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What is the next step for someone who does a Surgery-prelim internship? What PGY-2 programs can they apply to and have a chance of matching into? Thanks.
After Surgery-Preliminary Internship
- Thread starter EmmaNemma
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Gen Surg. Surgical sub-specialties. PMR, Rads, Rad Onc and Gas (can't remember if Derm would work). Otherwise you can start over as a PGY1 in something else.
Note well that prelim surgery spots are notorious dead end positions. Not for everybody, but for lots of people.
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What gutonc said. Derm appears to be an option too. Their RRC's program requirement document is rather vague regarding the PGY1 prerequisite.
Depending on the individual program, You might also be able to transfer into open PGY2 spots in EM, FM, and OBGYN, without having to repeat too much.
Depending on the individual program, You might also be able to transfer into open PGY2 spots in EM, FM, and OBGYN, without having to repeat too much.
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That said...somebody who can only match (or scramble) into a prelim surg spot is probably not going to be a strong candidate for most (any?) of those specialties. And I don't think ABFP gives any credit for a surgery year.
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Agreed. Were discussing in theory, not in practicality. Different wax ball.
You may be right about FM, Im honestly not sure. But I figured one should be able to get at least SOME transfer credit for a prelim surg year. I remember reading something like 2 months for general surgery rotations, and maybe another 2-3 months towards electives? Someone correct me if Im mistaken.
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FM requires 1 month of inpatient surgery, and (possibly) 1 month of outpatient surgery clinic. If you did any time in the ER in your prelim year, that'd count as well. You MIGHT be able to sell trauma months as additional ER experience. If you're really persuasive, you may be able to sell any time on peds surgery to count towards your peds requirement, although I wouldn't recommend that necessarily. Almost all surgery prelims have ICU time, which also counts to an FM residency. So that's, what, a minimum of 4 months? It's something.
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agree w/gutonc.
I have known someone who went from surg prelim to anesthesia...thought not directly...there were a couple of research years in between.
some anesthesiology programs give out-of-the-match/off cycle spots to such people. You would have to have done well in your prelim position.
In general, I think prelim surgical positions should be looked at skeptically, because as mentioned above, they can be dead ends. A lot of places take people, such as FMG or IMG's, and they kind of prey on their idealism and vulnerability. People think they will have a chance at staying or strong chance at upper level surgical spot somewhere else, but you need to look for hard facts to back that up if a program is telling you that. For example, where are all the people they gave prelim spots to in the past 3 years? Where are they now? Are they in surgical residency @that institution, or somewhere else?
I have known someone who went from surg prelim to anesthesia...thought not directly...there were a couple of research years in between.
some anesthesiology programs give out-of-the-match/off cycle spots to such people. You would have to have done well in your prelim position.
In general, I think prelim surgical positions should be looked at skeptically, because as mentioned above, they can be dead ends. A lot of places take people, such as FMG or IMG's, and they kind of prey on their idealism and vulnerability. People think they will have a chance at staying or strong chance at upper level surgical spot somewhere else, but you need to look for hard facts to back that up if a program is telling you that. For example, where are all the people they gave prelim spots to in the past 3 years? Where are they now? Are they in surgical residency @that institution, or somewhere else?
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You see 3 groups of folks going to prelim surgery paths:
(1) folks hoping to go into surgery or surgical fields who didn't match and are looking for a foot in the door. This sometimes works, but the person usually was on the cusp in the first place. It doesn't usually work for folks who simply wanted surgery but didn't have the stats or had a big black mark on their application.
(2) Folks already with advanced positions who for whatever reason opted to do a prelim surgery year. This might make sense for folks going into surgery intense advanced paths like optho or IR. In most cases it means the person was limited by geography, or underestimated their competitiveness for transitional programs in the match, didn't scramble well and took what was available.
(3) Folks who could not get anything else in the match, either because they are IMG, or noncompetitive, and are hoping to use this as a foot in the door for anything. This rarely works out.
(1) folks hoping to go into surgery or surgical fields who didn't match and are looking for a foot in the door. This sometimes works, but the person usually was on the cusp in the first place. It doesn't usually work for folks who simply wanted surgery but didn't have the stats or had a big black mark on their application.
(2) Folks already with advanced positions who for whatever reason opted to do a prelim surgery year. This might make sense for folks going into surgery intense advanced paths like optho or IR. In most cases it means the person was limited by geography, or underestimated their competitiveness for transitional programs in the match, didn't scramble well and took what was available.
