- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,827
- Reaction score
- 5,612
use search button. But be warned that most of the threads on CSSP and professional schools in general are pretty ugly...
Alliant International University's Ph.D program?
- Thread starter ExpressYourself
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2006
- Messages
- 22,663
- Reaction score
- 4,993
MOD NOTE: A quick search turned up a bunch of threads, with the most recent one from a week ago. Please do a quick search before posting. I'm going to merge your thread with an existing one. -t4c
I haven't personally been to Alliant, but reputation-wise in California, I heard they are much easier to get into than schools like UCLA, a killer on your finances, and that their Ph.D. program takes it easier on their students than other universities because the school is a professional school.
However a guy that I know who's going to the SF campus absolutely loves it, says he's getting great experience in a psychiatric hospitals in the bay area, but needs to rely on his parents for finances.
However a guy that I know who's going to the SF campus absolutely loves it, says he's getting great experience in a psychiatric hospitals in the bay area, but needs to rely on his parents for finances.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 31
- Reaction score
- 34
Ok.....Im sad to say this but Im going to have to retract what I had previously posted about Alliant....
Sure, everything I wrote was what the faculty told us over and over....and what they scared us with...(you must go to APA internship!!!)
But the more im in the program, the more i realize that what people in this site say about the school....sadly, is true.
I am now in my third month of the program, and what I thought were "adjustment" issues, are really problems with the school. Just in the past couple of weeks I have been given assignments which were never discussed, or taught in any of the classes we have had. In essence, we are to teach ourselves the most important aspects of practice (case discussions, treatment plans etc).
Regarding the practicum we are supposed to do, most, if not all first year students are complaining about the horrible sites we are given. Most of us are sitting around literally doing nothing, not even filing or office work, and some even stop showing up because its a total waste of time.
SO basically.....if you can get to a better school...please do so. I am now really looking to transfer to a school that has better reputation. There is a reason for this, so don't dismiss people saying is not a good idea (much like i did!! 🙁 )
Sure, everything I wrote was what the faculty told us over and over....and what they scared us with...(you must go to APA internship!!!)
But the more im in the program, the more i realize that what people in this site say about the school....sadly, is true.
I am now in my third month of the program, and what I thought were "adjustment" issues, are really problems with the school. Just in the past couple of weeks I have been given assignments which were never discussed, or taught in any of the classes we have had. In essence, we are to teach ourselves the most important aspects of practice (case discussions, treatment plans etc).
Regarding the practicum we are supposed to do, most, if not all first year students are complaining about the horrible sites we are given. Most of us are sitting around literally doing nothing, not even filing or office work, and some even stop showing up because its a total waste of time.
SO basically.....if you can get to a better school...please do so. I am now really looking to transfer to a school that has better reputation. There is a reason for this, so don't dismiss people saying is not a good idea (much like i did!! 🙁 )
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 250
- Reaction score
- 10
Not all professional schools are bad; in fact, many are apa accredited and their students get apa internships (which is all that matters).
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,827
- Reaction score
- 5,612
No, thats certainly not all that matters. Reputation of program, resulting debt level, quality (not quantity) of supervised practicum experience, research exposure/opportunities, etc all have great impact and obviously need to be considered. APA accredited internship match rates is but one variable for students to consider. Try reading over the numerous points made by many in the proceeding 2 pages of this thread (and others on the topic).
Last edited:
I am currently a student at Alliant. I just completed my first year. Let me make a few corrections. It is not Harvard, doesn't pretend to be. However, CSPP is APA approved. In fact, the president of Alliant is a former president of APA, and the school is non-profit. CSPP was founded in 1966, I believe, by the California Psychological Association. Their clinical program is fairly rigorous.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
Holy dead thread Batman!
You need to read up on the issues of APA acred....MINIMAL standard and doesn't make a program worthy of charging 200k for a degree that doesnt pay well.
"Non-profit"..El Predidente of Alliant makes nearly $400,000!!!
This is a common misconception. I think clinically oriented students in university based programs get at least this amount and variety of training in the NYC area. I am finishing my degree at a university based program and I started my clinical training my first year in our clinic. By the time i applied for internship, I had close to 5 years of clinical training with most populations and in 5 different settings, total of 3,100 hours or so. I also had 800 hours of mostly individual supervision over the years. I have done intensive practicums at a community clinic, VA medical center, college counseling center, CBT Institute, addiction treatment center, and neuropsychological evaluations at a hospital. My fellow collegues at fordham, yeshiva, TC columbia etc. PhD programs have had similar and intense clinical training. The norm around here is to do 4 practicums before applying to internship.
