All NY State Interns (APA sites) were terminated this week due to budget cuts

[AlaskanJustin]

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My point exactly. Employers throw all sorts of junk into contracts, and people incorrectly assume what is written is actually enforceable. In my previous career I had multiple instances where I challenged an employment contract (and won) because the clauses were not enforcable under state law. I'm actually two for two in fighting employment contracts. 😀

I wonder if "undue hardship" could be argued in this case. Undue Hardship gets argued all the time in employment law, though it typically is the employer challenging a ruling. I'm curious to see if the same concept can be applied here. I also wonder if they could argue that they state didn't take reasonable steps to ensure funding, and that notification about the possibility of a funding cut was not sufficiently disclosed prior to execution of the contract. Eh, just my 2 cents as an Armchair Lawyer.

Would be thrown out before you could say obje..... In all seriousness though, undue hardship is very hard to argue, particularly because there is no evidence of hardship. Not to mention, undue implies just that, whereas a state attorney would easily argue that due to economic strain the choice was inevitable and would point to other layoffs and the slippery slope a decision in the favor of the plaintiff would cause. This again is why this is such a hard argument.

I wonder if a lawyer would even take this case? ACLU has no purview on a case like this, maybe APA or APPIC would hire a lawyer, but no personal attorney would take this case because what is the best case of settlement? Interns lay no (or minimal) claim to income lost? And imagine trying to argue a mental strife argument? Geeeeyyaaaa!

And as to the latter argument, I think it IS sufficiently disclosed to ALL state employees, including interns whom are hired as state employees at the time of start of internship.

It really sucks what happened to the interns, but unfortunately it was entirely within the purview of the state (as outrageously unfair it is). The state was thinking that 22 interns at 20k (minimum) a year gives you 440k a year, not much but it ads up and its an easy cut based on seniority.

 

[aventurine]

I think it IS sufficiently disclosed to ALL state employees, including interns whom are hired as state employees at the time of start of internship.

It's not sufficiently disclosed unless it's disclosed prior to the time that interns need to submit their rankings for the match.

The start of internship is too late for interns to make other plans.

 

[wigflip]

I 've seen a number of contracts over the years, and it's pretty standard for whomever has more power to put something ridiculous in. If you don't have the power to counter-negotiate (your own lawyer, agent) you sign the thing and cross your fingers, because what other choice do you have? Contract law exists because people break or dispute contracts.

I doubt any of the affected interns are bothering to take advice from this thread at this point (didn't OP drop out pretty quickly, perhaps after being chastised for "hyperbole"?), but I don't think a visit to a lawyer would be a complete waste of time.

 

[2012PhD]

I 've seen a number of contracts over the years, and it's pretty standard for whomever has more power to put something ridiculous in. If you don't have the power to counter-negotiate (your own lawyer, agent) you sign the thing and cross your fingers, because what other choice do you have? Contract law exists because people break or dispute contracts.

I doubt any of the affected interns are bothering to take advice from this thread at this point (didn't OP drop out pretty quickly, perhaps after being chastised for "hyperbole"?), but I don't think a visit to a lawyer would be a complete waste of time.

Law suits have been won for ridiculous things in our country! I think these interns have a good shot at fighting this from a legal perspective based on the contract and the fact that they are prevented from finishing their educational requirements, including damages for 2 years of lost income.

 

[cara susanna]

Where's psychmama (sp?) when we need some legal input? 😉

 

[futureapppsy2]

Our DCT sent an email saying that this sets a dangerous precedent. If other states hear about this, they may think that cutting psych interns is a good way to handle budget issues.

That's really scary... I didn't think of it that way.

Hadn't thought of that. *shuuders* 🙁

 

[aagman01]

The cuts in NY state went well beyond interns. Interns were only a minuscule number regarding the positions. They were a part of all non-permanent positions that were cut. Saying other states will target intern positions as a source of savings seems silly to me. Looking at the situation in its whole, do state governments know or care about psych interns? Am I off base?

Hadn't thought of that. *shuuders* 🙁

 

[wigflip]

The cuts in NY state went well beyond interns. Interns were only a minuscule number regarding the positions. They were a part of all non-permanent positions that were cut. Saying other states will target intern positions as a source of savings seems silly to me. Looking at the situation in its whole, do state governments know or care about psych interns? Am I off base?

Given the above, I wonder if the interns are making any effort to fight their terminations alongside the many other state workers. I'm thinking political coalition building in addition to a lawsuit, not instead of one.

 

[aventurine]

The cuts in NY state went well beyond interns. Interns were only a minuscule number regarding the positions. They were a part of all non-permanent positions that were cut. Saying other states will target intern positions as a source of savings seems silly to me. Looking at the situation in its whole, do state governments know or care about psych interns? Am I off base?

No, you're not off-base.

