing.

 

[riceman04]

perhaps they should through this affirmative action crap out the window, do away with the "select an ethnicity" section and accept applicants solely based on competancy and their academic and extracurricular acheivements. America needs to stop catering to "minorities" and treat them the same as everyone else. And before you go and tell me Im crazy, check out the AAMC stats for accepted students based on ethnicity. It is seriously disturbing.

I don't mean to start anything big here but........:

It seems as if you are ready to place the wants and desires of applicants over the needs of a diverse patient population.

just my opinion...but sometimes I wonder what people are really thinking about when they make bold ass statements that only highlight their individualistic attitudes

Oh...and by the way...disadvantaged status is considered as well when reviewing applicants...so it is quite possible that stats from some of your majority friends are "seriously disturbing" as well. But hey, I'll let you continue on your pointless rant...especially since you seem to refuse a genuine solution to a problem medical schools are attempting to fix.

 

[Felzor]

For now I chose the "other" option, but let me know what you guys think I fall under? And do u think being Afghani is considered under represented in medicine? Thanks in advance for those who reply...much appreciated!

This is a classic example of Eurocentrism. Do you think the people who made the AMCAS have a freaking clue that there are more than 5 ethnicities in the world? This issue is so much more complicated than a bubble on a sheet. As an Afghani, I'm sure you have genes in you from Asia, India, Russia, the Middle East and elsewhere.

And just what does "Middle Eastern" mean anyway? Since when were Persians of the same ethnic group as Arabs? And is somebody from Morocco considered Middle Eastern or African? I'm surprised you aren't personally offended by the way they lump people together. I would put down "Other" and see if you can get a chance to explain your heritage somewhere in the admissions process.

 

[Felzor]

America needs to stop catering to "minorities" and treat them the same as everyone else. And before you go and tell me Im crazy

Take a social studies class, my friend.

 

[philios]

dp

 

[philios]

I don't mean to start anything big here but........:

It seems as if you are ready to place the wants and desires of applicants over the needs of a diverse patient population.

just my opinion...but sometimes I wonder what people are really thinking about when they make bold ass statements that only highlight their individualistic attitudes.

true you could think about it that way. or you could use the mindset that those who are the best qualified to be selected as doctors will make the best doctors and therefore provide a better level of care. racism is obviously wrong, but telling a minority with a 3.2/28MCAT (assuming equal extracurriculars) that theyre better than a 3.8/32 white kid is almost as bad. youre suggesting its ok to have a mediocre population of doctors as long as theyre "diverse". Im suggesting that we put diversity aside and put out the best population of doctors regardless of skin color or background.

 

[Bacchus]

true you could think about it that way. or you could use the mindset that those who are the best qualified to be selected as doctors will make the best doctors and therefore provide a better level of care. racism is obviously wrong, but telling a minority with a 3.2/28MCAT (assuming equal extracurriculars) that theyre better than a 3.8/32 white kid is almost as bad. youre suggesting its ok to have a mediocre population of doctors as long as theyre "diverse". Im suggesting that we put diversity aside and put out the best population of doctors regardless of skin color or background.

Can you actually support those stats? I think that is a bit drastic. IMO a school will not accept that URM over the other applicant, but then again I may be wrong.

 

[philios]

Can you actually support those stats? I think that is a bit drastic. IMO a school will not accept that URM over the other applicant, but then again I may be wrong.

why yes i can...

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2006/mcatgparaceeth.htm

 

[riceman04]

Can you actually support those stats? I think that is a bit drastic. IMO a school will not accept that URM over the other applicant, but then again I may be wrong.

Actually there are minorities with those stats who do go to medical school...But let's keep in mind that many of those minorities with those stats are not necessarily getting into top 20 schools...Considering the fact that there are not that many URM's in medical school, I would be inclined to say that many attend HBCU's (and some of the schools in Puerto Rico...which tend to accept applicants with the lower end scores).

 

[riceman04]

true you could think about it that way. or you could use the mindset that those who are the best qualified to be selected as doctors will make the best doctors and therefore provide a better level of care. racism is obviously wrong, but telling a minority with a 3.2/28MCAT (assuming equal extracurriculars) that theyre better than a 3.8/32 white kid is almost as bad. youre suggesting its ok to have a mediocre population of doctors as long as theyre "diverse". Im suggesting that we put diversity aside and put out the best population of doctors regardless of skin color or background.

true you could think about it that way. or you could use the mindset that those who are the best qualified to be selected as doctors will make the best doctors and therefore provide a better level of care.