My point is that you can get very thorough and intensive clinical training with a PhD or PsyD from a university based program, especially if you pursue these opportunities. Plus, you are more likely to get an APA internship, receive mentoring and graduate with significantly less debt (or no debt) from a reputable university.
Yikes. How does anything that you mentioned above relate to the quality and reputation of the program among psychologists in the field?
Since when does founding date equate with quality? Devry University was established in 1931, does that mean that it provides better technical training than a degree from stanford?
Non-profit doesn't mean anything about quality. They are still a for profit professional school. Non-profit status means that they are exempt from corporate and income taxes so its better for them.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
that was a while back that I posted that 2012. 😱
Alot has happened since then. One might say I have changed my tune purely because of the financial abuses of the pro-school set up.
However, I could argue that good pro-schools provide better clinical training then UNi-based PhDs.
hahah 🙂
Sometimes i think there is so much information posted on these threads that the overall message may get lost. We psychologists examine everything from multiple perspectives.
It def. sounds like you got excellent training aequiveritas, but i also wonder how much of that is based on your overall assertiveness, hard work and persistence? Is the rest of your cohort doing as well as you? I think that someone like you who takes initiative and is persistent (i'm assuming this from other posts) would do well in a less than optimal setting?
What evidence do you have that pro-schools have better clinical training than university based PhD or PsyD? I think the specific clinical training you get depends on how well you are at securing a good practicum so that really depends on the student.
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2011
- Messages
- 22
- Reaction score
- 0
While I can't make a blanket statement about this, I know that at my current practicum placement (a VA) we have interns who do not have nearly as much clinical experience as some of the practicum students. Some of the interns have only worked at their school clinics. They obviously had more to supplement their CV (strong research backgrounds) to make them competitive at highly sought after VA intern positions. However, the point is that there are professional schools that DO provide their students with more clinical experiences than university students.
In fact, some of the university students who are on practicum with me told me that their schools are altering their model to allow for their students to have outside practicum placements (apparently, until very recently, they had only been able to work at their school clinics). Why are the universities doing this? Because, according to the university students, students from their schools are not matching to internship for the first time in a long time, and administrators at their schools see the students' lack of diverse clinical experiences as the primary reason for this.
I don't think this is the norm. I have yet to meet a university based PhD student who spent 4 years only in a school clinic in the NYC area. If these students want research or academic careers, then it wouldn't matter if they get the same amount of clinical training. Training in a university based clinic can also be better training than a hospital/external setting. I've seen very diverse clients with serious mental illness in our university clinic (similar to a community mental health population). In addition, our university clinic has specialized clinics that focus on couples/family therapy, childhood anxiety, DBT, and assessment. If you want to get the best training in DBT, getting supervision from Linehan or one of her students in a university clinic would be a much better training experience for DBT than any hospital setting IMO.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
Thanks for the accolades!
Psy.D programs are going to be applied anywhere, whether at a university or a pro-school as the purpose of the degree is to train clinicians for practice.
University PhD students, however, are a mixed bag; it really depends on what program you come from. I know people from Kansas who have great training. However, I know people from SUNY Albany who are perhaps the most incomptetent clinicians I have ever met (and it seems to be a function of the myopic and minimal training they receive).
What I like about traditional research-based programs is the intellectual caliper of the students. In a cerebral sense you really are the cream of the crop. What I like about the pro-school PhD is the training mixed with research. I just wish there was a way to combine them in a manner that works and is affordable. In one man's experience, the pro-school Psy.D is an awful idea and doesn't combine either of the virtues above.
Yet if I had to choose over again, I would never have gone pro-school. Never. The cost is criminal.
The best route one can take IMO is to go funded and then go analytic institute for the real deal holifield.
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
- Messages
- 469
- Reaction score
- 29
A disappointingly muddled post, AV (had you just paid a loan installment? 😉). Which two virtues? You seem to be juggling three -- cost, clinical training, and research training. In this student's experience it is not accurate (therefor unfair, unhelpful, etc.) to broadly blast all professional school PsyD programs as lacking any combination of these virtures, their students as intellectually lesser than, etc. There are different ideologies at play when it comes to judging the validity and overall merit of research paradigms, relations between clinical and research information, the measurement of clinical outcomes, etc. That said, I hold to the belief that "Research is not a mirror of reality, but a practical attitude towards people" (Joseph Catalano).
As for cost, some can make it work.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
haha. Alas...my loans have depleted my approximation of objectivity.
I don't want to take aim at each and every pro-school psy.d student because there are smart people in any venue to falsify absolute statements.
Yet I struggle to think of a pro-school Psy.D program that is reputable. Perhaps Chicago school (Chi location...not orange county). Perhaps Palo Alto (previously PGSP).
