All Doctors Need To Read This

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Shellabella,

I don't know what your educational background is, but it is quite obvious that your scientific acumen leaves much to be desired. I am a physician and most of the posters here are either physicians or medical students with years of training in the basic medical sciences, epidemiology and use of the scientific method. What you fail to understand is that we do not refute the authors' opinions because we are closed minded. We refute them because they have been PROVEN to be false. Please do a little independent research instead of relying on the perverse rantings of a person who is obviously either lying, delusional or ignorant. 🙄
 
PainDr said:
Shellabella,

I don't know what your educational background is, but it is quite obvious that your scientific acumen leaves much to be desired. I am a physician and most of the posters here are either physicians or medical students with years of training in the basic medical sciences, epidemiology and use of the scientific method. What you fail to understand is that we do not refute the authors' opinions because we are closed minded. We refute them because they have been PROVEN to be false. Please do a little independent research instead of relying on the perverse rantings of a person who is obviously either lying, delusional or ignorant. 🙄

PainDr,

I said again and again I have not done the research yet, nor do I personally espouse the views on the site. While you admit to not knowing my educational background, in the same line you go on to insult it.

I posted these links to start a discussion, because in all my classes as a biology major, I had not been introduced to the dissident side. We are all taught to think critically from all sides of an issue, so I thought it would make an interesting discussion.

What I found surprising is the hostility this was met with, which I am sure no one reading this thread has failed to notice. Many people posted only with the intention of calling me ignorant and stupid.

I can tell everyone that if a patient ever questions your views, don't just say "obviously you are not a doctor." It feels pretty crappy.

Thanks for reading.
 
wow, shellabella is a true idiot. I wish I had the energy to refute your ridiculous comments, but frankly I don't have the time.
 
Check out this testimonial from the site you linked to:

"...I went on a new combination of drugs. My speech was slurred and I kept losing my equilibrium. When I fell down a flight of stairs at my house, that was the last straw. I just stopped taking them. My T cells went down and my viral load went up, but I felt healthy again."

Hello???? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. As soon as this guy gets sick he'll be fighting for his life.
 
shellabella said:
PainDr,

I said again and again I have not done the research yet, nor do I personally espouse the views on the site. While you admit to not knowing my educational background, in the same line you go on to insult it.

I posted these links to start a discussion, because in all my classes as a biology major, I had not been introduced to the dissident side. We are all taught to think critically from all sides of an issue, so I thought it would make an interesting discussion.

What I found surprising is the hostility this was met with, which I am sure no one reading this thread has failed to notice. Many people posted only with the intention of calling me ignorant and stupid.

I can tell everyone that if a patient ever questions your views, don't just say "obviously you are not a doctor." It feels pretty crappy.

Thanks for reading.


I'm sorry that you feel as though the response was hostile, but the tone of your original post was implicitly antagonistic, i.e., suggesting that all doctors need to read and refute a website containing relatively poor quality scientific information. You took a passive/aggressive approach and everyone here can recognise that.

Pain Dr didn't criticise your educational background, but , rather , questioned your ability to differentiate scientific fact from pseudoscience. Since you haven't actually offered any opinions, it's impossible for any of us to know how well you evaluate scientific information.

I agree that one needs to be able to think critically from all sides of an issue, but it's best to stick to arguments which have at least some validity. The site that you linked is full of factual errors as well as errors of omission. The quality of Maggiore's site is sufficiently poor that you might as well have linked us to a site suggesting that HIV was brought to Earth by aliens and asked us to refute that claim.

Your post did lead to an interesting discussion. Plenty of posters provided opinions and links which refute what Maggiore has to say very effectively.

Regarding your final statement: I agree with you. It's not right for any of us to be condescending to our patients. On the other hand, consider this: many of us have/will put in 10+ years of training AFTER university to do what we do. Nowadays, it's common for patients who've read a website or two to come into a physician's office thinking that they know just as much about medicine as the physician whose spent a huge chunk of his/her life studying medicine. IMHO, that's almost as condescending as one of us talking down to our patients.

Here's a site that I suggest you read: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html
"Argument by question" and "Argument from false authority" come to mind in the context of your side of the discussion.
 
russellb said:
I'm sorry that you feel as though the response was hostile, but the tone of your original post was implicitly antagonistic, i.e. suggesting that all doctors need to read a website containing relatively poor quality scientific information. You took a passive/aggressive approach and everyone here can recognise that.

Pain Dr didn't criticise your educational background, but , rather , questioned your ability to differentiate scientific fact from pseudoscience. Since you haven't actually offered any opinions, it's impossible for any of us to know how well you evaluate scientific information.