 

[thepug]

No, you're not off-base.

And you believe in UFOs.

 

[aventurine]

And you believe in UFOs.

What is with the personal attack? Interns were not targeted specifically. They were part of a larger classification of non-permanent employees targeted for layoffs--twenty-two people out of nearly 3,500. Office of Mental Health was hardest hit, with the most layoffs of any agency. Bad situation all around.

 

[aagman01]

Nevermind...............................................................................................................................................................

What is with the personal attack? Interns were not targeted specifically. They were part of a larger classification of non-permanent employees targeted for layoffs--twenty-two people out of nearly 3,500. Office of Mental Health was hardest hit, with the most layoffs of any agency. Bad situation all around.

 

[thepug]

What is with the personal attack? Interns were not targeted specifically. They were part of a larger classification of non-permanent employees targeted for layoffs--twenty-two people out of nearly 3,500. Office of Mental Health was hardest hit, with the most layoffs of any agency. Bad situation all around.

I'm so sorry. I misread your post and thought you said they were off base. I sincerely apologize.

 

[aventurine]

No worries.

 

[aventurine]

From PEF:

The New York State Public Employees Federation (PEF) reached agreement with the state today on a revised contract that better meets the needs of our members.

The revised agreement will be presented to the union's Executive Board on Monday, October 17. If approved by the board, the state will delay the effective date of the layoff notices that have already gone out to November 4. This will allow time for a membership ratification vote. If approved and ratified it will preserve the jobs of 3,496 PEF members.

The new agreement is a four year contract and now includes reimbursement for the 9 furloughs days payable at the end of the agreement.

"The changes we were able to obtain under this revised agreement address many of the concerns raised by our members," said PEF President Ken Brynien.

"If the agreement is approved by our executive board and ratified by the full membership the jobs of 3,496 members will be saved," said Brynien.

The revised agreement also includes changes to the productivity enhancement program which will allow our members greater opportunity to use vacation time to offset health insurance costs. These changes are revenue neutral for the state.

The four year deal calls for no salary increases for years 2011, 2012 and 2013. A salary increase of 2 percent is included for 2014. The lump sum payment that was included in the earlier tentative agreement would be exchanged to reimburse furlough days.

"The ratification of this agreement will demonstrate that our members are willing to sacrifice to save the jobs of 3,496 of their coworkers and preserve the level of service to taxpayers," Brynien added. PEF's Executive Board will meet at the Desmond Hotel in Colonie at 1 pm on Monday, October 17.

Hopefully, the union will vote to ratify the contract, and both layoffs and threats to the internship programs in the coming years will be averted.

 

[Augu27]

A former classmate of mine was on internship last year in New England and something similar happened at her site. The state cut finding for mental health care, and the center where she worked subsequently lost funding mid-way through the internship year. The directors of the clinic decided to cut the internship and fire the supervisors for the next training year. Interns who had already been promised placements were notified that they would no longer have an internship for the 2011-2012 year. The site was immediately threatened with lawsuits from APPIC and others. Once legal action was mentioned, the directors panicked and were suddenly able to come up with the money to continue the internship and re-hire the supervisors. The clinic director claimed ignorance about the binding nature of the APPIC contract.

This site also failed to inform interns prior to arriving that they would be the primary clinicians for an entire department with supervisors only present sporadically. Workplace conditions throughout the year were unacceptable both physically (unsafe and unsanitary) and psychologically (workplace gossip, favoritism, unequal distribution of work, inadequate support, and unhelpful and belittling clinical supervisors.)

Needless to say, the workplace morale was largely influenced by the budget cuts, threats to job security, and longstanding organizational dysfunction, which likely influenced many of the unacceptable work conditions. But when an organization is on the brink of collapse, it is an unfair environment for a young trainee to be sent in to. While the interns at this site had solidarity, it was impossible for them not to be marginalized within the organization. The doctoral programs were notified of the situation but had limited ability to intervene. Instead of a challenging and rewarding training year, the interns at this site had to focus on surviving a horrible and unprofessional work environment and just finishing out the year. After the directors decided to continue the internship, the incident was swept under the rug and the entire thing became very hush hush.

It is completely unacceptable that a requirement for doctoral graduation in clinical psychology is to pick up one's entire life and move to an unfamiliar locale for what has become at some sites a year-long lesson in unhealthy workplace dynamics and alienation, while working for pennies. And on top of it all, as has happened in NY, to have no guarantee that the placement is even secure is utterly unconscionable.

I would encourage New York interns to take every legal action possible to demand that their rights be respected and that agreements are upheld. APA as a whole needs to re-examine the internship requirement and come up with a new way of doing things that will better serve our students who deserve high caliber training during their final year of doctoral education.

 

[AlaskanJustin]

From PEF:

Hopefully, the union will vote to ratify the contract, and both layoffs and threats to the internship programs in the coming years will be averted.