There are smarties anywhere; yet I have observed a depletion of admission standards and lax training. What I'm concerned about is the type of mind that is admitted into the realm of psychology. I simply see pro-school Psy.Ds as the largest violators in this area, letting in people who should have no business in clinical/philosophical veins.
Research based programs just let in less inept people...and usually inept in a different way.
Look at it this way: I at least want people who have the intellectual tool-sets to think in deep; complex ways to enter into "psychology". Pro-school psy.ds let in huge flocks of people. Some of them aren't playing with a full tool-set, and charging them 200k to boot. This is not fair to them or to society.
BTW, I don't set my cohort apart that far. Pro-school PhDs also let in large flocks of inept along with the adept. It is simply a matter of degree.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
Dude...come on...do a google search for that one
I have. I haven't found what I am looking for. Just joined this site today. Learning everything about applying to a masters program in a short time. I read about match ratings. I just don't understand what it means exactly. I wanted to know the different tiers of how psych grad schools are ranked.
I am new at this. Be gentle with me.
I am new at this. Be gentle with me.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,563
- Reaction score
- 58
Every program that is APA accredited is required to post this information somewhere on their website. I found Pepperdine's here
http://gsep.pepperdine.edu/doctorate-clinical-psychology/statistics/
Over the past 7 years, they have placed 66% of applicants in APA accredited internships. It's better than the rates of several professional schools, but isn't exactly stellar.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,563
- Reaction score
- 58
Actually, didn't you just start a thread about looking at Masters programs? Masters programs aren't APA accredited, nor do those students go through the internship match process. Those are for doctoral programs only. You might get better information posting in the forum for Masters level psych students.
Thank you so much. I finally understand what match rating means. I am just a bit anxious because I just recently decided on a career change. And I am applying for the Spring. It's just a lot on my plate. It's all a bit overwhelming. I appreciate everyone's help.
Hi,
from what i've been reading, many of you are saying that this school is not worth it because of the amount of debt that someone will be in after attending. What if somebody got a military scholarship? The army pays for tuition and a monthly stipend for living. You will also have to work for them after you graduate for 3 year but that guarantee's you a job so you do not have to worry about an internship. Would this be a good way to go about it? I would like to hear your opinions. Please and thank you
from what i've been reading, many of you are saying that this school is not worth it because of the amount of debt that someone will be in after attending. What if somebody got a military scholarship? The army pays for tuition and a monthly stipend for living. You will also have to work for them after you graduate for 3 year but that guarantee's you a job so you do not have to worry about an internship. Would this be a good way to go about it? I would like to hear your opinions. Please and thank you
I think MarkP and erg923 can best answer that question. However, also do a quick search on these boards. The topic of getting your education paid for by the military has been discussed in great detail before. Not sure about how it relates to a professional school.
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2012
- Messages
- 1
- Reaction score
- 1
Since I have taught at most of the school in San Diego as an adjunct at some time during my years here, and know Alliant pretty well, I thought I would try to answer some of the questions here on differences between PsyD and PhD programs.
At many professional schools the two programs aren't actually that different. At Alliant SD they are very very different, so choose wisely. Many of the PhD faculty do their best not to teach PsyD students, and a good number of the basic classes (like statistics, methods) are taught separately. I don't think you have to really worry about the quality of the faculty in either program. They are very positively evaluated by the students, and unlike mainstream schools, Alliant needs to teach well to retain students (who are paying high tuition). These are the differences I noticed.
1. The students. Much easier to get into the PsyD program -- that will be a negative to some and a positive to others. And no, you can't easily transfer from PsyD to PhD, but you can transfer the other way.
2. The research training. PhD students do a dissertation, and therefore have to learn to form a question and write a publishable piece. PsyD students do a "project" which can be a qualitative and just describe a few people. Therefore, PsyD students won't necessarily know much about research. I personally think that's a down side to general employability, but if one absolutely knows that one wishes to be in full time private practice, it may be your choice. This requirement means that the PhD professors have research careers themselves, but they are also required to have a clinical specialty. In my estimation, about quarter to half of the PhD faculty are acceptable, community-college type profs who teach well and do an occasional research project, and about 50-75% are nationally or internationally known scholars in their field. That means you can get trained in research if you want it. The PsyD faculty aren't researchers, but many are clinicians who have written descriptive texts about some specialized area of therapy. PsyD students have the option of doing the research training, but they don't have to do so.
The clinical training. The PsyD and PhD students have pretty much the same requirements for clinical training, with the exception that the PsyD students can take some course that are nonempirical that the PhD students don't get credit for. The PhD students are generally trained in empirically based therapies only. Therefore, those who want to specialize in integrative therapies that are not empirical have to go PsyD. PhD's can be trained in mindfulness and biofeedback though.