I agree that you need to be able to think critically from all sides of an issue, but it's best to stick to arguments which have at least some validity. The site that you linked is full of factual errors as well as errors of omission. The quality of Maggiore's site is sufficiently poor that you might as well have linked us to a site suggesting that HIV was brought to Earth by aliens and asked us to refute that claim.

Your post did lead to an interesting discussion. Plenty of posters provided opinions and links which refute what Maggiore has to say very effectively.

Regarding your final statement: I agree with you. It's not right for any of us to be condescending to our patients. On the other hand, consider this: many of us have/will put in 10+ years of training AFTER university to do what we do. Nowadays, it's common for patients who've read a website or two to come into a physician's office thinking that they know just as much about medicine as the physician whose spent a huge chunk of his/her life studying medicine. IMHO, that's almost as condescending as one of us talking down to our patients.

Here's a site that I suggest you read: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html
"Argument by question" and "Argument from false authority" come to mind in the context of your side of the discussion.


I agree, and realized too late, that my initial post was sensationalist. I was just excited and lost my scientific cool.

I suppose I found the woman's personal story interesting and compelling, although I do recognize the perils of testimonials.

Certainly, lots of posters provided comments that will be helpful when I get my butt to the library to do my own research. Thanks to you, russellb, for the link.
 
shellabella said:
I agree, and realized too late, that my initial post was sensationalist. I was just excited and lost my scientific cool.

I suppose I found the woman's personal story interesting and compelling, although I do recognize the perils of testimonials.

Certainly, lots of posters provided comments that will be helpful when I get my butt to the library to do my own research. Thanks to you, russellb, for the link.

It's good that you can recognise why the response to you seemed aggressive and you seem ready to learn from it 🙂

Testimonials are very compelling. They're basically advertisements for a particular point of view. As physicians who try to practice in a scientific manner, we must be able to take testimonials with a vey large grain of salt. They are captivating, but there are virtually always crucial details left out of testimonials. When those details are filled in, the testimonial loses its appeal.

I'm glad that you liked that link 😎
I've found it helpful on numerous occasions.
 
shellabella said:
hi gaslady,
first of all, you don't have to worry about giving the author revenues, because her whole book is on the website, free of charge. i realize the info i have given is one-sided-- but that is because everyone else's view is the polar opposite, and this is the dissident view. like i said, i havent researched her stances yet, and i was offering food for thought for everyone.

when i first read her book, i was nauseous, because it went against everything i was taught about AIDS, but the more i considered her arguments, the more intrigued i was.

i would NEVER encourage people to have unprotected sex, nor does the author. there are plenty of sexually transmitted diseases people need to protect themselves from. Suggesting that offering an alternative view on HIV/AIDS encourages people to have unprotected sex is not fair and distracts from the main argument.

as for ignorant patients, this author is not ignorant. she has spent a LOT of time researching her position, so why not consider what she has to say (by reading her book) and THEN decide you disagree? this is what science is all about.

scientists and doctors are not perfect. general consensus has been wrong in the past, and consensus on it's own does not prove something is true. i urge you to at least consider the ideas in the book before calling the author ignorant.

I would argue that by promoting the myth that HIV doesn't cause AIDS you are in a way taking away a big reason for people to practice safe sex with a condom. There are other sexually transmitted diseases but most of them curable and the ones that aren't although bothersome, are not life threatening (genital warts). In addition, there are other means of preventing pregnancy other than condoms, you don't need a condom to do that.

The reason why the dissident view hasn't been covered in your courses is because HIV causing AIDS is a fact and it falls into the realm of public knowledge. This discussion has no place in a biology class. When you write a scientific paper or any kind of academic essay, anything that is in the public realm of general knowledge or consensus does not require citation. HIV causing AIDS is one such example.

As to considering the author's ideas... I did and they're wrong. There was enough misinformation on one page of that website to show me and anyone with any kind of scientific background or knowledge that.
 
shellabella said:
so where does it go wrong?
It's interesting that when "Southerndoc" blew you off you had all these retorts but when others actually refuted your claims both in paragraph form and point-by-point you just glossed over them with no response and kept making the same claims with the same arguments. Did you even read the responses from "thewebthsp" or "Gleevec"? I'd like to hear your arguments against the facts that they have brought forth.

thewebthsp said:
Some skepticism is indicative of an intelligent mind. All science is fallible and based on empiricism.

That being said the OP's post is very one-sided. LAV (lymphandeopathy associated virus) is a highly empirically supported cause of AIDS which in 1987 was declared to be one and the same as HTLVIII (which is what Gallo called it) and renamed HIV.

