After US bachelors?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
M

MrsDewey

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Points
0
  1. Pre-Medical
Members do not see this ad.
My goal is to become neurosurgeon (may settle for neurologist, but not preferred). I am two years away from my BS in Biology and my BA in Chemistry. I plan to finish these and then move to the UK and finish my schooling to become a neurosurgeon. So what I'm really wondering is what would be my first step in schooling when I make it the UK after obtaining my two bachelors degrees here in the US?
 
Last edited:
MrsDewey said:
My goal is to become neurosurgeon (may settle for neurologist, but not preferred). I am two years away from my BS in Biology and my BA in Chemistry. I plan to finish these and then move to the UK and finish my schooling to become a neurosurgeon. So what I'm really wondering is what would be my first step in schooling when I make it the UK after obtaining my two bachelors degrees here in the UK?
Click to expand...

Huh? How are you doing 2 Bachelors degrees in the UK at once? BA in Chem? Don't you mean BSc?
 
I'm doing two bachelors in the US, not the UK. Sorry about that mistake, I fixed it 😀
 
Ok, well after that you would apply for med school. After med school we do 2 foundation years which includes 6 different 4 month jobs in various medical and surgical specialties and general practice (family med). Then you would apply for specialist training. NS is 8 years here, however, to be competitive for a consultant (attending) post at the end you would also at some point need to do a PhD so that is another 3 years. As an American this would be a ridiculous path for you to take. It is possible that even if you went to school here you wouldn't be eligible for jobs when the time came around and our training is twice the length of that in the US and we earn a lot less. We have very few jobs and more applicants per place than NS in the US. Even at the med school level a smaller % get in here.
 
bambi said:
Ok, well after that you would apply for med school. After med school we do 2 foundation years which includes 6 different 4 month jobs in various medical and surgical specialties and general practice (family med). Then you would apply for specialist training. NS is 8 years here, however, to be competitive for a consultant (attending) post at the end you would also at some point need to do a PhD so that is another 3 years. As an American this would be a ridiculous path for you to take. It is possible that even if you went to school here you wouldn't be eligible for jobs when the time came around and our training is twice the length of that in the US and we earn a lot less. We have very few jobs and more applicants per place than NS in the US. Even at the med school level a smaller % get in here.
Click to expand...

Neurosurgery is competitive but a PhD is a bit much really, not unless you're planning on an academic career. An MD or an MS/MPhil/MRes is fine if you just want an academic cv boost.

Also NS training is long in any country! You're looking at 8-10 years in the US (including subspecialization) anyways. And finally, if you practice NS or obstetrics in the states a large chunk of your paycheck will go towards indemnity insurance. That's thankfully not as big of a problem for us in the UK, so in terms of salary, it's all relative.
 
Chest Cutter said:
Neurosurgery is competitive but a PhD is a bit much really, not unless you're planning on an academic career. An MD or an MS/MPhil/MRes is fine if you just want an academic cv boost.

Also NS training is long in any country! You're looking at 8-10 years in the US (including subspecialization) anyways. And finally, if you practice NS or obstetrics in the states a large chunk of your paycheck will go towards indemnity insurance. That's thankfully not as big of a problem for us in the UK, so in terms of salary, it's all relative.
Click to expand...

So what would I do after getting my 2 bachelors here? Do I need to take the UKCAT? And then what do I study? I would be a postgraduate and I would really like to study at the University of Liverpool.
 
bambi said:
Ok, well after that you would apply for med school. After med school we do 2 foundation years which includes 6 different 4 month jobs in various medical and surgical specialties and general practice (family med). Then you would apply for specialist training. NS is 8 years here, however, to be competitive for a consultant (attending) post at the end you would also at some point need to do a PhD so that is another 3 years. As an American this would be a ridiculous path for you to take. It is possible that even if you went to school here you wouldn't be eligible for jobs when the time came around and our training is twice the length of that in the US and we earn a lot less. We have very few jobs and more applicants per place than NS in the US. Even at the med school level a smaller % get in here.
Click to expand...

It's 15 years of schooling here to become a neurosurgeon.
 
Chest Cutter said:
Neurosurgery is competitive but a PhD is a bit much really, not unless you're planning on an academic career. An MD or an MS/MPhil/MRes is fine if you just want an academic cv boost.

Also NS training is long in any country! You're looking at 8-10 years in the US (including subspecialization) anyways. And finally, if you practice NS or obstetrics in the states a large chunk of your paycheck will go towards indemnity insurance. That's thankfully not as big of a problem for us in the UK, so in terms of salary, it's all relative.
Click to expand...