Um... thanks for the info but... is that an umbrella claim? I ask because interns do not pay union dues and are therefore not supported by the union? I wonder if it will be treated similar to my old gov position, I was in limbo somewhere between being contracted and being an employeee, I think interns are in the same boat so I would wonder if this would apply to them or if they will still be SOL

 

[ForensicNeuro]

Union dues were automatically taken out of our stipend and you couldn't opt out of that...but we were given the choice of whether to join the union or not. I can't imagine anyone not joining since the dues were taken out anyway.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Union dues were automatically taken out of our stipend and you couldn't opt out of that...but we were given the choice of whether to join the union or not. I can't imagine anyone not joining since the dues were taken out anyway.

I have sat through multiple Union pitches at different hospitals, and I was always told we weren't allowed to join.

 

[futureapppsy2]

workplace gossip, favoritism, unequal distribution of work

Not to be snarky, but don't *all* workplaces have those to some degree?

 

[Augu27]

Not to be snarky, but don't *all* workplaces have those to some degree?

Are you implying that we should accept this sort of work environment for our interns?

I believe that the post outlined pretty major injustices beyond the few phrases you chose to focus on.

Hopefully we can all agree that we must demand a higher standard. Accepting mediocrity will allow these types of sites to think they can get away with cutting internships with no notice and treating trainees badly.

APA and APPIC need to take a long hard look at this problem and begin making serious changes to the internship process.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Are you implying that we should accept this sort of work environment for our interns?

I believe that the post outlined pretty major injustices beyond the few phrases you chose to focus on.

Hopefully we can all agree that we must demand a higher standard. Accepting mediocrity will allow these types of sites to think they can get away with cutting internships with no notice and treating trainees badly.

APA and APPIC need to take a long hard look at this problem and begin making serious changes to the internship process.

No, no, not at all! I agree that what the site did was egregious and that those definitely sound like worse working conditions than "typical." I guess what I was saying was that gossip, favoritism, etc., seem to be standard in workplaces in general (and I've honestly really, really liked or even loved the people and places I've worked with and at, so this isn't bitterness at all). It just seems like there's going to be some degree of gossip and favoritism in any group of people by way of human nature. Of course, it can rise to really unhealthy levels, and that's different and not okay.

I definitely agree that interns deserve to work in a healthy environment and not have their funding or positions threatened and that APPIC should take action to ensure this. 🙂

 

[aventurine]

Um... thanks for the info but... is that an umbrella claim? I ask because interns do not pay union dues and are therefore not supported by the union? I wonder if it will be treated similar to my old gov position, I was in limbo somewhere between being contracted and being an employee, I think interns are in the same boat so I would wonder if this would apply to them or if they will still be SOL

Cuomo's stated intention to lay off 3500 workers was explicitly contingent on whether or not the union members ratified the agreed-upon contract. It's not about the union helping the interns; it's about Cuomo agreeing to rescind all of the layoffs if the contract is approved by PEF members.

Of course, there is still a chance that the SAGE commission report could lead to consolidation or closure of certain underperforming clinics and other facilities in the future, though I really do suspect this would be less likely to affect interns at the major psychiatric centers.

I interned with the state some years back, and I could swear I joined the union. I'm not sure about the state, I know, though, that some other unions do not represent you for something like six to twelve months.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

This just popped up on my APAGS Facebook link!

"The cuts to New York State Psychology Interns have been averted! Great news! A letter from NY Office Of Mental Health Commissioner Michael Hogan to APPIC stated that the office will continue to support the interns through the balance of their internship! Thank you to EVERYONE who sent messages or forwarded the action alert to NY colleagues. Your efforts were INVALUABLE in this action. YAY!!!"

 

[FadedC]

That's great news, although I wonder what the status of those internship sites will be in future years.

 

[PerhapsMaybeOk]

This just popped up on my APAGS Facebook link!

"The cuts to New York State Psychology Interns have been averted! Great news! A letter from NY Office Of Mental Health Commissioner Michael Hogan to APPIC stated that the office will continue to support the interns through the balance of their internship! Thank you to EVERYONE who sent messages or forwarded the action alert to NY colleagues. Your efforts were INVALUABLE in this action. YAY!!!"

excellent

 

[aventurine]

That's great news, although I wonder what the status of those internship sites will be in future years.

Much will depend on whether the revised contract is ratified later this week.

 

[aventurine]

Apparently, NY State (I am referring to the state government system and NOT any other public or private settings) will be eliminating most of its internship sites after this year. In the NYC area, I believe the only remaining sites will be Manhattan Psychiatric, Queens Children's, and Pilgrim. There is another upstate, in Albany (can't recall the name).

Please check before submitting applications to any other NY State government site.

It's unfortunate news, especially as there is already a shortage of internship positions.