The French discovered LAV prior to Gallo, found the association between it and AIDS, and published their work in Science (I believe) in 1983, although they claimed it _might_ be the cause, not that it _was_ the cause. Gallo was a jerk by claiming the french results as his own, and by calling the media in. But that doesn't make the strong association between HIV and Aids disappear. Many T-Cells are killed in AIDS by side responses of the immune system due to the lysogenic infection by HIV. In lysogenic/productive infection the cells release virus through exocytosis and have it in their genome, but don't apoptotically die. Hepaitits B does this too, and because it inserts itself near oncogenes, it promotes hepatocellular carcinoma. In mono and herpes, these viruses can disable some MHCII genes and so are rendered less sensitive to the immune system, harboring latent infections for life.

Mono in fact also infects the immune system (B-cells mainly and maybe explaining its horrible symptoms), but because T-cells recognize that some of the B cells are not functioning properly (through partial MHCII class recognition) it can cause them to die via cell-cell signaling, and stops viral replication through production of cytokines (including alpha and gamma interferon).

Mono can cause cancers (like Hodgkins lymphoma) due to overproliferation of the cells it infects for life, and thus systemic disease much in the same way HIV does, although apparently cancer is less likely than AIDS post HIV.

Gleevec said:
Quote:
1. HIV is a retrovirus. Few, if any, retroviruses are shown to cause disease in humans, in fact, the healthy human body normally has hundreds in its system. Retroviruses are not cytotoxic. So how does HIV kill T-cells?


It is true HIV is a retrovirus, but the remainder of your extrapolations are faulty logic. There are only a few KNOWN retroviruses in humans, HTLV 1 and 2, both of which cause leukemias and lymphomas. The mechanism of cytotoxicity is known, and it has been shown in lab tests that specific molecules of the HIV virus bind to specific molecules on the surface of T cells.


Quote:
2. AIDS is not a new illness, it is a category of old illnesses, all with their own specific, scientific causes that do not require the virus HIV. The way AIDS is defined, however, makes it seem there is a one-to-one correlation between HIV and AIDS:
Pneumonia + negative HIV test = pneumonia
Pneumonia + positive HIV test = AIDS


You are partially correct. What you are describing are immunodeficiency diseases, which have been around a long time. What you fail to mention is the mechanism by which the immunodeficiency is caused. As opposed to a genetic immunodeficiency, AIDS is caused by a virus killing T cells resulting in ID. Furthermore, the TYPE of pneumonia caused by HIV is particularly important. Pneumocystis carinii doesnt cause penumonia in non-immunocompromised patients, but it DOES in immunocompromised patients such as those with AIDS or another ID disease.

Quote:
3. Most healthy people have had infections with cell-killing viruses like those that cause herpes and mononucleosis. These viruses infect millions of T cells-- up to half of all immune cells?without causing T cell depletion and without causing AIDS.


Herpes and mono are different classes of viruses that replicate using a different mechanism that doesnt generally involve T cell depletion.

Quote:
4. The AIDS test is not specific and there are many factors causing a false positive, including pregnancy, the flu, flu vaccination, herpes, and about 60 others.


This is a problem with the test, not with the theory behind it. Sometimes your fire alarm will go off randomly, but that doesnt mean that the fires wont cause damage and death if they were allowed to spread.

Quote:
5. HIV virus has not been isolated from fresh plasma.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...st_uids=1708933

Quote:
6. In order for the ELISA to work in testing for HIV (which only tests for antibodies that react with HIV, not virus), the blood has to be diluted 400 times. Otherwise, everyone tests positive.


Yet again, this is a problem with the ELISA. In labs however, they have done ELISA and Western Blots, which combined have shown the presence of HIV. The dilution helps to mitigate the cross reactivity.

Quote:
7. There are demonstrated ways of sufficiently impairing one?s immune system that can invite AIDS defining illnesses and that do not rely on the HIV virus, like malnutrition and lack of sleep (think Africa), drugs including AZT, crack, cocaine, heroin, and nitrites, exposure to chronic infections with venereal disease and others like TB, malaria, hepatitis, chronic anxiety, panic, stress, and depression. A profound fear of AIDS is enough to cause people who repeatedly test HIV negative to develop physical symptoms of AIDS.


Yes, the things you speak of are immunodeficiency diseases, as is AIDS. But as a I said above its the MECHANISM by which the immunodeficiency is generated that makes HIV unique among those factors you listed. And yes you mention the placebo effect and intern's syndrome, but you can cause that for ANY disease.
 
shellabella said:
It is a bit overwhelming to respond to all the posts, but I will eventually. Anyway, the book by Christine Maggiore lays out the points more eloquently than I have. I encourage everyone to read it-- you can read the whole thing, What If Everything You Thought You Knew About AIDS Was Wrong?, on the www.aliveandwell.org website. Even if you choose not to agree with her, someday you might have a patient who does. I think if you give the book a chance you might be surprised-- she has really done her homework. While I don't yet espouse her views, because I haven't extensively researched it, it's good food for thought.