You obviously haven't spent much time around any neurosurgeons. I don't know a single junior in the very large NS department at my hosp that doesn't have a PhD and if you ask any of them they will say you need it to be competitive for a consultant post.

NS in the US is 6-8 years. Some residencies are 6 years, most are 7 then a year fellowship would total 8! At least a year of those 8 years is research time so our actual clinical time in the UK is far longer.

Even with the extra insurance costs the majority of US neurosurgery attendings earn far more than our consultants. The exact money pretty much depends on how much spine you do. The attending earning the least where I did my elective earns about what a consultant at home does.
 
bambi said:
You obviously haven't spent much time around any neurosurgeons. I don't know a single junior in the very large NS department at my hosp that doesn't have a PhD and if you ask any of them they will say you need it to be competitive for a consultant post.

NS in the US is 6-8 years. Some residencies are 6 years, most are 7 then a year fellowship would total 8! At least a year of those 8 years is research time so our actual clinical time in the UK is far longer.

Even with the extra insurance costs the majority of US neurosurgery attendings earn far more than our consultants. The exact money pretty much depends on how much spine you do. The attending earning the least where I did my elective earns about what a consultant at home does.
Click to expand...

I have worked in neurosurgery, i did it back in my house year. Juniors in surgical specialties who do a PhD (who are NOT career academics) usually do it because they're not good enough to get an NTN without one. Nobody does it post NTN just to be competitive at consultant level and nobody pre-NTN thinks that far a head as their main focus is on getting an NTN.

If you're applying for a clinical post, having a 3 year gap in your training with no solid operating will hurt you more than the "PhD" after your name will earn you. If you are a higher surgical trainee in current times then you'll know how crippling that sounds. A PhD does not make you good at clinical and operative surgery... so why would they want you for a clinical post, where service commitment is priority? Whoever's been telling you that you can't get a consultant appointment without a PhD are probably non-academics trying to justify the 3 year gap they took in their training. Funny how there are people being appointed as consultants in more competitive surgical specialties without one.

In terms of salary, your statement suggests that you know exactly how much those surgeons earn. I find it odd that the US surgeons disclosed their financial earnings to an elective student... and that the UK surgeons are very open with you about their private practice. Unless you're their accountant or you have access to their bank statements I dont think you can make a fair comparison. I suspect that what you perceive to be greater earning in the US (bigger house, fancy car) is most likely just a representation of the difference in the standard of living in the US vs UK, which is a different issue altogether.
 
Chest Cutter said:
I have worked in neurosurgery, i did it back in my house year. Juniors in surgical specialties who do a PhD (who are NOT career academics) usually do it because they're not good enough to get an NTN without one. Nobody does it post NTN just to be competitive at consultant level and nobody pre-NTN thinks that far a head as their main focus is on getting an NTN.

If you're applying for a clinical post, having a 3 year gap in your training with no solid operating will hurt you more than the "PhD" after your name will earn you. If you are a higher surgical trainee in current times then you'll know how crippling that sounds. A PhD does not make you good at clinical and operative surgery... so why would they want you for a clinical post, where service commitment is priority? Whoever's been telling you that you can't get a consultant appointment without a PhD are probably non-academics trying to justify the 3 year gap they took in their training. Funny how there are people being appointed as consultants in more competitive surgical specialties without one.

In terms of salary, your statement suggests that you know exactly how much those surgeons earn. I find it odd that the US surgeons disclosed their financial earnings to an elective student... and that the UK surgeons are very open with you about their private practice. Unless you're their accountant or you have access to their bank statements I dont think you can make a fair comparison. I suspect that what you perceive to be greater earning in the US (bigger house, fancy car) is most likely just a representation of the difference in the standard of living in the US vs UK, which is a different issue altogether.
Click to expand...

Believe what you want but all of our NS juniors and at least a few of the current consultants have PhDs. I have heard there is the odd centre that doesn't like it but it isn't the case most places. Personally I don't want to do one. I agree it's silly to take the time out from clinical work but if I need one to get the job I want I will do one.

Yes, some people did disclose their salaries to me, again, believe what you like.
 
So what would I do after getting my 2 bachelors here? Do I need to take the UKCAT? And then what do I study? I would be a postgraduate and I would really like to study at the University of Liverpool.
I don't care how long it takes or if I need to get my PHD or not, all I know is that I want to live in England and be a neurosurgeon.
 
bambi said:
Believe what you want but all of our NS juniors and at least a few of the current consultants have PhDs. I have heard there is the odd centre that doesn't like it but it isn't the case most places. Personally I don't want to do one. I agree it's silly to take the time out from clinical work but if I need one to get the job I want I will do one.