Yeah...but the problem with that mindset is that it has been proven faulty!!

And I am not sure if you can conclude that someone will MOST LIKELY be a mediocre physician if they performed poorly in college. Last time I checked college and medical school are two separate entities. A person who did earn a 3.2 gpa in college could perform at the top of the class in medical school.

 

[Yehosh]

Trojan is right. If you are from any of the middle eastern countries such as Iran, Iraq and surrounding countries, you are considered White and not a minority

yep, you're right. I was born in Israel and applied as a non minority, nor did I believe I deserved to qualify as a URM.

 

[Ilovewaiting]

Can you actually support those stats? I think that is a bit drastic. IMO a school will not accept that URM over the other applicant, but then again I may be wrong.

State med schools would salivate over a 3.2/28 URM applicant.

 

[philios]

Yeah...but the problem with that mindset is that it has been proven faulty!!

And I am not sure if you can conclude that someone will MOST LIKELY be a mediocre physician if they performed poorly in college. Last time I checked college and medical school are two separate entities. A person who did earn a 3.2 gpa in college could perform at the top of the class in medical school.

1)you say "proven faulty" yet i see no evidence nor have i ever seen any evidence regarding that "mindset"

2)i find it extremely hard to believe that someone who is mediocre in college would excel in an environment that is exponentially harder (academically and physically). Why not go with the person who has proven themself qualified to take on the academic challenge?

3) affirmitive action and similar programs had their time and place to transition America into what it is today. that time and place is now over, but no politician with a mind for his own political security would dare bring this up today.

 

[riceman04]

1)you say "proven faulty" yet i see no evidence nor have i ever seen any evidence regarding that "mindset"

2)i find it extremely hard to believe that someone who is mediocre in college would excel in an environment that is exponentially harder (academically and physically). Why not go with the person who has proven themself qualified to take on the academic challenge?

3) affirmitive action and similar programs had their time and place to transition America into what it is today. that time and place is now over, but no politician with a mind for his own political security would dare bring this up today.

The point is you have no evidence to suggest that people who make mediocre grades in undergrad will become mediocre doctors...that is faulty reasoning.

 

[badasshairday]

why yes i can...

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2006/mcatgparaceeth.htm

Wow, the average asian matriculant has a ~32 MCAT! 😱

 

[mdm2fly]

i find it extremely hard to believe that someone who is mediocre in college would excel in an environment that is exponentially harder (academically and physically). Why not go with the person who has proven themself qualified to take on the academic challenge?

if you compare someone with a 3.5 who worked a full time job, took 5 classes a quarter, and had a hard major, with someone with a 3.9 who didn't have to work, took 3 classes a quarter, and picked their courses and major depending on how hard they were, you might see the 3.5er excel over the 3.9er on the exponentially harder, but level, playing field of med school.

 

[PullMyFinger]

I am Afghan and I put other.

Ah well.

 

[philios]

The point is you have no evidence to suggest that people who make mediocre grades in undergrad will become mediocre doctors...that is faulty reasoning.

while on an absolute scale then yes you are correct, but i never said that "every mediocre student will make a mediocre doctor", i was speaking generally. even you must conceded that it is MUCH more probable that someone who is able to perform excellently in college will be able to do better in med school.

 

[PullMyFinger]

As far as that whole Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara stuff goes....I think that stuff is unneccessary. Aside from a small .1% of non-Afghans, the rest don't even know about that stuff.

 

[philios]

if you compare someone with a 3.5 who worked a full time job, took 5 classes a quarter, and had a hard major, with someone with a 3.9 who didn't have to work, took 3 classes a quarter, and picked their courses and major depending on how hard they were, you might see the 3.5er excel over the 3.9er on the exponentially harder, but level, playing field of med school.

Well if you had read my first post in this topic rather than jumping to conclusions based on only one of my points, you would have noticed that I said "telling a minority with a 3.2/28MCAT (assuming equal extracurriculars) that theyre better than a 3.8/32 white kid....." etc. However you are correct in that med schools obviously look outside solely gpa/mcat in determining admissions. My overall point was that I dont believe ethnicity/race should be a factor at all in admissions.