Resurrecting an old thread becasue of a story I just read:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-eliza24sep24,1,1546664.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Maggiore, whose work is mentioned in this thread, is the subject of the article, as it appears as though her 3 year old daughter has died of AIDS related complications (PCP, perhaps).
 
What truly troubles me about pseudoscientific arguments, is that although, they seldmon get to first base in the scientific community, they can become accepted by significant portions of society. Case in point "Intelligent" Design. There is equally idiotic pseudoscience endorsed by no less than the president of the United States. 😱 :scared:
 
shellabella said:
PainDr,

I said again and again I have not done the research yet, nor do I personally espouse the views on the site. While you admit to not knowing my educational background, in the same line you go on to insult it.

I posted these links to start a discussion, because in all my classes as a biology major, I had not been introduced to the dissident side. We are all taught to think critically from all sides of an issue, so I thought it would make an interesting discussion.

What I found surprising is the hostility this was met with, which I am sure no one reading this thread has failed to notice. Many people posted only with the intention of calling me ignorant and stupid.

I can tell everyone that if a patient ever questions your views, don't just say "obviously you are not a doctor." It feels pretty crappy.

Thanks for reading.

That's because you are ignorant and stupid if you believe this. Sure, we are scientists and rational individuals who adopt the scientific method, and as such people are more than open to critique of current scientific belief. However, when evidence for a scientific theory is overwhelming, the evidence to the contrary must be equally strong. It is obvious from these posts that the author is severely lacking in scientific knowledge and data to support her claims. What she offers is a host of unrelated observations and witicisms along with some mis-information about disease process/scientific facts to support her claim. Why should anyone take you seriously here? If I were to post a thread about gravity being an incorrect scientific theory and supported this by saying that 1)we have never directly observed it, and have only observed its effects 2) we have never identified a gravity particle and 3)the mathematics behind the explanation of the theory don't always hold true (the difference between quantum physics and general relativity, for instance) it would in no way refute the validity of the theory, because the evidence is overwhelming for the existence of gravity [and notice that all of my critiques were true statements, though either tangentally related to gravity or irellevant to the discussion of its validity]. As a philosopher and a scientist, I demand rational arguments and testible/reproducable hypothesis for an argument to be accepted. If you can't provide a cogent argument of this type then there is no reason for people to refute you. Why should anyone waste their time debating something for which the scientific evidence is overwhelming, unless something equally overwhelming arises. This is not being closeminded or ignorant of the facts, what it is doing is accepting a position based on evidence and leaving that position open to question in the face of contrary evidence atleast equal in magnitude to the supportive evidence. Oh, and you can never individually verify that each and every piece of science is correct (the knowledge base is far too great and each individuals intelligence too limited), this is why we have a peer reviewed system, so that when something becomes scientific knowledge it has been tested and reviewed by many for validity.
 
Lol, love when old threads are resurrected and the topic continues as it did, even if the original poster has long since vamoosed 😀
 
russellb said:
Resurrecting an old thread becasue of a story I just read:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-eliza24sep24,1,1546664.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Maggiore, whose work is mentioned in this thread, is the subject of the article, as it appears as though her 3 year old daughter has died of AIDS related complications (PCP, perhaps).

Wow. That woman should have her children taken away.

Here is the article russellb posted so everyone doesn't have to register to read it..


A Mother's Denial, a Daughter's Death
By Charles Ornstein and Daniel Costello, Times Staff Writers


Christine Maggiore was in prime form, engaging and articulate, when she explained to a Phoenix radio host in late March why she didn't believe HIV caused AIDS.

The HIV-positive mother of two laid out matter-of-factly why, even while pregnant, she hadn't taken HIV medications, and why she had never tested her children for the virus.

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"Our children have excellent records of health," Maggiore said on the Air America program when asked about 7-year-old Charlie and 3-year-old Eliza Jane Scovill. "They've never had respiratory problems, flus, intractable colds, ear infections, nothing. So, our choices, however radical they may seem, are extremely well-founded."

Seven weeks later, Eliza Jane was dead.

The cause, according to a Sept. 15 report by the Los Angeles County coroner, was AIDS-related pneumonia.

These days, given advances in HIV care, it's highly unusual for any young child to die of AIDS. What makes Eliza Jane's death even more striking is that her mother is a high-profile, charismatic leader in a movement that challenges the basic medical understanding and treatment of acquired immune deficiency syndrome.

Even now, Maggiore, a 49-year-old former clothing executive from Van Nuys, stands by the views she has espoused on "The Ricki Lake Show" and ABC's "20/20," and in Newsweek and Mothering magazines. She and her husband, Robin Scovill, said they have concerns about the coroner's findings and are sending the report to an outside reviewer.