How long does it take? 3-6 years typically, but the PsyD's finish on the average a year faster.
What do students do later? PsyD students work in clinics, hospitals, jails, prisons, and a lot do private practice. PhD students do those things, but some also choose to be professors or researchers. I'm told that alumni surveys say that most of the PhD students are doing multiple things -- some research, some teaching, some clinical work.
If you have specific questions I'll try to find out the answers for you.
CalyProf
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
If you include Psychodynamic in your definition of empirically-based, I agree. I took a lot of dynamic. It is true that we didn't have to do the integrative bologna or listen to Don Eulert drone on about Native American healing rituals, their relevance to Jungian Archtypes and so on, when he has never completed a single minute of therapy in his otherwise colorful life.
I agree with mostly all of ur post, as a recent San Diego Ph.D. graduate.
I took the occasional class on the Psy.D side when I need a therapy elective etc. My real qualm was that there just seemed to be no intellectual curiosity about the material, whether it was theoretical and case-related or research. From my experience most people in Psy.D. classes at Alliant were like bumps on a log in class; seemed to simply be waiting for it to be over.
I don't think the Ph.D. side was necessarily a night and day contrast, but it was certainly a contrast. Our classes were ringing with questions and ideas for research. I think the one area that really upsets me on a personal level is the stark difference that exists between the two cohorts, and in the end there is almost no recognizable difference to the consuming public. Each get to call themselves doctor. This bothers me because the doctoral dissertation is supposed to be a period of life where you have to prove that your mind is up to a serious scholarly pursuit; is capable of making connections on a complex level. My problem with the Psy.D. at lower tear schools is that the dissertation phase is more like an extended project. The do a review of the lit, find about 5-10 people who'd be willing to sit down with them, ask some questions that they just thought about in relation to the literature...seriously-no kidding, and then write about the themes after they'e "reached saturation" of content. Each title is the "Experience" of this or that type of person. It really bothers me. Moreover, the definitive line in the sand between Ph.Ds and Psy.Ds is being muddled even within people who are supposed to know the difference. It seems now that the two degrees are viewed as a sort of life choice, where one could have gone to either. That may be true when someone is accepted to Rutgers Psy.D but probably not many others. As an anecdote, a Psy.D once exclaimed to me "I wish I had done a quantitative dissertation...they're so much easier!" I threw up on que.
So in a nutshell, where there are general differences in Psy.D and Ph.D in most cases, there are major differences at Alliant because of the financial interest they have in producing large cohorts.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
- Messages
- 827
- Reaction score
- 16
😱 I'm jumping into this thread just to comment on this anecdote. People don't know what they don't know, eh? I've seen a lot of this myself. Most notably, a peer of mine, who was applying to doctoral programs along with me (and ended up getting zero responses from upper tiered PhD programs in clinical psych, and enrolled in a professional school instead), said she had research experience in the form of a thesis. When I once commented that my master's thesis (a quantitative experimental study) was approaching 60-something pages, she quipped, "My masters thesis was 75 pages and I wrote the whole thing in two days, just in time to graduate." As if to say, "So there!" Um, okay.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2008
- Messages
- 643
- Reaction score
- 10
The Psy.D.s at Alliant are notorious for finishing their dissertations in a rush just ahead of graduation, because the main purpose of it all is to walk on stage, right?
I've known so, so many who have finished the whole second half of the diss in about a month, defending, and then having no problems in the defense because....at Alliant Psy.D they got rid of the 4th hostile reader and instead have a freakin "discussion" of the project with only the committee. Amazing
Sadly, this is not only Alliant, and represents a progressive movement in the Psy.D. training.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2012
- Messages
- 276
- Reaction score
- 52
Just remember that its not all Psy.D.'s, and its not only Rutgers that does a good job of training Psy.D.'s. I'm doing a quantitative dissertation, and leading a research study (that of course is grant funded) that is affiliated with a large research hospital. Even future Psy.D.'s like me throw up when we hear about "research projects" instead of real dissertations. I think programs like that should lose their accreditation.
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
- Messages
- 827
- Reaction score
- 16
And then to prance around discussing such a dissertation, as if it were a badge of honor...UGH.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2012
- Messages
- 922
- Reaction score
- 148
That's sad.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,563
- Reaction score
- 58
What did you write your kindergarten thesis on? Mine was on the microaggressions created by the "Indian Red" Crayola crayon shade.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2008
- Messages
- 8,222
- Reaction score
- 8,610
Haha! I was wondering if crim84 went to one of those fancy private kindergartens in NYC or something.