Yes, some people did disclose their salaries to me, again, believe what you like.
Click to expand...

I suspect that you're centre is most likely an academic heavy centre, hence why there are a lot of consultants and juniors with PhD's most likely churning out research. Places like this exist in all surgical fields. People who want to do academics, specifically go to work at these places.

Trends have shifted a lot. 10-15 years ago, a PhD pretty much meant you had your choice of consultant posts. But now as the more favourable surgical procedures are the advanced / minimally invasive and subspecialised ones, it's the number of cases you've done in a particular area that makes you competitive. Thus, your logbook is now your most valuble asset. A PhD only confirms that you have experience in securing grants or funding for research, hence why it's favouralbe if applying for an academic post affiliated with a university. Evidence of general academic ability can usually be supplemented with a good number of papers in high impact journals or an MD, which allows clinical training alongside of research. Ideal for the surgical SpR who doesnt want to get rusty and take a massive pay cut!
 
MrsDewey said:
So what would I do after getting my 2 bachelors here? Do I need to take the UKCAT? And then what do I study? I would be a postgraduate and I would really like to study at the University of Liverpool.
I don't care how long it takes or if I need to get my PHD or not, all I know is that I want to live in England and be a neurosurgeon.
Click to expand...

What do you mean "what do I study?".... err, medicine.
Uni liverpool has a post grad entry program (4 year rather than 5 year course). Other uni's have similar programs. You'll have to contact the individual uni's to find out their entry requirements. You may have to take UKCAT... sorry I cant advise more on this but this came out after my time.

Once you're in medical school, spend time in NS departments during elective placements to see what it's like. Find out who the training program director is for NS in which ever deanery you're in and speak to THAT person specifically about what you need to do to get into NS. They'll know how the applications are scored. 😉

Things will probably change by the time you're ready to apply for NS training, so first I'd focus on getting into med school here. Then worry about the rest later.
 
MrsDewey said:
20,500 pounds!!!:scared: That's impossible!! The tier 4 student visa requires me to have that much in my bank account BEFORE applying for the visa!! Is there any cheaper way? Is it some how possible to become a citizen of the UK before I apply for school, I don't plan on moving back to the US at all?
Click to expand...

Well, I looked at med school prices in the US and they are at least $10,000 more (yes I converted the pounds to dollars) So med school in the UK seems like it will be cheaper than the US...But that doesn't mean I have a way to pay for it...Any help with links to scholarships, anyone?
 
MrsDewey said:
20,500 pounds!!!:scared: That's impossible!! The tier 4 student visa requires me to have that much in my bank account BEFORE applying for the visa!! Is there any cheaper way? Is it some how possible to become a citizen of the UK before I apply for school, I don't plan on moving back to the US at all?
Click to expand...

Sorry my dear, I don't think I can help you any more. I don't know of any cheaper ways to do it. Perhaps applying for scholarships may ease the costs. Maybe contact the university / faculty of medicine directly to see if there's any that you could apply for? Or if any previous applicants have been in your situation? Keep asking around here, there are a lot of north americans who come to the UK for training who post on SDN, they may be able to give you some advice.
 
Chest Cutter said:
Sorry my dear, I don't think I can help you any more. I don't know of any cheaper ways to do it. Perhaps applying for scholarships may ease the costs. Maybe contact the university / faculty of medicine directly to see if there's any that you could apply for? Or if any previous applicants have been in your situation? Keep asking around here, there are a lot of north americans who come to the UK for training who post on SDN, they may be able to give you some advice.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all of your help! A lot of the other people on forums have been no help at all! At least now I know exactly what I need to apply for!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Maverikk
US attendings who move to Ireland after completing training
Replies
0
Views
3K
Maverikk
Maverikk
S
Need advice! Looking into applying in Ireland next year from the US
as a non traditional applicant
Replies
0
Views
3K
siorcacaillte
S
D
Landing a job after clearing ORE exam as an overseas dentist
Replies
0
Views
4K
Doge2022
D
michellenguyen17
Applying to the UK from the US with a bachelor's degree
Replies
5
Views
5K
futureneuro7
F
T
US > Caribbean > UK FY1 with Right to Work
Replies
0
Views
2K
TheDude_
T
Top Bottom