"I have been brought to my emotional knees, but not in regard to the science of this topic," said Maggiore, author of an iconoclastic book about AIDS that has sold 50,000 copies. "I am a devastated, broken, grieving mother, but I am not second-guessing or questioning my understanding of the issue."

One doctor involved with Eliza Jane's care told The Times he has been second-guessing himself since the day he learned of the little girl's death.

Dr. Jay Gordon, a Santa Monica pediatrician who had treated Eliza Jane since she was a year old, said he should have demanded that she be tested for human immunodeficiency virus when, 11 days before she died, Maggiore brought her in with an apparent ear infection.

"It's possible that the whole situation could have been changed if one of the doctors involved — one of the three doctors involved — had intervened," said Gordon, who himself acknowledges that HIV causes AIDS. "It's hindsight, Monday-morning quarterbacking, whatever you want to call it. Do I think I'm blameless in this? No, I'm not blameless."

Mainstream AIDS organizations, medical experts and ethicists, long confounded and distressed by this small but outspoken dissident movement, say Eliza Jane's death crystallizes their fears. The dissenters' message, they say, is not just wrong, it's deadly.

"This was a preventable death," said Dr. James Oleske, a New Jersey physician who never examined Eliza Jane but has treated hundreds of HIV-positive children. "I can tell you without any doubt that, at the outset of her illness, if she was appropriately evaluated, she would have been appropriately treated. She would not have died.

"You can't write a more sad and tragic story," Oleske said.

It is a story not just about Maggiore and her family but about failures among child welfare officials and well-known Los Angeles County doctors.

Among the physicians involved in Eliza Jane's care was Dr. Paul Fleiss, a popular if sometimes unconventional Los Feliz pediatrician who gained some publicity in the 1990s as the father of the notorious Hollywood madam Heidi Fleiss. He was sentenced to three years' probation for conspiring to shield the profits from his daughter's call-girl ring from the IRS, among other things.

"I don't understand it," Fleiss said of Eliza Jane's death, "because I've never seen her sick or with anything resembling what she supposedly died of…. I don't believe I could have done anything to change this outcome."

Fleiss, who said he could be "convinced either way" on whether HIV causes AIDS, has known the family since before Eliza Jane was born. In 2000, the county Department of Children and Family Services investigated Maggiore and Scovill after a tipster complained that Charlie was in danger because he hadn't been tested for HIV and was breast-fed.

The department found no evidence of neglect, based partly on reassurances from Fleiss, according to an official report reviewed by The Times.

Now, with the death of Eliza Jane, authorities say they are poised to act.
 
Tiki said:
Wow. That woman should have her children taken away.

Here is the article russellb posted so everyone doesn't have to register to read it..

Unfortunate and a tragedy. Even though the mother is at her liberty to believe whatever she wishes to, a court of law goes by evidence, not by anectodotal belief.
 
I think if we step back and look at the big picture, the OP has demonstrated perfectly what happens when people do not have the critical thinking skills necessary to evaluate the information that can be found on the internet. This proves to be challenging because more and more patients will be turning to the internet to find health care information. Perhaps as care providers (and future care providers), we should help our patients learn which web sites they can turn to for reliable information. Imagine the potential disasters if newly diagnosed HIV+ patients read this book and believed that HIV was a fabrication of some sort, and then continued to spread it.

To the OP: if you are SO convinced, would you allow me to inject the blood of a patient that tested positive for HIV into you? I certainly hope not.
 
What is your agenda? Why do you keep trying to press your conspiracy- theory hollistic bullsh*t on this website. Don't you realize that you're are speaking with some of the brightest minds in the country and we can refute nearly every one of your arguments with published scientific empiricism? Get off this website and try to hock your friend's 2-cent book on some late-night infomercial. We've all got better things to do than read your posts- like AIDS research to figure out better treatment for a very real and horrible disease.
 
People like this woman make me so mad. They always appear on these day-time tv shows and in women's homemaking magazines in order to pray on the intellectually-deprived and scientifically-unsophisticated. Then, next thing you know, all the soccer moms are talking about how AIDS doesn't exist and its just god's rath upon the gays and the folks in Africa and blah blah blah. If you came to my hospital and tried to explain your point of view to me, I'd punch you.
 
I look towards "The Shawshank Redemption" for guidance....

"Remember, Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things."

And also -

"Hope is a dangerous thing. Hope can drive a man insane."

It can also drive a woman to wish so hard that she won't get AIDS that her kid dies. Thus, it is a magical thing.

I'd also like to point out that the physicians who treated this loony and let her get away with this should lose their licenses. It is very easy to say "Um... Look, I can't treat somebody for HIV who refuses to take any drugs besides herbs. Also, you should be arrested for child endangerment. See ya."