(3) Folks who could not get anything else in the match, either because they are IMG, or noncompetitive, and are hoping to use this as a foot in the door for anything. This rarely works out.
hi guys
i just have a question iam an IMG graduated 2008 , step 1 252/99 and preparing for the step 2 ck now , also i have 8 months USCE in surgery and IM , i dont need a visa iam a legal resident , i am interested in general surgery so i thought by going to prelim i might have a chance in cat what s your advise for me thanks in advance .
i just have a question iam an IMG graduated 2008 , step 1 252/99 and preparing for the step 2 ck now , also i have 8 months USCE in surgery and IM , i dont need a visa iam a legal resident , i am interested in general surgery so i thought by going to prelim i might have a chance in cat what s your advise for me thanks in advance .
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I have what may be a dumb question, but I don't know the answer so I going to ask. There's a resident at the school I just graduated from who didn't match last year and was given a surg-prelim spot. He tried again this year and didn't match again, so they're going to let him do another prelim year. If he tries again next year, would he have to start as a PGY-1 again or would the 2 years he's already done count and allow him to "start" as a PGY-3?
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Depends on where he's going. Some people don't get in anywhere after two prelim years, and I know of someone getting a PGY-3 spot after two prelim years.
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If they allowed him to do a PGY-2 prelim year, and he matches next year, then yes, he'd be a PGY-3 categorical.
I just saw this thread and it is slightly depressing. My husband is in the AF, encouraged to do a surgical PGY1 year, after that year AF decided it was time to pay his time back. Time is coming to a close and he's looking to reapply as PGY1, but programs are stating funding issues. We are in an overseas tour and short staffed during critical time, he's not allowed personal time off to rotate/visit programs. Are there really no options to train in desired field (oto) other than hoping to find a rare PGY2 position?
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Can he apply for the military specific residencies or are those navy and army only? I am thinking about Tripler, Wilford Hall, Walter Reed. I think Norfolk VA also has a program. Anyway I'm not a great resource on this obviously, but are these options for him?
Fact: As a prelim PGY1, you have an 18% chance of ever continuing in General Surgery. The vast majority of prelims end up in family medicine.
That said, prelim surgery is the ONLY way for IMGs to get into categorical surgery... Landing a prelim position is hard enough, but landing a categorical surgical position borders the impossible.
That said, prelim surgery is the ONLY way for IMGs to get into categorical surgery... Landing a prelim position is hard enough, but landing a categorical surgical position borders the impossible.
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Yeah IMG's have it really tough. I read a study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7859951) that said 20% of IMG in FP either leave or get fired. If you're an IMG please realistically look at your chances before coming to US. Many people jump at the chance of coming to US, but in reality, the quality of life here is actually worst if you dont match. I was talking to an attending who said he had a job handing out fliers before finally getting residency. That being said, congrats to those who made it!🙂
(I also shouldn't talk since I'm interested in surgery, and even cat surg have 20% attrition rate)
(I also shouldn't talk since I'm interested in surgery, and even cat surg have 20% attrition rate)
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Hello Knightmd,
Since you have some experience with surgery residency, is it true that average US senior grads (i.e. 228/98 Step 1, couple of H's in clerkships, no publications, but have oral and poster presentations at national conferences) can get into competitive surgery preliminaries? I see Stanford and UCSF have unfilled positions last year. In fact, only 50% are filled, but only 50% US grads matched. Thanks for your time on the matter.
Or it could be answered by anyone who knows more about surg prelims. Thanks. 🙂
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Dead end is right!
Well, I am not saying this is the case for everyone. But I was an IMG in US did two years of Prelim Surgery at a reputable program and I am back home. So I am an example of this scenario.
I knew going in, however, I really wanted to do surgery and I performed well, however, didn't work out. So, I don't know what to make of this.
I have regrets somedays, and somedays I cherish the opportunity. Now, back to square one!
Well, I am not saying this is the case for everyone. But I was an IMG in US did two years of Prelim Surgery at a reputable program and I am back home. So I am an example of this scenario.
I knew going in, however, I really wanted to do surgery and I performed well, however, didn't work out. So, I don't know what to make of this.
I have regrets somedays, and somedays I cherish the opportunity. Now, back to square one!