 

[riceman04]

Well if you had read my first post in this topic rather than jumping to conclusions based on only one of my points, you would have noticed that I said "telling a minority with a 3.2/28MCAT (assuming equal extracurriculars) that theyre better than a 3.8/32 white kid....." etc. However you are correct in that med schools obviously look outside solely gpa/mcat in determining admissions. My overall point was that I dont believe ethnicity/race should be a factor at all in admissions.

Back where we started...oh well...isn't that how it always ends?

 

[Daydreamer2008]

true you could think about it that way. or you could use the mindset that those who are the best qualified to be selected as doctors will make the best doctors and therefore provide a better level of care. racism is obviously wrong, but telling a minority with a 3.2/28MCAT (assuming equal extracurriculars) that theyre better than a 3.8/32 white kid is almost as bad. youre suggesting its ok to have a mediocre population of doctors as long as theyre "diverse". Im suggesting that we put diversity aside and put out the best population of doctors regardless of skin color or background.

It is not just about giving a "break" to minorities. It's the fact that those minorities are more likely to go serve the neighborhoods that they come from, which is VERY important in medicine and healthcare today. If we admit all rich kids who had the funds to get tutors/prep classes to get into med school, you think they will go practice in a low income area? NEVER

 

[QuakerPreMed]

why yes i can...

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2006/mcatgparaceeth.htm

You did look at that and realize that only one out of five applicants is a non-white non-Asian minority, right? Even if their statistics are lower (which is quite arguably irrelevant to their future skills as a doctor), the US medical system isn't exactly being flooded with 'unqualified' minority candidates as your postings seem to indicate. If you want something to worry over, look at the number of foreign-trained doctors going into family practice compared to the number of US allo graduates doing the same. Of course, that's a whole 'nother issue...

further interesting stat: about 50% of white applicants are accepted (22,669:10,541) but only about 33% of black candidates are accepted (2,906:1,155). edit after actually doing math: ok, more like 47% and 39%, but still...

 

[VanillaBear]

This is a classic example of Eurocentrism. Do you think the people who made the AMCAS have a freaking clue that there are more than 5 ethnicities in the world? This issue is so much more complicated than a bubble on a sheet. As an Afghani, I'm sure you have genes in you from Asia, India, Russia, the Middle East and elsewhere.

And just what does "Middle Eastern" mean anyway? Since when were Persians of the same ethnic group as Arabs? And is somebody from Morocco considered Middle Eastern or African? I'm surprised you aren't personally offended by the way they lump people together. I would put down "Other" and see if you can get a chance to explain your heritage somewhere in the admissions process.

Thanks Felzor! I agree with you completely 😍

 

[Meatwad]

This is a classic example of Eurocentrism. Do you think the people who made the AMCAS have a freaking clue that there are more than 5 ethnicities in the world? This issue is so much more complicated than a bubble on a sheet. As an Afghani, I'm sure you have genes in you from Asia, India, Russia, the Middle East and elsewhere.

And just what does "Middle Eastern" mean anyway? Since when were Persians of the same ethnic group as Arabs? And is somebody from Morocco considered Middle Eastern or African? I'm surprised you aren't personally offended by the way they lump people together. I would put down "Other" and see if you can get a chance to explain your heritage somewhere in the admissions process.

First off, it doesn't sound like the application really cares what your specific ethnicity is as much as they care about the general region. For example, we'll go with your Persian vs. Arab argument. Obviously, they are very different peoples (although both considered caucasoids). Afro-Asiatic vs. Indo-European language, totally different ancestral history, etc. However, how many Arabs and how many Persians are there in this country and are doctors? I'm guessing the numbers are close to each other. So if an Arab is not a URM, a Persian isn't a URM as well.

Plus, what is the exact wording of the application question? I haven't filled out an AMCAS application at this point, so I'm curious exactly what they ask. Race? Ethnicity?

 

[riceman04]

First off, it doesn't sound like the application really cares what your specific ethnicity is as much as they care about the general region. For example, we'll go with your Persian vs. Arab argument. Obviously, they are very different peoples (although both considered caucasoids). Afro-Asiatic vs. Indo-European language, totally different ancestral history, etc. However, how many Arabs and how many Persians are there in this country and are doctors? I'm guessing the numbers are close to each other. So if an Arab is not a URM, a Persian isn't a URM as well.

Plus, what is the exact wording of the application question? I haven't filled out an AMCAS application at this point, so I'm curious exactly what they ask. Race? Ethnicity?

They ask both