On edit : Gordon's ok but the other two doctors sound like quacks.
 
thewebthsp said:
Unfortunate and a tragedy. Even though the mother is at her liberty to believe whatever she wishes to, a court of law goes by evidence, not by anectodotal belief.
She should've been declared insane and had her children taken from her.
 
If HIV doesn't cause AIDS, why does the website advocate treatment options? If it just sits around, or worse, if the test doesn't even work, why is there a need to "restore" health in HIV-positive patients?

Reading on the founder's experience (http://www.aliveandwell.org/html/top_bar_pages/aboutus.html#WORDS) kind of proves that stuff we learn in biostats: she, without any risk factors and probably low clinical index of suspicion (i.e., low pre-test probability) was tested as part of "routine" exam, and tested positive. That's still low post-test probability anyway...
 
It's quite sad that none of the recent posters to this message were smart enough to figure out that the original poster, shellabella, hasn't been active on this thread since May 2004...and yet you are all still screaming at and arguing with her. Maybe she can receive your rants through keyboard telepathy? But since you are all so intellectual, you should know there is no such thing.

Or is there?

The LA Times is not the beginning and end of truth, contrary to what intellectually superior med students may believe. I would invite you people who have jumped to conclusions about the tragedy of Christine Maggiore to read the non-censored version of the account here:

http://www.aras.ab.ca/ej.html

Perfectly healthy children with no symptoms of sickness do not just drop dead of AIDS suddenly within a week or two's time. One comment on the story:
"Eliza Jane’s lungs were clear and she didn’t have a fever according to the three doctors who diagnosed her with an ear infection. Based on this information one wonders how the Los Angeles County coroner came up with AIDS-related pneumonia as the cause of death.
You don't need to be a doctor, scientist or medical examiner to realize that Eliza Jane was more likely the victim of a severe adverse reaction to amoxicillin rather than the victim of HIV."


Christine Maggiore is also not a lone loony in the wilderness of "ignorance" as some of you have insinuated. Here's a list of credentialed doctors, scientists, journalists, and other professionals who have sharper critical thinking skills than you:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm

And more...Nobel Prize winners, celebrated scientists, and others whose words are disturbing...from whatever side you look at it:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/aidsquotes.htm


I'm glad none of you are my doctor! And I feel sorry for any patient that has the horrible misfortune to ever receive care of any type from you.
 
blah blah blah get off our forum.


HerdMentality said:
It's quite sad that none of the recent posters to this message were smart enough to figure out that the original poster, shellabella, hasn't been active on this thread since May 2004...and yet you are all still screaming at and arguing with her. Maybe she can receive your rants through keyboard telepathy? But since you are all so intellectual, you should know there is no such thing.

Or is there?

The LA Times is not the beginning and end of truth, contrary to what intellectually superior med students may believe. I would invite you people who have jumped to conclusions about the tragedy of Christine Maggiore to read the non-censored version of the account here:

http://www.aras.ab.ca/ej.html

Perfectly healthy children with no symptoms of sickness do not just drop dead of AIDS suddenly within a week or two's time. One comment on the story:
"Eliza Jane’s lungs were clear and she didn’t have a fever according to the three doctors who diagnosed her with an ear infection. Based on this information one wonders how the Los Angeles County coroner came up with AIDS-related pneumonia as the cause of death.
You don't need to be a doctor, scientist or medical examiner to realize that Eliza Jane was more likely the victim of a severe adverse reaction to amoxicillin rather than the victim of HIV."


Christine Maggiore is also not a lone loony in the wilderness of "ignorance" as some of you have insinuated. Here's a list of credentialed doctors, scientists, journalists, and other professionals who have sharper critical thinking skills than you:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm

And more...Nobel Prize winners, celebrated scientists, and others whose words are disturbing...from whatever side you look at it:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/aidsquotes.htm


I'm glad none of you are my doctor! And I feel sorry for any patient that has the horrible misfortune to ever receive care of any type from you.
 
HerdMentality said:
It's quite sad that none of the recent posters to this message were smart enough to figure out that the original poster, shellabella, hasn't been active on this thread since May 2004...and yet you are all still screaming at and arguing with her. Maybe she can receive your rants through keyboard telepathy? But since you are all so intellectual, you should know there is no such thing.

Or is there?

The LA Times is not the beginning and end of truth, contrary to what intellectually superior med students may believe. I would invite you people who have jumped to conclusions about the tragedy of Christine Maggiore to read the non-censored version of the account here:

http://www.aras.ab.ca/ej.html

Perfectly healthy children with no symptoms of sickness do not just drop dead of AIDS suddenly within a week or two's time. One comment on the story:
"Eliza Jane’s lungs were clear and she didn’t have a fever according to the three doctors who diagnosed her with an ear infection. Based on this information one wonders how the Los Angeles County coroner came up with AIDS-related pneumonia as the cause of death.
You don't need to be a doctor, scientist or medical examiner to realize that Eliza Jane was more likely the victim of a severe adverse reaction to amoxicillin rather than the victim of HIV."


Christine Maggiore is also not a lone loony in the wilderness of "ignorance" as some of you have insinuated. Here's a list of credentialed doctors, scientists, journalists, and other professionals who have sharper critical thinking skills than you:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/rethinkers.htm

And more...Nobel Prize winners, celebrated scientists, and others whose words are disturbing...from whatever side you look at it:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/aidsquotes.htm


I'm glad none of you are my doctor! And I feel sorry for any patient that has the horrible misfortune to ever receive care of any type from you.
Don't think *your* doctor doesn't talk about you behind your back after s/he leaves the room...
 
And more...Nobel Prize winners, celebrated scientists, and others whose words are disturbing...from whatever side you look at it:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/aidsquotes.htm

This document purports to show that there is a weak relationship between HIV and AIDS. First of all, a large number of statements are from magazines and other sources that could hardly be considered reputable. The quotations are not attributed to any one person, which is a nice way to shirk responsibility. Combine this with the fact that many statements are outdated, and you begin to see how this site is trying to mislead people. I only found one Nobel Prize winner who made a statement regarding HIV, but whose words were made in 1988, not long enough after the causative association between HIV and AIDS was discovered. This is clearly taking a Nobel Prize winner's words out of context. Besides this, there are many statements making references to celebrated prize winners that DO NOT SUPPORT what the website is trying to say. There is a lot of dubious information on the sites you have linked.

If you get beyond the HIV causes AIDS debate, there is some interesting information regarding treatments. But coming from this website, I'm not sure how much of it can be trusted.
 
Zeloc,
On closer examination, you'll find that the quotations ARE in fact attributed to one person. They are grouped together with the magazine or publication immediately below the quote, then the speaker's name is listed below all of the individual quotations (ie...one speaker could have made numerous quotes in numerous publications...the publications are cited beneath the respective quotation and then at the end the author who made all of the above quotes is named).

In regards to the Nobel Prize Winner, Kerry Mullis....his only quote in not from 1988 and his words are hardly taken out of context. In fact in his own autobiography, Dancing Naked in the Mind Field, published in 2000 (not 1988, mind you) he writes about his viewpoint that HIV does not cause AIDS. And he is the inventor of PCR technology that has been used by the medical establishment to "detect HIV" in patients. He has also appeared in a recent (2004) documentary that questions the HIV=AIDS hypothesis. Somehow, I don't think his views and words are outdated or taken out of context.

Of course, he is just ONE of many learned scientists, doctors, journalists, and other professionals who do not take the established, consesus view on this topic. To dismiss them all is the height of arrogance and immaturity.

I hardly think a site like this, which only a miniscule part of the world's population knows even exists, is misleading people. Rather, it is the medical machine and mass media, which has convinced everyone that hiv is the single biggest danger to the health and well-being of people around the globe, that has misled us.

If you believe that site is nonsense, I invite you to go beyond it and research the topic for yourself independently and investigately, without the crutch of "consensus view" and "everybody knows that hiv causes AIDS" as your foundation.

As a medical professional, or soon to be medical professional, you may or may not want to view this link:
http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1128845313.shtml


zeloc said:
This document purports to show that there is a weak relationship between HIV and AIDS. First of all, a large number of statements are from magazines and other sources that could hardly be considered reputable. The quotations are not attributed to any one person, which is a nice way to shirk responsibility. Combine this with the fact that many statements are outdated, and you begin to see how this site is trying to mislead people. I only found one Nobel Prize winner who made a statement regarding HIV, but whose words were made in 1988, not long enough after the causative association between HIV and AIDS was discovered. This is clearly taking a Nobel Prize winner's words out of context. Besides this, there are many statements making references to celebrated prize winners that DO NOT SUPPORT what the website is trying to say. There is a lot of dubious information on the sites you have linked.

If you get beyond the HIV causes AIDS debate, there is some interesting information regarding treatments. But coming from this website, I'm not sure how much of it can be trusted.
 
HerdMentality said:
Zeloc,
On closer examination, you'll find that the quotations ARE in fact attributed to one person. They are grouped together with the magazine or publication immediately below the quote, then the speaker's name is listed below all of the individual quotations (ie...one speaker could have made numerous quotes in numerous publications...the publications are cited beneath the respective quotation and then at the end the author who made all of the above quotes is named).

In regards to the Nobel Prize Winner, Kerry Mullis....his only quote in not from 1988 and his words are hardly taken out of context. In fact in his own autobiography, Dancing Naked in the Mind Field, published in 2000 (not 1988, mind you) he writes about his viewpoint that HIV does not cause AIDS. And he is the inventor of PCR technology that has been used by the medical establishment to "detect HIV" in patients. He has also appeared in a recent (2004) documentary that questions the HIV=AIDS hypothesis. Somehow, I don't think his views and words are outdated or taken out of context.

Of course, he is just ONE of many learned scientists, doctors, journalists, and other professionals who do not take the established, consesus view on this topic. To dismiss them all is the height of arrogance and immaturity.

I hardly think a site like this, which only a miniscule part of the world's population knows even exists, is misleading people. Rather, it is the medical machine and mass media, which has convinced everyone that hiv is the single biggest danger to the health and well-being of people around the globe, that has misled us.

If you believe that site is nonsense, I invite you to go beyond it and research the topic for yourself independently and investigately, without the crutch of "consensus view" and "everybody knows that hiv causes AIDS" as your foundation.

As a medical professional, or soon to be medical professional, you may or may not want to view this link:
http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1128845313.shtml

oh my god, u're making my head hurt. it isn't dogma that says HIV causes AIDS, it's actual scientific evidence showing tons and tons of correlations between treating HIV infections and treating AIDS. correlation between incidence of HIV infection and AIDS, etc, transmission of HIV and eventual onset of AIDS, use of retrovirals upon needle stick in preventing HIV transmission and preventing transmission of AIDS, etc. I'm almost scared to look at some of these sites in fear that they are somewhat similar to the original points, being 99% devoid of understanding of basic immunological concepts and devoid of knowledge of what immunodeficiency really means.
 
well, not as bad as i thought it would be. the understanding seems to be old. There is questioning of why African and European/American epidemics are so different, and we actually know that: the strains of HIV are different. Most studies focus on the American/European HIV-1 if I remember my immuno right, not HIV-2. and there are dozens of different viral subtypes. Which explains the phenomenon of superinfection.

The referenced abstract also brings up the point of non-immunodeficiency aspects of AIDS, which we also understand. That's not actually a result of AIDS, it is a result of HIV infection, and there are 4 different diseases that can result. This we learned in Neuro, not immuno, since it is neurological diseases and has to be included in differentials for things like dementia and motor issues. A couple of them tend to occur in late stages of HIV infection, I know one occurs much earlier before AIDS appears. I'm lazy and don't feel like taking out my neuro notes to learn more.

Anyway, the abstract itself does present valid scientific questions from the early 90s, but the problems brought up don't really exist anymore, at least at quick glance. I'll take a look again later to see if there are any questions which we haven't acquired enough information yet.
 
Rendar5 said:
oh my god, u're making my head hurt. it isn't dogma that says HIV causes AIDS, it's actual scientific evidence showing tons and tons of correlations between treating HIV infections and treating AIDS. correlation between incidence of HIV infection and AIDS, etc, transmission of HIV and eventual onset of AIDS, use of retrovirals upon needle stick in preventing HIV transmission and preventing transmission of AIDS, etc. I'm almost scared to look at some of these sites in fear that they are somewhat similar to the original points, being 99% devoid of understanding of basic immunological concepts and devoid of knowledge of what immunodeficiency really means.

Don't be so hasty. There are a lot of excellent scientists who have doubted the link between HIV and AIDS. The naturopaths are quacks and they're easy to discount, but exceptional scientists like Peter Duesberg from Berkeley are intelligent men and also experts in the field. I don't agree with Duesberg, but he's certainly intelligent enough to have his voice heard.

Here is an interview with him:

http://www.sumeria.net/aids/deuspn.html
 
fedor said:
Don't be so hasty. There are a lot of excellent scientists who have doubted the link between HIV and AIDS. The naturopaths are quacks and they're easy to discount, but exceptional scientists like Peter Duesberg from Berkeley are intelligent men and also experts in the field. I don't agree with Duesberg, but he's certainly intelligent enough to have his voice heard.

Here is an interview with him:

http://www.sumeria.net/aids/deuspn.html

Yeah, you're right. I assumed that was like the OP which had just BS science stuff. I was reading more of Duesberg's theories and the more up-to-date stuff and he actually is attacking the current holes in research Though one of the questions he raised about non-randomness in a 2003 thing and about increased mortality among anti-HIV drug users seemed easily understood by understanding the primary methods of transmissions/primary barriers to transmission in the US vs. Africa and latency biases (generalized HIV testing would produce a healthier group of people for the control than finding HIV-carriers who show up because of clinical symptoms).

Still, they were all the correct questions to ask. So my head doesn't hurt after all that.
 
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